Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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dinesh_kimar
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby dinesh_kimar » 12 Oct 2020 18:20

^ Extension upto 2 years can also be given on spl cases, for total of 62 years... :mrgreen:

Frankly, I'm not a fan of Mig 21, due to
- its flight control problems.
- it's high landing speeds of 700 km/h + (conservative, I've heard higher)
- its lack of reliability
-- There are a few IAF officers who have got distinguished gallantry awards during peacetime for safely landing the Mig 21, after the bloody thing shuts down mid flight and the control actuators don't work.
- lack of spares ( you gents will be happy to know that HAL manufactured more than 600 of them, along with 165 Mig 27 and 160 Jaguars. Today, even flightworthy Mig 27 aircraft made in 1990s are retired due to lack of spares. We all know HAL makes Su 30 MKI. You see where all this is going? )

The performance of Mig 21 in service has been good, being a multirole aircraft which has shot down the enemy in 1971 and Kargil, and bested the USAF in Cope Exercises in 2006. It's simply outlived it's time.

IAF , HAL and most important, the Government, should invest in the Tejas and Su 30 MKI, which will meet our needs for another 40 years, albeit with various upgrades.

Them refusing to see the writing on the wall and turning a blind eye to a burning issue of national defence is downright criminal, I tell you!!

(Some ministers in current govt. are regularly accused of turning a blind eye, the Pakis have H&D issues, while we have HRD issues :mrgreen: )

RajaRudra
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby RajaRudra » 12 Oct 2020 18:57

We have quiet a large number of this bird, what is the retirement all about. Simply throw away for junks ?
Is there a scope for automatic or robotic actuators (using a live simulator in the ground) whereby we can use this warrior birds as one time missile?

more over, enemy will not be knowing its manned / unmanned and will need to employ sufficient resource trying to intercept.

hemant_sai
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby hemant_sai » 12 Oct 2020 19:16

@RajaRudra - Superb like for your suggestion. Such unconventional thinking for best possible use of our resources is the need of the hour.

In one of the conclave, Parrikar Sir had mentioned that yes squadron numbers are reducing but we have potent missile force to take care of the needs.

looking at how we are progressing on missile/artillery/heli developments, isn't it possible to take care of most of the war scenarios posed by western adversary by Army resources itself?

Of course not at this moment but in 2-3 years it is very much doable compared to waiting for new IAF aircrafts. On top of that if all soon to be retired stuff is used as @rajaRudra suggested - to reduce enemy assets - it will be awsm !!

S_Madhukar
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby S_Madhukar » 12 Oct 2020 21:49

At the very least old Mig-21s are good test beds for UCAV technology and software... without testing there I am not sure how we will straight away jump to Ghatak... Also the Tejas Sport should be a good flight trainer (may be with an Indian engine when possible)

nachiket
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 12 Oct 2020 21:52

S_Madhukar wrote:At the very least old Mig-21s are good test beds for UCAV technology and software... without testing there I am not sure how we will straight away jump to Ghatak... Also the Tejas Sport should be a good flight trainer (may be with an Indian engine when possible)

And why isn't the Rustom-II a good test bed for it?

nachiket
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 12 Oct 2020 22:01

dinesh_kimar wrote:^ Extension upto 2 years can also be given on spl cases, for total of 62 years... :mrgreen:

Frankly, I'm not a fan of Mig 21, due to
- its flight control problems.
- it's high landing speeds of 700 km/h + (conservative, I've heard higher)
- its lack of reliability

Landing speed of 700km/hr is unadulterated nonsense. The landing speed is very high compared to other aircraft but it's in the range of 300-350 km/hr depending on landing weight etc.

None of the Mig-21 Bisons flying today are 60 years old. They were all originally Bis versions built by HAL from 1980-87.

Aryavarta
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aryavarta » 13 Oct 2020 09:17



Unbelievable landing! Nerves of steel!

Mollick.R
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Mollick.R » 13 Oct 2020 13:44

dinesh_kimar wrote:^ Extension upto 2 years can also be given on spl cases, for total of 62 years... :mrgreen:

Frankly, I'm not a fan of Mig 21, due to
..............................
The performance of Mig 21 in service has been good, being a multirole aircraft which has shot down the enemy in 1971 and Kargil, and bested the USAF in Cope Exercises in 2006. It's simply outlived it's time.


Saar with due respect, MIG-21 is never considered a Multirole Aircraft.
Its role an excellent interceptor which was used for CAP or point defence role too. Its limited fuel/ range issue (low on station time) is well known.

Cain Marko
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 14 Oct 2020 04:12

nachiket wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:They'll have plenty of mk1a to fill in the gaps by the time tedbf comes along. Not to mention occasional injections of rafale, 29s etc. India should simply order 300 mk1a and ramp up production on a war footing.

I don't see why it will take longer than 10 odd years, the m4k development would be a great model to follow... Simply a twin engined Tejas. Ideally with kaveris even if they just crank out 7.5kn thrust, not too different from rafale specs.

10 years itself is too long. With the MWF they were looking at first flight in 2023 followed by an accelerated testing schedule made possible because of the commonalities with the Mk1 and Mk1A. This is simply not possible with the TEDBF. And plus you have to look at the price and operational expenses of the resulting fighter. IAF is already top heavy with the 270 MKI and now Rafales joining them, plus the AMCA to follow later. If their needs are met by a single-engined medium weight fighter, then that's what they should get, especially when it is faster and easier to build that based on the Tejas anyway.

From what I understand, there are not too many commonalities between Mk1A and MWF. The latter is much bigger - girth and length, heavier, more powerful, canards, inlets etc. This is a 10-15 year process. So either way it will take time. Might as well go with a safer/future proof option in the TEDBF. The shortage in the meanwhile can be handled by MK1A and incremental improvements.

Cain Marko
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 14 Oct 2020 04:16

brar_w wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:I don't see why it will take longer than 10 odd years, the m4k development would be a great model to follow...


Any clean sheet twin engined 4.5 generation naval fighter, or an adaptation of such a fighter for land based operations, is a 12-15 year undertaking to design, develop, test, and have enter into production. Any time-horizon that is shorter than that is likely to introduce a whole bunch of risk and is therefore quite likely to not be met.

How long do you think the MWF is going to take? They have spoken of it since 2008 and even now it is not entirely clear if the design is frozen....missed opportunity of a joint IAF/IN Tedbf project was lost during this time, and will be lost again with energies scattered in 3 different programs all running at once.

brar_w
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 14 Oct 2020 04:21

Cain Marko wrote:
brar_w wrote:
Any clean sheet twin engined 4.5 generation naval fighter, or an adaptation of such a fighter for land based operations, is a 12-15 year undertaking to design, develop, test, and have enter into production. Any time-horizon that is shorter than that is likely to introduce a whole bunch of risk and is therefore quite likely to not be met.

How long do you think the MWF is going to take? They have spoken of it since 2008 and even now it is not entirely clear if the design is frozen....missed opportunity of a joint IAF/IN Tedbf project was lost during this time, and will be lost again with energies scattered in 3 different programs all running at once.


It is still a decade plus worth of engineering, development, dev and ops testing before you have limited operational capability and are at rate production. So the question is, when did the teams start, what articles are in mfg, what is flying (mission systems) and when do they begin generating the first developmental test sorties and how soon those pick up pace.

Cain Marko
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 14 Oct 2020 04:28

brar_w wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:How long do you think the MWF is going to take? They have spoken of it since 2008 and even now it is not entirely clear if the design is frozen....missed opportunity of a joint IAF/IN Tedbf project was lost during this time, and will be lost again with energies scattered in 3 different programs all running at once.


It is still a decade plus worth of engineering, development, dev and ops testing before you have limited operational capability and are at rate production. So the question is, when did the teams start, what articles are in mfg, what is flying (mission systems) and when do they begin generating the first developmental test sorties and how soon those pick up pace.

Sure there will be some sunk costs but there are opportunity costs too.


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