Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 25 Sep 2019 23:16

Rakesh wrote:The Indian Air Force flies some of the best fighter aircraft out there ---> upgraded Mirage 2000Is, upgraded MiG-29UPGs, Su-30MKI (will become even more potent with the Super Sukhoi upgrade) and the upcoming Rafale F3R. The IAF is confident of all their birds and that is clearly evident in the above pilot's interview.


Note his comment on Su-30 radar, payload, weapons range as well.

He has really taken the axe to the JF-17. :lol:

A desi fighter jock who calls it like it is, you can literally see the confidence & aggression, drive to win emanating from his words.

You have nailed it, with Astra included & now ASRAAM on the way, the sensor & weapons diversity of the IAF fleet will be vicious. 8)

LCA Mk1A: AESA + Astra/Derby/R-73E/ASRAAM
MiG-29: ZhukME+ Astra, RVV-AE, R-73E, R-27 ET/ER
Su-30: Bars+ Astra, i-Derby ER (?), ASRAAM, RVV-AE, R-27 ET/ER, R-73E
Mirage 2000: RDY3 + Mica IR/Mica EM + Astra
Rafale: RBE2 AESA + Mica IR/Mica EM+ Meteor
Jaguar: AESA + ASRAAM

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby naird » 26 Sep 2019 00:11

Karan M wrote:He has really taken the axe to the JF-17. :lol:

1. Seems Mig 21 has lot of fans in IAF. His comments on Mig 21 DACT is a homage. Still not able to understand the fact from DACT perspective Su 30 should have been right up there.

2. Sensors are apparently the best in IAF much better than Su30. infact he rates M2K as the best a/c in sub continent at the current moment. Goes to show that Su 30 desperately needs an upgrade - time is well past

3. He literally swats F16 aside. Doesnt give it to much bhaav (weightage) at all

4. He just reinforced what some of us always believed in. Russian acrobatics (cobra, charlie) are useless in real combat - this is opposite to what Su 30 pilot told us. However he has told that this is what western a/c designers believed in - but i am infering it as something he also believes.

5. Ouch for JF17

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Bart S » 26 Sep 2019 00:23

naird wrote:4. He just reinforced what some of us always believed in. Russian acrobatics (cobra, charlie) are useless in real combat - this is opposite to what Su 30 pilot told us. However he has told that this is what western a/c designers believed in - but i am infering it as something he also believes.




This is what the diehard Russian fanboys don't get either. The Russian thread is full of 'oooh what a nice flying display, what an awesome bird, IAF should buy a few squadrons...' and going gaga over some airshow display or brochure specs, totally ignoring the non-glamorous aspects of proven reliability, dispatch rate, capability of weapons and sensor suite.
Last edited by Bart S on 26 Sep 2019 00:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 26 Sep 2019 00:25

Nair Saar, just remember....every pilot is biased towards a particular platform i.e. Russian or Western. It just human nature. Kinda like an infantry soldier and his weapon. Give him another weapon and he will still says his is best. I have heard MiG-21 pilots say that when they are up in the air, they are nothing short of the Almighty himself. So while a Su-30 pilot will say Pugachev Cobra and other Russian acrobatics are awesome, a pilot trained on a Western platform will say the opposite.

Regardless, one thing that really stands out in the interview is this line ---> Like I said before WVR depends more on pilot’s skill, his situational awareness and his/her ‘Sang Froid’ in a fight. IAF pilots score over anybody in this regard, simply because of our training.

IAF pilot training is second to none. Really world class and that is not jingoism. Don't take my word for it. Just look at what Wg Cdr Abhinandan Varthaman, VrC pulled off at Balakot. You have to know your platform in & out and be super confident about your training to pull that off.

With regards to Point 5 you made, very true. His statement on the JF-17 is so real ---> Can beat this extremely underpowered fighter in any fight. This is not a rhetoric, I have commented on it earlier. The JF-17 project should have been shelved because it does not tick any box of a modern-day fighter.

JF-17 Thunder is more like JF-17 Fundaar :)

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby naird » 26 Sep 2019 01:23

Rakesh wrote:Nair Saar, just remember....every pilot is biased towards a particular platform i.e. Russian or Western. It just human nature. Kinda like an infantry soldier and his weapon. Give him another weapon and he will still says his is best. I have heard MiG-21 pilots say that when they are up in the air, they are nothing short of the Almighty himself. So while a Su-30 pilot will say Pugachev Cobra and other Russian acrobatics are awesome, a pilot trained on a Western platform will say the opposite.

Admiral - in this case we have a pilot who has trained on Russian a/c and then migrated to western a/c ; so he has best of both worlds. He would the russian design philosophy. Even though he doesnt say upfront - in a round about way he dismisses the russian acrobatics and its applicability in real combat situations. However Su30 pilot conveyed quite opposite. My personal take - these acrobatics are useless with HMD's.

Rakesh wrote:With regards to Point 5 you made, very true. His statement on the JF-17 is so real ---> Can beat this extremely underpowered fighter in any fight. This is not a rhetoric, I have commented on it earlier. The JF-17 project should have been shelved because it does not tick any box of a modern-day fighter.

JF-17 Thunder is more like JF-17 Fundaar :)


Brutal !! Loved this interview for more than one reason. This interview really conveys the jock attitude that fighter pilots have. I thought Su 30 pilot interview was very plain. Wait for a hushkit interview with PAF viper pilot who would be dismissive of M2K and Su's. As we speak Ghafoora might be penning the interview script.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 26 Sep 2019 01:25

+1 on the Pilots loving their platform, Rakesh ji

However do note that he was on the MiG 21 earlier and then on to the Mirage. Then again He also does say that he has not flown the Su 30 MKI.

For me the clincher is what he says about the Pilot standards & capabilities being honed to very high levels by virtue of rigorous training.

Some posters have commented that the pakis will be butt hurt by his comments on the JF17. Doubt it very much. They live in their own fantasy world. If a gora had made such a comment then they might have felt the pain.

More likely that the muricans won't be pleased about his dissing the Viper. But they at least have the comfort of mentioning all those Block upgrades, if not the F21. Some might well answer with bolts of Lightning :wink: .

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 26 Sep 2019 01:43

What's gotten me more excited with this interview is that we'd be full mk1 and mk1a

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 26 Sep 2019 02:26

@ naird: Agree with all your points. Your statement on Ghafoora is hillarious! Good One. I am still laughing thinking about it! :lol:

@ Manish_P: Please drop the ji :)

What the Group Captain said about the F-16 is what I have heard from other IAF pilots as well. Especially now with the Su-30MKI and the upgraded MiG-29UPGs and Mirage 2000I/TIs....the IAF is confident that they will come out on top against PAF F-16s.

In light of the above, think where on the totem pole lies the F-16 (now F-21) in the MRCA contest. His comment (reproduced below) about single engine vs twin engine fighter is also very interesting. The battle is going to be between the F-18 and the Rafale in the MRCA contest.

“I am of a firm believer that there should be two engines in a fighter aeroplane, twin engine fighters have a huge advantage. I believe Dassault Aviation came up a twin-engine version of Mirage 2000 called the Mirage 4000. It wasn’t pursued because the Rafale programme by then had gathered steam and as a policy I guess Dassault Aviation shelved the project. Yes! I do wish there was one more engine. Snecma (now Safran) engines are very reliable that way. I do not recollect any incident where the engine just quit out of the blue.

By the way, this is Group Captain MJA Vinod (Retd). As per his twitter profile, he now flies the Airbus A320. What a lifestyle change!

https://twitter.com/mjavinod?lang=en

Image

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Roop » 26 Sep 2019 04:17

kit wrote:( also there has been an espionage effort at stealing from TACDE establishment )


I was unaware of this. Could you please elaborate? TIA.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 26 Sep 2019 05:49

naird wrote:
Karan M wrote:He has really taken the axe to the JF-17. :lol:

1. Seems Mig 21 has lot of fans in IAF. His comments on Mig 21 DACT is a homage. Still not able to understand the fact from DACT perspective Su 30 should have been right up there.


He's a MiG21 and Mirage 2000 pilot, so not a surprise, everyone has their area of expertise and he was a master of the Mirage and Type75. But he makes the valid point that non FBW aircraft can be taken to the limits by skilled pilots. Same is mentioned for the MiG29 and even Su30K.

2. Sensors are apparently the best in IAF much better than Su30. infact he rates M2K as the best a/c in sub continent at the current moment. Goes to show that Su 30 desperately needs an upgrade - time is well past


You are mistaken here, he clearly notes he has not flown the Su30 and also notes Su30 radar range, payload and weapons range make it a terrific threat and refuses to compare them directly. The IAF went up against the FAF in Garuda in 2005 and then in 2010. In the latter, we pitted the Su-30 MKI against the Mirage 2000-V the French have, and the MKI sensors were considered more powerful. The French flew the Mirage 2000-V(F) and while the Mk2 came about later, in A2A, the French AF received a similar upgrade to RDY2 levels (2004) and even added Mica IR in 2007. But its not merely a question of power, the French flew smart tactics to get to the merge, by avoiding the IAF radar coverage. Also, we have the RDY3 radar, this is a cost effective evolution of the RDY series, with slightly lower range but almost all the same capabilities.

How does its situational awareness compare with the Su-30 – any why?

I haven’t flown the Su-30, however what I can say is Su-30 in the air is a nightmare for many because of its tremendous capability… because of its radar range, weapon range and load-out.”


He does say the Mirage 2000 is the best *aircraft* in the subcontinent, etc, "with the kind of radar, sensors it has" it will be the best, which is fine. Su30 guys say they are the best too but it is not just them, the French whom they flew against rated them as having more powerful systems, but also noted there were ways to fight that (try to avoid radar coverage).

I am not going to get into more details of the Mirage 2000 fit, here but there are specific areas where the Su30 guys, and now the MiG29 Upg guys may have certain specs they are ahead, certain areas where the Mirage 2000 is (the cockpit sophistication for instance) and hence all these aircraft complement each other.

BTW, the Mirage 2000 upgrade features the RDY3, the MKI has Bars plus IRST. Latter two are very capable systems. The rest of the loadout is very similar.

Does this mean you consider it superior to the Su-30 for the BVR mission, if so — why?

It would not be right to say, a particular aircraft is superior to the other in all aspects. Every aircraft, especially fighter aircraft are optimised for a certain role and manoeuvrability. Depending on how the designer envisaged it. Russians pay a lot of heed to manoeuvrability, manoeuvres that a Su 30 or a MiG-29 can do, like the Pugachevs cobra or Kulbits are signature manoeuvres that aircraft designed by the West cannot do. Why? Because they didn’t envisage that the aeroplane would need to do such a manoeuvre during air combat. As regards BVR missions, two things are very important, one is look (AKA ‘radar range’), next is the weapon that can hit far (AKA ‘weapon reach’). On paper and in real IAF scores over Pakistan in both. With inclusion of Astra, IAF has acquires indigenous capability too, which has pushed this divide between ‘haves and have nots’ even further.”
Su-30 has its advantage in employment in certain areas and Mirage 2000 in certain areas. Together they make a very potent force.


He's actually pointing out the exact area where the Su-30 will get a leg up. The sensors are not an issue.

3. He literally swats F16 aside. Doesnt give it to much bhaav (weightage) at all


From a neutral perspective, the F16 is a good compare to our upgraded Mirages. Same level of sensor capability, longer/equivalent stick in the AMRAAM, likely behind on EW, Mica IR. Make no mistake, the PAF F16 guys are also confident about handling the Mirage but the Mirage has certain nasty capabilities they dont. :wink:

I'd give the edge to our guys as they do heavy DACT w/RSAF vipers and are hence comfortable en masse (more folks qualified, more people who can train against it). PAF apparently deputes people to the Middle East for the same experience, but they cannot fly platform vs platform in LFE frequently. We do so.

But the most important point is skill. Just take a look at this man's CV. He was clearly one of the top Bis jocks and was regularly acing DACT and then handpicked to go to the Battle Axes, wherein he mastered the platform and is now an expert on the platform, its aerodynamics, its weapons system. A guy like GC Vinod is lethal because he has mastered his art and that puts him at an edge against any PAF pilot who simply doesn't have that breadth of experience.

4. He just reinforced what some of us always believed in. Russian acrobatics (cobra, charlie) are useless in real combat - this is opposite to what Su 30 pilot told us. However he has told that this is what western a/c designers believed in - but i am infering it as something he also believes.


The Su30 actually has a phenomenal ITR when TVC is on. High alpha is again a Su30 area of expertise.

Again, don't reinforce your like-dislike by interpreting stuff in favor of any aircraft, its about the overall capability. Lets just say that in both BVR and WVR, the phenomenal aero abilities of the Russian birds, and the sensor packages, weapons diversity makes them very dangerous threats. The Su-30 adds the ability to literally spin on a dime, this has specific advantages in a wide range of scenarios and profiles where the TVC is capable *including BVR*.

Where the Mirage 2000 scores is the sheer ease of use and integrated manner in which all of it "works together". Its cockpit sophistication + weapons + automation + FBW allow a single pilot to handle a lot of tasks, however for certain tasks the Su-30's dual cockpit system will remain more capable. Two sets of eyes and brains, provided they work in synch (train together extensively).

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 26 Sep 2019 05:51

Bart S wrote:
naird wrote:4. He just reinforced what some of us always believed in. Russian acrobatics (cobra, charlie) are useless in real combat - this is opposite to what Su 30 pilot told us. However he has told that this is what western a/c designers believed in - but i am infering it as something he also believes.




This is what the diehard Russian fanboys don't get either. The Russian thread is full of 'oooh what a nice flying display, what an awesome bird, IAF should buy a few squadrons...' and going gaga over some airshow display or brochure specs, totally ignoring the non-glamorous aspects of proven reliability, dispatch rate, capability of weapons and sensor suite.


No baiting of other posters by calling them fanboys etc.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Vivek K » 26 Sep 2019 06:05

Not having your own MIC exposes you to shock waves from disruptors (i.e. AMRAAMs to PAF). That is why it is essential to have a domestic MIC and add more advanced weaponry to strike aircraft. Simply going on a buying spree only pushes the economy back, and binds your foreign policy to the vendor. It is better to mate advanced weaponry to LCA. Short term relief is perhaps ok.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 26 Sep 2019 06:43

Amen to that, I am hoping for mass Astra orders for IAF. It will drastically boost the combat efficiency of IAF.
Unlike an imported R-77, you know it works thoroughly, 5 years of non-stop trials which it has aced.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 26 Sep 2019 07:48

naird wrote:Admiral - in this case we have a pilot who has trained on Russian a/c and then migrated to western a/c ; so he has best of both worlds. He would the russian design philosophy. Even though he doesnt say upfront - in a round about way he dismisses the russian acrobatics and its applicability in real combat situations. However Su30 pilot conveyed quite opposite. My personal take - these acrobatics are useless with HMD's.


He flew the MiG-21 Bis pre-upgrade our best, but of course the Su-30 and MiG-29 are a generation ahead. HMD is again limited to your field of view and can impose quite a strain on the pilot. TVC, high-alpha, energy retention and regain (high T:W ratio's) are all very valuable, they get you an addition to the TVC. Otherwise, you'd just put HMD on a bizjet and put it up in WVR.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby kit » 26 Sep 2019 08:24

Vivek K wrote:Not having your own MIC exposes you to shock waves from disruptors (i.e. AMRAAMs to PAF). That is why it is essential to have a domestic MIC and add more advanced weaponry to strike aircraft. Simply going on a buying spree only pushes the economy back, and binds your foreign policy to the vendor. It is better to mate advanced weaponry to LCA. Short term relief is perhaps ok.


+1 . You said it right. Every foreign platform is designed according to that countrys requirements.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby abhik » 26 Sep 2019 08:34

Here we go again.
IAF to begin fresh hunt for mid-air refuelling aircraft
https://hindustantimes.com/india-news/i ... TAk6O.html

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 26 Sep 2019 10:39

The most interesting part of our Mirage upgrade is this. It fields a variant of the Rafale's MDPU, mission and graphics computing suite. Most importantly:

The cockpit of the Mirage 2000-5 has been totally redesigned, based on development of the Rafale. The instrument panel is essentially occupied by the five colour LCD screens providing information on flight parameters and weapons status. These are complemented by a head-up/head-medium display which presents flight, navigation and mission data, including weapon status and firing. This is the display for short-range engagements. The pilot has available a further two lateral screens for the management of systems and the presentation of sensor information and the display of EW data. Finally, a head-down display presents the tactical situation. In addition all operating systems are designed on the HOTAS principle (hands on throttle and stick).


IMO its fairly reasonable to surmise the Mirage 2000 also carries out data fusion and then displays it on a TSD. In other words, a pilot will have a map or an air display, with all the hostile threats marked out. You can imagine the level of automation.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 26 Sep 2019 15:16

naird wrote:...
4. He just reinforced what some of us always believed in. Russian acrobatics (cobra, charlie) are useless in real combat - this is opposite to what Su 30 pilot told us. However he has told that this is what western a/c designers believed in - but i am infering it as something he also believes.
...


Dogfights are about managing your energy. Whoever has more energy will come out on top in a drawn out affair. Having said that, there many other factors like weight, merge, positioning, altitude, speed, HMD w/high off-bore-sight missiles, EW/ECCM etc along with pilot raining and familiarity with their platform as to when to put certain features to good use all come into play.

In short, can’t dismiss so easily. If he was trained in Su-30MKI and says that then that has merit.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby manjgu » 26 Sep 2019 17:46

kit wrote:
Vivek K wrote:
+1 . You said it right. Every foreign platform is designed according to that countrys requirements.


thats not quite true for all platforms . Bofors gun works well for everyone... requirement of defence forces except in some spl cases is v similar. A F16 works v well for all ..from USA to Pukeistan...a SU works well for many.... i think countries make platforms with whatever best tech they have ..for domestic consumption and exports ( amybe a little watered down versions sometimes).

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 26 Sep 2019 18:43

^^^
Import nations tailor their RFI/RFP with a particular favorite in mind ;)

One thing is host country vs foreign country operating environments can be drastically different. Product (like T-90S) designed for Russian cold winters haven’t fared too well in Indian hot desert conditions.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 26 Sep 2019 18:52

And if you want Volumes plus customization to win a war you need your own MIC. Apart from Short wars like Arab Israeli wars and USSR freindship prices importing 100 + Mig 21s, 100+ Su 7, Vidyut class missile boats etc. No one has one a decesive victory on foreign Arms. in World War 2 it was MIC's of USA, plus USSR, UK which was able to beat the relatively massive MIC's of Germany and Japan.

If the USA had not prepared and producing B-17's, B-24's and other stuff before the War plus thier fighters from Crossair's before the war, Germany and Japan would not have lost in few years and war would have dragged on.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby fanne » 26 Sep 2019 18:59

guys I think we had DACT between su30mki (current version) and m2ki (upgraded) just a month ago and the result were that SU30MKI was ahead by some 1.5 in BVR AND 1.9 in WVR. Isn't this the final answer on the question and perhaps the only authoritative one

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Bart S » 26 Sep 2019 19:34

fanne wrote:guys I think we had DACT between su30mki (current version) and m2ki (upgraded) just a month ago and the result were that SU30MKI was ahead by some 1.5 in BVR AND 1.9 in WVR. Isn't this the final answer on the question and perhaps the only authoritative one


Link/source data please.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby manjgu » 26 Sep 2019 19:42

ofc u need ur own MIC ( no doubts abt it ) but the assertion that every platform is designed according to its own needs is not right. sometimes countries build a export only version..JF 17 is an example. Yes, tropicalisation is an issue but thats taken care of by suitable modifications. the fact that products of 3/4 countries are used by the rest of the world is a testimony to the fact that products are designed as per tech available etc.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Sonugn » 26 Sep 2019 20:33

Lessons from Balakot: Air force to revamp radio system in all planes
Planes of the Indian Air Force (IAF) are all set to get a technical boost as the defence ministry has decided to revamp radio systems in all IAF planes. This was part of the recommendations made by the Air Force following its assessment of the Balakot airstrikes and why Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman's MiG-21 Bison went down during a dogfight a day after that.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby fanne » 26 Sep 2019 20:33

Bart S ji,
It is in this forum, posted within few weeks. Karan M and others have also answered, linked it. It came from one of the twitter account of ex IAF person. I tried googling, could not find it (have always been bad with googling stuff). Apologies, perhaps you can find and post.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Ganesh_S » 27 Sep 2019 01:39

OT. Athens flying week 2019 has some interesting videos on a mock AtoA combat of M2K vrs F16. One video shows fully loaded f16 being chased by an m2k while the other shows M2k with a centerline fuel tank and a couple of AtoA missiles chasing the same f 16.

https://youtu.be/WzhBN7LI70s

https://youtu.be/CLLDjyMOBX4

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 27 Sep 2019 01:44

That was a great interview with GrpCapt Vinod! Gives you an insight into why the IAF likes the M2k so much. Loved his comments about the JF-17's capabilities although I will still credit the PAF for fully backing it. Whatever its drawbacks are it provided them with a cost-effective way of replacing and augmenting their aging fleet with a decent 4th Gen fighter.

I think people are misunderstanding his comments about the Su-30. He mentions that maneuvers like the Cobra are unlikely to be used in a dogfight, which is true. That is why you never see IAF pilots performing the cobra even in airshows. It puts a lot of stress on the airframe and they are flying active airframes that need to last. Not showpieces which the Sukhoi test pilots fly in airshows. But that doesn't mean the MKI's great maneuverability is useless in a dogfight. It most definitely is not. The Americans would not have insisted that the F-22 be a good dogfighter if that was the case.

The problem is people see the Sukhois performing the Cobra and tail-slide at airshows and think that all other fighters would be completely outclassed in a dogfight, which is not the case. The M2k certainly cannot do those maneuvers but flown well it can still hold its own against a Flanker. I believe this is what GC Vinod was trying to say. The same with the STR issue. People tend to dismiss delta-winged aircraft because they have a lower STR. But STR is not the be-all and end all of ACM. I am pretty sure the Sabre had a higher STR than any of our fighters in 65 and 71 (better than the Gnat certainly). That somehow did not seem to bother our pilots when they kept shooting Sabres down.

The only surprising thing for me in the interview was his dismissal of the Viper. This is the first and only time I have seen the Viper being dismissed as "underpowered" :shock: On paper at least the F-16 has a better T:W ratio than the M2k. I'm not sure of the upgraded Paki F-16's though, because I do not know if they got new engines with the upgrade. The Block-50/52 F-16 variants are markedly heavier with CFT's, extra internal fuel and new avionics etc. and that was compensated for by more powerful engines. I don't know if the ones which the pakis upgraded got those new engines. They also bought some new built Block-52s which definitely have the new engines.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 27 Sep 2019 03:09

^^^

Flying & fighting in the Sukhoi Su-30 ‘Flanker’: A pilot interview
...
Which aircraft have you flown DACT against and which was the most challenging?

“In the Su-30 I have flown DACT with RSAF (Royal Singapore Air Force) F-16, M-2000 H /5[ FAF], MiG -29 amongst the ASFs. I think the most challenging was the M2000 in France. The carefree manoeuvrability of the Mirage its nose profile and avionics package perhaps gave it an edge over the others. The F-16 beyond the initial turn loses steam, the MiG -29 is very powerful but conventional controls maybe …. . A good Mirage guy can manoeuvre more carefree.”
...

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 27 Sep 2019 03:10

Just happy to know that the IAF possesses the best of both worlds - Su-30MKI and Mirage 2000.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 27 Sep 2019 03:58

Rakesh wrote:Just happy to know that the IAF possesses the best of both worlds - Su-30MKI and Mirage 2000.

Exactly! But also sad thinking about what could have been if the IAF's original demand for 126 M2k's for MRCA had gone through.. :cry:

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby kit » 27 Sep 2019 05:17

manjgu wrote:
kit wrote:


thats not quite true for all platforms . Bofors gun works well for everyone... requirement of defence forces except in some spl cases is v similar. A F16 works v well for all ..from USA to Pukeistan...a SU works well for many.... i think countries make platforms with whatever best tech they have ..for domestic consumption and exports ( amybe a little watered down versions sometimes).


It is just more than platforms, a country invests in its platforms that suits its technological level and usage, the khan has sensor predominance everywhere on the planet, even a short legged fighter with enhanced sensor suites and situational awareness makes sense for them (Space and long range sensors with a F35/22 combo) than a long range interdiction fighter that is backed up very good area denial systems like S400 ( Russia and the Flanker/Mig 31)

All those fighters make sense for Russia or US NOT India., its time we made our own requirements based on OUR threat perceptions. Now where is that National Defence University ? :evil:

One size does NOT fit all.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_Sharma » 27 Sep 2019 05:47

Bart S wrote:
naird wrote:4. He just reinforced what some of us always believed in. Russian acrobatics (cobra, charlie) are useless in real combat - this is opposite to what Su 30 pilot told us. However he has told that this is what western a/c designers believed in - but i am infering it as something he also believes.




This is what the diehard Russian fanboys don't get either. The Russian thread is full of 'oooh what a nice flying display, what an awesome bird, IAF should buy a few squadrons...' and going gaga over some airshow display or brochure specs, totally ignoring the non-glamorous aspects of proven reliability, dispatch rate, capability of weapons and sensor suite.



Russian Mig 29 vs WESTERN Mirage 2000



https://hushkit.net/2019/08/12/mig-29-v ... sh-masand/

The exercise was conducted to evaluate the new 29s, received in Poona in June of 1987 but formally inducted in the IAF in December, against the Mirage 2000s, the best that the IAF had till then for over four years. While most of the ’29 jockeys barely had a 100 hours on type, one could not but feel the excitement of testing the machine, the individual skills and the newly developed tactics against the veterans on the Mirages I could feel this excitement amongst even the youngest and inexperienced pilots even though they were going to face the far more experienced Mirage pilots, all of the later handpicked for the first and many subsequent lots, most of them on the fleet for over 4 years and most with 500 hours plus on the type. Of course, one had also heard of how the Mirages had conducted a similar exercise against the MiG-23 MFs earlier in Adampur soon after the induction of the Mirages, whipped the veterans on the 23s and come home with a lot of gunshots against the ill-matched swing-wings. All the same, though we were relatively inexperienced, we were looking forward to the exciting and interesting two weeks ahead of us. In addition, in a couple of weeks after that exercise, our 28 Sqn was celebrating its silver jubilee as the First Supersonics and some of our attention had to go towards organisation of the events and preparations to tap into some professional and personal memories of the old-timers who were attending the function, including the then Chief, Polly Mehra, retired Air Marshal Mally Wollen and many other ex-COs and members of the First Supersonics. As it happened, after this exercise, we had our own tales to tell too.

“I think the ’29 is one of the best fighting platforms in the world even today”
Before I describe the events, I think it would be essential to put down the background a little more in detail to set the narrative in perspective. The trials were code-named Ex Lightning and were to be conducted in a Top Secret manner under the overall control and supervision of then Group Captain Jeff D’Souza, who was the Chief Operations Officer or COO of Air Force Station, Poona at that time. Jeff was a very qualified and capable officer having been on the staff of TACDE after winning the sword of honor in the 10th FCL course. On top of his impressive professional credentials, he was soft-spoken, mature and a truly likeable gentleman without any airs due to which reasons, as I remember, he commanded tremendous respect from all of us in the base as well as within the entire Air Force. The AOC, Air Commodore IS Bindra, had left the whole exercise to Jeff totally and was hardly ever seen for the brief/debriefs for the exercise. Jeff had made it quite clear at the start itself that ego and one-upmanship were taboo for the exercise and, while each specifically designed mission would be flown realistically to the limits of the aircraft, the rules of engagement and flight safety considerations were not to be violated. Also, considering the sensitive nature of the exercise and the information gathered, single copies of the mission reports after debrief would be generated by the nominated agency from either side, to be collated and forwarded to HQ personally by him. As a result, no performance figures or reports on the tactics were retained by the squadrons, at least on the 29 side. Due to this reason, as well as the fact that the information may still be sensitive, I hope the reader will understand the lack of any data or solid figures in this article. I only want to highlight the experience, some of the good times we had and the fun side of things in these two weeks.

“I only remember that the ’29 outperformed the Mirage in every sphere from sustained rate of turn to climb and even in instantaneous rate of turn.”
:shock:
I was leading the team from the 29s while Pudding Ahluwalia, then commanding 1 Sqn, The Tigers, brought and led the Mirage Team from Gwalior. The first thing that struck anyone that saw the MiG-29 and Mirage 2000 parked side by side in Poona was the finish and polish, as it had struck me in October 1987 when Joe Bakshi’s Mirages and our 29s were parked together in Hindon for the Air Force Day display over Palam. More than the sheer difference in size between the two aircraft, were, the clean lines and finish of the 2000 compared to the brutish rough finish and slightly wavy surfaces of the 29. While the finish on the 29 was much better than the MiG-23 or the 21, it was still nowhere close to the aerodynamically and aesthetically soothing finish of the 2000. Right from the first day of the exercise, therefore, I had started calling this a fight between the beauty and the beast and called the Mirage 2000 and their pilots “Delicate Darlings”, or DDs for short, a name that I had coined earlier in Hindon. The size difference between Pudding and me was exactly the reverse of the aircraft and I do not think Pudding ever appreciated being called a DD, particularly by me. When I had earlier used the term on Joe in jest at Hindon, he had merely laughed at it and, being the sport he was, even stood me a beer for thinking of such a term on a relatively quiet evening.

07mig

Air HQ had also detailed three umpires from TACDE and accordingly, Vicky Chopra, Damu Damodran and Joe Bakshi from that hallowed institution were with us for the entire duration, flying with us in the rear cockpits of trainer aircraft from both sides to see there was no fudging or exceeding the limits of the aircraft as well as safety of the missions while also making for some lighter moments in the debriefs and for the entire duration of the exercise. Joe was known for his limericks and jokes, apart from his flying skills, and mid-way through the exercise, he coined a poem on the whole scene in a lighter vein and another at the end, scribbling away in the last row, as I saw him in the debriefs. I found these two poems to be quite funny and put the originals in the 28 Sqn Diary. To make for a better perspective, I have placed the transcripts of these two poems at the end of this rumination.

He still could not accept that the Mirage did not out-perform the 29, at least in the instantaneous rate of turn. I tried to pacify him by saying things like that the Mirage was certainly a good-looking aircraft :rotfl: with some great qualities and systems and he should be happy that he got the beauty while I had the beast.”
The first few trips were planned as individual performance trials with one trainer from each side flying together and synchronously carrying out the briefed maneuvers starting at low-levels to check the timings and compare the performance. I had Doc Vaidya, then commanding 7 Sqn on Mirages, flying with me for the first trip in the rear seat even though he was from the rival camp since the idea was also to familiarize each side with the handling qualities of the other aircraft. Pudding had asked me earlier, right at the start if he could send a young pilot and an engineer to my squadron to study the manuals and the aircraft in greater detail, also by interacting with our people. Perhaps, his idea was to find some way of countering our tactics by understanding our systems better. Later, I was told that he was collecting performance figures for his own private report to his C-in-C or Air HQ. Whatever may have been the purpose, we did not dwell or worry about it since we were still from the same Air Force and the idea was to mutually learn and improve each other’s tactics and skills. That is also the reason why Doc Vaidya, who became a dear friend over the years, found a place in the rear-seat of my 29 on the very first trip. I do not quite recall what he felt about the experience except for the words “wonderful” and “thank you”. Perhaps, Doc would write about the experience himself someday.

I only remember that the ’29 outperformed the Mirage in every sphere from sustained rate of turn to climb and even in instantaneous rate of turn. This was as our side had expected, having earlier theoretically compared the performance figures for the two aircraft. [b]The only doubt in our minds was about the performance of the fly-by-wire system which could reportedly produce the optimum performance on the Mirage in any given set of conditions, albeit with an over-ride for the slightly enhanced performance for a short duration while we had to get the best out of the MiG-29 manually through conventional hydraulic controls. Due to this reason, I would have been quite content to see the initial instantaneous rate of turn on the Mirage to be better, at least for the first 90 to 180 degrees of the turn, till the induced drag of the delta platform and the lower thrust to weight ratio of the Mirage took over. However, I had been working on coordinated pressures on the control surfaces to generate even rapid manoeuvres, instead of large or even noticeable movements on the controls which had their own problems, particularly at low-levels, for my displays on the 29 since Aug-Sep 1987 and, was very pleasantly surprised to see that this effort really paid off and even the instantaneous rate of turn was in our FAVOUR..[/b]

In a turn towards the Mirage, I found we were crossing even 90 degrees before the Mirage. Also, I had noticed, while practicing for the displays, that the 29 accelerated even at 9g at low-levels if the power was ahead of the onset of g and, therefore, required a coordinated turn with power management to stay at the optimum speed and at the desired g.

2.jpg

As a matter of fact, I used to brief and show my younger pilots that if you went up faster on the throttle than the onset of g, the aircraft would be on the higher side of the curve and would keep accelerating even at 9g. In that case, the options were only two, either reduce the power to get the speed back or pull more than 9g, the latter option being beyond the laid-down limits for the aircraft. The corollary was that, at the correct speed and with the correct technique, the 29 would keep turning at 9g at low-levels till either you conked off or till the gas ran out. I mean the gas had to run out either in you or the aircraft if you wanted to foolishly continue with such a manoeuvre for a prolonged duration. Such was the brute power of the two engines on the 29 and the thrust-weight ratio. Naturally, our rate of climb was also better. While range fuel consumptions were better for the Mirage due to the shape and the resultant profile drag apart from the weight and the single engine configuration, in combat situations, we ended up consuming almost the same fuel due to the fact that the 29 did not have to remain in the afterburner regime through out the engagement.

Pudding was naturally upset with this outcome and convinced Jeff to repeat the sortie. Jeff agreed since a couple of other parameters, particularly in initial and sustained rate of climb, had to be rechecked in any case. So next day in the green period, there we were, Pudding and I, with Vicky and Joe in the rear cockpits I think, to haul the aircraft around again and measure the figures. Quite naturally, the results were the same as before. During debrief, Pudding first started off with the proposition that we were not comparing pilots but aircraft and, therefore, instead of me, somebody else should fly the 29. While I was quite happy to let even the youngest and most inexperienced pilot fly in other tactical exercises, such 9g manoeuvring and handling the aircraft to its limits at low-levels was something that one could not leave to a lesser qualified and less experienced pilot.

I, therefore, opposed the suggestion and Jeff agreed with my view. In a lighter vein, I also made a counter-suggestion that, instead of Pudding, someone 40 Kg lighter fly the Mirage which might improve its thrust-weight ratio and thus its performance. I am sure if Pudding had been wearing slippers at that time, I would have got them immediately but since he could not easily bend down and undo his flying boots, I got away with just glares. If only looks could kill. I also remarked that the Mirage could be flown by anybody since you merely demanded the best performance from the smart fly-by-wire system. Unfortunately, with a ‘dumb’ flying control system in the 29, we needed rather smart pilots to fly it to its limits. Pudding let me off again, having known each other quite well since the early years of our flying in Hasimara/Bagdogra. Finally, it was decided by Jeff that we would do yet another trip for the instantaneous rate of turn, to be measured only through 90 degrees of turn. While we were leaving the briefing room, Joe just whispered “Dirty Harry getting dirty looks, Keep checking 6”. As may be obvious from the foregoing, we were ahead even within 90 degrees while sustaining our speeds.

Later, we got into group combat and specific missions to try out the aircraft in their designated roles, where even the most inexperienced of our lot were given the opportunity to participate, some with less than 50 hours on type. From the tales I heard in and outside the briefing room, I know they all had a lot of fun while learning DACT with a capable and experienced adversary. While I do not wish to go into individual skills and claims in this area, it may not be difficult to guess these, being typical of die-hard fighter jocks. Suffice it to say that, in these exercises, our radar, IRST, HMSD and the voice information system really proved their worth and were put to good use.

Over the two weeks, I think we all had a great time and built a good bond between the two teams and the fleets, despite all the professional rivalry. In this regard, I particularly remember ‘Fuzz’ Moulik getting quite sentimental and emotional with his course-mates and friends from the other side, particularly “Sexy” Saxena, I think, from the Mirage fleet. Those who know Fuzz will know what I am talking about. For those who do not know Fuzz well, Fuzz gets all emotional and sentimental over a couple of drinks with friends but, underlying it, one can see that he really means every word of affection and would do anything for a friend. Pudding and I remained friends, though rivals for a long time through our careers which took us on different routes. One of the young friends that I made from Mirages was Cheema, now flying for Jet Airways, and we still play golf and share a drink whenever I am in Delhi and he is not on the roster for the next day. I got to know Cheema, then a Flt Lt, in very peculiar and rather funny circumstances that I must add as the concluding episode of Ex Lightning.

images-1.jpg

The exercise got over on 14 April and the next day the Mirages were to fly back to Gwalior. Having known Pudding for so long, I invited him along with Jeff and a few others to a dinner in the best place in town those days, the Blue Diamond. The GM of Blue diamond, Rajan Kelshikar and his wife Neelu, had become real close to Malini, my wife, and me through the induction days since they were taking care of the Russian Warranty Team and catered for most big events at the base and the VIPs visiting us. With Rajan being kind enough to include me for discounts in the hotel, I could afford to invite a fairly decent number to the hotel as their farewell dinner. After a few drinks, Pudding got a little sentimental and carried away affectionately calling me by the distorted pet name he had for me from Adampur days, ‘Khappusky’, a Russian variation of the pet name I had on Hunters in Hasimara, and said that he still could not accept that the Mirage did not out-perform the 29, at least in the instantaneous rate of turn. :rotfl:

I tried to pacify him by saying things like that the Mirage was certainly a good-looking aircraft with some great qualities and systems and he should be happy that he got the beauty while I had the beast etc. Not being able to reconcile to going back in this manner, Pudding suggested that, before they ferried out the next morning, he and I should do a 1 Vs 1 to prove who was the better pilot and which really was the better aircraft in front of all the people on the base right overhead. For this, we should take off in a spectacular manner; he would take off on Runway 10 while, simultaneously, I should take off reciprocal on 28, each in our lane on the same runway, do a roll of the top and from there engage in a 1 Vs 1. Jeff was watching this conversation with a wisp of a smile and winked at me to give me encouragement.

I responded by asking pudding which Air Force he was in and that, in any case, while he could maintain his lane on take-off on the DD with its sophisticated inertial navigation system, I could barely keep the brute of a 29 on the entire runway with its two engines in full afterburner. In any case, they were supposed to ferry back quietly the next morning and the roar of three engines in full afterburner at one time would wake up even the dead and perhaps make the AOC, who was not particularly fond of me, wonder what on earth was going on, come out of his office and lynch me from the nearest tree. Why AOC Bindra was not fond of me and the good times we had together will make for another interesting story later perhaps. Pudding kept insisting on a fly-off before he left while I kept telling him to enjoy himself, his drinks and go home without such a shoot out. Jeff then told me to go ahead and take him on.

wp2000161.jpg

I, then, proposed that we take off with a break so that it sounds like two aircraft doing their own thing, perhaps an air test or something even like a take-off for ferry and time each aircraft from wheels roll. Each would then do a loop after take-off, a 360 degree turn and end with another loop, the whole sequence being timed from start to finish. The aircraft with the lesser timing would have proven its performance along with the skill of the pilots. A case of Black Label was agreed as the prize. The time would be kept by Jeff with a time-keeper from each side. Flt Lt Cheema was nominated from the Mirage fleet while, I think, Late Rathan or/and young Sandeep Singh were sent from our side to the ATC. Well, that is how I got to know Cheema well. I would not like to reveal the timings here but suffice it to say, the verdict was clearly in favor of the 29. After the event, Pudding tried to argue that timing from wheels roll was unfair since we had two engines and he took off on a single one. Guess he wanted us to be foolhardy enough to fly the routine on a single engine to be even. Even from unstick, the 29 was ahead by a vast margin for obvious reasons. AOC Bindra never found out, I guess, since he never asked me a question on this nor issued a warning. As far as I know, he did not question Jeff on this either. Pudding, before leaving, gave me the money for four bottles which we busted up in a fleet party on my birthday after a week on 23 April. The Sqn is still waiting for the remaining eight bottles. I last reminded Pudding of the remaining debt a month before he retired as the AOC-in-C WAC. In the meantime, Cheema got into the bad books of Pudding as the messenger with bad timings.

webiaf_mirage_2000.jpg

I think it must be obvious that I enjoyed the ’29 a lot, a little more than the Hunter on which also I have some very fond memories. With its superb aerodynamic qualities, ‘light-n-easy’ control forces, the reserve of power and some great and rugged systems not seen in contemporary fighters, the 29 was like a multi-million dollar sports car which I enjoyed hauling around and exploring its limits. Certainly, the beast was a beauty to handle and never let me down. Nor should it let down anyone with a good head on his shoulders. Handled and serviced correctly, I think the ’29 is one of the best fighting platforms in the world even today and should benefit by the upgrade in the IAF, if done right. I certainly wish the upgrade had come in my time but better late than never.”

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 27 Sep 2019 08:15

Low speed high alpha maneuvering where the velocity drops down radically, or use of high-alpha to bleed speed, use of TVC to change direction, can be very valuable in a variety of combat situations, provided the aircraft can rapidly regain speed, which the Flanker can, given it's two massive AL31FPs, and with an AAM loadout.

Problem is folks read one interview, jump to conclusions by extrapolating all sorts of things which weren't said, without analyzing what each platform brings to the table.

Fact is the aircrafts maneuverability, ability to drop/gain speed can be critical in the BVR arena.

Let's hold that thought for a second, you want to take a shot against an opponent and accelerate to add speed, he cranks, you crank, at this point, once the opponent missile is headed towards where it thinks you are heading, now do you want to rapidly accelerate towards the threat or dump speed, maintain guidance while increasing the relative distance, making his shot harder? Who do you think will have a harder time? The aircraft with better controllability or the one without? Your WCS then informs you the missile has crossed the MCG limit and has gone independent. Your opponents missile is also headed towards you. The best maneuver includes dashing away in say a 90 degree angle, then again, radically changing direction. The first turn, you are subsonic, are you at an advantage because you can literally turn on a dime due to TVC or not? All this while, if you have backup via an AWACS or IACCS, or a set of Su30s sitting behind you, with radars that are far longer ranged than the Mirages, you can continue to maintain situational awareness via the datalink, radio.

In the Su30, while the pilot maneuvers, his WSO can continue to maintain awareness via the RWR, the Radar feed, the datalink. Now, the only limitations here are the cranking angle (how nose away can you turn from the target while still hiding your missile in), and situational awareness when engaged in a full 90 degree or even 180 degree turn. Now you like why the Russians made the Bars take that complex gimbal, the Irbis, with that crazy repositioner, why the Su57 has cheek arrays, and why the IAF went one step ahead and wanted 360 degree AESA in its FGFA. Why, also, the Russians continue to retain TVC in the Su57, why they are still aiming to put enormous engines onto the bird, even though it already has AL41F derivatives which are quite sufficient. In BVR, it will be a handful.

Bill Sweetman (AWST) on TVC vs air combat. Watch, learn.



Similarly, those huge SAPs which the IAF wants replaced with lighter units. Has anyone even figured why they exist? The Su30s only real disadvantage, like the Eagles, is its size. It allows opponents to detect it from a distance. It makes up for this by having a radar which detects, ranges longer. However, by adding those enormous DRFM equipped SAPs, the Su30 can even take this away by forcing opponent aircraft to come closer in or have their MRAAMs fed wrong information.

Russia is actually equipping their Su30s with SAP518s.

http://www.airrecognition.com/index.php ... ience.html

The IRST info is also fused with the radar on the Su30. One of the key things that allows for successful kills is surprise. An opponent whose RWR is not active is at risk if a passive acquisition is made against him. We all saw how Abhinandan's R73E came out of the blue for a F16 that was actually thinking it was the hunter. The Su30 has long burn R27TEs, these are basically R73Es on steroids, and can literally chase down threats which have been passively locked up by the IRST. You are fighting a BVR battle, it gets to the merge, your opponent decides to scram, a conventional AAM may drop off, as the speed builds up, a missile with a 100km plus motor fired at a third of that range may very well chase your opponent down.

Then there is payload. Firing more missiles, different kinds, higher Pk, its that simple. The Su30 has 3, now 4 missiles it uses for this in the BVR/near BVR arena. A mix of long burn R27s and Astras, can be hard for any opponent. Tomorrow, you add the RVV-BD, which the Su30 can support, and you can imagine the advantage. You can now snipe from a distance at both the opponent fighters and their high value force multipliers. Then the numbers, 12x missiles vs 6 (usual Mirage one is 6 AAMs +3 DT ), and the result is the Su30 has 6 missile salvos, at 2 to a missile, or 5 if you keep 1 as a WVR one. With the Astra, you get a missile that outranges the Mica EM, and with similar seeker capability. It actually fills the 1 gap in the Su30 inventory.

Net, the MKI remains a very dangerous brawler. It like CAS Dhanoa said, will lead the charge along with the upgraded Mirages. With 250 odd airframes in the inventory, and 80% serviceability (as demonstrated in Gagan Shakti), it is a 200 strong fleet and incredibly dangerous to the PAF and PLAAF (esp. now that it has Brahmos as well).

nachiket wrote:That was a great interview with GrpCapt Vinod! Gives you an insight into why the IAF likes the M2k so much. Loved his comments about the JF-17's capabilities although I will still credit the PAF for fully backing it. Whatever its drawbacks are it provided them with a cost-effective way of replacing and augmenting their aging fleet with a decent 4th Gen fighter.

I think people are misunderstanding his comments about the Su-30. He mentions that maneuvers like the Cobra are unlikely to be used in a dogfight, which is true. That is why you never see IAF pilots performing the cobra even in airshows. It puts a lot of stress on the airframe and they are flying active airframes that need to last. Not showpieces which the Sukhoi test pilots fly in airshows. But that doesn't mean the MKI's great maneuverability is useless in a dogfight. It most definitely is not. The Americans would not have insisted that the F-22 be a good dogfighter if that was the case.

The problem is people see the Sukhois performing the Cobra and tail-slide at airshows and think that all other fighters would be completely outclassed in a dogfight, which is not the case. The M2k certainly cannot do those maneuvers but flown well it can still hold its own against a Flanker. I believe this is what GC Vinod was trying to say. The same with the STR issue. People tend to dismiss delta-winged aircraft because they have a lower STR. But STR is not the be-all and end all of ACM. I am pretty sure the Sabre had a higher STR than any of our fighters in 65 and 71 (better than the Gnat certainly). That somehow did not seem to bother our pilots when they kept shooting Sabres down.

The only surprising thing for me in the interview was his dismissal of the Viper. This is the first and only time I have seen the Viper being dismissed as "underpowered" :shock: On paper at least the F-16 has a better T:W ratio than the M2k. I'm not sure of the upgraded Paki F-16's though, because I do not know if they got new engines with the upgrade. The Block-50/52 F-16 variants are markedly heavier with CFT's, extra internal fuel and new avionics etc. and that was compensated for by more powerful engines. I don't know if the ones which the pakis upgraded got those new engines. They also bought some new built Block-52s which definitely have the new engines.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 27 Sep 2019 09:20

Rakesh wrote:Just happy to know that the IAF possesses the best of both worlds - Su-30MKI and Mirage 2000.


+ Carefully selected personnel

+ Intensive & exhaustive training

+ Constantly adaptive tactics

= A very potent force.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby manjgu » 27 Sep 2019 10:15

but one of the US pilots said SU is not v good in post stall regime... SU with its armaments etc cant do all the fancy moves, thats why the Mirage pilot said those moves are not v relevant in actual combat.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 27 Sep 2019 10:26

Again, this is why I am saying read up more about the specific capabilities beyond what a single source says. There are points out there about how concerned the USAF too was about certain elements of the Su30 MKs TVC. Obviously they wont be stupid enough to verify it, or acknowledge the leaks and hand anyone the keys to the tactics castle.

The USAF pilot comments about RedFlag were about gunfighting, and ensuring you dont get into post stall ( IAF rebutted his claims anyhow and said they had a huge lead in WVR) I am talking about something else entirely.

The Mirage pilots comments need to be kept in context, because with it's high alpha capabilities/pitchup + FBW, and light weight the Mirage 2000 can dump/gain speed rapidly too. This is one part of the trick. However, it cannot change direction as rapidly as the Su30 can. This matters as long as you are operating within the TVC envelope and can be very useful. Remember what the video says, rapid changes in direction. As regards not being able to maneuver with payload, way back in 2000, one of the stock Sukhoi prototypes took off with a full "heavy" payload (including ASMs) and did the whole super maneuverability game just to prove a point to the audience.

But skill matters, and extensive training is required. As the Su30 pilot noted as well.

You guys are not reading and understanding enough about what TVC really means and how it can be used. As Mikhail Simonov noted:

According to Mikhail Simonov, the aircraft has virtually no angle-of-attack limitations. It can fly flatwise to the air stream, with its tail forward, i. e., with 90 and even 180 deg angles of attack. It can locate targets with its radars and attack them with its weapons from any position. This feature is extremely important for both air combat and the evasion of enemy missile attacks


If you gents dont get the importance of the last point in particular vis a vis how weapons systems work, it's going to be very hard to detail it further.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_Sharma » 27 Sep 2019 11:01

manjgu wrote:but one of the US pilots said SU is not v good in post stall regime... SU with its armaments etc cant do all the fancy moves, thats why the Mirage pilot said those moves are not v relevant in actual combat.


Same Americans will tell you their fate hippo jsf can do 12G maneuver easily, same Americans will tell you their F21 loaded to Gills can outmaneuver F16 block 30. You are too hypnotized by America

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 27 Sep 2019 11:01

Add to what Karan is saying the rather incredible endurance of the flanker, which the russians keep on increasing, and it tells you a rather interesting story. The MKI is designed to outrange, outgun, outmaneuver, and outlast almost anything out there other than perhaps an all out stealth fighter, and even there it will not be as easy as one might think (see Sweetman's video). The fact that the MKIs dodged multiple Amraam hits post Balakote corroborates his points quite well.

Anyone thinking that this bird is not the Air Dominance fighter in the IAF stable, needs to get the head examined. BTW, I distinctly recall DACT within the IAF where the MKI dominated even the fulcrum in WVR, and we all know how good the latter is (read the article posted by Manish a few posts ago).

Karan M
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 27 Sep 2019 11:10

@Manish, no personal comments please. But to corroborate your point re: Red Flag, the IAF noted that its score (at Mountain Home vs the USAF F-15s using TVC) was 21:1. Clearly, Colonel Fornof was engaging in his own "My Experiments with Truth".


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