Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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Vips
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Vips » 28 Sep 2019 19:37

titash wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Karthik: We are both saying the same thing :) We cannot change the past. Rafale is the reality NOW. And it only makes sense to capitalize on that purchase. So yes, definitely more Rafales.

But at times, one has to shake their head in dismay at the stupidity of our defence procurement. The brainy guys that are our politicians and babus in New Delhi make some monumentally stupid decisions i.e. cancelling the 126 Mirage 2000 purchase for a multi-vendor competition. Or turning down the Russian offer for four Krivak Class frigates for the price of three. The fear of Bofors has scared the living daylights of our decision makers in New Delhi.

And what is happening right now is even greater stupidity - competition for 114 Multi Role Combat Aircraft. When Tejas Mk1A and Mk2 are in development. When the infrastructure investment for 36 Rafales has been made.


Admiral-ji, you are doing the babooze a dis-service here.

The object of buying annually and piecemeal from the P5 is to spread the hafta payments. Can't pay too much at one time else folks get greedy the next year, or presidents change the next year, etc.

Regular hafta payments (above the Paki Purchasing mark) keep the P5 from selling to the one nation that hates us. It also keeps UN resolutions at bay thanks to veto. The need for such payments will go away as economy hits $10 trillion, the S5 SSBNs and 6 new SSNs hit the water by 2035, and once the MK2 + AMCA mature. At that point, the only baksheesh will be for engines. Nobody f**ks with the Chinese, no matter how many ham sandwiches they make the Uighurs eat. Moral of da story - become a hard power economically + MIC wise.

Shipbuilding - check
Nuclear Weapons - check
Supercomputers - check
Ballistic Missiles - check
Torpedoes - check
SONARS - check
Radars - check
Rocket Artillery - check
Tube Artillery - check
Armored Vehicles - check (restrained by politics, not by technology)

Nuclear SSBNs - WIP, but getting close
Tactical Missiles - WIP, but getting close

Guns - can be imported; no issues

Diesel SSKs - WIP
Nuclear SSKs - WIP
Hypersonic Missiles - WIP
IR/EO sensors - WIP

IoT & AI - WIP, and lots of desi in-house capability
Cybersecurity - WIP, and lots of desi in-house capability

Engines - hmmm


Not to go OT but all this will not help in a significant way without the veto power in the UNSC. The reason nobody messes with China is not only due to the military hardware it has but because they know it is a meaningless exercise as any resolution condemning it it or proposing sanctions against it will be vetoed by China.
We do not have that surety, even it we reach $10 trillion GDP or more, our hafta to the P4 (barring China) will continue till we get the veto power at the UNSC (not happening due to China) or till the UN itself is gone the way of League of Nations and replaced with a new body with India having the Veto.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karthik S » 28 Sep 2019 22:38

Vips wrote:Not to go OT but all this will not help in a significant way without the veto power in the UNSC. The reason nobody messes with China is not only due to the military hardware it has but because they know it is a meaningless exercise as any resolution condemning it it or proposing sanctions against it will be vetoed by China.
We do not have that surety, even it we reach $10 trillion GDP or more, our hafta to the P4 (barring China) will continue till we get the veto power at the UNSC (not happening due to China) or till the UN itself is gone the way of League of Nations and replaced with a new body with India having the Veto.


Oh really? Then why do those western nationals sitting on high moral ground of democracy, hooooman rights etc don't utter a word on KSA? What position KSA holds in UNSC? What could UN do about Myanmar's treatment of rohingyas? Or Israeli settlements in west bank and others actions by Israel?

Am sorry, we yindians really love to constraint ourselves thinking about all these things. I'll be really sad if India after becoming a $10T economy still longs for some positions at UN.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Vips » 29 Sep 2019 00:16

You very well know whey KSA is not condemned. It has a value proposition (to the powers that matter) which cannot be denied or is not replaceable. Now lets be realistic - Can the same be said about India? Israel has a rock steady veto guarantee or umbrella do we have that? It is not sad but indeed a defeatist mindset if India does not work towards getting the Veto in UN or any other body replacing it as it deserves to be one with it.
Last edited by Vips on 29 Sep 2019 00:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby JayS » 29 Sep 2019 00:50

Guys this is IAF thread.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 29 Sep 2019 01:01

srai wrote:Further, SAAW, designed for swarm attack on large complexes with dispersed assets, would have been a better option for striking Balakot. Far fewer planes would have been required as more quantities in quad-pack can be carried per aircraft (i.e. 8-to-16 units) and launched from well within Indian borders (i.e. 100km range).


IAF did discuss this with DRDO in a hush-hush manner but decided to go with what they had in inventory, lower risk option which the pilots were already familiar with and which had already gone through the entire gamut of trials.
Interestingly, in 2018, SAAW was tested in full configuration mode. Indicates the system is near being offered for user trials.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 29 Sep 2019 01:31

120 odd Jaguar in service.

All will have avionics upgrades, with around 60 having the DARIN-2 upgrade, these include the first 35 odd NAVWASS Jaguars which are direct supply, equipped with the 804 engines and will be phased out. These also include the handful of IMs with the EL/M-2032 radars.

The rest will have DARIN-3, with 60 odd aircraft, of which 20 will have mechanically scanned radars, and the rest, 40 will have AESAs. All 811 equipped ones.

Shukla was right on HAL's plans.
https://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2018/05 ... -with.html

Of the IAF’s 121 Jaguar aircraft, 60 are already in DARIN 2 configuration and will be upgraded only later. The remaining 61, which are in DARIN 1 configuration, are being upgraded to DARIN 3.

Since the IAF cannot wait for Elta to begin supplying the EL/AESA 2032 radar, the first 20 Jaguars will undergo the DARIN 3 upgrade with Elta’s MSA radar. The remaining 41 will be fitted with AESA radars, when they start being supplied.




JayS wrote:Some snippets of information On Jaguars from twitter.

- The DARIN 3 Upgrade has achieved FOC now. (Been seeing them flying quite a lot last few months).
- All Jag Radars are called 2032J but there are three versions in them. The first one is the one on Maritime Strike Jag-IM ones, Second is the on the first batch of DARIN 3 (about 30% of total DARIN 3, which is approx 18 i.e. 1 full Sq perhaps. Both these are Mechanically scanned MMR versions. The second one may have some updates in its modules compared to the first one, but not sure. The Third one is going on later batch of DARIN 3 (70% of the total upgraded Jets i.e about 45 give or take a few). This one is an AESA based on 2052 but in the smaller form factor needed for Jaguars.
- As per HAL TP HVT, 40 Jags which have Adour 804 engines will retire in early 2030s (they were never part of engine upgrade). Out of the rest Jags which were to get the re-engine upgrade, Newer 35 have life till 2040-45, while the rest will retire sometime around 2035-40.

Structural life is one thing, but I hope we can maintain them that long. We are already down to buying old Jag airframes for cannibalization. We recently bought 31 of them from France for this. And then there is the question of capability obsolescence.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 29 Sep 2019 04:11

So the IAF basically has:
In service: 250 Su-30 MKIs (12.5 sq?), 66 MiG-29s (3 sq), 48 Mirage 2000s (3 sq), 117 Jaguars (6 sq), 120 Bisons (6 sq), 40 MiG-27s (2 sq), 16 Tejas (1 sq) = 656 airframes, spread across 32-33 squadrons, some understrength

Next in line to be retired: 120 MiG-21s and 40 MiG-27 Upg = 160
To be inducted: 36 Rafales, 24 + 83 Tejas, 15 Su-30 = 158 (drawdown arrested)

On plan: 12 Su-30s, 21 MiG-29s, 2 Mirage 2000s = 35 (limited build up of attrition reserves, squadron strengths for Su-30 and Mirage and also a new squadron for the MiG-29), Su30 MLU.
Also: 2+1(?) AWACS, 6 FRA

To add numbers: 114 MMRCA, 6 squadrons (probably lowered u/e of 16 airframes, 3 reserve)

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 29 Sep 2019 04:20

^^^
ACM had also mentioned in the recent HT seminar that the squadron strength is stabilizing around 30 units.

More airframes of refurbished Mirage-2000 should be acquired to fully stock up 3-squadrons for the next 15-years. Around 20 airframes.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nam » 29 Sep 2019 04:26

AMCA was suppose to replace M2000 & Mig29. Now they are been replaced by MWF.

AMCA will not be replacing Su30, as they are getting upgraded. So AMCA is an actually an add on.

In future, 250 Su30, 36 Rafale, 123 MK1, 200 MWF = 609.

Then there may be MMRCA 2(or F35/Su57) and to top it AMCA. If both are inducted, there will be atleast 200 more jets..

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 29 Sep 2019 04:28

Not all the Su-30s, even if upgraded, can be kept in service. They would have used up airframe hours and they will need replacement. So, AMCA, a prospective imported 5G type, 3-4 squadrons (either PAK-FA or F-35) will end up coming in as well.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 29 Sep 2019 04:49

As our desi avionics & munitions pick up, our capability will rise by a huge amount.

As a comparison, the IDFAF has 58 F-15s and 224 F-16s! We will have 270+ Flankers, and soon will have 152 MMRCAs and 123 LCAs, apart from the 100 Jaguars. By any standards, the IAF fleet can be formidable if properly serviced, upgraded.

The Israelis look at us, and probably shake their head at how many airframes we have, the kind of potential those airframes have and the capability we could field if we put our mind and efforts to it.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 29 Sep 2019 08:01

Karan M wrote:The Israelis look at us, and probably shake their head at how many airframes we have, the kind of potential those airframes have and the capability we could field if we put our mind and efforts to it.

And hoping we don’t fund our programs enough so they can keep making money selling us their stuff.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karthik S » 29 Sep 2019 08:13

Karan M wrote:As our desi avionics & munitions pick up, our capability will rise by a huge amount.

As a comparison, the IDFAF has 58 F-15s and 224 F-16s! We will have 270+ Flankers, and soon will have 152 MMRCAs and 123 LCAs, apart from the 100 Jaguars. By any standards, the IAF fleet can be formidable if properly serviced, upgraded.

The Israelis look at us, and probably shake their head at how many airframes we have, the kind of potential those airframes have and the capability we could field if we put our mind and efforts to it.


I think those 58 are F-15s, they also have 25 F-15 Strike Eages called Ra'am and 50 F-35s on order. Actually, Egypt, Turkey and KSA all have big air forces comparable to ours that too with modern jets.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 29 Sep 2019 08:37

Israel operates 18 F-35I Adir with another 2-3 expected to arrive in November/December. The remaining 30 odd Will be delivered at around 6 a/c per year by 2024. They’ll be placing orders for more F-35 I and F-15EX fighters to be delivered between 2024 and 2030. A triple digit fleet of F-35Is is guaranteed given the need to replace legacy Vipers and the upgraded Sufa’s. They will be the largest F-35 operator outside the US.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 29 Sep 2019 10:38

Karthik S wrote:I think those 58 are F-15s, they also have 25 F-15 Strike Eages called Ra'am and 50 F-35s on order. Actually, Egypt, Turkey and KSA all have big air forces comparable to ours that too with modern jets.


Your conclusion is off significantly in the totals vis a vis each AF (we are ahead) but the context is more important.

That's 83 Eagles vs our 270 and the 244 F-16s vs larger numbers of fighters in an equivalent class that we possess. Note, the F-16s pull both A2A and strike. We have 100 Jaguars dedicated to that purpose!
The F-35s are coming now, but even without them, the premier fighters the Israelis use for their longest ranged strikes are those Eagles. Speaks volumes about what we have, if we keep upgrading them & utilizing them well. They are ahead in datalinking, something we have yet to implement beyond the Su-30 fleet.

Coming to Egypt, they have 218 F-16s but these are deliberately limited by the US. For instance, no long range PGMs and they can only field Sparrows, not AMRAAMs or any domestic weapons. This is the reason Egypt purchased just 24 Rafales with Gulf money and plans to buy some 46 MiG-29s. In comparison, the entire IAF ASF fleet is ARH equipped. Our Rafales have SCALP, the Su-30s have Kh-59s (100km+) and will soon get Brahmos, and the Mirage 2000's have SPICE/Popeye. The Egyptians have a handful of Mirages, but they are a token force.

Turkey is again, F-16 dependent and with far fewer numbers. 240 F-16s and 40 odd F-4Es. The Turkish AF received more upto date tech but is basically a shell of its former self. Some 600 plus pilots, experienced F-16 operators were dismissed from service out of coup concerns. Erdogan has gutted the service, and who knows how long it will take to recover. Further, they are now out of the F-35 program, and while receiving the S-400 (supposedly a push to make up for capability lost via the F-16 fleets), the precarious Turkish economic situation (running on debt driven infra) will find it tough to fund their own TF-X program.
https://www.ft.com/content/ecdb3ff0-993 ... e3f882dd7b

Saudi Arabia is an interesting case. 253 Eagles, 53 Typhoons, 81 Tornados. On paper, an impressive force, especially considering their 5 Boeing AEW&C. On paper. In reality, though their warfighting has been abysmal. Dependent on expats for maintenance, and their own pilots/staff being less than stellar (to put it mildly), their airstrikes even against the Houthi (whose A2/AD capability is primitive) have been laughable. As one USN evaluator put it, despite sitting on tons of the most advanced US gear, they have been singularly unable to do much with it.
https://t.co/8XcRaBAPAn
Image

The Israeli AF remains the pre-eminent one.

Net, as a comparison, if we continue with our domestic avionics and weapons programs, Su-30 MLU/updates, add LCA & variants, plus a few more force multipliers and networking (datalinks, which is where the Israelis lead the field), the IAF is a very potent force. The lack of a fifth generation platform can be compensated for via tactics and force multipliers, till we pick one. Sooner the better though.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 29 Sep 2019 12:03

Karan M wrote:They are ahead in datalinking, something we have yet to implement beyond the Su-30 fleet.

Our Rafales have SCALP, the Su-30s have Kh-59s (100km+) and will soon get Brahmos, and the Mirage 2000's have SPICE/Popeye. The Egyptians have a handful of Mirages, but they are a token force.



Some questions Karan saar:

1. What about the ODL? Is it not fleetwide yet?
2. Do we have any numbers on which Kh-59s are being operated, IIRC there are some pretty long ranged versions ~200km
3. Do our Mirages, Jags or Rafales have ARMs? Or will they all be using the NGARM when available? IIRC the Russian types use Kh-31.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karthik S » 29 Sep 2019 12:19

Karan M wrote:Saudi Arabia is an interesting case. 253 Eagles, 53 Typhoons, 81 Tornados. On paper, an impressive force, especially considering their 5 Boeing AEW&C. On paper. In reality, though their warfighting has been abysmal. Dependent on expats for maintenance, and their own pilots/staff being less than stellar (to put it mildly), their airstrikes even against the Houthi (whose A2/AD capability is primitive) have been laughable. As one USN evaluator put it, despite sitting on tons of the most advanced US gear, they have been singularly unable to do much with it.
https://t.co/8XcRaBAPAn
Image


OT, but what a time to say that:

Ninjamonkey
@Aryanwarlord
#Houthis claim three #Saudi brigades have surrendered to #Houthi forces in #Yemen , say they will soon parade these POWs in front of the media.
What an embarrassment for #Riyadh here.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby SaiK » 29 Sep 2019 14:12

200 Astra order. Got link?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby kit » 29 Sep 2019 14:18

SaiK wrote:200 Astra order. Got link?


Wasnt there news regarding this and the new-gen Brahmos going straight to production without waiting for orders?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 29 Sep 2019 20:52

NDTV reporting last 2 of the IAF legacy Mig 29's have flown to IAF BRD at Ojhar for upgrade. Looks like Mig 29 upgrade is nearly done

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 30 Sep 2019 00:13

^^^ Indeed and here they are....the last pair.

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1178220028908335105 ---> And the last pair of the IAF’s legacy MiG-29s arrive at the 11 Base Repair Depot to be upgraded:

Image

Image

Image

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 30 Sep 2019 00:28

Good data point. That means that nearly 60 MiG-29s have already completed or are nearing completion, to the UPG standard.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby fanne » 30 Sep 2019 00:55

And contrary to earlier misinformation, not all were already upgraded. At least last two have been turned in. There could be few more in the process of being upgraded. It took good 7-8 years.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Prem » 30 Sep 2019 03:53

Did HAL/IAF ever figure out the cause of upgraded M2K Crash ? Last we heard was Black box being sent to France.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 30 Sep 2019 05:50

IAF BRD’s definitely deserve a pat on the back for the remarkable pace set to finish the Mig-29 upgrades. Also this seems to be one of the few cases where we haven’t had too much trouble with the Russian OEM regarding delivery schedules etc.

Impressive thing is this was quite an extensive upgrade - dorsal CFT, new cockpit avionics, new radar and weapons integration, the new D-29 SPJ and new engines. As extensive or perhaps more than the far more expensive yet languishing M2k upgrade.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby fanne » 30 Sep 2019 06:57

With M2K, the current issue is we cant afford to send more than 1-2 for 10 months upgrade (they are needed to fight). Hence the stretched timeline. The plan was to do 51 in 10 years, approx. 5 a year. Even that may have got impacted due to operational needs. They are still our go to planes. I think once Rafale comes in, we will se a higher pace

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 30 Sep 2019 07:50

Nice photo of the pre and post upgraded cockpits of the MiG-29. Drag & Drop picture into a new window for larger size.

https://twitter.com/PRODefNgp/status/11 ... 3018372097 --> 28 Sep 2019: No 28 Squadron's tarmac buzzed with the roars of the last two legacy MiG-29 aircraft. Aircraft were received at 11 BRD for upgrade and overhaul. To mark the historic event, Air Commodore SV Borade, AOC handed over the souvenir plaque to the Commanding Officer.

Image

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Indranil » 30 Sep 2019 08:32

End of an era.

The Mig-29s cost me dearly in my class Xth exams. My center was Airforce School, Gwalior. The Mig-29s taking off had all my attention.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 30 Sep 2019 09:00

:rotfl:

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby MeshaVishwas » 30 Sep 2019 12:23

Facepalm time.
The SM managers need to get it right.
We hit Balakot, KPK and NOT bloody Balakote, across the LC.
Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa was instrumental in planning and executing a successful strike against the terrorist camp near Balakote, which is located across POK, in Pakistan.

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1178 ... 06209?s=19

And weirdly enough, the Balakote in PoK is now missing in Google Maps.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 30 Sep 2019 13:31

If our wishes came true the LOC would have moved slightly westwards to make it disappear :wink:

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 30 Sep 2019 20:20

Indranil wrote:End of an era.

The Mig-29s cost me dearly in my class Xth exams. My center was Airforce School, Gwalior. The Mig-29s taking off had all my attention.

Wow, you were watching TACDE pilots go at it. You are indeed a lucky man!

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby manjgu » 01 Oct 2019 09:31

for the awam it dont matter if its balakote or balakot !! the fact is we crossed the LOC right into paki heartland...

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby vimal » 01 Oct 2019 09:41

MeshaVishwas wrote:Facepalm time.
The SM managers need to get it right.
We hit Balakot, KPK and NOT bloody Balakote, across the LC.
Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa was instrumental in planning and executing a successful strike against the terrorist camp near Balakote, which is located across POK, in Pakistan.

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1178 ... 06209?s=19

And weirdly enough, the Balakote in PoK is now missing in Google Maps.


Tweet has been deleted!

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Khalsa » 01 Oct 2019 12:54

Going to miss that old shape. The curve on the back, the spine was just gorgeous.

Rakesh wrote:^^^ Indeed and here they are....the last pair.

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1178220028908335105 ---> And the last pair of the IAF’s legacy MiG-29s arrive at the 11 Base Repair Depot to be upgraded:

Image

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Vips » 01 Oct 2019 19:39

Even the upgraded MIG 29 still has a lot of old style dials and just one flat display. Was hoping for a Glass Cockpit.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby JayS » 01 Oct 2019 19:54

I hate that UPG humpback fuel tanks. Ugly as buffalo.

The Original MiG29 was the true blue hotrod dog fighter. And all that maneuverability with no FBW was sheer engineering marvel. Not even Su27 could match that, in my books.

But damn, is the plane ugly or what when it comes to aero surface finish..? I wonder if someone could have built MiG29 with French built quality, what would that have looked like. :D

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 01 Oct 2019 20:04

Vips wrote:Even the upgraded MIG 29 still has a lot of old style dials and just one flat display. Was hoping for a Glass Cockpit.


Are you able to see the above pic? There are clearly two MFDs and glass-pit apart, it is also moving to HOTAS.
The pit is very similar to the one for the Algerian ones.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Sonugn » 01 Oct 2019 22:37

army has taken position in amritsar afb. also snipers in atc. some specific intel about drones being used to attack afb. via timesnow.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Nikhil T » 02 Oct 2019 01:52

^Eerily similar to Pathankot in 2016 when NSG was flown in anticipation of an attack.


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