Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

[srai]

^^^
When you can dream ... dream big or wake up

[MeshaVishwas]

And booyeah! Happy weekend all!

[deejay]

And booyeah!
...
Happy weekend all!

Thank You!!! Enjoyed it.

[Rakesh]

Got this off a twitter feed. The last column is speculation, but I like this for the listing of all 42 combat squadrons. There are errors in the list (i.e. squadron and corresponding aircraft), but listing it for Sqn No and Sqn Name.

https://twitter.com/Aryanwarlord/status ... 84513?s=20 ---->

[ramana]

Rakesh you can replace MMRCA with MWF or LCAMK2

One exercise is to take that list and put the end of life for current aircraft (e.g. Mig 21s will get phased out before the Jags) and put most likely available aircraft as the follow-on.
Keep in mind affordability.

Nice list of all the 42 squadrons.

[ramana]

I have a question for anyone who knows:
When the Mig 21 Bison avionics package was developed, was a systems test done on an aircraft before it was approved for installation?

Or was it just components developed and passed their component requirements test?
In particular wrt to radio communications.

Abhibhushan saar would like your comment.

[Kartik]

Got this off a twitter feed. The last column is speculation, but I like this for the listing of all 42 combat squadrons. There are errors in the list (i.e. squadron and corresponding aircraft), but listing it for Sqn No and Sqn Name.

https://twitter.com/Aryanwarlord/status ... 84513?s=20 ---->

Nicely put together list. But a few small errors as you pointed out. For e.g. No.16 Squadron is 'Black Cobras' not 'Cobras', which is No.3 Squadron. No.29 Squadron is apparently 'Scorpios' and not 'Scorpions'. No.51 'Sword Arms' flies MiG-21 Bison as of now and should be one of the likely recipients of the Tejas Mk2.

83 Tejas Mk1A will mean 4 squadrons; so it might be that the likeliest recipients of the Tejas Mk1A will be the numberplated MiG-27 squadrons, 'Swifts' and 'Daggers' followed by current MiG-21M squadrons, 'Rapiers' and 'Hawkeyes' since those won't last much longer. Bison squadrons may go on till 2025 and then start to see them replaced by the Mk2.

Mirage-2000H should be replaced with Mirage-2000I.

[SidSoma]

Got this off a twitter feed. The last column is speculation, but I like this for the listing of all 42 combat squadrons. There are errors in the list (i.e. squadron and corresponding aircraft), but listing it for Sqn No and Sqn Name.

https://twitter.com/Aryanwarlord/status ... 84513?s=20 ---->

Nicely put together list. But a few small errors as you pointed out. For e.g. No.16 Squadron is 'Black Cobras' not 'Cobras', which is No.3 Squadron. No.29 Squadron is apparently 'Scorpios' and not 'Scorpions'. No.51 'Sword Arms' flies MiG-21 Bison as of now and should be one of the likely recipients of the Tejas Mk2.

83 Tejas Mk1A will mean 4 squadrons; so it might be that the likeliest recipients of the Tejas Mk1A will be the numberplated MiG-27 squadrons, 'Swifts' and 'Daggers' followed by current MiG-21M squadrons, 'Rapiers' and 'Hawkeyes' since those won't last much longer. Bison squadrons may go on till 2025 and then start to see them replaced by the Mk2.

Mirage-2000H should be replaced with Mirage-2000I.

The way I see it....all Mig 21 variants should be replace by Mk1A. All Jag and other variants squads by MMRCA and MK2. This will retain the balance of light/med/heavy mix.

That should leave us with Heavy 12 (Rambha), Medium 18 (Rafale (2)/MMRCA (6)/LCA MkII (12)), Light 12(tejas FOC(2), Tejas Mk1A (10)

That would leave us with a good number of Tejas variants (24 squads x 20 = 480 ). This pipe has some powerful stuff .... (slinks away to the corner)

[chetonzz]

Sorry for mango man Q; apart from bisons, are mig-21s still in active service? I hope not...i love bisons...

[srai]

^^^
Active (current plans calls for retirement by 2025 ... will be a gradual drawdown over the next few years)
6 x MiG-21 Bisons

Possibly still around (revised plans were to be retired by 2019 or so):
2 x MiG-21 Bis

And then there are still some MiG-21 trainers around.

[Karan M]

We need new fighters. As much as we want indigenization, till HAL ramps up LCA Mk1A production, we are waiting for it.
Get some F-16s or whatever, of which at least 30-40% can be delivered asap. A dual conflict with Pak, PRC is right around the corner as PRC lashes out.

And the fiscal cap needs to be relaxed so the Rupee budget for indigenous procurement continues unabated as well. Use the RBI. This steady modernization stuff is not going to be enough given how the utter crooks in the previous admin hollowed out the force.

[sudeepj]

If the balloon were to go up this year, the airframes we need will be of the types we already have a lot of experience operating. Mig29s, Sukhois, Jags, and dare I mention my personal favorite, Mig21 Bison!! Even spanking new rafales will be hard to use operationally! A new type being inducted in the middle of a conflict will be a rather new scenario!

[srai]

+1
Short-term (until MWF in numbers) get more of existing types and outfit them with fleet standard upgrades:

2nd hand
1 sqdn x MiG-29 (21 available)
1 sqdn x Mirage-2000 (from global)

New built
1 sqdn x Su-30MKI

Follow-on orders for Incoming types
4 x LCA Tejas MK.1 FOC /Mk.1A
2 x Rafale

That should be good enough to stabilize the fleet until 2030 at least.

[srai]

^^^
On a budget, follow-on order for another 83 Tejas Mk-1A (4 squadrons) would be the most prudent measure to shore up the numbers.
Cost = $5.2 billion

Setup another assembly line under a public-private partnership. Capacity of at least 8 units/year. Perfect alignment for MWF production run.

[Cain Marko]

In terms of getting quick numbers, is it possible to lease birds from the USAF/USN reserves/oldish stocks? Just wondering onlee...

[Cain Marko]

+1
Short-term (until MWF in numbers) get more of existing types and outfit them with fleet standard upgrades:

2nd hand
1 sqdn x MiG-29 (21 available)
1 sqdn x Mirage-2000 (from global)

New built
1 sqdn x Su-30MKI

Follow-on orders for Incoming types
4 x LCA Tejas MK.1 FOC /Mk.1A
2 x Rafale

That should be good enough to stabilize the fleet until 2030 at least.

Where could we source more M2Ks from? Taiwan? UAE? Qatar? All of these are dash 5 std iirc. Get as many as possible after a quick refurb. The numbers are crucial.

This is probably the best/fastest way to get numbers inducted and in the air ASAP. Maybe get some Su-30SMs (MKI) meant for Belarus or Russia if it is harder to come up with M2ks.

[Prithwiraj]

New types, weapon systems, supports, training etc. What happened to that mothballed mig-29 deal? Is it still on? Also Qatari M-2000 ? Given state sponsor Al-Jazeera being so anti- India I doubt that will happen. Qataris are very deceptive. At-UAE vetoed OIC (Pakistani) move against India for Kashmir

[Prithwiraj]

Also Su-30 MKI without a proper long range capable BVR Missile will keep on getting exposed to much smaller jets with better weapons package. We just cant keep on ramping up numbers but not focus on giving them proper teeth

[abhik]

New types, weapon systems, supports, training etc. What happened to that mothballed mig-29 deal? Is it still on? Also Qatari M-2000 ? Given state sponsor Al-Jazeera being so anti- India I doubt that will happen. Qataris are very deceptive. At-UAE vetoed OIC (Pakistani) move against India for Kashmir

My BP goes up every time I see this mentioned. Those are mothballed airframes, why would you buy those at a price nearly same as new ones, especially of a type with uptime issues and going to be phased out with in a decade anyway?

Re the gulf states the max I think we can expect is that they stay aloof from any conflict with the Pakies - which is quite is quite a step up for us from previous wars. Else they would have 200-300 of the most TFTA 4+ gen jets money can buy, plus Unkil's near unlimited supply. IMO at present the only major player who can come to the aid of the Pakies are the turks who have a pretty deep bench of f-16s and decent number of their own weapons.

[basant]

More midair refuellers, UAVs

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is set to launch a Request for Proposal (RFP) for six midair refuelling planes, even as it works to bolster its Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) fleet with fresh inductions and upgrades, Air Chief Marshal R.K.S. Bhadauria has said.
...
Specifications for midair refuellers ready
...
He also said the IAF is not in favour of “rigid theaterisation” of the defence forces, which he claimed would divide the “already scarce IAF combat assets and effort”. However, he clarified that the IAF is not against integration.
...

[basant]

Not sure if this was posted earlier.

Ministry of Defence inks Rs 1,200 cr contract to boost electronics sector

...
This upgrade of navigational aids and infrastructure allows air operations by military and civil aircraft even in poor visibility and adverse weather conditions, while also enhancing flight safety.

The 30 air bases already modernised under MAFI-1, include eight along the Sino-Indian border. Their upgraded infrastructure now allows aircraft to take off and land in visibility as low as 300 metres.

This could generate crucial combat air support for ground forces battling in bad weather conditions.

Only major commercial airfields provide better facilities than what MAFI offers. The Category III ILS in airports like Delhi can guide aircraft to land in zero visibility.

The IAF’s and navy’s new aircraft C-130J Super Hercules, C-17 Globemaster III, Sukhoi-30MKI, MiG-29K and the Rafale (when it enters service) would be able to utilise the full potential of MAFI. Older aircraft like the MiG-21s don’t have on-board electronics needed for utilising MAFI instrumentation. The MAFI upgrade will be good news also for commercial air operations, when they resume after the Covid-19 lockdown.

...

The pace of work under MAFI is constrained by the fact that only 5-6 operational air force bases can be out of action at any give time. Only when work on these is completed, can TPSED begin working on a fresh batch of air bases.
...

[srai]

^^^
What are being done under MAFI?

[Shubham]

TPSED is contracted to install a few new and latest nav AIDS like ILS (iirc Cat 2)/DME/VOR, corresponding Airfield lighting, better controls in ATC, maybe newer weather instrumentation etc.

Basically it will allow aircraft to operate in slightly more unfavorable weather wrt what is possible today.

[MeshaVishwas]

Zhuk M2E for the UPG?

Source: https://reddit.app.link/eKOLEKEDX6

[Karan M]

No-19M Topaz

[Kartik]

We need new fighters. As much as we want indigenization, till HAL ramps up LCA Mk1A production, we are waiting for it.
Get some F-16s or whatever, of which at least 30-40% can be delivered asap. A dual conflict with Pak, PRC is right around the corner as PRC lashes out.

And the fiscal cap needs to be relaxed so the Rupee budget for indigenous procurement continues unabated as well. Use the RBI. This steady modernization stuff is not going to be enough given how the utter crooks in the previous admin hollowed out the force.

Won't happen unless Modiji takes an incredibly bold step to go and do a FMS with the US or orders 36-48 Rafales soon.

Neither of which are likely.

[brar_w]

We need new fighters. As much as we want indigenization, till HAL ramps up LCA Mk1A production, we are waiting for it.
Get some F-16s or whatever, of which at least 30-40% can be delivered asap. A dual conflict with Pak, PRC is right around the corner as PRC lashes out.

And the fiscal cap needs to be relaxed so the Rupee budget for indigenous procurement continues unabated as well. Use the RBI. This steady modernization stuff is not going to be enough given how the utter crooks in the previous admin hollowed out the force.

Won't happen unless Modiji takes an incredibly bold step to go and do a FMS with the US or orders 36-48 Rafales soon.

Neither of which are likely.

I don’t think either of those platforms can deliver on a very accelerated timeline. F-16 production line is spooling up and the first couple of jets will be tested and certified given a new line. Plus they already have customers assigned and production rate is going to be limited. Rafael likewise is at low rate and the French have already offloaded all of their quota to export so there aren’t anymore slots to give. F-15 and F-35 ( Turkish F-35 and negotiating with Qatar to pick up F-15 slots) are probably the most flexible but then training, infra etc will still be limited and take time..Russians too can probably offload a bunch of slots given their economic priorities.

[Rakesh]

DRDO Must Find A Way Of Building A Suitable Fighter Engine In Partnership For Future Aircraft: Indian Air Force Chief RKS Bhadauria
http://www.businessworld.in/article/DRD ... 20-193517/
29 May 2020

Again, amid the clashes and burning threat at LAC in Ladhak, IAF’s front line fighter jet Su 30 MKI scrambled & reverberated as it did during the Balakot air strike. But it is time to address capability gap too. While the first LCA Tejas Mk-1 in Final Operational Clearance standard got inducted into No. 18 ‘Flying Bullets’, 83 MK-1A version will be a force majeure. But greater challenges remain for 450 jets, Gen 5+ AMCA & capability for jet engine at the heart of indigenization. In an exclusive interaction, Chief of Indian Air Force, Air Chief Marshal R.K.S. Bhadauria, speaks with BW Businessworld’s Manish Kumar Jha on the critical steps and the thrust on R&D in aerospace.

Q. Is there any plan for budget cut for the IAF due to economic fallout? What platforms are being prioritized to be inducted or ordered? How will IAF base its demand between security and budget?
A. Pending the receipt of revised budget estimates, we are targeting a 20-25% savings in the revenue expenditure, as a first step. On capital expenditure, our highest priority lies with the contract for 83 LCA MK1A. Additionally, we are in the process of prioritizing our critical requirements, weapons and technologies like the air to air missiles, air to ground precision weapons, networking, data linking etc. We are working towards industry critical capabilities and minimizing the impact of budget constraints on modernisation.

Q. Our quest for Atma Nirbhar Bharat in defence will not materialize if we just put ~ 6% of the defence budget to our sole DRDO while China puts about 15 to 20 % into their R&D. As a chief of IAF, how do you look at such fundamental flaws? What do you suggest as time has come to address such gaps?
A. Funding for DRDO R&D has been increasing yearly and is based on projections by DRDO itself. The DRDO plans its future R&D based on a Technology Development Roadmap worked out in consultation with the services and its own assessments. I have no doubt that there is a strong case to enhance indigenous R&D by DRDO in niche technologies. DPSUs and the private sector need to increase their emphasis on R&D. R&D is fundamental to successful indigenization, suitable product development and import substitution. First step should be to focus the available budget on high prioritization of niche technological areas.

Q. The MMRCA 2.0 is all about building the complex aerospace ecosystem, leveraging on the full scale ToTs with leading FOEMs and that build up ADA (DRDO) and future AMCA as well. Why do we intend to delay the project of national importance- for security & defense economy?
A. All major platform procurements where the numbers required are high will be Make in India be it Tejas Mk IA, Tejas Mk II, MRFA or AMCA. The MRFA programme will be fully Make in India and will significantly benefit future Indian projects by infusing cutting edge technologies into the domestic industry. After receiving initial responses to the RFI and having detailed discussions with all vendors the SOC is under finalization. In order to suitably energise and support the development of a complex aerospace ecosystem, I strongly feel all the projects have a big role to play. Therefore our major focus on 83 LCA followed by LCA Mk II & AMCA is parallel to MMRCA 2.0 as you put it.

Q. You recently outlined the 450 fighter jets in a decade. India has own fighter jets- LCATejasMK1a while 4+ Gen concept-Tejas Mk 2 and 5+ Gen- AMCA are on drawing board. And, keeping HAL’s sporadically delivery, first squadron of MK IA is expected in 2025. How will we achieve the strength of 42 squadron?
A. Involvement of the DPSUs, private sector and MSMEs effectively by putting in place modern production facilities would be essential to ramp up delivery of fighter aircraft and other platforms and systems. The key to increase in numbers lies in successful and rapid establishment of a comprehensive aviation ecosystem.

Q. Estimated a more than thousand engine for the fighter jets for ambitious projects-Tejas variants & futuristic AMCA -- IAF has spoken of indigenously built engine which has not taken off. Why don’t we leverage our partnership with friendly countries & make it happen in India?
A. Design and manufacture of a modern fighter jet engine is a highly complex, expensive and niche capability. Kaveri project has not succeeded in delivering an engine for fighter aircraft and IAF is not insisting on this indigenous engine. DRDO must find a way of building a suitable fighter engine in partnership and this is the initial path to success of future aircraft programmes.

Q. Directed Energy/Lasers are the weapon of future for fighter aircraft –manned and unmanned. How are we leading in R&D in this area?
A. Directed Energy or Lasers are important technologies for IAF’s future platforms and weapon systems. We are looking at this capability and are supporting measures to develop such key enabling technologies.

Q. The critical role of IAF is always up and visible in immediate response against the concurring attacks. But equally is the concern for China building stealth jets like J20 & J31 with large numbers and developing jet engines and helping Pakistan build up air strength. Will the gap be much wider with China in terms of aerospace superiority in times ahead?
A. Technological asymmetry does not remain constant and varies in different spheres with the advantage shifting depending on development and procurements. Increasing Chinese technological capability is an outcome of their sustained efforts in R&D. The IAF is working closely with DRDO and others to close the gap on these technological asymmetries. A progressive increase and improvement in our combat aircraft force enablers, sensors, weapons and network centric operations capability should help us address our assessed threats in the future. Indigenization of R&D and production is the key for our future capacity building.

[Vamsee]

What Holds Back Indian Military Aviation Development – Historic Perspective By a Retired Surgeon

=======

Our own Shiv garu wrote it. The above touches the same points Shiv garu made in this BRF thread long back in 2012 (Must read thread for new BRFites) ==> Link


--Vamsee

[Mort Walker]

We need new fighters. As much as we want indigenization, till HAL ramps up LCA Mk1A production, we are waiting for it.
Get some F-16s or whatever, of which at least 30-40% can be delivered asap. A dual conflict with Pak, PRC is right around the corner as PRC lashes out.

And the fiscal cap needs to be relaxed so the Rupee budget for indigenous procurement continues unabated as well. Use the RBI. This steady modernization stuff is not going to be enough given how the utter crooks in the previous admin hollowed out the force.

Won't happen unless Modiji takes an incredibly bold step to go and do a FMS with the US or orders 36-48 Rafales soon.

Neither of which are likely.

It would have been best to place an order for 83+83 Tejas Mk1A as part of the stimulus package and add an additional line for Tejas production. There isn't much which can be done now for dual TSP-Chinni conflict. Better to invest at a war footing now for the next crisis to come which will be months or a couple of years away. Not only will it cost less money, but less lives lost. I think it is entirely possible to raise 2 squadrons of Tejas Mk1A in a year if that investment came today. It may cost $6 billion for these two squadrons, but the remaining 126 will be less than $75 million each.

[mody]

Additional order for Tejas MK1A, need not be 83 nos. We may not need an additional 10 two seat trainers, apart from the 18 that we are going to get. (8 as part of 1st order of 40 MK1 and 10 as part of 83 MK1A). Plus we have the PV5 and 6, which are being used for training currently. So a total of 20 2 seat trainers.

Increasing the proposed order of 83 MK1A, by an additional 72 single seat MK1A will suffice. Total order of 145 single seat MK1A and 10 dual seat MK1-FoC. Will give us 8 squadrons of MK1A, plus 2 squadrons of MK1. Would be able to replace all the Mig-21 and Mig-27 squadrons. An additional assembly line to increase the production rate to 24-30 planes per year.

[srai]

Even 40-60 units of SPORT variant would be welcome! The HAL 3rd-line seems geared up for trainer production.

Would love to see resurrection of number plated 2 squadrons of MiG Operational Flying Training Unit (MOFTU) as Tejas Operational Flying Training Unit (TOFTU)!

[narmad]

https://twitter.com/shukla_tarun/status ... 33154?s=19

One of Air India's @Boeing 777 will now be Indian Air Force One.

First look pic said to have been taken by Andy Golf per @dipalay.

FR says plane flew San Bernardino to Fort Worth in US yesterday : VT-ALW.

Livery could have been catchy, very basic. @pmoindia.

#incoming https://t.co/BYfjZNSRtD

[nam]

We will not be getting any fighters in accelerated delivery. Not to mention the fact that a new type like F16 would take couple of year to work out to ops and ground tempo.

It might be easier to to make a deal with the Trump man and get USAF F16/F35 deployed away from public glare, if the balloon goes up. They can run night ops, knock off any incoming Chini packages within our border. While IAF goes in to Tibet.

[basant]

We will not be getting any fighters in accelerated delivery. Not to mention the fact that a new type like F16 would take couple of year to work out to ops and ground tempo.

It might be easier to to make a deal with the Trump man and get USAF F16/F35 deployed away from public glare, if the balloon goes up. They can run night ops, knock off any incoming Chini packages within our border. While IAF goes in to Tibet.

No offense, but this reminds me of Nehru's plan during 1962 war! We shouldn't forget the role JFK played in stalling China. At the moment it is more likely that China will help Pak than US helping us.

[ldev]

We will not be getting any fighters in accelerated delivery. Not to mention the fact that a new type like F16 would take couple of year to work out to ops and ground tempo.

It might be easier to to make a deal with the Trump man and get USAF F16/F35 deployed away from public glare, if the balloon goes up. They can run night ops, knock off any incoming Chini packages within our border. While IAF goes in to Tibet.

No offense, but this reminds me of Nehru's plan during 1962 war! We shouldn't forget the role JFK played in stalling China. At the moment it is more likely that China will help Pak than US helping us.

brar-w (very knowledgeable about US military matters) has posted elsewhere that the most flexibility for quick delivery of US fighters is for the F-15 and F-35, not the F-16. I doubt that India will go for a knee jerk purchase like that though.

And the best way the US can help is to cause a diversion in the South China Sea and/or the Taiwan Straits.

[srai]

nam,

If India does what you propose, no one will respect India nor its leaders. Forever be seen as a weak state.

Once US sets foothold, do you think they will walk away just like that. It would be beginning of yet another “colonization” of India. Be careful what you wish for!

[jpremnath]

Can't believe seasoned members of BRF hoping for US intervention and overnight purchase of F16s...3rd biggest military budget, overwhelming superiority in numbers and this what we feel..
Have to give it to the pakis...With a fraction of our budget and equipment, they show more b***s. If our sacred borders are breached, we should be going all out in pushing them off or die trying.

[brar_w]

I doubt that India will go for a knee jerk purchase like that though.

And the best way the US can help is to cause a diversion in the South China Sea and/or the Taiwan Straits.

Unless you have the type in service, you can't really make it work on a extremely accelerated schedule. There is training, infrastructure investments etc that need to happen for an acquisition to actually be operationalized. The only way I see this scenario work is if the MOD picks up Flankers or Fulcrums (or used French Rafale's even) because those types are already in the inventory or the ball is rolling in terms of getting them into the inventory. If you expand the window to 3-5 years then you have a lot more options. But anything short of a couple of years probably means existing types that have an installed base and a local technical (pilots and maintainers) know how. For the most part, you go to war with the capability you have..so better to focus on tactics and have faith in the IA and IAF training and discipline than to expect any breakthrough urgent procurement (apart from weapons and other supporting materials) to come into play in any significant way.

[basant]

I doubt that India will go for a knee jerk purchase like that though.

And the best way the US can help is to cause a diversion in the South China Sea and/or the Taiwan Straits.

Unless you have the type in service, you can't really make it work on a extremely accelerated schedule. There is training, infrastructure investments etc that need to happen for an acquisition to actually be operationalized. The only way I see this scenario work is if the MOD picks up Flankers or Fulcrums (or used French Rafale's even) because those types are already in the inventory or the ball is rolling in terms of getting them into the inventory. If you expand the window to 3-5 years then you have a lot more options. But anything short of a couple of years probably means existing types that have an installed base and a local technical (pilots and maintainers) know how .

So true. 1965 is a case in the point. I read several opinions on how Pakistan had much better equipment (Patton tanks with night-fighting capability, heavy guns, missile equipped fighters unlike IAFs', submarines, etc) but then they attacked even before they learnt how to really exploit the equipment to the best. Of course there were other problems as well, but the lack of proper doctrines with the new equipment was also one of the problems.

Nehru's plan during 1962 was was to actually request USAF to lend equipment and pilots to fight for India. The less said of it, the better.