Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 13 Apr 2018 00:07

Jaguar DARIN 3 ! Note its registration number - JS163..previously only JM series Jags had the radome. All JS series jets had the chisel nose.

Su-30MKI, Jaguar IS DARIN 3 and Tejas flypast at DefExpo 2018

This was JS163, the first upgraded DARIN 3 Jaguar IS

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Apr 2018 00:08

My bad read it as engine when it says seat.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 13 Apr 2018 01:48

Kartik wrote:Su-30MKI, Jaguar IS DARIN 3 and Tejas flypast at DefExpo 2018

The tail numbers indicate the Su-30 and Jaguar belonging to ASTE with the Sukhoi probably the same one used to test BrahMos. The Tejas is one of the LSPs operated by NFTC.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Apr 2018 03:37

https://m.facebook.com/IndianAirForce/p ... =3&theater

Ex GaganShakti2018

Please post pictures and news
Very big deal.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Apr 2018 03:42

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/9847 ... 71296?s=19

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Apr 2018 09:51

10,000 sorties in 3 days.

https://twitter.com/defence_news/status ... 90496?s=19

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 14 Apr 2018 10:18

10k sorties in 3 days, is it a typo or for real!!!!! Pretty darn impressive.....

2.31 sorties/min for 72 hours straight.....that is mind boggling

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Apr 2018 11:01

Katare wrote:10k sorties in 3 days, is it a typo or for real!!!!! Pretty darn impressive.....

2.31 sorties/min for 72 hours straight.....that is mind boggling

That is what is needed to smash the door down..

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 14 Apr 2018 11:04

Building up fuel reserves on a massive scale, jacking up war reserves, now entire fighter squadron sorties in just 3 days. Anything in the works?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Apr 2018 11:54

ramana wrote:10,000 sorties in 3 days.

https://twitter.com/defence_news/status ... 90496?s=19

Need confirmation from MOD on the numbers but this sorties will also include transport ( aircraft/helicopters ) and fighter wings is what I think.

srai · Post by **srai** » 14 Apr 2018 15:27

Katare wrote:10k sorties in 3 days, is it a typo or for real!!!!! Pretty darn impressive.....

2.31 sorties/min for 72 hours straight.....that is mind boggling

Probably a typo... extra zero. 1000 would be more probable.

Mukesh.Kumar · Post by **Mukesh.Kumar** » 14 Apr 2018 17:41

srai wrote:
Katare wrote:10k sorties in 3 days, is it a typo or for real!!!!! Pretty darn impressive.....

2.31 sorties/min for 72 hours straight.....that is mind boggling
Probably a typo... extra zero. 1000 would be more probable.

Sir even assuming helicopters and transport and at 1000 sorties it is impressive. Over 3 days it is like a sorrow every 4.3 mins. I guess the number of flight hours would be staggering.

Mukesh.Kumar · Post by **Mukesh.Kumar** » 14 Apr 2018 17:52

Added later: For comparison during GW1 coalition forces with about 2250 combat aircraft flew 2750 odd sorties during the first 24 hours. A sortie rate of 100 per hour or 4 sorties per 100 aircraft per hour. Would be nice to pull out number of aircraft in Gaganshakti and see though it may not be a direct comparison.

Edited later: Had to be a typo. Even the number of fighter aircraft is shown as 1100.

If we take that as number of total aircraft the metric comes to: 1.27 sorties per hour per 100 aircraft. Still very impressive.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Apr 2018 18:53

We will never become like China until we learn to brag and exaggerate without batting an eyelid..

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 14 Apr 2018 19:36

So 11 LCA and 3 sorties per day for 3 days = 11×3×3 = 99 sorties for LCA only

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 14 Apr 2018 19:46

My take, 10,000 sorties in 3 days is more right. There are 1100 planes. For LCA we know that they are pulling off 3 sorties a day. If that is the rate, 1100 could be pulling 3300 sorties a day or 10,000 in 3 days.
What is the objective of Gagan Shakti - Reading between lines, it is turn around time, logistics, forward deployment etc. The focus would be on generating sorties as in real war. Why this high number? read on
IAF is down to 33 Sq, one way to mitigate low numbers are to increase efficiency of existing fleet - Less aircraft on maintenance (meaning extra budget for spares, MRO facility etc.), More pilot to plane ratio, extensive training to ground troop, more distributed stocking of spares/munitions (again more money in different buckets). IAF is testing that. Even with 33 SQ it is as effective as if it has 42 sq. Of course during war alteration would have more impact compared to had we had 42 sq.). I think there are some brown pants across the border.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 14 Apr 2018 20:59

RKumar wrote:So 11 LCA and 3 sorties per day for 3 days = 11×3×3 = 99 sorties for LCA only

Sir its only SP1-8, SP9 is yet to be accepted by the squadron(or that is what was the last we heard)

So 8 *3 *3 = 72 sorties that still makes it a big number. BTW, this would be a great exercise for the squadron ground crews and who knows they may have pushed it beyond 3 too.

BTW, i have read hazy reports of a data link being present, now i dont know if it is operational and has passed interoperability with our AWACS but if it has been done and used during GaganShakti, it would be another feather in the cap as the erstwhile star but current rust buckets(Mig21, Mig27) do not have this facility.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Apr 2018 21:44

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/985166046263959552

The IAF’s BAE-HAL Hawk jet trainers flying too at Exercise Gagan Shakti. The IAF is looking to weaponise them with @byMBDA Brimstones & ASRAAMs.

There's our CAS aircraft.. as I had anticipated

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 14 Apr 2018 22:42

Can the hawk take punishment from ground AA or SAM missiles and still fly? Mig 27/SU25/AA-10 are in different leagues. It's a poor man CAS, where you expect minimal apposition, not against PA/PAF and PLA/PLAAF. We should build a twin engine, armored, multiple redundancy, perhaps with Kaveri in current form and use that.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 14 Apr 2018 23:06

fanne wrote:Can the hawk take punishment from ground AA or SAM missiles and still fly? Mig 27/SU25/AA-10 are in different leagues. It's a poor man CAS, where you expect minimal apposition, not against PA/PAF and PLA/PLAAF. We should build a twin engine, armored, multiple redundancy, perhaps with Kaveri in current form and use that.

At some point the line between paki army and terrorists will melt and shouldnt expect them to have endless supply of MANPADs or coverof AD

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 15 Apr 2018 00:06

suryag wrote:
RKumar wrote:So 11 LCA and 3 sorties per day for 3 days = 11×3×3 = 99 sorties for LCA only
Sir its only SP1-8, SP9 is yet to be accepted by the squadron(or that is what was the last we heard)

No sir for me, Im just chotta abdul only. Im aware of 9 SP Tejas but above quoted number is coming from some open source news only so I assume some LSP are doing some sort of magic. And it will not be first time that LSP are participating and there is an official photo also from GaganShakti where LSP4 is visible if I am not mistaken but gurus can correct me

Manish Jain · Post by **Manish Jain** » 15 Apr 2018 01:47

It's 10k sorties. There was no typo.

http://www.defencenews.in/article.aspx?id=547597

"Almost every combat aircraft of the force carried out six sorties on three consecutive days to demonstrate that we are capable of undertaking high tempo operations with the fleet available to us, and the shortage of combat planes does not have any impact on our capability to handle both war fronts," government sources told Mail Today.

kit · Post by **kit** » 15 Apr 2018 03:33

ramana wrote:https://m.facebook.com/IndianAirForce/p ... =3&theater

Ex GaganShakti2018

Please post pictures and news
Very big deal.

Almost as if a full scale war going on in multiple fronts !!

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 15 Apr 2018 04:49

shiv wrote:https://twitter.com/livefist/status/985166046263959552
The IAF’s BAE-HAL Hawk jet trainers flying too at Exercise Gagan Shakti. The IAF is looking to weaponise them with @byMBDA Brimstones & ASRAAMs.
There's our CAS aircraft.. as I had anticipated

Dumb question: Is this the same asraam that has been inducted on the Jaguar?

If so, it seems the IAF likes this missile for WVR roles. In that case, might as well arm the Tejas also with it and forget the Python.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Apr 2018 06:56

fanne wrote:Can the hawk take punishment from ground AA or SAM missiles and still fly? Mig 27/SU25/AA-10 are in different leagues. It's a poor man CAS, where you expect minimal apposition, not against PA/PAF and PLA/PLAAF. We should build a twin engine, armored, multiple redundancy, perhaps with Kaveri in current form and use that.

Every square inch of battlefront will not be choking with SAM and manpads. A couple of aircraft (or nowadays even a UAV) can be sent over the area to "draw out" the manpads and check for defences and let the men in the front exhaust them while the initial high tempo attacks ensure that logistics lines and rear area dumps are neutralized. After 3-4 days of high tempo attacks a lot of areas will become safer for aircraft to fly lo and slo. That said I think too much emphasis is placed on aircraft armour. Aircraft with armour also get shot down because - once you get into 12.5 mm and higher calibers only tank armour will stop them, wings and engines cannot be protected by tank like armour. And an IR in a musharraf can be survived mainly by allah's grace. So risk will be there. Even US versus Afghanistan was not zero risk.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 15 Apr 2018 08:36

https://www.facebook.com/IndianAirForce ... 0162420266
#GaganShakti2018 -- MARITIME AIR OPERATIONS

On 14 Apr 18, in a joint operation, the IAF conducted maritime air operations on the Western Sea-board, with the clear aim of air dominance & deep strike validation over the extended area of the Indian Ocean Region (IOR). In the long range strike concept validation, the Su-30s, airborne from a base on the Eastern Coast engaged multiple targets, in the Western Sea-board, at distances in excess of 2200 Km. These aircraft then landed at a Southern Base, thus covering a total distance of 3600 Km, in a single mission. These staggering ranges were made possible by IL-78 FRA (Flight Refueling Aircraft), thus ensuring long strike capabilities for our fighter aircraft.

The joint operations with the Indian Navy has the P-8i aircraft in tandem with the AWACS (Air borne warning & Control System) flying reconnaissance missions, in the build up towards the simulated strikes, as an initial step toward information gathering. The Air Defence fighters of the Indian Navy are an integral part of the combined might & will provide air support to the formidable Carrier Battle Group.

Exercise Gaganshakti would serve as a befitting platform to evaluate joint Ops with the Indian Navy, infuse the latest enablers such as AWACS & FRAs in the Op matrix & in conjunction with the mainstay SU-30 & Jaguar Ac introduce a flexibility, both potent in long range & devastating in its weaponry. The sheer exploitation of the combat support assets will stretch boundaries & create newer horizons in an expansive endeavor to extend our reaches & engage targets in the IOR.

#IAF #IndianAirForce #PeopleFirstMissionAlways #GuardiansOfTheSky

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 15 Apr 2018 09:18

Katare wrote:10k sorties in 3 days, is it a typo or for real!!!!! Pretty darn impressive.....

2.31 sorties/min for 72 hours straight.....that is mind boggling

Lets' hope and pray IAF soon become capable of launching 100k sorties to bring real hour of 72 to Pakiland.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Apr 2018 10:10

pankajs wrote:https://www.facebook.com/IndianAirForce ... 0162420266
#GaganShakti2018 -- MARITIME AIR OPERATIONS
On 14 Apr 18, in a joint operation, the IAF conducted maritime air operations on the Western Sea-board, with the clear aim of air dominance & deep strike validation over the extended area of the Indian Ocean Region (IOR). In the long range strike concept validation, the Su-30s, airborne from a base on the Eastern Coast engaged multiple targets, in the Western Sea-board, at distances in excess of 2200 Km.

2200 km circles

Frm Andamans

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 15 Apr 2018 14:15

Sandeep @SandeepUnnithan

V significant. Battalion assault by Para Brigade begins enemy lines: 560 paratroopers, combat vehicles, GPS-guided cargo. 6 C-130Js, 7 An-32s converging from multiple AFBs. CAPs by flight of Su-30MKIs + AWACs. #ExGaganshakti @IAF_MCC

Mukesh.Kumar · Post by **Mukesh.Kumar** » 15 Apr 2018 15:38

kit wrote:
ramana wrote:https://m.facebook.com/IndianAirForce/p ... =3&theater

Ex GaganShakti2018

Please post pictures and news
Very big deal.
Almost as if a full scale war going on in multiple fronts !!

Gladdens the jingo ♡. Must be the baddest exercise done by the IAF. The level of preparations would be mind boggling.

On a lighter note I expect the dry cleaners across the eastern and western borders would be having a field day cleaning up browned Mao suits and salwar.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 15 Apr 2018 15:57

Prem wrote:
Katare wrote:10k sorties in 3 days, is it a typo or for real!!!!! Pretty darn impressive.....

2.31 sorties/min for 72 hours straight.....that is mind boggling
Lets' hope and pray IAF soon become capable of launching 100k sorties to bring real hour of 72 to Pakiland.

Do you need 100000 sorties for pakis? If only previous govt took quick decisions on Rafale and additional C 17s.

kit · Post by **kit** » 15 Apr 2018 17:25

Looks like the Gagan Shakti is more like a counter-offensive designed to strike deep and hard rather than a defensive posture ..an operation like this in actual war would lay to waste entire Pakistan and reach Beijing as well ! .. so much for shivering .. and well as the military builds up in the coming days ..we could very well witness a "friendly" Beijing

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Apr 2018 22:20

kit wrote:Looks like the Gagan Shakti is more like a counter-offensive designed to strike deep and hard rather than a defensive posture .

With respect - all wars that the Air Force has participated in as well as all iterations of Vayu Shkati or Iron fist have ALWAYS been "strike hard". It is only a BRF delusion about defence defence defence-intercept-intercept-intercept, agile-agile agile, more aam-more aam more aam combined with the counter argument of "Unsafe for planes to do this because of SAMs, AAMs. PAM, RAMs, DAMs, Fams, Cams, mams lams " etc

So our thinking unlike the air force seems to lead people to imagine that there is something special about an exercise that involves attack

ALL of them are that way. No "defensive posture". Ever. The air force is for attack AND defence. Not just defence alone

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Apr 2018 22:26

in contrast the distance from aviano to cyprus is 2100km and the american ships launching into syria would be west of that . they were protected by 4 x 15c and 4 x f16c in a2a loadout.

mainly the presence of the weak f16s needed large scale tanker support to fly them out and return them back. our su30s would have refueled only once, these munnas maybe thrice to haul back.

thats what a proper heavy gives - a backfire would not refuel for this mission.

https://theaviationist.com/?p=53071

8 to 13 tankers were up at various times...more than our holding...to support one long range mission

thats why i always rant we need to find a way to locate and kill enemy heavies deep over tibet or drive them off station to the tarim basin deserts.
might be some ground launched K15 that releases AAM or kinzhal type a2a weapons...

vsunder · Post by **vsunder** » 16 Apr 2018 02:23

Here is a comparison.

In the 1971 war: IAF flew 7346 sorties over 14 days around 500 sorties a day.

Day 1

Counter Air: 164(WAC) 112 (EAC) , Offensive support 23(WAC), 57 (EAC), Air Defence 36(WAC) , 111(EAC)
Total 502 sorties

Day 2:

Counter Air 54(WAC), 52 (EAC), Offensive support 81 (WAC), 111(EAC), Air Defence 149 (WAC), 42 (EAC).
Total 489 sorties

Combat sorties numbered 5400 and Gnat sorties numbered 1,275 out of that. The next highest number of sorties were by Mig-21s. Canberras next, Sukhois, Hunters and Mysteres in that order. The loss to number of sorties flown was highest for the Maruts.

There was enough in the system then to step it up if need be for short periods of time.

I am amused at people thinking 10,000 is 1,000 so much for these young kids nowadays who do not read history.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Apr 2018 04:05

I posted the tweet from IAF handle. So where is typo from?

If any one notes my first post was hope AVM Dev Ganesh sees this.

Gagan Shakti is very intense two front war exercise with all the planes in IAF being used. And with joint ness with both services.
Each exercise has deeper meaning of you think about.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 16 Apr 2018 05:01

So 71 war we had 500 sorties a day and Gagan Shakti is doing 3333 sorties a day. This is the kind of stuff they call unfkin believable and mind boggling.

For 1100 aircraft to do 10k sorties, it would mean each aircraft on an average flew 3 times/day. Very possible.

Cost at $10k/sortie would come to $100 million, very affordable from budget POV.

It is not that people are not believing it, instead the number is so good that it is causing natural feeling of incredibility. For me it is true until proven otherwise.......go IAF

I only wonder how many salwwrs are wet across our western boarders after seeing these numbers.

GopiD · Post by **GopiD** » 16 Apr 2018 05:48

Katare wrote:So 71 war we had 500 sorties a day and Gagan Shakti is doing 3333 sorties a day. This is the kind of stuff they call unfkin believable and mind boggling.

For 1100 aircraft to do 10k sorties, it would mean each aircraft on an average flew 3 times/day. Very possible.

Cost at $10k/sortie would come to $100 million, very affordable from budget POV.

It is not that people are not believing it, instead the number is so good that it is causing natural feeling of incredibility. For me it is true until proven otherwise.......go IAF

I only wonder how many salwwrs are wet across our western boarders after seeing these numbers.

Could Gagan Shakthi and the 10k sortie number have anything to do with Bajwa saab's recent utterings from across the border? Seems like DIALOGUE is the only way...

http://idrw.org/peace-with-india-possib ... rmy-chief/

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Apr 2018 06:08

I think 1971 averaged 500 sorties per day over 16 days. Sortie rates in the first 3-4 days would have been higher than average. Near the end when there was total air dominance over Bdesh the Army did not need or utilize the guaranteed number of sorties they could have requested.

vsunder · Post by **vsunder** » 16 Apr 2018 06:27

Gagan Shakti should be compared with the first Gulf war air campaign. Coalition forces flew 100,000 sorties over 36 days mid Jan 1991 to late Feb 1991. That is about 2800 sorties every day. Though as Shiv points out the opening phases of any campaign are the most intense. The point is not just the number of sorties, but whether this can be sustained over a period of weeks. Supply chains for spare parts and ammunition and fuel will be tested to the limit as well as the physical condition of both ground crew and air crew for sustained and hazardous operations.