Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

[Prithwiraj]

Let me pose a question here that, to my knowledge, does not get enough discussion, but which bothers me to no end:
....
Am I the only one paranoid about this?

Count me in that group of being paranoid --- and it is not just conventional war time scenario... even a co-ordinated Fidyaeen attack on any of these bases will expose very expensive strategic assets. There has to be very very strict security regime across these bases. Recent attack on Pathankot Air Base proved we are far from securing our airbase perimeters despite having early warning of possible infiltration. We wont be that lucky always to remove most of the assets as a precautionary measure

[ashishvikas]

$7 B order for 83 LCA fighters by year-end
$3 B deal for Airbus C295 transport aircraft
$768 M Akash missiles "in weeks"

http://www.sps-aviation.com/news/?id=62 ... ence-deals

[nachiket]

Let me pose a question here that, to my knowledge, does not get enough discussion, but which bothers me to no end:

I get the distinct feeling that the IAF likes to concentrate its crown jewels (especially those limited by numbers) to key locations during peacetime. Some examples:
1. Apaches being concentrated in one airbase east and one airbase west for dealing with Pak and China.
2. Rafales now poised to be concentrated in one airbase east and one airbase west for dealing with Pak and China.

.....

The point is: are we not making ourselves sitting ducks for a surprise attack runway/airbase denial attacks on just a handful of airbases to remove most of the key assets from the IAF ORBAT?

.....

What is the alternative? If the Rafales are spread out over sevevral airbases in peace time, the maintenance and support infra and personnel for the jets will have to be located at all of them, catering to just a few aircraft in each place. If we go one step further and keep changing their locations it will be a logistical nightmare.

Not to mention the impact on the training since the squadron will be permanently broken up into geographically distant pieces.

I don't think there is a realistic chance of a surprise attack on our airbases out of the blue. There will always be warning signs of a warlike situation way before that. IAF will have contingency plans for relocating their assets in such a scenario (like 1971). This is not taking into account the improvements in Radar cover which continues to improve with acquisition of new systems which will give further, albeit very short warning.

[Prasad]

I would add upgrade IRST along with Irbis-E (Prefer a 2000 TR modules GaN AESA radar instead though).

There won't be a 2000 TRM GaN jet FCR!

For the simple reason, the jet won't be able to provide enough power for such a radar!

A 10W 2k TRM GaAs can theorically pump out 20KW power. A 30W GaN 2k TRM will do 60KW! Jet's cannot produce so much power.

There is no FCR radar pumping out 20KW, forget 60kW.

GaN radar will always be smaller and for all practical purpose will have lower TRM count than GaAs radars.

The Japanese XF9-1 is supposed to generate 180kw per engine. And next gen engines all are being designed to generate more electric power due to increase in need for radar and ew systems.

[ashishvikas]

Great news breaking in from the hangars of #HAL that the desi BTA #HTT40 finally undertakes the 6-turn spin successfully today. The flight was piloted by Gp Capt K K Venugopal (Retd) & Gp Capt S Chaki (Retd). The BTA had done the 5-turn spin on Sept 4. Congrats ARDC.
@akananth

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/11 ... 17765?s=19

[nam]

The Japanese XF9-1 is supposed to generate 180kw per engine. And next gen engines all are being designed to generate more electric power due to increase in need for radar and ew systems.

Even the Russian Ibris radar, which is a monster, pumps out only 5-6KW! 20KW is a waste of power. There is no pointing designing radar with ranges like 600KM or 1000KM. You don't want your adversary's RWR finding out about you from 1000KM! Nor are you going to fire a BVR at those distances!

Higher power requirements on fighters are to satisfy gizmos like IRST, ECM & laser weapons.

[brar_w]

There won't be a 2000 TRM GaN jet FCR!

For the simple reason, the jet won't be able to provide enough power for such a radar!

A 10W 2k TRM GaAs can theorically pump out 20KW power. A 30W GaN 2k TRM will do 60KW! Jet's cannot produce so much power.

There is no FCR radar pumping out 20KW, forget 60kW.

GaN radar will always be smaller and for all practical purpose will have lower TRM count than GaAs radars.

The Japanese XF9-1 is supposed to generate 180kw per engine. And next gen engines all are being designed to generate more electric power due to increase in need for radar and ew systems.

Looking at power generation in isolation is not worth much. Sensor resource allocation is a balance between SWaP (Space Weight and Power). 5th generation aircraft consume a lot of power and thermal management systems are many times larger than 3rd or 4th gen. aircraft. 6th gen. systems won't see linear growth but more like an order of magnitude growth in power and thermal needs - hence the rush towards third stream and adaptive engines to meet those needs (Directed Energy systems alone would warrant a 3-4 : 1 ratio of output to power needs and a lot of cooling). There are many sub-systems now that are competing for SwAP..way more on 5th generation aircraft than older ones. EW systems alone are 2-3 x the footprint and are always on and operating. Same thing the EO/IR systems that have high utilization as well. These things all add up. Similarly, when your radar turns into a multi-function array capable of traditional radar functions (detection, tracking, volume search, weather etc. etc.) plus non-traditional functions like Electronic Attack and communication then you need to operate with much higher thermal margins given the unique charecteristics of some of those needs (cooling required to operate a radar as an EA aperture are significantly higher, for example, than to operate it just as a radar) so until super efficient micro-fluidic cooling materials begin to find their way into high performance radars (should be in the next decade) then the size, and power of your radar will be limited to how much heat you can take away for both performance needs and to stay within strict signature limitations.

[Karan M]

The Japanese XF9-1 is supposed to generate 180kw per engine. And next gen engines all are being designed to generate more electric power due to increase in need for radar and ew systems.

Even the Russian Ibris radar, which is a monster, pumps out only 5-6KW! 20KW is a waste of power. There is no pointing designing radar with ranges like 600KM or 1000KM. You don't want your adversary's RWR finding out about you from 1000KM! Nor are you going to fire a BVR at those distances!

Higher power requirements on fighters are to satisfy gizmos like IRST, ECM & laser weapons.

You are mixing up peak and average power. The Irbis pumps out 20Kw peak. The draw on the aircraft's power system will be larger. It is not a mistake to have high power. There is a good reason for this despite triggering RWR, one is the ECCM capability, second is the range return vs LO/VLO targets. This is the reason aircraft like the Flanker, Eagle are potent. They can field huge arrays, and upgraded motors, alternators are being retrofitted to provide the relevant electrical power.

[jaysimha]

https://rstv.nic.in/abhinandan-varthama ... ankot.html

CAS VISIT AF STN PATHANKOT, 02 SEP 19
Chairman Chief of Staff Committee and Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa PVSM AVSM YSM VM ADC, flew a sorties with Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman

[Kartik]

So Wing Cmdr Abhinandan is now a pilot with No.23 "Panthers" squadron.

[Aditya_V]

Is that a Mig 21 Bison or soon to be retired Mig 21M, are there any 2 seat Mig 21 Bison's? So in future IAF pilots will move from Hawk to MIg 21 Bisons till they are retired?

[Kartik]

There are no twin seat Bisons. They’re all MiG-21bis single seaters upgraded to the Bison standard. The twin seater is a MiG-21 UM Type 69 trainer. But No.23 Panthers operates Bison so Wing Cdr Abhinandan will continue to fly Bison.

[Aditya_V]

If I am right all variants of Mig 21 M and UM(type 69) are going to be retired later this financial year. So are pilots going to move from Hawk to Bisons with the type conversion training? As noted Mig 21 with its High landing speed is a challenging aircraft to fly.

[Aditya_V]

Logically the whole sequence of events make sense
1) After 2nd Mumbai style operation flopped
2) Holes which led to Pathankot were blocked
3) Post Uri surgical Strikes

Pakistan did not want Modi- the whole idea was to humiliate him and the Indian Armed forces in front of the core base, they knew that IAF will try airstrikes after a major terror strike. Similarly, the ISI does have some intelligence in the Indian Political set up, they have been vehemently hating BJP for the last 30 years from when I can remember- yet they still did a wave of bomb attacks in 2006 and 2007, crippling Indian cities like 11/7 Mumbai local train bombings and even 26/11 knowing no military repercussions or from thier view a hostile Govt coming in 2009- many Pakis where enjoying how the Indian armed forces were being humiliated that they cannot lift a finger against Pakistan. They did not want to try something like that in 2013 when the mood of the Indian nation had changed

They bought LY 80 Systems from China, used cross LOC trade to smuggle the explosives and got 1 Kashmiri Bakra to waste himself at PUlwama causing Indian causualties- post this operation they lost valuable trained bomb specialist and killed by Indian forces. When the LY-80 and Nasr system was destroyed on 26 Feb 19 morning, PAF came all with rage and used the H-4 and 83REK expensive PGM's, American GBU and LGB was deliberately not used, since as they expected if the strike was successful- America would have been forced to stop military sales to Pakistan.

Somehow looking at this, I dont think the F-16's launched A to G weaponry, they came to get IAF aircraft and launched 5 AMRAAMS at the SU-30, in all this Wing Commander saw and opportunity and used it to good affect to take down a F-16.

I think what worked was Pakistan being Pakistan did not choose to play the victim card but rather chose the media victory route- that probably why we had ROE in place not to provoke them further which they used to thier tactical advantage but was a strategic blunder. If they focused on playing the victim card for 10-15 days, they could have bulit EU-ME opinion against us and then attacked but they were so shell shocked they denied and made a failed attack without thinking, a Mig 21 Bison at the cost of a F-16 2 pilot lives was the result.

[nachiket]

If I am right all variants of Mig 21 M and UM(type 69) are going to be retired later this financial year. So are pilots going to move from Hawk to Bisons with the type conversion training? As noted Mig 21 with its High landing speed is a challenging aircraft to fly.

Are you sure the UM's are to be retired as well? Do you have a link which mentions that? If the UM's are gone, the Bison squadrons will be left with no 2-seat trainers.

[Kartik]

No, there is no confirmation that the MiG-21UM will retire with the MiG-21M. My belief too is that as long as there are Bisons flying, there will be some flight-worthy MiG-21UMs around.

[Khalsa]

^^^^^^^
That is correct. The UMs etc all the two seaters will carry on till the last squadron is there.
We have been picking up the two seaters much after buying from Russia. They still have plenty of life left in them.

[jaysimha]

INDIGENISATION REQUIRMENT OF IAF updated 16 AUG 2019
http://www.indianairforce.nic.in/sites/ ... UG2019.pdf

[Karan M]

[Vips]

IAF receives Spice-2000 'building blaster' buster bombs.

In a major boost for India's aerial firepower, the Indian Air Force has started receiving the 'building blaster' version of the Balakot air strike-fame Spice-2000 bombs at the Gwalior airbase.

The Israeli firm has started the delivery of the Spice-2000 bombs to India and the first batch of these bombs was received recently, top IAF sources told ANI.

[Philip]

Incendiary munitions will also leave a fiery footprint that the Pakis won't be able to conceall. The more cheap PGMs we possess the better, launched from our side of the border.

[Karan M]

These 100, 200 odd unit orders are good for precise hits but the true revolution will come when mass orders for Astra, desi gliders, LGBs are placed. When IAF has an inventory of 10,000 desi PGMs of each kind, then you'll see a true RMA.
This is good capability, no doubt but still niche capability.

[abhik]

While on the subject any updates on PG-HSLD, anywhere close to being ordered? It's been some time since it was last in news.

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1173613815705026562 ---> On IAF’s post-Balakot feelers on possible Meteor missile integration on Mirage 2000, @byMBDA has responded saying MICA NG a lower cost/risk, better fit solution than Meteor on the Mirage platform.

[Rakesh]

^^^^ In response to tweet above....

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... 6505869312 ---> Basically sell more Micas, ensure Rafale's USP isnt compromised. The RDY3 radar on Mirage 2000 I could cue a Meteor at ranges greater/ equivalent to most PAF/PLAAF AAMs, well within Meteors stated motor "ON" envelope, lethal +. But MBDA is (handshake) with French Govt, Rafale a priority!

[ArjunPandit]

Hu is firestarter on the group??

[abhik]

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1173613815705026562 ---> On IAF’s post-Balakot feelers on possible Meteor missile integration on Mirage 2000, @byMBDA has responded saying MICA NG a lower cost/risk, better fit solution than Meteor on the Mirage platform.

Per below press release MICA NG will be production ready only in 2026.

https://www.mbda-systems.com/press-rele ... a-missile/

May be some phrogistani apologists should explain why they are being so difficult

[Kartik]

IAF seeks additional funds for new equipment

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is seeking an additional INR400 billion (USD5.6 billion) from the Ministry of Defence (MoD) to procure additional fighter and transport aircraft as well as to make payments for previously ordered platforms and equipment.

Official sources told Jane’s on 16 September that the IAF recently informed the MoD that its capital allocation of INR393 billion in the annual budget for fiscal year 2019–20 to acquire new platforms was “grossly inadequate” to fund its long-deferred modernisation.

Among the platforms the IAF is planning to acquire are 114 medium multirole combat aircraft, 83 locally developed Tejas Light Combat Aircraft, 21 Russian MiG-29 and 18 Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighter aircraft as well as 56 transport aircraft, along with associated equipment.

Seeking funds is one thing. Is the GoI going to release those funds?

[kit]

The Japanese XF9-1 is supposed to generate 180kw per engine. And next gen engines all are being designed to generate more electric power due to increase in need for radar and ew systems.

Even the Russian Ibris radar, which is a monster, pumps out only 5-6KW! 20KW is a waste of power. There is no pointing designing radar with ranges like 600KM or 1000KM. You don't want your adversary's RWR finding out about you from 1000KM! Nor are you going to fire a BVR at those distances!

Higher power requirements on fighters are to satisfy gizmos like IRST, ECM & laser weapons.

Advanced LPI radars does precisely that , they are hard to detect even at those ranges.I dont know how much of LPI tech goes into Russian radars but the F22 AESA ( APG 77 ) is 22 KW LPI radar and ranges out to more than 400 km with the new GaN modules, the APG 81 is a further development.

The more power you have , the more sensor capabilities you get and more power for ECMs operating in a wide band .. more is good and that is what you want

" Agile radars like AESA (or PESA) can change its frequency with every pulse (except when using doppler filtering), and generally does so using a random sequence, integrating over time does not help pull the signal out of the background noise. Moreover, a radar may be designed to extend the duration of the pulse and lower its peak power. An AESA or modern PESA will often have the capability to alter these parameters during operation. This makes no difference to the total energy reflected by the target but makes the detection of the pulse by an RWR system less likely.Nor does the AESA have any sort of fixed pulse repetition frequency, which can also be varied and thus hide any periodic brightening across the entire spectrum. Older generation RWRs are essentially useless against AESA radars, which is why AESA's are also known as 'low probability of intercept radars. Modern RWRs must be made highly sensitive (small angles and bandwidths for individual antennas, low transmission loss and noise) and add successive pulses through time-frequency processing to achieve useful detection rates " Source : Wiki

Having said that LPI means precisely that , its not NPI !!

[nachiket]

Advanced LPI radars does precisely that , they are hard to detect even at those ranges.I dont know how much of LPI tech goes into Russian radars but the F22 AESA ( APG 77 ) is 22 KW LPI radar and ranges out to more than 400 km with the new GaN modules, the APG 81 is a further development.

Any link mentioning use of GaN modules on the APG-77 and 81? I hadn't read that before.

Thanks

[brar_w]

None of those airborne radars have GaN. The USAF has seem to drawn a line around power and efficiency gains it needs before it ramps up full scale upgrade and replacement. This means that capabilities at much lower T/M/I RL's like microfluid cooling etc. have to come mainstream before it begins to place massive orders for upgrades and large scale replacements. Scale is also important here as the US DOD/industry builds roughly 200 AESA based fighter radars a year and a wholesale shift would require significant capital investment which would mean at least a generational leap in capability, like the one witnessed going from MSCAN to ESCAN.

[Nikhil T]

IAF seeks additional funds for new equipment

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is seeking an additional INR400 billion (USD5.6 billion) from the Ministry of Defence (MoD) to procure additional fighter and transport aircraft as well as to make payments for previously ordered platforms and equipment.

Official sources told Jane’s on 16 September that the IAF recently informed the MoD that its capital allocation of INR393 billion in the annual budget for fiscal year 2019–20 to acquire new platforms was “grossly inadequate” to fund its long-deferred modernisation.

Among the platforms the IAF is planning to acquire are 114 medium multirole combat aircraft, 83 locally developed Tejas Light Combat Aircraft, 21 Russian MiG-29 and 18 Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighter aircraft as well as 56 transport aircraft, along with associated equipment.

Seeking funds is one thing. Is the GoI going to release those funds?

I don't think GoI can give Rs 80,000 crore a year to IAF for capital purchases, when our overall capital budget is Rs 1,03,000 crore (was Rs 93,000 last year). That's just unreasonable. They should seriously rethink the RFP for 114 MMRCA v2.0 and maximize their bang for the buck by ordering Tejas, Netras, and A330 MRTT tankers.

[JayS]

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1173613815705026562 ---> On IAF’s post-Balakot feelers on possible Meteor missile integration on Mirage 2000, @byMBDA has responded saying MICA NG a lower cost/risk, better fit solution than Meteor on the Mirage platform.

Now that MBDA is giving onsite tour to some Indian journos, gear up for some nauseating marketing by MSM for MBDA.

[jpremnath]

Now that MBDA is giving onsite tour to some Indian journos, gear up for some nauseating marketing by MSM for MBDA.

It started already....on their twitter feed for now atleast. We will see full size articles on MBDA stuff as soon as they get back to des. Well, to be honest, all factory visits on vendor invites are pleasure trips which has the 'reality distortion field' effect...Been personally to some visits in my field, I can vouch that the effects take a while to wear off..

[ArjunPandit]

of course the company is not doing CSR or ESG by bringing otherwise useless dolts to their office at their own expenses...it is upto the individual value system..i see this as rajiv gandhi patrakar samridhi yojna...

[nits]

IAF seeks additional funds for new equipment



Seeking funds is one thing. Is the GoI going to release those funds?

I don't think GoI can give Rs 80,000 crore a year to IAF for capital purchases, when our overall capital budget is Rs 1,03,000 crore (was Rs 93,000 last year). That's just unreasonable. They should seriously rethink the RFP for 114 MMRCA v2.0 and maximize their bang for the buck by ordering Tejas, Netras, and A330 MRTT tankers.

For all those big ticket item - we never pay upfront; payments is milestone and delivery based

[Kartik]

MBDA cites Meteor integration was non-viable for Mirage-2000 citing high integration costs

IAF Mirage-2000 unlikely to get Meteor missiles- makers cite high integration costs

The Indian Air Force’s (IAF) plans to arm the Mirage 2000 fleet with potent long-range Meteor missiles has hit rough weather due to high integration cost and lower capability of the fighter jet. The Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missile Meteor — part of the Rafale weapons package — has a range of about 150 km and a no-escape zone of 100 km.

Officials at MBDA, the missile’s maker, said they had discussed the matter with the IAF and were informed that the deal was “not viable”.

“We are in discussion with the IAF and it could still be an option. Our initial view is that perhaps the most optimal solution will be to bring the next generation MICA on the Mirage platform,” said MBDA’s Ryan Hurril, while briefing a select group of Indian journalists at its facility in the United Kingdom.

IAF sources also confirmed that they were informed by the MBDA about the higher cost of integrating the Meteor on the Mirage 2000.

“Moreover, the Meteor works with a state-of-the-art radar that comes with platforms like Rafale. Meteor won’t be as effective on a Mirage which comes with a different radar,” said an IAF source.

[Gyan]

I suspect that Meteor issue is being used to modulate public opinion for additional 36 Rafales

[nam]

Advanced LPI radars does precisely that , they are hard to detect even at those ranges.I dont know how much of LPI tech goes into Russian radars but the F22 AESA ( APG 77 ) is 22 KW LPI radar and ranges out to more than 400 km with the new GaN modules, the APG 81 is a further development.

The more power you have , the more sensor capabilities you get and more power for ECMs operating in a wide band .. more is good and that is what you want

LPI does not necessary mean more power. It is the inherit capability to AESA to frequency hop. Wider the bandwidth, more difficult for your RWR to read the signal, as the frequency used may be outside the range of RWR.

Similarly if you are jammed on one frequency, you can have a group of TRM transmit at another frequency and move the radar to set of frequency which is deemed safe.

So fundamentally AESA are difficult to jam given their hopping and clustering capability..You need a wide band AESA jammer to play with AESA FCR.

And there is no GaN based FCR in operational jet, anywhere.

[kit]

Advanced LPI radars does precisely that , they are hard to detect even at those ranges.I dont know how much of LPI tech goes into Russian radars but the F22 AESA ( APG 77 ) is 22 KW LPI radar and ranges out to more than 400 km with the new GaN modules, the APG 81 is a further development.

The more power you have , the more sensor capabilities you get and more power for ECMs operating in a wide band .. more is good and that is what you want

LPI does not necessary mean more power. It is the inherit capability to AESA to frequency hop. Wider the bandwidth, more difficult for your RWR to read the signal, as the frequency used may be outside the range of RWR.

Similarly if you are jammed on one frequency, you can have a group of TRM transmit at another frequency and move the radar to set of frequency which is deemed safe.

So fundamentally AESA are difficult to jam given their hopping and clustering capability..You need a wide band AESA jammer to play with AESA FCR.

And there is no GaN based FCR in operational jet, anywhere.

i thought the mitsubishi radar in Japans exp fighter was one ?