Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby suryag » 11 Aug 2019 07:10

Why would you want to know an operational detail ?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 11 Aug 2019 14:36

We lost a MKI over Assam Friday. Both pilots safe.

We had very few operational losses in the MKI until like five years ago but things had gotten worrisome since -- at least five recent crashes that I can recall. Wearing down of airframes and parts?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby YashG » 11 Aug 2019 15:02

manjgu wrote:1) is the huge loiter time/range of Su30. this is a BIG plus if the ballon goes up. the Pakistan lacks depth and i believe its air bases will be under lot of stress in a war situation...similarly indian bases close to border will be under stress. Ability to take off from rear bases and be in the fight is a big plus. PAF has no such luxury. 2) if its opens its war frequencies..with its capabilities its like a mini awacs. u will not always get AWACS to direct ops in a real situation, then this capability is v useful 3) on Feb 27, PAF fired 5 AMRAAMS and ran,but in real war they will not have this luxury. they will have to stay in the fight for posing real danger to Su30 where the range of Su30 radars will be crucial. The range of AMRAAMs is not such a big factor as people tend to think. its about relative goemetry, energy, pilotage of adversaries. 4) the loadout of the SU is phenomenal,giving it the ability to carry more missiles, bombs etc which is v useful in a real war situation coupled with loiter time, it can switch from one area to another and stay in the fight. 5) the electronics on it plus the 2 man crew is a big plus. 6) soon u will hear the story of avenger1 who though outnumbered held PAF at bay. His story will come out soon. PAF is scared of SU30 big time.


Since this was in context of PAF - so i must point out that brochure plated loads of SU (8.1 tons) and f16(7.7 tons) are nearly same.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby mody » 12 Aug 2019 17:01

Karan M wrote:
mody wrote:The only problem is that the Russian EW suite for the MKI is no good. It was either found to be too heavy, restricting the performance of the aircraft and maybe also found to be not as good, as western suites that we have experience with, with the M2K.


Is this chai-wallah info or from discussions on the net? If the latter, incorrect. The SAP-518 has weight issues which come into play, when only real heavy payload is carried (not usual A2A loads).

Plus the IAF has perfected and loves the combo of first firing the R-27 SARH followed by R-27T or R-73E as a follow on shot against incoming enemy aircrafts. The kill probability is near 100%.


Source?


Karan The SAP-518 is the original Russian pod or the improved Indian version? From net discussions, it always seemed that the Russian pod was too heavy. Maybe it was not suitbale only when carrying heavy payloads for air to ground operations. But there were reports of Indian improvements having been carried out, which made the EW pod much better and easier to use.

With regards to the BVR missile use scenario, again a bit of chaiwala info/chatter, but atleast for the Mig-29s, IAF preferred to use the R-27 SARH with R-73 in combo and the results were very good. From what I have heard, Mig 29 pilots claimed that this was much better then using only the Super530D with the M2K. The kill probaility of single BVR missiles fired off from more then 40 Kms away, is not that great worldwide, when fired against a near equaly matched platform. However, as per some chaiwallahs, when paired with a good WVR missile like the R-73, the probabilty of scoring a hit increases quite a lot.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 12 Aug 2019 17:27

Interesting you say that, this kind of gives us more incite as what could have happened on 27-Feb-19, things are becoming clear, post AMRAAM firing and scooting by Mangla dam F-16's on SU-30, the 2nd group of F-16's came for LGB attack, the F-16D in order to Break lock by SU-30 MKI dives low, Mig 21 Bison goes for the kill crossing the LOC and scores the kill with R-73, the the IAF control room feels that things have escalated now and ask the Mig 21 Bison and SU 30 MKI to stop going hot and turn back- this is where the flaw happens, one of the F-16's at this point of time turns around and fires an AMRAAM- based on the bits and pieces of inflow put out this what I could make out- might be wrong here.

I feel where the mistake happens (again I am onlee an armchair chaiwallah expert here) is after the F-16 kill, the Mig 21 Bisons and Su 30 MKI's should have fired of R-77's to disperse the F-16's while the Wing Commander got back- it would have wasted these missiles but while the F-16's were avoiding these would not have been able to target the Mig 21 Bison.

Again I will never have to answer to Superiors regarding escalations and why valuable missiles were wasted etc., once the first F-16 went down, may be the IAF control room(remember they were worried about escalation) about did not anticipate anther F-16's turning around and targeting the MIg 21.

One things for sure the first media reports were wrong regarding stating that IAF was shocked about Amraam range and F-16's got the better of SU 30 MKI, That wing Commander was launching the R-73 and was immediately hit, from cybersurg videos we know that there was a gap when the MIG 21 turns around after the kill and tries heading back to the LOC before it got shot down, wonder what hapenned to the RWR and why the Phalcon, could not see the other F-16 getting into AMRAAM launch position and ask the other fighters to take action. Then again these were very unusual circumstances in peacetime with instant decision making required.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby MeshaVishwas » 12 Aug 2019 18:37

Flying & Fighting in the MiG-29: Interview with Indian Air Force ‘Fulcrum’ pilot Air Marshal Harish Masand

https://hushkit.net/2019/08/12/flying-f ... asand/amp/

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 12 Aug 2019 21:48

^ Great read. Thanks.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Gyan » 12 Aug 2019 23:11

Or Abhinandan Mig-21 Engine flamed out.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 13 Aug 2019 04:40

AM Masand's articles/interviews are always a joy to read.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 13 Aug 2019 05:42

But remember, always two sides to a story. He doesn't mention the BVR part in a lot of detail. Apparently, that was where the Mirage 2000 did have parity/edge against the MiG-29. The Super 530D + RDM radar + SPJ/EW on the Mirage 2000 were not a slouch at that time, even against the MiG-29s fit.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 13 Aug 2019 05:49

mody wrote:Karan The SAP-518 is the original Russian pod or the improved Indian version? From net discussions, it always seemed that the Russian pod was too heavy. Maybe it was not suitbale only when carrying heavy payloads for air to ground operations. But there were reports of Indian improvements having been carried out, which made the EW pod much better and easier to use.


The net article can be misleading when seen without context.
A representative IAF loadout for instance, has Brahmos on centerline, 2 Tons of Bombs, 6 AAMs and then the 2x SAP pods. You can well imagine the performance of the Flanker with such a warload and that light pods would help.
The SAP pods when used in a light (pure A2A or with light A2A/A2G) load would be Ok. The Russians are flying their Su-30 SMs with similar units.
We are not improving the SAP pod. We are taking our own kit and making our own HBJ pod.

With regards to the BVR missile use scenario, again a bit of chaiwala info/chatter, but atleast for the Mig-29s, IAF preferred to use the R-27 SARH with R-73 in combo and the results were very good. From what I have heard, Mig 29 pilots claimed that this was much better then using only the Super530D with the M2K. The kill probaility of single BVR missiles fired off from more then 40 Kms away, is not that great worldwide, when fired against a near equaly matched platform. However, as per some chaiwallahs, when paired with a good WVR missile like the R-73, the probabilty of scoring a hit increases quite a lot.


Thanks.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Mollick.R » 14 Aug 2019 13:03

Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman to be conferred Vir Chakra
TIMESOFINDIA.COM | Aug 14, 2019, 10.26 AM IST

NEW DELHI: Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman will be conferred with the Vir Chakra , India's third highest wartime medal, on Independence Day for shooting down a Pakistan F-16 during the February 27 air-skirmish between the Indian Air Force and Pakistan Air Force a day after Balakot strikes.

Sapper Prakash Jadhav, who sacrificed his life in an encounter with terrorists at Kulgam in November 2018, and CRPF Dy Comdt Harshpal Singh will be conferred with Kirti Chakras. Another 14 personnel will be conferred with Shaurya Chakras.
Kirti Chakra and Shaurya Chakra are the second and third highest gallantry medals after Ashoka Chakra during peacetime. Vir Chakra is the third highest gallantry medal after Param Vir Chakra & Maha Vir Chakra in war-time (presence of the enemy).


Indian Air Force’s Squadron Leader Minty Agarwal will be conferred with the Yudh Seva Medal for her role as a fighter controller during the February 27 aerial conflict. The Mirage-2000 pilots who conducted the successful bombing of the main Jaish-e-Mohammed facility at Balakot in Pakistan’s 8/14/2019 Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa province in the pre-dawn air strikes on February 26, in turn, will be awarded with Vayu Sena (gallantry) medals.

Varthaman's name was recommended by the IAF for the gallantry awards annually conferred upon on Independence day.
The 35-year-old Wing Commander was flying a MiG-21 Bison when he shot Pakistan's F-16. Seconds after Varthaman made the historic kill of an F-16 by a MiG-21, his own fighter aircraft was hit by Pakistan's missile and he was forced to eject. He landed on Pakistan's territory and was captured. After staying in Pakistan's captivity for almost 60 hours, the IAF hero was returned to India on March 1.

The February 27 clash took place a day after the Mirage-2000s struck targets in Balakot in response to the Pulwama suicide
attack in Kashmir in which 40 Central Reserve Police Force men were killed on February 14.


https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/wing-commander-abhinandan-varthaman-to-be-conferred-vir-chakra/articleshowprint/70670211.cms

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby naird » 14 Aug 2019 14:25

Very disappointed that none of the Su 30 pilots find any mention on the medal list. From Sameer joshi's account it seemed that they gave an excellent account about themselves. Dodging Amraams and still staying in the game is no mean feat.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 14 Aug 2019 14:35

Ditto! At least one crew should have been awarded. It would have been a perfect rebuttal to PAF's pys-war game too. But then again, IAF simply doesn't get these aspects. :roll:

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby naird » 14 Aug 2019 15:20

Karan M wrote:Ditto! At least one crew should have been awarded. It would have been a perfect rebuttal to PAF's pys-war game too. But then again, IAF simply doesn't get these aspects. :roll:


https://twitter.com/GurungShauryaET/status/1161554800284073984?s=20

Well here is the complete list of IAF personnel getting awards. Not sure if Su 30 pilots are there. But i can see number of Grp Captains in the list for Yudh Seva Medal. I dont believe Grp Captains actually are on the front line during war.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Bhaskar_T » 14 Aug 2019 17:24

Vishnu recounts the day IAF went to collect wreckage of Pakistani Aircraft (Atlantique incident).


When Pakistani Forces Fired Missile At IAF Helicopter I Was On - By Vishnu Som, NDTV.

https://www.ndtv.com/blog/when-pakistani-forces-fired-a-missile-at-the-iaf-helicopter-i-was-flying-in-2085062

"I saw a huge flash at the same level we were flying at. It was just three to four hundred metres away from us."

On August 11, 1999, 38-year-old Squadron Leader Pankaj Vishnoi was at the controls of an Indian Air Force Mi-8 transport helicopter when he came under a missile attack from Pakistani ground forces.

He was flying the trailing chopper in a loose formation of three IAF Mi-8s. There with 50 international journalists in total on board the helicopters. I was one of them.

Squadron Leader Vishnoi, then the commander of the IAF's 119 Helicopter Unit, based in Jamnagar, was in command of my chopper. His first officer was Squadron Leader SP Singh.

We had taken off from Naliya Air Force base in Gujarat and were flying towards the Sir Creek region in the Rann of Kutch to spot the wreckage of a French-built Atlantique maritime reconnaissance aircraft flown by 29 Squadron of the Pakistan Navy.

A day earlier, this Atlantique had breached Indian air space on what the IAF believes was a mission to probe India's defences in the area and gather electronic intelligence.

At 11:17 am on August 10, one of two Indian Air Force MiG 21s which had been scrambled from the Naliya based No.45 Squadron to intercept the Pakistani aircraft locked on and fired a Russian built R-60 air to air missile at the Atlantique. The infrared homing missile flew straight and level to the port (left side) engine of the Pakistani Navy aircraft and exploded. The aircraft went out of control, spiralling down and crashing at about 11:30 am.

All 16 personnel including five officers onboard were killed.

The debris lay on both sides of the International Border in North Gujarat.

Pakistan's information warfare machinery was, typically, quick off the mark. Foreign diplomats were flown to the area and shown the debris of the Atlantique with the point being made that the IAF had intruded into Pakistan airspace to shoot down an unarmed reconnaissance aircraft.

India's attempt to counter Islamabad's account came the next day, a day I should not have survived.

Just four kilometres short of the international border and approximately five minutes flying time from the crash site, all hell broke loose.

"I made the call to the formation," says Vishnoi, who retired many years later as an Air Commodore.

"Hard left, duck down."

Pakistani forces had fired a shoulder-mounted surface-to-air missile at our helicopter, possibly a US-made Stinger or Swedish RBS-70, widely considered some of the most potent weapons of its class in the world.

"There was a flash. I saw it. And there was a smoke plume which was visible for several seconds despite the 20 knot (37 kmph) winds which we were encountering."

What happened next is a vivid memory.

The Mi-8 helicopter dived down. A handful of journalists who were standing at the time fell and had to clamber back onto the benches mounted along the cabin of the Mi-8.

No one had any idea what was happening.

The helicopter itself was rudimentary. A giant fuel drum fixed to the floor of the cabin was plumbed to the engine overhead. The smell of Aviation Turbine Fuel was inescapable.

"All three choppers dropped from 2,000 feet to less than 50 feet."

The terrain all around in the Rann of Kutch area was flat.

We raced away to safety, our mission to spot the wreckage had to be scrapped.

"We raced away at 180 kmph. We couldn't fly any faster." The "clam-shell" doors on the other two Mi-8s in the formation had been removed to allow camera-crew to film. This meant a speed restriction. "I was leading the formation. There was no way, I was going to fly away faster than the other two choppers."

Inside the cabin, I felt we had lost at least one of the two engines on the Mi-8. Were we attempting an emergency landing? Were there serious control issues?

I walked up to the IAF flight-gunner seated in a jump seat outside the cockpit, the door of which was shut.

"What happened?" I asked.

The flight-gunner had a headphone and was on talk-back to the flight-crew inside the cockpit.

"Suspected missile fired," he told me.

It seemed unreal. This was a worst case scenario one reads about.

Less than a month earlier, covering the Kargil war, I had heard accounts from IAF fighter pilots on how they had seen missiles streak past their fighters as they bombed targets. On May 27 that year, an IAF MiG-21 was stuck by a Pakistani surface to air missile. Squadron Leader Ajay Ahuja, the pilot, ejected, only to be captured and killed by Pakistani forces. The following day, an IAF Mi-17 chopper was downed after being struck by several Pakistani Stinger missiles. All four crew members perished.

The threat of Pakistani shoulder-fired surface-to-air missiles was very real. This had been an unbelievably close call.

At Naliya air base, I rushed to re-confirm my news. IAF officers who were a part of our sortie went into a huddle. A short while later, they confirmed the news to the international media. We had been attacked.

I got on to our satellite phone - and dialled in the NDTV office to do a phone-in. I saw Satinder Bindra, then the CNN Bureau Chief in Delhi, do the same.

As I waited patiently for my turn to break the news, I realised that newsroom priorities in Delhi may as well have been from a different planet.

Vikram Chandra was the anchor - his focus, for the large part of that day, was a total solar eclipse, a big global event that day. There were guests in the studio. There was a science lesson on air.

The mood changed abruptly when I did my phone report.

Kargil may have ended with an Indian victory but clearly tensions with Pakistan were still war-like.

For Squadron Leader Pankaj Vishnoi, this had been the second close call in as many days.

A day earlier, within hours of the Pakistan Navy Atlantique having been shot down, he was ordered to fly into the area, spot and collect the debris.

"The wreckage was easy to spot. The area was completely barren flat land."

Categorically denying Pakistani claims that the IAF had flown across the border to pick up debris of the Atlantique, Vishnoi says "we landed on our side. We were about five hundred metres from the border."

A Quick Reaction Team (QRT) of the Indian Air Force quickly moved out of the chopper to pick up debris and load it on to the aircraft.

"I didn't land the helicopter, the ground may have been soft." Hovering a few feet above the ground, Vishnoi waited as the QRT loaded the aircraft.

"We flew to Lakhpat and landed the helicopter. We were ordered to return to the crash site again and pick up more of the wreckage."

Little did Vishnoi know what was in store for him.

"The gap between the first and second sortie to pick up the wreckage would have been just 45 minutes but on the second sorties, there was Medium Machine Gun fire from across the border." Vishnoi had never expected to see Pakistani forces in this remote area.

"There were two people hiding behind a bush and they opened up. I heard the sound. The aircraft was hit."
Unarmed and not authorised to respond with force, Vishnoi rushed back to base.

"One bullet hit the body of the aircraft. It hit the door in the rear and came out the other one. Another bullet hit the trailing edge of one of the tail rotor blades creating a one inch hole."

I spoke to Pankaj Vishnoi, now a retired Air Commodore for the first time on Tuesday, more than 20 years since we had both cheated death along with the other journalists and IAF crew members on the chopper we were flying in.

"Was that your closest call?" I asked Vishnoi.

"This was the closest call for me in all my years in the IAF," he replied.

"But did you know, Vishnu, that of the six pilots on those three Mi-8 helicopters that flew that day, two are dead."

I was stunned.

"Flight Lieutenant R Garg and Flying Officer Vikram Singh, both flying the second chopper in the formation are gone." Both were killed in separate incidents over the next several years.

R Garg was killed in a helicopter accident over the Doda valley in Kashmir and Vikram Singh was among nine IAF personnel killed when two Mi-17 helicopters had a mid-air collission near Jamnagar in September 2012.

There was another pilot we met at Naliya Air Force base that day who also lost his life.

The man who shot down the Atlantique, Squadron Leader Prashant Kumar Bundela died in August 2002, four months after he ejected from a MiG 21. Bundela had landed on his neck and was left paralysed.

I ask Air Commodore Pankaj Vishnoi about these losses.

"These are professional hazards," he says.


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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Anujan » 14 Aug 2019 21:02

The five Mirage 2000 pilots, who had snuck deep into Pakistan-occupied Kashmir (PoK) on the morning of 26 February and struck Jaish-e-Mohammed terror camps in Balakot with Spice 2000 bombs, have been awarded Vayu Sena medals.

Besides, Indian Air Force pilot Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman has got Vir Chakra

IAF has got a total of 13 awards, including eight gallantry awards, for the Balakot strike and for foiling an attempt by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) to hit back on 27 February.

The awardees include Squadron Leader Minty Aggarwal, a female officer, who steered the dog fight over the Nowshera sector and alerted the IAF pilots to the presence of Pakistan’s F-16s with AMRAAM missiles.



https://theprint.in/india/balakot-opera ... ssion=true

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Skanda » 14 Aug 2019 23:06

How did she do that? Can our radars also pick up AMRAMMs mounted on the F16 or was that based on "F16 are capable of carrying AMRAAM, so let me inform the pilots of this possibility?"

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby rajkumar » 15 Aug 2019 02:21

Interview with Squadron Leader Minty Aggarwal....loved the bit when she was laughing at the Paki's over SU-30's and more...


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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 15 Aug 2019 02:51

Skanda wrote:How did she do that? Can our radars also pick up AMRAMMs mounted on the F16 or was that based on "F16 are capable of carrying AMRAAM, so let me inform the pilots of this possibility?"

Pardon this mango abdul for his Lahori logic. But AMRAAM-equipped F-16s are a given, considering the PAF has them in the inventory. So when the IAF detects the F-16, it is understood she will be armed with the AMRAAM. Most air combat today is in the BVR realm onlee.

Just don't do what the PAF did on Feb 27th though. No cockpit discipline whatsoever! Shout Allah-Hu-Akbar in the cockpit, fire multiple AMRAAMs and hope that Allah will guide them to the target. Which madrassa did they learn BVR combat from?

P.S. I have not seen the youtube video above. Perhaps Sqn Ldr Aggarwal explains it in there.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Skanda » 16 Aug 2019 01:01

Rakesh wrote:
Skanda wrote:How did she do that? Can our radars also pick up AMRAMMs mounted on the F16 or was that based on "F16 are capable of carrying AMRAAM, so let me inform the pilots of this possibility?"

Pardon ...

P.S. I have not seen the youtube video above. Perhaps Sqn Ldr Aggarwal explains it in there.


Saw the video. Minty indicates that the electronic signature on the radar screen gives them a clear idea of the type of aircraft. Owing to their training, they know the capabilities of the aircraft and they communicate that information to the pilots. The interview is very good. She is careful not to let out anything sensitive and remains vague on purpose.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 16 Aug 2019 13:50

The interview with the Squadron Leader had a lot of good points like
1) They came to do a lot of Harm
2) F-16 was down
3) There were 24 PAF aircraft there
4) No SU 30 was Hit
What was not covered which Jingos would like but may be higher ups did not wish to disclose
1) Type of ordinance used and launched by the PAF
2) No of AMRAAM's launched by PAF- was SU 30 MKI the target?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 19 Aug 2019 00:32

There was a report recently that it was commn. failure that led to the wingco's downing.He didn't receive the order to return, jammed by the Pakis.Apparently better anti- jamming eqpt. is as usual delayed.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 19 Aug 2019 11:20

I dont think that it is correct, Looking at Squadron Leader interview, the information was put out to all Pilots in the Air, Wing Commander took the initiative, crossed the LOC, got into position locked on to the F-16 and fired the R-73.

From other reports and videos it was while returning that the Amraam hit the Mig 21 2Km from the LOC and unfortunately the wind took a little further into POK while landing. There no communication JAM by Pakis, that is pure propaganda.

I think the only mistake and let us remember we were not officially at war and there Civilian aircraft about, we didn't unleash any of our R-77's or MICA's which would disbursed the other F-16's and let the Wing Commander return. This saved Paki H&D.

The biggest proof is from Ghafoora tweets- First it was 2 IAF aircraft downed, 1 Pilot in hospital and 1 custody and searching for 1 IAF pilot, which later changed to only 1 pilot in custody. We know from reports it took that Wing Commader parachuted at much higher altitude, was first captured by POK locals before going into Pakistani army custody.

All this points to possibly F-16D- with tail no 10801 to 10806 going down with possibly flown by Shahbaz HaiderAli and Hassan Siddiqui, with Wing Commander shot down by Nouman Ali Khan of the PAF.

The F-16 was the advanced 2 seat version which came in with the 2nd pilot acting focusing as WSO on dropping the LGB at the Brigade HQ, this plan was thrawrted by the IAF.

The PAF had 3 plans that day but got lucky with Wing Commander's Mig 21 Bison

1) Down SU-30 MKI with an ambush by coming high fast and launching multiple AMRAAMs in different directions- flopped and SU-30MKI was still in the game

2) Try attacking avenging IAF attacks by using H-4 RAAD and H-2 Raptors on IA Launched by the Mirage V- ROSE upgraded aircraft- which again flopped- PAF probably knew these were not very accurate and required attackign aircraft to guide them while being relatibvely close to these aircraft. Some of these were found by residents in PAF and passed off as IAF attacks on twitter.

3) If the H-2 and H-4 attacks fail to move in with the F-16 D and attack with LGB- this nearly succeeded with providence that there was a tree in the right place.

In all this the most damming aspect which many dont want to focus on- the most common aircraft and politically the best aircraft for the PAF to use- the JF-17 did didly Squat. In fact the Mirage V was preferred to JF-17. The did not spray Sd-10's and PL 12's unlike much more precious AMRAAM's- there lies the story of PAF's closure of airspace and capabilities.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby MeshaVishwas » 19 Aug 2019 12:20

Great news if true.

IAF set to shelve Jaguar engine upgrade, could buy more Su-30 MKIs instead
https://theprint.in/defence/iaf-set-to- ... ad/278687/
-Snehesh Alex Philip

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby hgupta » 19 Aug 2019 15:01

Well we will not be able to replace Jaguars with Su-30s on a one to one basis. And Su-30s may cost more to operate per hour basis. Just to keep our numbers from falling we may have no choice but to go with the upgrades and the-engining if that’s the cheapest option to keep the number of combat squadrons from falling any further more.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Bart S » 19 Aug 2019 15:55

MeshaVishwas wrote:Great news if true.

IAF set to shelve Jaguar engine upgrade, could buy more Su-30 MKIs instead
https://theprint.in/defence/iaf-set-to- ... ad/278687/
-Snehesh Alex Philip

Why not the LCA/MWF? :roll: :x

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_Sharma » 19 Aug 2019 16:37

MeshaVishwas wrote:Great news if true.

IAF set to shelve Jaguar engine upgrade, could buy more Su-30 MKIs instead
https://theprint.in/defence/iaf-set-to- ... ad/278687/
-Snehesh Alex Philip

Sad news, correct replacement for these Jaguars is Tejas Mk 1.
THERE SHOULD BE EQUAL ONE TO ONE REPLACEMENT OF Jaguars by Tejas.
I am going to tweet Both PM and RM

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 19 Aug 2019 16:38

I guess it will too, cause if the engines are not upgraded what will happen to the Darin III upgrades, I guess at 12-18 a year this will extend the SU-30 production which will then replace the Darin 11 Jaguars for the 5- 6 years and by that time LCA MK1/1A production would have stabilized.

So these 6 squadrons will be replaced by 4 squadrons of SU-30 and 2 Squadrons of Tejas. Which will replace the Bisons and Mig 27's also.

Any idea how Many Jaguars are going from Darin 1 to Darin 3 upgrade? How many now can carry ASRAAM missiles?

what about SAAW etc, are they integrated with SU-30 MKI's?

Considering we just bought the ASRAAM etc. It will be a change in IAF philosophy as JAG and MIG 27 dedicated strike aircraft are being retired over the next decade.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby fanne » 19 Aug 2019 17:42

If the Kaveri guys are feeling so confident (and the primary focus should be Kaveri), why they do not develop a follow on engine for Jags. Nothing special or great, just upgrade the same engine with better material, better afterburner, better ....the technology is very 1960s in that Adour engine. Below are the spec, definitely within our capability. In fact the stalled Kaveri looks like is light year modern -
Performance (Adour - Jags, and due to aging the performance has fallen by 25%) -
Maximum thrust: 6,000 lb (27.0 KN) dry / 8,430 lb (37.5 KN) with reheat
Overall pressure ratio: 10.4
Bypass ratio: 0.75-0.8
Fuel consumption: dry 0.81 lb/(lbf⋅h) (23 g/(kN⋅s))
Thrust-to-weight ratio: 4.725

Kaveri (achieved as rumored) -
Performance
Maximum thrust:
Military: 52 kN (11,687 lbf)
Afterburner: 81 kN (18,210 lbf)
Specific fuel consumption:
Military: 0.78 lb/(lbf•h) (79.52 kg/(kN·h))
Afterburner: 2.03 lb/(lbf•h) (207.00 kg/(kN·h))
Thrust-to-weight ratio: 7.8
Bypass ratio: 0.16:1
Overall pressure ratio: 21.5:1

The best measure of engine performance is Thrust-to-weight ratio: 4.725 vs 7.8 a 65% improvement. Agreed not all will translate, but if we can get 20% above the current Adour, it will solve 6 SQ worth of IAF problem. Adour 1960 Tech vs 2019 Tech. I don't know if it violates any licensing agreement. We can always call that engine some other name and say its different.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby MeshaVishwas » 19 Aug 2019 19:21

Manish_Sharma wrote:
MeshaVishwas wrote:Great news if true.

IAF set to shelve Jaguar engine upgrade, could buy more Su-30 MKIs instead
https://theprint.in/defence/iaf-set-to- ... ad/278687/
-Snehesh Alex Philip

Sad news, correct replacement for these Jaguars is Tejas Mk 1.
THERE SHOULD BE EQUAL ONE TO ONE REPLACEMENT OF Jaguars by Tejas.
I am going to tweet Both PM and RM

Su-30 MKI is a more capable (and rightly more expensive) platform than the Tejas.
Tejas will be a 1-1 replacement for the Single engined MiGs.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_Sharma » 19 Aug 2019 19:35

^ Jaguars main feature was low - low flying under the radar, MKI is like a giant Christmas tree its visibility is 15 times more than Stealthy Tejas with composite surface, small size and engine hidden by super sophisticated Y duct.

Also GE 404 / GE 414 engines are ages ahead in reliability + fuel sipping.

IAF has never put any aircraft through testing on safety PLUS AIR TO GROUND Attack capabilities AS MUCH AS TEJAS. It's probably more sophisticated than Mirage 2K upgraded in Both air to air and air to ground, MKI is no match.

Fuel bills and maintenance wise over next 40 years Tejas will save IAF billions too.

Plus the usual arguments of TEJAS is ours MII
Last edited by Manish_Sharma on 19 Aug 2019 22:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby LakshmanPST » 19 Aug 2019 19:43

I think the question here is, Will they retire the non-upgraded Jaguars much earlier, say around 2025...?

I think the ideal plane-to-plane replacement of Jaguar would be MWF... But that is a decade away atleast till 2030 for production to pick up...
If they're going to use the Jaguars until then, I guess they need not have to buy the additional Sukhois and can wait for the MWF...
If they're going to retire them earlier, then I guess 3-4 squadrons of Sukhois is the best way out...
-
But personally, I feel they can use the saved money (and add additional money) to buy 2-3 squadrons of Rafales and close the MMRCA tamasha once and for all...

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Vivek K » 19 Aug 2019 19:43

Totally agree with Manish. Also the Jaguars do not seem to be IAF's weapon of choice for deep strikes as seen from Balakot. Also, I don't recall them being used against PA during Kargil. Perhaps compatibility with strike munitions dictated the choice of M2Ks over Jags - but it would seem that if IAF prefers munitions mated to M2K then it should go in for more M2Ks or aircraft with similar capability.

Based on that, perhaps more Rafales and more LCAs would be logical.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kashi » 19 Aug 2019 19:51

Vivek K wrote:Also, I don't recall them being used against PA during Kargil.


They were. In fact one of them almost dispatched both Ganja and Musharraf before being called off.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby MeshaVishwas » 19 Aug 2019 20:23

Manish_Sharma wrote:^ Jaguars main feature was low - low flying under the radar, MKI is like a giant Christmas tree its visibility is 15 times more than Stealthy Tejas with composite surface, small size and engine hidden by super sophisticated Y duct.

Sukhois are better at low level flying than the Jaguars simply by virtue of its FBW (applies equally to the Tejas which I am sure is also better in that flight profile).

Although the Tejas might have a smaller Radar signature relative to the Su, the difference may not be a game changer (Neither of the two are VLO).

Plus the outcome of the 27 Feb melee tells us how capable the Su is(Just two held off a swarm of F-16s) and add to that over a decade of knowledge of the type in service.

Manish_Sharma wrote:IAF has never put any aircraft through testing on safety PLUS AIR TO GROUND Attack capabilities. It's probably more sophisticated than Mirage 2K upgraded in Both air to air and air to ground, MKI is no match.

The Tejas is better than the Pre Upgrade Mirages, IIRC.

The Mirage 2000I is better than most fighters in the entire subcontinent.

I am certain that additional Su orders will not impact the Tejas orders and vice versa.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 19 Aug 2019 20:39

Be forewarned...IDRW...but for what it is worth...

How HTFE-40 could have saved Jaguar strike aircraft
https://idrw.org/how-htfe-40-could-have ... aircrafts/

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 19 Aug 2019 21:33

Rakesh wrote:Be forewarned...IDRW...but for what it is worth...

How HTFE-40 could have saved Jaguar strike aircraft
https://idrw.org/how-htfe-40-could-have ... aircrafts/


This rag collates news from everywhere and puts their own water mark and regurgitates.

However hsi conclusion is correct and the IAF is deciding to buy more Su-30s as they are more capable machines. The pricing is such that you get one Su-30 for two upgraded Jaguar!!!
And don't give me bokwas about Jaguar DPSA and all that. After SU-30 destroys the radars with SPICE 2K/Brahmos what does it matter?

Sole purpose of jaguar was to successfully kill the HF-24 follow-on.
And it did.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 19 Aug 2019 21:39

Vivek K wrote:Totally agree with Manish. Also the Jaguars do not seem to be IAF's weapon of choice for deep strikes as seen from Balakot. Also, I don't recall them being used against PA during Kargil. Perhaps compatibility with strike munitions dictated the choice of M2Ks over Jags - but it would seem that if IAF prefers munitions mated to M2K then it should go in for more M2Ks or aircraft with similar capability.

Based on that, perhaps more Rafales and more LCAs would be logical.


I think the whole Jaguar procurement was a mistake done to appease the British and get bribes in the late 1970s. And used successfully to kill the HF-24 follow on.
Jaguar is under-powered and doesn't have useful avionics and performed quite badly in Gulf War Desert Storm.
IAF implemented the DARIN 1 and 3 upgrades or it would be even less useful.
In Kargil it had to be turned away and M2K used to drop the LGBs.

I really would like to know how the jaguar was chosen and who were the competitors then?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 19 Aug 2019 21:47

Ramana-ji, the other two competitors to the Jaguar were the Mirage F1 and Saab Viggen.

From wiki....FWIW....

Saab 37 Viggen
In 1978, the United States blocked a major prospective sale to India, which would have involved selling a number of Swedish-built Viggens in addition to a licensed production agreement under which the Viggen would also have been built in India, by not issuing an export license for the RM8/JT8D engine and other American technologies used. India later opted to procure the SEPECAT Jaguar in its place. According to leaked United States diplomatic cables, India's interest in the Viggen was reported to be entirely due to Rajiv Gandhi's influence, and had alleged have been without any input from the Indian Air Force. According to author Chris Smith, the Viggen had been the favoured candidate for the Indian Air Force prior to the deal being blocked by the US.


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