Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1235
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Gyan » 07 Oct 2019 22:12

I feel we should order one more squadron of LCA MKI FOC to provide for any delay in LCA MKIA

Also we should go in for 21+12Su30MKI rather than mix of Mig-29s & Su-30s

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7041
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 07 Oct 2019 22:56

Kartik wrote:And the Mirages too. Till 2035 at least. The way I see it, if all goes according to plan (and I’m not counting 2 more Rafale squadrons or the AMCA), the IAF will have ~40 squadrons in 2035, but with 5-6 squadrons close to retiring (MiG-29UPG and Mirage-2000I). But with 2 possible lines of MRCA and MWF, the IAF will have been able to place orders for 5-6 squadrons, possibly split between the 2 types.

While I have no doubt that the Mirage airframes will last till then I am less certain about their engines. The Mirage upgrade did not include an engine replacement unlike for the Mig-29s. Those engines will be getting awfully long in the tooth by then and it is a single engined aircraft to compound matters. I am guessing no replacements are available either since the M53 is long out of production. We might have to buy retiring M2k's from other forces for cannibalization in the mid-late 2020's.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7608
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Indranil » 07 Oct 2019 23:48

^^^ Engine upgrades and engine replacement are two different things. As you said, the French don't have an engine to upgrade to. Albeit the engines of Mirage 2000 will be "replaced". Critical engine parts typically have 1/3rd the lifetime of the aircraft.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4435
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 08 Oct 2019 09:58

Was watching the Indian Air Force Parade on Air Force Day and saw the No.9 Wolfpack Squadron receiving Unit Citation. Discovered that it was converted into the IAF's first Aggressor unit, on 1 September, 2016. They fly Mirage-2000s and their task is to study the enemy's tactics and emulate them and impart training to other units to acquaint them with the enemy's tactics. They were also the squadron that carried out the Balakot strikes with the Mirage-2000s.

MeshaVishwas
BRFite
Posts: 300
Joined: 16 Feb 2019 17:20

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby MeshaVishwas » 08 Oct 2019 11:11

Okay the Avenger formation was epic but the star of the show remains the Tejas.
I thought that the Harvard flight was also superb.
Camerawork still needs improvement though.
SKAT and Sarang also put up an impressive show.
The Thrishul formation had a bit of an issue I believe.Rambha was unable to dispense flares on cue.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7767
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 09 Oct 2019 06:27

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 6121198593 ---> A unit citation for No 9 Squadron, Indian Air Force, "Wolfpack," the same unit that flew the Balakot operation on Mirage 2000s. Seen here - the Commanding Officer receiving the honour.

Image

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18400
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 09 Oct 2019 09:04

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 496516.cms

The Mirages were flown by Squadron Leader Bhujadey, Group Captain P. Raj and Wing Commander Basoya while the Su-30s were piloted by Wing Commander K.P. Singh and Squadron Leader Parshuram.


Same two gents who held off 4x their number on Feb 27th.

manjgu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2071
Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby manjgu » 09 Oct 2019 09:16

Karan M wrote:https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/abhinandan-leads-the-men-and-machines-that-taught-pak-a-lesson/articleshow/71496516.cms

The Mirages were flown by Squadron Leader Bhujadey, Group Captain P. Raj and Wing Commander Basoya while the Su-30s were piloted by Wing Commander K.P. Singh and Squadron Leader Parshuram.


Same two gents who held off 4x their number on Feb 27th.


sorry...the officer is Gp Capt Hansel Sequeria (OC, Wolfpacks)... he was involved with planning not actually flying.

manjgu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2071
Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby manjgu » 09 Oct 2019 09:19

the other guy is the unit SNCO ..the maintenance chap. i think its AirCdme hansel not Gp capt. Hansel is one officer to watch out as a potential high flyer in AF.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18400
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 09 Oct 2019 11:29

What are you referring to?

I am talking about the Su-30 pilots who faced off against 8 Vipers.

manjgu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2071
Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby manjgu » 09 Oct 2019 12:43

ooo.. i thought u are talking about the above posted pic...

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4255
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 09 Oct 2019 12:45

Image

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11144
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 09 Oct 2019 15:53

Does that indicate that these were the 5 fighters which detered the PAF till the Mig 21's on ORP came onto the scene on 27 Feb 19 morning, 3 upgrade Mirages and 2 Su 30 MKI's?

Kashi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3512
Joined: 06 May 2011 13:53

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kashi » 09 Oct 2019 16:24

Aditya_V wrote:Does that indicate that these were the 5 fighters which detered the PAF till the Mig 21's on ORP came onto the scene on 27 Feb 19 morning, 3 upgrade Mirages and 2 Su 30 MKI's?


I thought there were 4 aircraft - 2 x SU 30MKI + 2 x Mirage 2000.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11144
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 09 Oct 2019 16:54

Thats what I thought but seeing this formation of 3 Upgraded M-2000's (non upgraded ones were used in Balakot strike) and 2 Su 30 MKI's made me ask the question?

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7677
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby rohitvats » 09 Oct 2019 19:54

^^^As per reliable Twitter accounts, these are non-upgraded Mirage-2000.

sajaym
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 58
Joined: 04 Feb 2019 09:11

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby sajaym » 09 Oct 2019 20:20

srai wrote:[img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EGVd63-VUAEcP_M.jpg


In this pic the Su-30s almost look like some alien spaceships. I think that on 27th Feb one of the Su-30s must have made some extreme maneuver using thrust vectoring and KOE flying, to avoid the AMRAAMs fired by the Pakis. And this might have caused the Su-30 to disappear from the Paki fighter and AWACs radar screens. Only this scenario seems to explain the confidence with which Paki birathers are claiming an Su-30 kill all over the internet.


Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18400
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 09 Oct 2019 20:26

This guy is a pathetic attention seeker, who is a political opponent of the current GOI. The amount of time spent in rebutting BS is 100x the time taken to create it.

Vidur
BRFite
Posts: 164
Joined: 20 Aug 2017 18:57

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Vidur » 09 Oct 2019 21:54

manjgu wrote:the other guy is the unit SNCO ..the maintenance chap. i think its Air Cdme hansel not Gp Capt. Hansel is one officer to watch out as a potential high flyer in AF.


No the CO getting the award is a Gp Capt. Notice the 4 stripes. Air Cmde has one thick stripe. This information is kind courtesy of 'long hours' of training in reading stripes from a good friend in Air HQ . Reading army ranks is easy as they are same as police but I always struggled with IAF and Navy. So one day I invited him for dinner and broached the issue after the first round of drinks and snacks.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2499
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nam » 09 Oct 2019 22:58

sajaym wrote:
srai wrote:[img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EGVd63-VUAEcP_M.jpg


In this pic the Su-30s almost look like some alien spaceships. I think that on 27th Feb one of the Su-30s must have made some extreme maneuver using thrust vectoring and KOE flying, to avoid the AMRAAMs fired by the Pakis. And this might have caused the Su-30 to disappear from the Paki fighter and AWACs radar screens. Only this scenario seems to explain the confidence with which Paki birathers are claiming an Su-30 kill all over the internet.



I guess one way is to dive down towards the mountains. This would probably cause the Su30 to disappear from F16 radars, masked by the mountain clutter. This means no MCU for the Aim120 that was fired.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4435
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 09 Oct 2019 23:37

rohitvats wrote:^^^As per reliable Twitter accounts, these are non-upgraded Mirage-2000.


the non-upgraded Mirage-2000H have a black radome. Very easy to tell the upgraded Mirages apart from the non upgraded ones. The 3 Mirages in the picture with the 2 Su-30MKIs are upgraded Mirage-2000Is. So it does appear that 3 Mirage-2000s and 2 Su-30MKIs were involved in foiling the PAF strike formation missions.

MeshaVishwas
BRFite
Posts: 300
Joined: 16 Feb 2019 17:20

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby MeshaVishwas » 10 Oct 2019 00:09

Saar, I think RV Saar is right.
Check out the replies to this tweet:
https://twitter.com/joe_sameer/status/1 ... 16129?s=19

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7767
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 10 Oct 2019 06:16

DEMYSTIFYING THE ANTI-ACCESS/AREA DENIAL (A2/AD) THREAT
https://medium.com/@sameerjoshi73/demys ... ed26ae8b9e
10 April 2019

By Sameer Joshi - The author is an former fighter pilot with extensive experience on the Mirage 2000 and MiG 21 aircraft of the IAF. He has seen combat in the 1999 Indo Pak Kargil conflict. He writes on military subjects and his article on the Air War in Syria, won the best military aviation submission at the 2017 Paris Airshow.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7767
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 10 Oct 2019 06:31

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 9152523264 ---> Prior to Mirage-2000, Indian Air Force also evaluated Mirage F1 under Air Marshal Prithi Singh who later evaluated the Mirage-2000 Prototype-4 at Istres in Air-to-Ground and Air-to-Air Configurations.

Image

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7812
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Mort Walker » 10 Oct 2019 07:14

nachiket wrote:I hate it whenever this 114 number comes up. There is no way we can afford 114 Rafales. And the thought of buying yet another type just makes me want to bang my head against a wall.


If 78 more Rafales are purchased, given Dassault’s production capabilities and domestic manufacturing capability, it won’t be until 2030 until all 114 Rafales are operational. So the cost can be amortized over 10 years, but India will have given a foreign country nearly $30 billion which can create many jobs within India and create a lot of expertise. IMHO, the Rafale should have been dropped and LCA Tejas expedited. For that amount of money over 300 variants of the Tejas could have been procured and it would have pushed India’s GDP upward.

LakshmanPST
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 99
Joined: 05 Apr 2019 18:23

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby LakshmanPST » 10 Oct 2019 07:15

ramana wrote:Buried in this is the 36 planes need for special delivery.
So NaMo bought only those in first tranche as that's non -negotiable for triad.


So, the 36 jets bought now are bought for mainly nuke delivery...?

Manish_Sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4195
Joined: 07 Sep 2009 16:17

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Manish_Sharma » 10 Oct 2019 07:29

Actually 36 Rafale bought at this price is a steal, even Brazil paid 4.68 billion in 2015 to by single engine grippen fighter.

Now imagine how much f16 or grippen etc. will cost with military Inflation in 2025 - 26

114 mrca with ToT for production seems unaffordable. Specifically twin engine 4.75 gen Rafale. If Dassault sets up its own line seems 150 billion dollars project.

Haridas
BRFite
Posts: 535
Joined: 26 Dec 2017 07:53

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Haridas » 10 Oct 2019 12:05

venkat_r wrote:.....Big change in IAF saying no more foreign fighters. It is important to keep considerable edge over adversaries, cannot allow PAF to even think of doing what it did earlier this year, not only the numbers but the technical edge has to be significant.

IAF told that India can't have the airforce that even rich countries now find difficult to flaunt.

Here is what our means are, and now live within the limit and make best use of what we can afford.

Flying above cloud nine, IAF crashed into ceiling of reality ... ouch !

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16796
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rahul M » 10 Oct 2019 14:43

^^^
That's grossly unfair to the IAF. All they had asked for was 125 M2K, way back in 2001. Given that the LCA was still years away and the earlier MiG s were getting long in the tooth, this was an entirely rational quest to maintain IAF's combat potential at a reasonable cost.
It is hardly their fault that the babucracy converted that quest into a 2 decades long circus to choose an aircraft we can't afford.

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3307
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby kit » 10 Oct 2019 15:50

Haridas wrote:
venkat_r wrote:.....Big change in IAF saying no more foreign fighters. It is important to keep considerable edge over adversaries, cannot allow PAF to even think of doing what it did earlier this year, not only the numbers but the technical edge has to be significant.

IAF told that India can't have the airforce that even rich countries now find difficult to flaunt.

Here is what our means are, and now live within the limit and make best use of what we can afford.

Flying above cloud nine, IAF crashed into ceiling of reality ... ouch !


I think India can afford a large and capable airforce that is made in India with all its ecosystem, what it can't afford to do is purchase an airforce that is mostly made abroad.

The only time it happened was the Soviets granted loans in rupees and at subsidised rates., all those planes are now on the way out ., and the Soviets are gone.It probably was not a good thing retrospectively as it hindered India's progress in aerospace.

viveks
BRFite
Posts: 227
Joined: 17 Nov 2004 06:01

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby viveks » 10 Oct 2019 16:19

What a shot man. Lovely angle and placement.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7748
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby brar_w » 10 Oct 2019 18:19

Manish_Sharma wrote:Actually 36 Rafale bought at this price is a steal, even Brazil paid 4.68 billion in 2015 to by single engine grippen fighter.


Best to avoid an apples to oranges comparison. Brazil’s intentions with its fighter procurement program were much different and it is almost a certainty that had we seen the same data on a Rafael offer it would have been much higher (which their MOD even hinted at). Like the IAF, they too demanded about a $1 billion in specific user defined capabilities ( that don’t scale on a per unit basis) but they also wanted local industry involvement and production of nearly half of the aircraft from the first order in Brazil with the infrastructure established for it being used for all Brazilian follow on orders ( overall demand is in excess of 100 aircraft ) and potentially even foreign sales in LA. I think their defense officials have repeatedly said that the Saab offer was the lowest cost for what they wanted but regardless they could have had a much cheaper aircraft had they asked for no specific capabilities and accepted delivered straight out of Sweden. Instead, they’ve set up a base now to go and buy more aircraft next decade and beyond as and when their needs and financial capabilities align. Rafale, though more capable, won’t be able to compete head to head with the Gripen on acquisition or sustainment cost so it depends what someone is looking for..

Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2133
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Vivek K » 10 Oct 2019 21:27

Rahul M wrote:^^^
That's grossly unfair to the IAF. All they had asked for was 125 M2K, way back in 2001. Given that the LCA was still years away and the earlier MiG s were getting long in the tooth, this was an entirely rational quest to maintain IAF's combat potential at a reasonable cost.
It is hardly their fault that the babucracy converted that quest into a 2 decades long circus to choose an aircraft we can't afford.

Rahul ji - that is fair. But then why not pressure for the Qatari Mirages at least then? Of course the slowness of a corrupt system behaving like a parasite to procurements came in the way of the M2K purchase. IAF had built up facilities for 150 M2Ks. They should have forced this outcome- hindsight is easy though.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4435
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 11 Oct 2019 00:49

MeshaVishwas wrote:Saar, I think RV Saar is right.
Check out the replies to this tweet:
https://twitter.com/joe_sameer/status/1 ... 16129?s=19


I don't think so. the radome color indicates the radar on the jet. the earlier RDI radars had the black radome whereas when the RDY-3 on the Mirage-2000I was installed, the radome color changed to grey.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18400
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 11 Oct 2019 01:46

Yeah so the Mirages in this avenger formation are basically non upgrades and were the Spice, CM carriers.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7041
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nachiket » 11 Oct 2019 01:53

Vivek K wrote:
Rahul M wrote:^^^
That's grossly unfair to the IAF. All they had asked for was 125 M2K, way back in 2001. Given that the LCA was still years away and the earlier MiG s were getting long in the tooth, this was an entirely rational quest to maintain IAF's combat potential at a reasonable cost.
It is hardly their fault that the babucracy converted that quest into a 2 decades long circus to choose an aircraft we can't afford.

Rahul ji - that is fair. But then why not pressure for the Qatari Mirages at least then? Of course the slowness of a corrupt system behaving like a parasite to procurements came in the way of the M2K purchase. IAF had built up facilities for 150 M2Ks. They should have forced this outcome- hindsight is easy though.

How is the IAF supposed to force the outcome when the decision making power rests with MoD?

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4255
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 11 Oct 2019 02:47

^^^
It’s not as black or white type as both are alluding to. At various stages of procurement, each has a prime role in making a decision. One area that the IAF has control over is the specs and quantities it requires. Whereas GoI ministries (MoD, MoF and various committees) are primarily in control over fund allocation.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4435
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 11 Oct 2019 02:49

Karan M wrote:Yeah so the Mirages in this avenger formation are basically non upgrades and were the Spice, CM carriers.


What could have happened is that they may have been upgraded since the Feb 26th mission.

But the Avenger formation was the formation of Su-30MKI and Mirage-2000I fighters right? No.9 Wolfpack squadron might have had a mix of upgraded and non-upgraded fighters..the non-upgraded ones were used as Spice-2000 carriers, whereas the upgraded Mirage-2000Is were used for BARCAP missions the day after.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4435
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 11 Oct 2019 02:51

LakshmanPST wrote:
ramana wrote:Buried in this is the 36 planes need for special delivery.
So NaMo bought only those in first tranche as that's non -negotiable for triad.


So, the 36 jets bought now are bought for mainly nuke delivery...?


As long as the Mirage-2000 is in our fleet, it is the primary nuke delivery platform. I don't expect that will change any time in the 2020s. The Rafale brings a lot more to the table than just a strategic nuke delivery capability.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: rakall, rkhanna, yensoy and 58 guests