Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 22 Jun 2020 07:24

ldev wrote:It is a question of the price value equation that is adequate to be superior to the PLAAF and PAF as of now. It is not about absolute superiority. Any 4th gen aircraft Rafale included is a stop gap until the IAF gets a true 5th gen stealthy fighter if HAL can deliver the AMCA or some other 5th Gen. It is also a question of delivery when needed. Wars do not wait for the IAF to be ready for them or for Dassault to deliver Rafale to the IAF. As they say perfection is the enemy of the good. Yes, the Rafale is the perfect fighter the IAF always wanted. But today we have war clouds on both horizons. Where is the Rafale?

Assuming the GOI signed a deal with LM, instead of Dassault, for 36 F-16IN (the version that was offered in MMRCA 1.0) how many of them would have joined the IAF now? Senior LM executives have all said that the first batch of aircraft will be delivered three years after the contract is signed. That is no different from what Dassault did. Contract was signed in Sept 2016 and the first batch was handed over to the IAF in Oct 2019. And again as per contract, the first batch was due to arrive in May of 2020. That was been delayed by two months and delivery is now set for July 2020.

And yes...wars do not wait for the IAF to be ready for them or for LM to deliver F-16 to the IAF :)

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 22 Jun 2020 07:45

ldev wrote:
ramana wrote:I think the IAF in its planning for airplane procurement did not realize that China would loom so early as a threat.
Here we need to understand the long delays and political forces rearing their ugly hoods again. Hence the emergency purchase of planes from Russia.
Same IAF sneered at HAL offer to continue making 40 Su-30MKIs two years ago saying they had enough of those planes.

Would rank as a Kalidasa move if it did not jeopardize national security.

Some planners wanted US planes without realizing even USAF has to wait 3 to 4 years once contract is placed!


At the risk of repeating myself I will say that for the same $8.5 billion that the IAF spent on the 36 Rafale, none of which have yet hit the ground, they could have 72 F-16s, pricing estimate based on the Taiwan deal for 66 with AMRAAM 120-Ds. And unlike Dassault which has limited production capacity, IMO LM would have delivered at least 36 or more as of today. At least that is what I believe. brar-w has the final say on that. And the F-16s would have served as a perfectly adequate stop gap until the IAF was ready for a true 5th Gen whether AMCA or eventually the F-35.

Yes, the limitation would have been extra payments for customizing to integrate the Brahmos NG and Astraa and that also subject to radar source codes being shared. But bottom line is the IAF would have been better off.

And the lack of AWACs is as big a negative. Netra should have been mounted on another 6 platforms by now.

As of now IMO the IAF will hold a defensive line in air to air and it should largely succeed if the lessons of the day after Balakot have been learnt. It will not be able to dominate specially if facing a combination of PAF F-16s and PLAAF J-10Cs.


This won't happen. And it was the right thing to do.
Any US arms ally is a vassal state. We did not fight the Mughals and British to fall to US in 70 years because a lizard comes and pees in our moru kulumbu.

This pipe dream won't happen.
So next.

If anyone recalls US incited Saddam Hussain to attack Kuwait to make the Arabs embrace.
How do we know the same has not happened wrt China?

I still haven't reconciled with the Crisis Games where the Pentagon played War game to help Pakistan plan 1965 war.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 22 Jun 2020 08:01

I don’t think ldev will risk repeating himself :lol:

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ldev » 22 Jun 2020 08:02

ramana wrote:
This won't happen. And it was the right thing to do.
Any US arms ally is a vassal state. We did not fight the Mughals and British to fall to US in 70 years because a lizard comes and pees in our moru kulumbu.

This pipe dream won't happen.
So next.

If anyone recalls US incited Saddam Hussain to attack Kuwait to make the Arabs embrace.
How do we know the same has not happened wrt China?

I still haven't reconciled with the Crisis Games where the Pentagon played War game to help Pakistan plan 1965 war.


Apache 64E with Hellfire already deployed in Ladakh.
P8 with Harpoon
C-17 and C-130 for the current airlift demands into Ladakh
C-130 for special ops
GE-414 for Tejas
COMCASA, LEMOA and soon BECA
M-777 howitzers

Is India a vassal state?
Last edited by ldev on 22 Jun 2020 08:07, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ldev » 22 Jun 2020 08:03

Rakesh wrote:I don’t think ldev will risk repeating himself :lol:

Surprised? :)

Look, bottom line is that the IAF needs aircraft/missiles that are superior to the PLAAF and PAF.

I have also said earlier as to how and why did HAL opt for the ELTA 252 radar for the Tejas? Because it was the lowest cost AESA radar bidder? MBDA had said clearly to get a European radar if the IAF wanted the Meteor on the Tejas. But HAL chose Elta. If they had chosen the RBE-2 from Thales the existing Tejas squadron would have had the Meteor. Imagine that. A Tejas squadron with the Meteor able to outdistance the AMRAAMs with the PAF and the PL-15 with the PLAAF? And Thales would have been more than happy to have 83 Tejas to service in addition to the Rafales. And the IAF would have been happy that they got the Tejas with the Meteor missile. Imagine the difference tht would have made with the situation that the IAF faces today on both borders.

So the issue is not about US aircraft or French aircraft. It is about ensuring that the IAF has the aircraft and the weapons to dominate it's adversaries and making procurement decisions to ensure that.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 22 Jun 2020 09:01

ldev
...

COMCASA, LEMOA and soon BECA
...
Is India a vassal state?


Hm ... every major weapon deal US is making India sign a new “pact” written by them to give them more and more access and rights. The march towards “vassal state” has begun ...

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby darshan » 22 Jun 2020 09:09

srai wrote:
ldev
...

COMCASA, LEMOA and soon BECA
...
Is India a vassal state?


Hm ... every major weapon deal US is making India sign a new “pact” written by them to give them more and more access and rights. The march towards “vassal state” has begun ...

All is fine as long as the political leadership achieves all the objectives and gets the world order to be changed such that these Trojan horses become irrelevant. But this being IAF thread, dropping ball after ball when it comes to LCA, that dream to change the world order would not materialize and the present political leadership would expire before the Trojan horses being made irrelevant.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 22 Jun 2020 09:22

ldev wrote:Surprised? :)

With you there is no surprise. I know what to expect :lol:

ldev wrote:I have also said earlier as to how and why did HAL opt for the ELTA 252 radar for the Tejas? Because it was the lowest cost AESA radar bidder? MBDA had said clearly to get a European radar if the IAF wanted the Meteor on the Tejas. But HAL chose Elta. If they had chosen the RBE-2 from Thales the existing Tejas squadron would have had the Meteor. Imagine that. A Tejas squadron with the Meteor able to outdistance the AMRAAMs with the PAF and the PL-15 with the PLAAF? And Thales would have been more than happy to have 83 Tejas to service in addition to the Rafales. And the IAF would have been happy that they got the Tejas with the Meteor missile. Imagine the difference tht would have made with the situation that the IAF faces today on both borders.

How is anything you have said above translate into fighters available for the IAF right now? As I mentioned to Ramana-ji, if and when the balloon goes up tomorrow....the IAF will have to fight with what it has at present. No Rafale or F-16 (that may come) is going to change that fact.

If 36 Rafales/F-21s had joined the IAF in 2016, then the situation would be different. But that is not the case right now, is it? Unlike F-21 and Rafale, the situation on the border is happening right now. What is there right now?

And this 83 Tejas order you are referring to is the Mk1A variant of which none exist. One (or perhaps more) of the LSPs is being outfitted with Mk1A kit, but that bird has not even flown yet. Again, the situation on the border is happening right now. What Tejas with AESA radar and Meteor missile are you talking about?

Bringing up hypothetical scenarios about F-16 instead of Rafale and Tejas with Meteor is nice when there is no conflict at the border. Does India have that luxury right now?

ldev wrote:So the issue is not about US aircraft or French aircraft. It is about ensuring that the IAF has the aircraft and the weapons to dominate it's adversaries and making procurement decisions to ensure that.

You are talking about events that will just “begin” to address the issues of squadron shortage in three years and that is assuming the Govt signs a deal on June 22nd. Even an order of 36 more Rafales will begin to arrive only in 2023 and be complete by 2025/2026. Even LM will not do any different.

What can be done right now is to improve the serviceability of the aircraft presently in service, ramp up production of the Astra Mk1 (there is no Mk2 that has even been test fired as of yet) and order more AAMs from the country that you dislike —> Russia :)

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 22 Jun 2020 09:42

^^^
Agree.

Indian armed forces have been stocking up the last few years for short intense conflict. I forget but it was like 10-days or something like that. For short duration, it is possible to attain very high serviceability rates.

Replacements for attritions and depleted stocks would require planning, orders, production, and ongoing deliveries well before any conflict.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ldev » 22 Jun 2020 10:05

Rajnath Singh’s Russia visit: India to urge Russia to rush delivery of S-400 system

S400 delivery delayed from October 2020 to December 2021.

Chinese defence minister Wei Fenghe will also be in Moscow at the same time (engine tech agreement) as Rajnath Singh to attend the Victory Day Parade.

Will the Russians be won over by India or China in Moscow?

Rakesh wrote: from the country that you dislike —> Russia :)


Now you know why I dislike them. 14 month delay in the S400 delivery after the bulk of the payment has been made to them. Why am I even surprised at the delay. Not as if we have never seen it before. And then the Indian and Chinese Defence Ministers both in Moscow to deal with the Russians. Hey, the Russians are happy. supply both sides of the conflict.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 22 Jun 2020 10:42

ldev
...

14 month delay in the S400 delivery after the bulk of the payment has been made to them.

...


Contracts are paid per specified timelines as per milestones achieved and as per signed agreements. Payment or delivery delays can also trigger penalty clauses. Do you know how much has been paid already?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ldev » 22 Jun 2020 10:47

srai wrote:
ldev
...

14 month delay in the S400 delivery after the bulk of the payment has been made to them.

...


Contracts are paid per specified timelines as per milestones achieved and as per signed agreements. Payment or delivery delays can also trigger penalty clauses. Do you know how much has been paid already?


The article says the bulk of the funds have been paid. So definitely more than 50%.

The bigger issue is not penalties but the urgency with which the system is needed. Like right now. The Russians have some large number of S400 regiments delivered to the Russian Air Force. Why can't India get a system or two delivered from their stock?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cyrano » 22 Jun 2020 10:48

srai saab, this is not the first time the Russians have slipped on delivery timelines. Have there been instances where they have paid penalties in the past?

In the present situation, penalty money in lieu of timely delivery is the last thing we want.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 22 Jun 2020 11:10

ldev wrote:The bigger issue is not penalties but the urgency with which the system is needed. Like right now. The Russians have some large number of S400 regiments delivered to the Russian Air Force. Why can't India get a system or two delivered from their stock?


Because ours will be non-standard. They will have all instructions, command and control equipment in english. India specific modifications in gear.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Mort Walker » 22 Jun 2020 11:15

Karan M wrote:
ldev wrote:The bigger issue is not penalties but the urgency with which the system is needed. Like right now. The Russians have some large number of S400 regiments delivered to the Russian Air Force. Why can't India get a system or two delivered from their stock?


Because ours will be non-standard. They will have all instructions, command and control equipment in english. India specific modifications in gear.


The S400 will only become operational in India somewhere in late 2022 at the earliest - if it comes in Dec. 2021. The Russians have always reneged on contracts. They will provide details of the S400 operational limitations to the Chinese who will then promptly pass it on to the Pakis. They're playing both sides in this conflict. Untrustworthy buggers after the dissolution of the USSR.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 22 Jun 2020 11:18

amar_p wrote:srai saab, this is not the first time the Russians have slipped on delivery timelines. Have there been instances where they have paid penalties in the past?

In the present situation, penalty money in lieu of timely delivery is the last thing we want.

:(( True

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 22 Jun 2020 11:33

Knowing all that who is to blame for the long delay in awarding the contract?
S400 had been talked about since 2010.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 22 Jun 2020 12:25

Let us see... Right now it is Indian jugaad more than anything else that'll save the day were the s**t to hit the punkha...

Let us see.... Things that could be game changers
A2A...bmos as anti aew, Astra and derby ER on Tejas and mki

Su30 as tanker and mini aew?

Rudra and Apache in ladakh

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby abhik » 22 Jun 2020 13:54

ramana wrote:Knowing all that who is to blame for the long delay in awarding the contract?
S400 had been talked about since 2010.

I don't think it is right to say that S400 contract signing was delayed, compared to other almost every other major acquisition it has happened blazingly fast (Artillery, MMRCA, 4 years of "Price Negotiations" on LCH, 5 years and counting on AWACS platform are only some of the examples).

Also covid 19 cant be the reason for 14 month delay, Rafales which were on the same timescale are reportedly only delayed by a month or 2.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby habal » 22 Jun 2020 15:30

they may be into changing the chinese chips and other chinese parts for India. Think along those lines.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby RKumar » 22 Jun 2020 15:58

Katrina dressing to join the party n dance.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 22 Jun 2020 17:10

ldev wrote:Now you know why I dislike them. 14 month delay in the S400 delivery after the bulk of the payment has been made to them. Why am I even surprised at the delay. Not as if we have never seen it before. And then the Indian and Chinese Defence Ministers both in Moscow to deal with the Russians. Hey, the Russians are happy. supply both sides of the conflict.

Why you want the S-400 in the first place?

Instead of delay, may it never come onlee. As per you, Russian missiles never reach their advertised range after all ;)

Rajnath Singh is heading to Moscow to discuss this very issue. Even if it comes as per the original schedule (Oct 2020), it will matter little right now.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Mort Walker » 22 Jun 2020 19:39

Rakesh wrote:
ldev wrote:Now you know why I dislike them. 14 month delay in the S400 delivery after the bulk of the payment has been made to them. Why am I even surprised at the delay. Not as if we have never seen it before. And then the Indian and Chinese Defence Ministers both in Moscow to deal with the Russians. Hey, the Russians are happy. supply both sides of the conflict.

Why you want the S-400 in the first place?

Instead of delay, may it never come onlee. As per you, Russian missiles never reach their advertised range after all ;)

Rajnath Singh is heading to Moscow to discuss this very issue. Even if it comes as per the original schedule (Oct 2020), it will matter little right now.


Admiralji,

What makes the S-400 unique is its advanced radar and SAM seekers. India already has radar signal processing capability demonstrated by indigenous AWACs and AEW. By the time the S-400 would come, the same money could have been spent on the Rajendra radar and evolving the Akash missile system. Orders have to be placed first and the infrastructure paid for, development will follow given the existing momentum India has in other weapon systems. India does not need the S-400 or THAAD. An order for 100 batteries of an advanced Rajendra and Akash would produce so much more knowledge and employment. The $5.4 billion to Russia will probably need to be greased with another several hundred million, and even then it will be 2023 or later when they're actually deployed. For $6 billion, many more advanced Rajendra and Akash could have been produced with much higher reliability and operational readiness.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rishirishi » 23 Jun 2020 05:31

Mort Walker wrote:
Karan M wrote:
Because ours will be non-standard. They will have all instructions, command and control equipment in english. India specific modifications in gear.


The S400 will only become operational in India somewhere in late 2022 at the earliest - if it comes in Dec. 2021. The Russians have always reneged on contracts. They will provide details of the S400 operational limitations to the Chinese who will then promptly pass it on to the Pakis. They're playing both sides in this conflict. Untrustworthy buggers after the dissolution of the USSR.


I think it may be high time to rethink Russia as a supply base. Their tech is inferior and supplies unreliable. The countries who sided with US and the west did well. Japan, South Korea, Singapore etc.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 23 Jun 2020 05:50

Rishirishi wrote:I think it may be high time to rethink Russia as a supply base. Their tech is inferior and supplies unreliable. The countries who sided with US and the west did well. Japan, South Korea, Singapore etc.

It is high time we rethink of any country as a supply base. We need to focus on our own programs and not fund anyone else.

Import wisely where we need to (i.e. MH-60R), but the end goal must be self reliance.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Mort Walker » 23 Jun 2020 05:58

Rishirishi wrote:I think it may be high time to rethink Russia as a supply base. Their tech is inferior and supplies unreliable. The countries who sided with US and the west did well. Japan, South Korea, Singapore etc.


This is an asinine statement.

Germany, Japan and South Korea were basically rebuilt with US reconstruction funds and had a US security blanket provided to them immediately after their wars where millions were killed. Singapore is not a country, but a city state. In India, millions died from the starvation caused by the British who then basically handed over the keys to the Congress party when they left. The Congress did little to improve India. Think about interstate commerce which should have been one of the first things fixed after independence. It wasn't resolved until 2017.

What India needs is its own MIC. Period.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby idan » 23 Jun 2020 11:10

India should create air national guards (like US) under home ministry and state Governors for states bordering Pakistan and China. Gujarat, Punjab, Rajasthan Jammu, Kashmir, Ladakh, Uttaranchal, Himachal, Sikkim, Assam and Arunachal and run air patrols on a regular basis. These states should provide infra/land for small bases. All indigenous fighters like Tejas should form the backbone of such an Indian air national guard. Air Force should be more of strategic air assets, space assets, involved in war gaming, strike missions, air defence, long term deterrence. This way budgets could be managed better, will be under control, more reserve aviators if need be and more assets can be made available in wartime.

https://www.goang.com/

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 24 Jun 2020 00:06

Chinis getting takleef over the 12 Su-30MKIs and 21 MiG-29s, India is purchasing from Russia. What are they afraid of? :)

https://twitter.com/AlexGabuev/status/1 ... 83617?s=20 ---> Chinese propaganda in Russia is activated right before today's trilateral (Russia, India & China) foreign ministers' video conference, as Beijing quite awkwardly tries to influence the Russian expert community and convince Moscow that sale of new fighter jets to India is a bad idea.

https://twitter.com/AlexGabuev/status/1 ... 36962?s=20 ---> Spotted by @Igor_Denisov. Official @PDChina's account has posted this message in a Facebook group of 2,000+ Asia-watchers. "If Russia wants to soften the hearts of Indians & Chinese, it's better not to sell weapons to India at this delicate moment."

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 24 Jun 2020 08:18

IAF plans for 42 squadrons, consisting of a mix of combat aircraft in the light, medium and heavy categories.

If we assume a 1/3 mix of each type, it comes to 14 squadrons each.

  • 14 x heavy [status: completed] —> 13.5 x Su-30MKI
  • 13 x medium [status: almost completed] —> 3 x Mirage-2000, 3 x MiG-29, 5 x Jaguar, 2 x Rafale (awaiting deliveries)
  • 12 x light [status: in-complete] —> 6 x MiG-21 Bison (retiring soon), 2 x LCA MK.1 (awaiting deliveries), 4 x LCA Mk1A (planned)

Based on the above, light category is what requires immediate replenishment. Another 6 LCA Mk1A squadrons (126 units) Needs to be ordered immediately on top of existing ones. Around $12 billion would be sufficient if LCA Mk1As fill in the entire light category slot by 2030.

MWF would replace the Jaguars from 2028 onwards. At least 6 squadrons would be required.

AMCA would replace Mirage-2000 and MiG-29 initially in the late 2030s.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 24 Jun 2020 11:17

Srai, can you put this in a Gantt chart? And post image?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby abhik » 24 Jun 2020 13:52

The difference between light and medium categories is a bit nebulous, weight wise Jaguar and M2K are more on the light side, and LCA MK1 is reportedly as capable if not more than Jaguars (refer HTV's tweets) - the classification needs to be on the basis of capability.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby hemant_sai » 24 Jun 2020 14:32

srai wrote:IAF plans for 42 squadrons, consisting of a mix of combat aircraft in the light, medium and heavy categories.

If we assume a 1/3 mix of each type, it comes to 14 squadrons each.
...


We have assertions from IAF/Test Pilots on below items,
1] AMCA would replace Su-30
2] There won't be MK1B/C/D - (most probably only 6 sqds of Tejas LCA)
3] TejasMk2/MWF - is expected to match or exceed Mirage performance. Same would replace Mirage/Mig29/Jaguars
4] MWF - sqdns can be 6-10 - Initially it was quoted to be 12 - now it is reduced to 6 (around 100+ planes).
5] Looking for more Rafales/MMRCA

What is almost certain is,
1] Su-30 will be limited to 14 sqdns
2] LCA will be limited to 6 sqdns
3] IAF prefers more medium weight fighters mix of 1E+2Engines = 22 sqdns??
4 Rafales + 6 TejasMWF + 12??
(These 12 will be shared between Rafale and MWF depending on how things shape up till 2023)
5] As UCAV is also on the roadmap - May be IAF is no more looking for 42sqdns of manned aircrafts?

Unsettling Queries,
1] When LCA is replacement for mig21 and it is quoted to excel that, then why only 6sqdns?
2] MK1A is also quoted to be capable to do Jaguar role - Why not consider MK1A replacement for Jaguar sqdns?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby deejay » 24 Jun 2020 14:39

srai wrote:^^^
Agree.

Indian armed forces have been stocking up the last few years for short intense conflict. I forget but it was like 10-days or something like that. For short duration, it is possible to attain very high serviceability rates.

Replacements for attritions and depleted stocks would require planning, orders, production, and ongoing deliveries well before any conflict.


You always stock up for a short duration conflict only when it comes to Ammo. Why and how will you stock up for a long duration crisis. Authorised is 40 days and that has been done. Not 10 days as you say.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby deejay » 24 Jun 2020 14:41

srai wrote:IAF plans for 42 squadrons, consisting of a mix of combat aircraft in the light, medium and heavy categories.

If we assume a 1/3 mix of each type, it comes to 14 squadrons each.

  • 14 x heavy [status: completed] —> 13.5 x Su-30MKI
  • 13 x medium [status: almost completed] —> 3 x Mirage-2000, 3 x MiG-29, 5 x Jaguar, 2 x Rafale (awaiting deliveries)
  • 12 x light [status: in-complete] —> 6 x MiG-21 Bison (retiring soon), 2 x LCA MK.1 (awaiting deliveries), 4 x LCA Mk1A (planned)

Based on the above, light category is what requires immediate replenishment. Another 6 LCA Mk1A squadrons (126 units) Needs to be ordered immediately on top of existing ones. Around $12 billion would be sufficient if LCA Mk1As fill in the entire light category slot by 2030.

MWF would replace the Jaguars from 2028 onwards. At least 6 squadrons would be required.

AMCA would replace Mirage-2000 and MiG-29 initially in the late 2030s.


The production rates of LCA Mk1 currently are being bench marked. These will be considered when planning acquisition. The established production capacity has not been met.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby vsunder » 25 Jun 2020 04:37

The HF-24 story Part 3

So here is how cricket won us the Gnat. Depending on if I have time I will add on to this HF-24 story. The next part, part 4 was to be titled The Nazi and the Jew. Few know this story an irony. But let us continue. In part 2 we saw the Make in India effort with PC Lal, Moolgavkar and Roshan Lal Suri TP at HAL country hopping through France, Sweden and UK and the experiences with a dud plane, the Supermarine Swift that the IAF had decided was ideal for them at least on paper. At RAF Chilbolten a former RAF station which had been a staging base for Ops Market Garden you know the massive paradrop at Arnhem The Bridge Too Far and all that, Supermarine and Folland had set up their testing facility. Lal noticed a peppy little aircraft and was much impressed and told it was the Gnat then in development by Folland. So he arranged a meeting at Southampton with the chief designer and a Director the famous W.E.W. "Teddy" Petter. Petter has written some interesting papers in Fluids by the way. He was with English Electric and was involved in the design of the Canberra. Later in life he became reclusive and took to religion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._E._W._Petter

Petter was courteous but told Lal that the Gnat was not for sale to India. Lal then said "then why did you invite me to Southampton?" Petter was cold and distant at the Lunch that followed though courteous. One of the other directors asked Lal over lunch if cricket was being played in India. Lal immediately said, very much so, see the Illustrated London News of last week, it has a detailed account of a cricket match between the President's XI and the PM's XI. This used to a regular fixture in the old days and I have sat through one such match with Gilchrist and Lester King the West Indian fast bowlers. Lal observed that Petter was busy jotting down something while he was talking about cricket. A few days later Lal received a phone call from Petter at his London hotel and this time Petter was warm and told Lal he would like to meet him and was willing to drive to London. Lal instead went down to Southampton and Petter was happy to allow Lal to test the Gnat and eventually allow sales to India. Years later in Bangalore Petter told Lal that he was sorry for being cold and rude at that first meeting and refuse the sale of the Gnat to India, since he thought India was Communist. So we got the Gnat because of cricket and then what happened in 1965 and 1971 is history.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_Sharma » 25 Jun 2020 07:54

ramana wrote:
ldev wrote:
At the risk of repeating myself I will say that for the same $8.5 billion that the IAF spent on the 36 Rafale, none of which have yet hit the ground, they could have 72 F-16s, pricing estimate based on the Taiwan deal for 66 with AMRAAM 120-Ds. And unlike Dassault which has limited production capacity, IMO LM would have delivered at least 36 or more as of today. At least that is what I believe. brar-w has the final say on that. And the F-16s would have served as a perfectly adequate stop gap until the IAF was ready for a true 5th Gen whether AMCA or eventually the F-35.

Yes, the limitation would have been extra payments for customizing to integrate the Brahmos NG and Astraa and that also subject to radar source codes being shared. But bottom line is the IAF would have been better off.

And the lack of AWACs is as big a negative. Netra should have been mounted on another 6 platforms by now.

As of now IMO the IAF will hold a defensive line in air to air and it should largely succeed if the lessons of the day after Balakot have been learnt. It will not be able to dominate specially if facing a combination of PAF F-16s and PLAAF J-10Cs.


This won't happen. And it was the right thing to do.
Any US arms ally is a vassal state. We did not fight the Mughals and British to fall to US in 70 years because a lizard comes and pees in our moru kulumbu.

This pipe dream won't happen.
So next.

If anyone recalls US incited Saddam Hussain to attack Kuwait to make the Arabs embrace.
How do we know the same has not happened wrt China?

I still haven't reconciled with the Crisis Games where the Pentagon played War game to help Pakistan plan 1965 war.


Just read "American Hero" by Beinhart, he exposed whole story of Bush & James Baker got Saddam to attack.
https://www.amazon.com/American-Hero-La ... 0345366638

It's real possibility what eleven is doing now egged by Drumpfff

What is the name of the writer of "Crises Games" Ramana ji?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 26 Jun 2020 13:32

For $5B,we could've got 125+ MIG-29/35s .We actually paid a staggering $8+ B for the Rafales! Read media reports. For that cost we could've got 200 MIG-39/35s, at least 160 LCAs or 100+ MKIs. The Rafale cost does not make economic sense snyway you look at it,even the SU-57 stealth fighter is cheapet and the F-35 not yet offered to us.

However,right now there is no point ruing the past.
We need to determine what we need immediately,med. and long term.
Immediately needed are ready-to-fight aircraft of types in service.
The mainstay of the fleet are the MKIs and MIG-29s .RuAF equiv. aircraft of closest specs could be leased until new orders arrive.Extra MKIs and MIG-29s ,around 33+ are supposedly already in the pipeline.Nasik must be tasked to build another sqd. asap,to BMos std. The upgrades to SS std. should also begin.
M2Ks if available at reasonable cost .Upgrades per unit costs $50M! More than a brand new MIG-35 or Tejas. We should be able to get fromRussia at least 3 sqds. of assorted MIGs and Flankers,which will pose little effort to induct. Somr time ago we were offered MIG-31s as replacement for our MIG-25s.A few leased or bought with Kinzhal 400+ km range AAMs,AWACS killers would be invaluable at this moment to deal with PLAAF AWACS aircraft.

The PLAAF have reportedly operationalised their H-6K LR precision strike bombers against us. This reveals the gaping holf in the IAF inventory,an LR strat. bomber. Decades ago we were offered a few dozen Backfires for a song which ACM PC Lal turned down,obsessed with Pak was the service andxestablishment.At least if the IN had them,they could be tasked for the job at hand.Backfires are in service and a few could be leased like our Akula. Russia's new PAK-DA will replace other variants once it enters production.Until then Bears,Backfires and Blackjacks ,all modernised are available if we ask for them.

Given the immediate crisis,what is acutely reqd. for swift induction of troops in the mountains as our border infra isn't complete as yet, are helos of dll types.MI-26 Ts,Chinooks,MI-17Vs, Ru attack helos ,far cheaper than Apaches.Apaches on lease as we haven't had delivery of all 24+6 ordered. MI-35s,MI-28Ns and KA-52s are options,the last has v.good capability.Our LCHs and armed Dhruvs must be built 24X7,.

The heavylift and MI-17Vs are essential for airlifting LW BAe 155MM arty,more to be ordered as well. Extra C-130Js which can land on dirtstrips carrying AVs,arty and spl. forces will bd in great demand. Extra IL-76-476s,the new upgraded version of the 20+ lfgacy birds we operate ,have a 20% increase in payload and performance.They are the only available heavylift transports after the C- 17 production ended a pity we didn't order 4 to 6 more well- knowing that production was ending. Tankers and AEW aircraft also urgently needed. The IAF must be supporyed to thf hilt by thf govt. at this juncture and obtain eithouh prevarication thf most urgently reqd. available aircraft,helos and missiles,bought or leased.

Desperate times call for desperate measures.
The Chinese have come in this time prepared for war. Only a huge military force build- up against them will deter them,where the cost of any " win" fof them will be a pyrrhic one.Our build up should be sufficient for countermoves on our part,thg goal,severing the Tibetan highway from Lhasa to Ladakh, destroying key installations on the Karakorum highway severing thf lanc toute to Pak through POK/ Aksai Chin, and destroying or incapacitating China's airbases in the region. " Attack is the best form of defence". Allowing for our logistic chain put in plsce, We should plan for the same,and in the IOR and ICS too. Chinese tankers seized or destroyed by the IN would really be icing upon the Himalayan cake.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby kit » 26 Jun 2020 14:08

ldev wrote:
srai wrote:
Contracts are paid per specified timelines as per milestones achieved and as per signed agreements. Payment or delivery delays can also trigger penalty clauses. Do you know how much has been paid already?


The article says the bulk of the funds have been paid. So definitely more than 50%.

The bigger issue is not penalties but the urgency with which the system is needed. Like right now. The Russians have some large number of S400 regiments delivered to the Russian Air Force. Why can't India get a system or two delivered from their stock?


even better, they have started deploying S500s around Moscow !!.. sure they can spare a few 400s for "training purposes".. I think China will try to influence / bribe the Russians to delay the whole thing.. by the way what engine tech are they negotiating with the Russians .. i thought they bought Motor Sich lock stock and barrel !!

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby basant » 26 Jun 2020 14:12

deejay wrote:The production rates of LCA Mk1 currently are being bench marked. These will be considered when planning acquisition. The established production capacity has not been met.

That explains why FOC delivers have stopped? :(

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby kit » 27 Jun 2020 00:45

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a32971900/f-35-lightning-safety/

Are aircraft equipped with OBOGS prone to an explosion on lightning strikes ?!


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