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Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby JayS » 28 Apr 2017 18:13

shiv wrote: Of course those who would like to see such an acquisition are unlikely to protest on the grounds of "Too many aircraft types in the IAF". But that is not an argument I accept anyway.


This argument is invalid when we are talking about completely different type of aircraft for a specific role which cannot be done by any other existing type (well it can be fulfilled partially but not completely). But first things first - What is still under contention is do we really need that role as of now..??


Completely agree on the part that we need to know how to make big plans.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby shiv » 28 Apr 2017 19:58

Bala Vignesh wrote:More than strat bomber for carpet bombing, what I am advocating is for a CM carrier. Something that can carry 4-5 Brahmos in a internal bomb bay and ripple fire it a target at stand off ranges to take out key nodes of enemy's C4ISR and bases. All said and done, those H-6K's of PLAAF are significant in their range and punch with thier CJ10's. We may require something similar to take out Chini bases in Tibet and also to address any ADGES that China may set up along the LAC.

Bala I have a problem with "ripple fire" - especially of Brahmos from an aircraft for the following reasons.

Ripple fire (of anything) looks spectacular in propagandu photos and videos but it is needed for laying down concentrated fire on a target in a short time. For example all rocket firing from rocket pods are ripple fired because the damn aircraft is moving and can keeps its nose pointed at the target only for seconds. Similarly Pinaka will lay down thunderous fire from a static point to maybe a moving column - but it will all come down in seconds

Brahmos is a precision guided munition and needs to have its launch position and target coordinates fed in. The launch position is essential while the target position can possibly be updated. If the plane is flying at 800-900 kmph "ripple fire of Brahmos" is not going to happen for that reason. Ripple fire of a precision guided missile is OK from a static position like a ship or land base where the launch coordinates will not change much in the 10 seconds or so required to ripple fire 2 Brahmos. In 10 sec the aircraft will be 2.5 km away from its original spot. I expect that the way coordinates will be fed into Brahmos is to anticipate a launch point, arm the missile and the missile is automatically fired at the correct moment

And then - because Brahmos is precision guided only one or maximum 2 will be fired at a target after which an update will be needed to know if the target 300 or more km away has actually been destroyed. This may take 10 minutes or even 24 hours depending on recce/intel etc. In the case of the US navy - they used Cruise missiles like we would use Pinaka - to hit one single target - and from static launch points to a static target

So ripple firing off 5-6 Brahmos from a flying aircraft is not going to happen

The Chinese have H-6s but the answer is to shoot them down over Tibet or prevent them from taking off if possible. Trying to copy them and have the same type of aircraft is not necessary if the job can be done in another way. To repeat, the solution to a sword is a shield or armour, not another sword. We need not respond to H-6 by having "something similar" to H-6 . We can do the same thing in a different way.
Last edited by shiv on 28 Apr 2017 21:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karthik S » 28 Apr 2017 20:07

Shivji, you don't seem convinced about the use of Tu 160 in naval strike role over IOR. A pair of backfires or blackjacks can be effective against a naval task force that we can't target from our land based ASMs. I know we can use other IAF fighters such as MKIs for that role, but you'd need atleast 8 10 MKIs in place of 2 Tu 160s. Considering our low squadron strength, would it be prudent to divert IAF fighters for naval strike mission over IOR?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby shiv » 28 Apr 2017 20:09

JayS wrote:Completely agree on the part that we need to know how to make big plans.

In general on this forum people tend to be enamoured of the armed platforms with teeth - the more teeth the better. but when it comes to China - air logistics will be crucial. We are totally dependent of phoren for air logistics. We need to make our own transports. But the role is not romantic enough to attract jingo/patriot attention. A sligthly different reading of 1962 would be that we lost on logistics - or at least the Chinese won on logistics.

All their roads are logistics lines. The sat images may show nothing now but if it comes to war the Chinese will spend 6 months stocking up Tibet to kick our asses hard. At that time we will need the logistics to respond and take the war into their territory

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby shiv » 28 Apr 2017 20:10

Karthik S wrote:Shivji, you don't seem convinced about the use of Tu 160 in naval strike role over IOR. A pair of backfires or blackjacks can be effective against a naval task force that we can't target from our land based ASMs. I know we can use other IAF fighters such as MKIs for that role, but you'd need atleast 8 10 MKIs in place of 2 Tu 160s. Considering our low squadron strength, would it be prudent to divert IAF fighters for naval strike mission over IOR?

I never said that. I said that we may need 4 or 6 such aircraft bought outright for precisely that role.
shiv wrote:If we must buy - I suggest buying a limited number, like MiG 25 and set aside for specific longrange roles - say bombing an Indian ocean base.


Of course they will be a maintenance headache - and hopefully any bombers we purchase will be paisa vasool for us also - like the Mig 25s were

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby shiv » 28 Apr 2017 20:19

Geopolitically - India has no allies who act as sati Savitri loyal partner selling us bombers and not selling to assorted mchods. If we buy bombers from - say Russia - it makes Russian jobs and keeps their line open. Once the line is open the Russians will either want us to buy more, or will offer Tu-160 to assorted Indian Ocean assholes or maybe China - because they are profiting from the sales.

S-400 goes to China, India and Turkey. Guess whom Turkey will share with?

We need to become self reliant on big aircraft and meanwhile depend on missiles which we are getting good at.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karthik S » 28 Apr 2017 21:45

Rusies will sell china regardless if we buy anything. Didn't chinese buy an entire production line of a bomber. But unfortunately, we are dependent on roos for certain type of hardware.
Aside from it, we know we took roosi help for our ATV program, god knows how much they know that they can pass onto others.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Bala Vignesh » 29 Apr 2017 00:40

shiv wrote:In general on this forum people tend to be enamoured of the armed platforms with teeth - the more teeth the better. but when it comes to China - air logistics will be crucial. We are totally dependent of phoren for air logistics. We need to make our own transports. But the role is not romantic enough to attract jingo/patriot attention. A sligthly different reading of 1962 would be that we lost on logistics - or at least the Chinese won on logistics.

All their roads are logistics lines. The sat images may show nothing now but if it comes to war the Chinese will spend 6 months stocking up Tibet to kick our asses hard. At that time we will need the logistics to respond and take the war into their territory

Absolutely true that, Shivji.. We need something like the MTA program to get rolling yesterday.. We are able to build fighters but not a single transporter.
There was a discussion on this in the Transport aircraft thread about which all currently running project we can participate in to get some mutual benefits​ for a transport aircraft.
We should really look at joining the Japanese on their C2 project as a stepping stone, I feel. It is the right size of bird we require and with enough numbers should be able to get them to allow us to customise it to our needs.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 29 Apr 2017 02:45

Bala, The Can berra is gone so no point in talking about it. Besides you are rright its bomb load is much less than the Su-30MKI and its accuracy is much to be desired.
Due to modern air defences the bomberr has to attack at height of 3 km and about 20 kms away to be out of range of cheap SAMs. This puts a premium on aircraft navigation and bomb aim/release equipment.Su-30 with INS and LDP gives the punch. So how to qualitatively evaluate this?
We know from Mig 27 upgrades that, LDP aimed dumb bombs have been dropped with 10m acuracy from 3km height/15km distance. This is at Shiv Aroor blog and linked many times.

So one measure of effiectiveness is weight of bombs dropped/ Area of CEP. This gives kgs / given area.

So for Su-30MKI 8000/( 22/7)*(15)^2 = 11.313 kg/M^2

If we multiply by half the Su-30MKI fleet that gives total strike damage potential.
Now do that for LCA etc.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cosmo_R » 29 Apr 2017 04:07

What is a strategic bomber in our scenario? A plane that can travel long distances (1000-2500+ mile range?) and drop 30K pounds of bombs over the target from 3KM height and xyz distance from AAD; or a plane that can carry 12 cruise missiles with a ~500 mile standoff range; or a C-130 mod that drops a 20K pound thermobaric?

Unlike the US, we are going to face heavily contested airspace and we don't have the means to do a B2 stealth either. SO, I would think that an asymmetric/OOTB thinking might lead us to consider a SSGN that can fire up to 150 really cheap missiles.

Focus on expensive but highly survivable platform to deliver cheap missiles vs expensive but vulnerable platform to deliver cheap bombs.

We know how to make SSBNs/SSGNs. We have no idea how to make bombers. And, we don't really need them

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 29 Apr 2017 05:28

I support Shiv's idea for Indian aviation to develop a transport plane. It has many spiral opportunities. The day IAF supports the project , it has changed its doctrine. That's an indicator.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ranjan.rao » 29 Apr 2017 08:23

Cosmo a bomber does not make sense today but it will make sense 20 or 30 years down the line when India will be in top three economies in top three economies and we'll need strong power projection
Vitamin one may argue back in those days and time drones will be ruling the skies however very complete a drone transport all bumper in time unless we have done the development of a manned bomber

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 29 Apr 2017 15:37

weaponized 2 trials of the brahmos-A are coming up in May, followed by IOC.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cosmo_R » 29 Apr 2017 17:52

ramana wrote:I support Shiv's idea for Indian aviation to develop a transport plane. It has many spiral opportunities. The day IAF supports the project , it has changed its doctrine. That's an indicator.


OK, but approach it differently as Boeing might: we have a thriving domestic civil aviation sector—rope them in as end user partners through incentives (e.g. exemption from fuel tax for these planes, investment tax credit etc) and make the IAF and civil version on the same line like Boeing does with the 737/P8. Do it under a JV with the Gulf Airlines or their investors (these airlines are arguing for unfettered access in India.

Don't repeat the Avro 748/MTA exercise. Make it a private sector initiative—this way no political pressure on GoI from friend Russia/EU/US.

JMT

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cosmo_R » 29 Apr 2017 17:54

ranjan.rao wrote:Cosmo a bomber does not make sense today but it will make sense 20 or 30 years down the line when India will be in top three economies in top three economies and we'll need strong power projection
Vitamin one may argue back in those days and time drones will be ruling the skies however very complete a drone transport all bumper in time unless we have done the development of a manned bomber


Perhaps. But the financial decisions in India for defense are made budget to budget. Procurements are last minute after the fact. So, looking 20-30 years ahead is ambitious short of our having a DARPA in place.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karthik S » 30 Apr 2017 10:48

In keeping with changing military needs, the Indian Air Force (IAF) has been asked by its chief to maintain a state of combat readiness for a possible 10-day war with Pakistan. The force has also been told to be ready for a possible 15-day conflict with China.

The direction and necessary instructions were issued during an IAF commanders’ conference held in New Delhi during April 19-21.

“Air Chief Marshal B.S. Dhanoa has directed the IAF commanders to prepare for short duration but intense wars of 10 days in case of Pakistan and 15 days with respect to China to maintain razor-sharp operational preparedness and enhanced combat effectiveness,” a high-level source familiar with the developments told this newspaper.

Accordingly, the Directorate of Air Staff Inspection (DASI) has been asked to ascertain preparedness of all operational units to keep personnel and aircraft combat-ready with fully stocked-up weapons, missiles and alert radar systems.

DASI is the IAF’s inspecting body that assesses the tactical and operational level of IAF aircraft to ascertain if they are capable of meeting wartime requirements besides also rating the performance of IAF pilots and squadrons.

Besides the traditional IAF role of counter-air, strategic-air (including space) and counter-surface operations that formed the three elements of air strategy, combat-enabling operations have now come to form the fourth pillar of air operations.

It is well accepted that possible future wars between India and its neigbours won’t be long and protracted because of the looming nuclear threat and the possibility that more countries will be sucked into such a war in case it is prolonged.

The“Joint Doctrine of the Armed Forces — 2017”, a document released by the Indian military on Tuesday, also says that the character of future wars is likely to be “ambiguous, uncertain, short, swift, lethal, intense, precise, non-linear, unstructured, unpredictable, and hybrid”.

As a result, the IAF’s role too is changing due to the availability and deadly potential of cruise missiles like the Brahmos, long operational endurance of its combat fleet and much faster aircraft like the Su-30s, MiG-29s and Mirage-2000s.

For example, the Su-30 flies at about 2,100 kmph, with a range of 3,000 km and a capability to be airborne for more than 3.5 hours, making it technically possible to fly deep into Tibet, then to Pakistan, curve along the Arabian Sea seeking naval targets before touching down in airbases in central India or in Northeast India.

The IAF role has changed also because modern aerial platforms and weapons allow a commander to conduct independent, parallel operations with, or in support of surface and maritime operations both within and outside the battle space.

But certain factors also cramp the IAF’s capability. The current fleet strength of about 33 fighter squadrons or about 600 aircraft is far less than the required strength of at least 42 squadrons or about 790 fighter aircraft. The IAF is the world’s fourth largest air force in terms of personnel and aircraft and it operates in an air space spanning more than 40 million cubic km.


http://www.defencenews.in/article.aspx?id=251854

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby SajeevJino » 30 Apr 2017 11:04

a high-level source familiar with the developments told this newspaper.


Defense news redirects Asian age, Asian age redirects high level source


Amen

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 02 May 2017 06:22

BR page on IAF squadron strength:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Units ... Fleet.html

It gives jets total as 616 + 63 trainers.

And number of squadrons as 38.5 +3 (?) What are these 3?

Can some of the a/c at the training establishments be seconded to fighting units to augment them during a national emergency?

Can the LCA prototypes be flown in anger if it comes to that?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 02 May 2017 08:57

ramana wrote:BR page on IAF squadron strength:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Units ... Fleet.html

...
And number of squadrons as 38.5 +3 (?) What are these 3?
...

The totals don't add up. If you add up the total units, it comes to 40.5.

How come 5 MiG-21M/MF and 3.5 MiG-27ML still show up in that list? Thought they were retired already (or in the process of being number plated).

If we take those out, we end up with a total of 32 squadrons, which is what has been reported.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 02 May 2017 09:08

ramana wrote:...

Can some of the a/c at the training establishments be seconded to fighting units to augment them during a national emergency?
...


Yes.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Galle ... res/MOFTU/
...
MOFTU was formed on 15th December 1986 at Tezpur to impart stage 3 training on the Mig 21FL and Mig 21U. The primary role of the unit is to instruct operational flying training to pilots inducted into the fighter stream. MOFTU is the largest fighter-flying establishment in the Indian Air Force and consists of two squadrons, Alpha and Bravo. The unit has stood up twice for operational deployments in time of tension with Pakistan. The first being Operation Brass Tacks in January 1987 and more recently Operation Parakram in May 2002. Each time they despatched aircraft to operate at bases in Western Air Command, where they stood alert on operational readiness platforms. Experienced pilots were also despatched to other units to augment their aircrew strength.
...


ramana wrote:...

Can the LCA prototypes be flown in anger if it comes to that?


Yes, there are 8 combat capable LCA LSPs. Some of them participated in the IAF's Iron Fist 2013 and 2016 exercises where they dropped LGBs and fired CCMs. However, these are not standard production lot; on the field maintenance may be an issue as not all parts are what you find in SP. Each LSP is unique in its own way.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 02 May 2017 17:42

I don't know where the SE td disappeared to,but was this piece by BK posted? In a much earlier piece criticising the Rafale deal he gave some startling figs,costs of spares,maintenance,etc. : One M2K costs twice that of an MKI and a Rafale will cost twice that of an M2K! IT's how he has calculated the Rafale deal going to cost us at least $40B during its lifespan!

In this piece on Apr !st this yr. he argues that wtht the LCA who needs a legacy F-16?

https://bharatkarnad.com/2017/04/01/ind ... has-tejas/
Intro Xcpt:
India Doesn’t Require F-16s When it Has Tejas
Posted on April 1, 2017 by Bharat Karnad
Tejas Fighter plane performing a manoeuvre at the Hindon Air Force Base on October 8, 2016 in Ghaziabad
(Tejas at Hindon AFB, Ghaziabad, October 8, 2016)
PRIME MINISTER Narendra Modi’s visit to the US to meet President Donald J Trump is now on the front burner, with an emphasis on ‘deliverables’. If Delhi is keen on easing the H1B visa regime for Indian techies, Washington is eager that Modi sign up for the fourth generation F-16, a deal seen as ‘open sesame’ for endless future transactions on military hardware, and implement the Logistics Exchange Memorandum of Agreement. If the fourth generation F-16 is the key, what does it say about India that the BJP Government is interested in an antique American combat aircraft, optimised for air warfare of the 1970s, as a frontline fighter for the Indian Air Force well into the 21st century?


Back to the bombing requirement.We do not possess any N-sub apart from the Chakra (Akula-2) that has an LRCM capability like a USN Ohio,etc. Even the Chakra has only Klub,not BMos,etc.It could carry the longer ranged Kalibir seen in Syria,should the Russians sell it to us.
Attacking rtargets in the high Himalayas/Tibet means that the sub will have to be stationed as near to the BDesh coastline to fire these missiles and such a capability we may have in only a decade's time from now.

The far simpler solution is to quickly acquire SU-24s,which Sukhoi are churning out like sausages,very reasonably priced, and base them for the Chinese front in the NEast. Russia also has dozens of Backfires which require avionics and EW upgrading,once offered to us.The SU-34 has performed v.well in Syria and more are being ordered for the RuAF. Being from the same Flanker family will ensure a considerable degree of commonality with our MKIs. Just preparing for a 10 day war with Pak and 2 week or so war with China is ludicrous.We all saw how long the kargil War took and do you think that China will run out of steam in 2 weeks time?

Unless the IAF has the numbers in hand-and these cannot be acquired by buying ultra-expensive western eqpt.,we will be in sh*t street in the next war. The cheapest and most cost-effective way in which both capability and numbers can be obtained is to treat Tejas as a life-or-death situ,even starting a 3rd line if needed and buying MIG-29/35s/MKIs a many as we can and sealing the deal for the FGFA so that in 4-5 years time we may have one or two sqds. in service.. This will cut down the time required for acquisition and will require noi extra money or infrastructure for aircraft assembly/manufacture using HAL's existing plants which build Ru fighters.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby shiv » 02 May 2017 19:55

deleted
Last edited by shiv on 02 May 2017 20:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 02 May 2017 20:02

Philip wrote:...

https://bharatkarnad.com/2017/04/01/ind ... has-tejas/
Intro Xcpt:
India Doesn’t Require F-16s When it Has Tejas
Posted on April 1, 2017 by Bharat Karnad
...


...

...
In aerial warfare with Beyond Visual Range weapons, the ability to locate an adversary aircraft is of paramount importance, and here a fully loaded LCA has a lethal edge in terms of its very small radar cross section of 0.5 sq m. Relative to Gripen’s RCS of 0.7 sq m plus, and of between 3 sq m and 6 sq m for the F-16 and Rafale, the Tejas, is virtually invisible. Making the LCA stealthier still is the fact that 40 per cent of its body is made of radar-absorbing carbon composites versus 25 per cent for Gripen, and 10 per cent for F-16.
...

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby JTull » 02 May 2017 20:25

Making the LCA stealthier still is the fact that 40 per cent of its body is made of radar-absorbing carbon composites versus 25 per cent for Gripen, and 10 per cent for F-16.


Isn't that number much more than 40%?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 02 May 2017 20:33

I dont think it really matters if Tejas is 0.5m2 or Gripen is 0.1 m2 , In the end both platform will carry external weapons and drop tanks and that will drastically change its rcs , also factors like angle of aircraft wrt to radar , RF bands , maintenance etc.
More ever materials do matter but most LO is obtained by Shaping which neither of these types have in them.

Where this aircraft will have an advantage over other is the visual stealth aspect be it in WVR fight or when facing ground based ack ack/manpads having a small aircraft with low visual profile is any day better than big aircraft even if they are stealthy.

Many who might have visited AI would have noticed it is very difficult to keep track of Tejas against the sky with naked eyes even if one tries to focus hard on that bird compared to MKI or Rafale that glows like bright torch in dark background.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby rahulm » 03 May 2017 17:50

Crashed, Grounded, MiG-21 Pilot Wins Landmark Case Against India’s HAL (and government

The pilot’s court victory is significant for more than one reason. Apart from fixing accountability on HAL for the MiG-21 accident, Livefist has learnt the Delhi High Court has imposed costs on both HAL and the government


The implications of financial liability on manufacturers could be significant and the case appears to set a clear precedent. It also seems fairly clear that industry will need to look closely at the judgement.


I like the fact that accountability has been fixed on HAL and GOI.for too long we have been conditioned to blame our bad outcomes on fate and move on while the perpetrators go scott free and continue their merry ways.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 06 May 2017 01:55

IAF team to visit Malaysia to examine MiG-29s for possible purchase


The Indian government has decided to send a team of the Indian Air Force to examine the MiG-29 fleet, which is being replaced by Malaysia, for its use.
It will be a value purchase for the Indian Air Force which is short of hundreds of fighter jets since the cost of upgradation is expected to be minimal.

New Delhi (Sputnik) — The Malaysian government has planned to replace the MiG-29 fleet because it is 20 years old. Defense sources told Sputnik that an expert committee will be sent to Malaysia very soon for the purpose.

Earlier this month, the Indian and Malaysian Prime Ministers envisaged greater defense co-operation between the two countries including purchase of MiG-29. "There is a possibility too that India will buy our MiG 29 aircraft for refit. We reciprocate by accepting spare parts for our Sukhoi aircraft program," Prime Minister Najib Razak told the media the end of a six-day visit to India on April 5 as quoted by Bernama news agency.

Malaysia had bought 16 MiG-29s from Russia in 1995 but due to limited hours' training, lots of life is still left in six MiG-29s which are operational in the Royal Malaysian Air Force. India expects that with limited upgradation, the MiG-29s can be available for service for the next two decades. The cost of the upgradation is also expected to be low.

"Malaysia is a friendly country. India has for years supported training of Malaysian pilots by positioning MiG-29 instructors. India has also supported the maintenance of these aircraft and provided spares. India is quite conversant with the technical state of these aircraft. They may also come relatively cheap," said Air Marshal (Retd) Anil Chopra, the team leader of the MiG-21 upgrade project in Russia in the late 1990s.


The upgradation of the Indian Air Force's 67 MiG-29s is nearing completion with 90 percent of indigenous spare parts. "India has an ongoing program for MiG-29 upgrade. We will thus be able extend it to these Malaysian MiG-29 aircraft," Chopra said.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 06 May 2017 06:15

^^^

Continue getting more second hand MiG-29s and Mirage-2000s (and even Jaguars) over the course of next 7-years or so. Get 6 squadrons total. Upgrade them to the latest IAF standards. A cost-effective way to maintain and temporarily increase force-levels till 2030/35. It will allow for a smooth transition into the LCA Mk.1/1A/2, Rafale, FGFA, AMCA and UCAV over the next decade and a half.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ragupta » 06 May 2017 07:00

Why not design own bomber using 5/7 Kaveri, using 2 under each wind and 2/3 on fuselage like the business jet. should be low risk.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby shiv » 06 May 2017 08:00

ragupta wrote:Why not design own bomber using 5/7 Kaveri, using 2 under each wind and 2/3 on fuselage like the business jet. should be low risk.

According to me "lowest risk" is simply going ahead and building a jetliner, or as Yak herder said, take over a company that is doing that. Jetliners/transports are needed in hundreds if not thousands - but even this will be expensive and drain a lot of money. But it should give us the tooling and experience to build "bombers" of various sizes.

I dislike the word "bomber". In this day and age only the US continues the habit of carpet bombing civilian centers. I say we built a "large attack aircraft" or a "flying arsenal" based on experience and an existing industry of airliners

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby A Deshmukh » 06 May 2017 14:17

shiv wrote:I dislike the word "bomber". In this day and age only the US continues the habit of carpet bombing civilian centers. I say we built a "large attack aircraft" or a "flying arsenal" based on experience and an existing industry of airliners

we may need to carpet bomb huge tracts of TSP / POK infested with terrorists hiding in civilian areas.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby shiv » 06 May 2017 14:19

A Deshmukh wrote:
shiv wrote:I dislike the word "bomber". In this day and age only the US continues the habit of carpet bombing civilian centers. I say we built a "large attack aircraft" or a "flying arsenal" based on experience and an existing industry of airliners

we may need to carpet bomb huge tracts of TSP / POK infested with terrorists hiding in civilian areas.

Oh noooo. Carpet bombing has never worked. I blame American propaganda for making people think that it has.I think Americans have been made to get a warm fuzzy every few years with the govt and the media telling them "We're carpet bombing 'em slanteyes. Were carpet bombing 'em towelheads" etc - but it simply dos not work.

That said _ think I am gradually beginning to like the idea. So what if it does not work - but Indians will think that we are being tough and pro active. Who cares if it is effective or not so long as people feel good

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby A Deshmukh » 06 May 2017 14:40

shiv wrote:Oh noooo. Carpet bombing has never worked. ...
but it simply dos not work.

Shiv, It depends on what you call as "works" or what the goal is.
what is the cheapest way of razing Rawalpindi and Islamabad, without going nuclear?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby shiv » 06 May 2017 14:50

A Deshmukh wrote:Shiv, It depends on what you call as "works" or what the goal is.
what is the cheapest way of razing Rawalpindi and Islamabad, without going nuclear?

Never mind. Carpet bombing in my view is useless for actually achieving anything and I have come round to the conclusion that any entity who "carpet bombs" our cities and tries to hide behind the burqa saying "Oh its not nuclear" should simply be nuked. And I would expect to be nuked back if we tried that gaandamasti with any nuclear armed nation. Sooner or later someone will nuke the US for precisely the same reason.

You know that 1kiloton of explosive power is equal to 2000 bombs weighing 500 kg each. If a bomber can drop 100x500 kg bombs one would need 20 sorties to have the effect of 1 kiloton and you also know how much people pooh-pooh and dismiss the figure "1 kilioton"

This sham of slow-motion destruction by carpet bombing is unnecessary, too slow and virtually useless. If one must raze a city simply nuke them. Even 50 kiloton would be good.

My views.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karthik S » 06 May 2017 14:58

A Deshmukh wrote:
shiv wrote:Oh noooo. Carpet bombing has never worked. ...
but it simply dos not work.

Shiv, It depends on what you call as "works" or what the goal is.
what is the cheapest way of razing Rawalpindi and Islamabad, without going nuclear?



FOAB dropped by a transport aircraft once we have air dominance over their airspace.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ashishvikas » 09 May 2017 19:33

What “Make in India”? MoD penalises Tata Power (SED) for using indigenous parts !!

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2017/05/w ... -tata.html

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 09 May 2017 20:07

found these old videos . iaf m2k crash landing in mauritius due to landing gear failure. I dont know if mauritius has a AF at all, their one big airport can land upto A380 though and often has 777/A340 types from gulfies and france



IAF mig27 suffers engine flameout on takeoff and crashes in west bengal perhaps hashimara or kalaikunda. pilot was killed in the flames it seems.


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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 09 May 2017 20:36

GD, Why in this thread and not the Military Safety thread started by Shiv? It has a collection of such videos.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 09 May 2017 21:31

Shiv Aroor, aka Live Fist is writing a report on IAF acquisition policy being changed.

Link:

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/05/ ... blood.html



Shiv Aroor,

Get the feeling that India’s ‘Make in India’ fighter project(s) have gone cold over the last two months? Well, for one thing, you’re not alone. For another, you’re right — it definitely feels like they’re on the proverbial backburner. And there are good reasons. We begin the first of this week’s special two-part deep dive on the Indian Air Force’s Make In India fighter projects by bringing to you a breakdown distilled from a range of conversations over two weeks with several officers leading the acquisitions and plans processes at the IAF and Ministry of Defence.


1.As we speak, a quiet, hard-nosed process is on at the Indian Air Force Headquarters. Budget constraints are nothing new to the IAF. But under its present chief, Air Chief Marshal Birender Singh Dhanoa, the acquisitions and plans wing is conducting a no-nonsense re-ordering of acquisition priorities that will, in the words of a senior officer, ‘see many projects quietly disappear into thin air’. This is almost certainly going to mean blood for high value acquisitions that can be reasonably put off or cancelled.

2.There’s no doubt that fighter acquisitions remain a top priority for the IAF, and the current priority shake-up won’t likely kill any pipeline plans. However, the IAF will almost definitely prioritise funds to add more fighter numbers quickly to the force. This could manifest in a series of ways: (a) A reconfiguration of the Make In India foreign fighter projects to include a definite number of quickly deliverable flyaway units, (b) Fast-tracking the addition of Rafale orders beyond the 36 on contract.


{a) Could mean firm orders for LCA and b)My guess is the 36 units were a initial purchase and another 36 in second tranche would be purchased. Makes sense. The Mirage 2000s were handicapped by the first 40 purchase and then the govt stopped further purchases due to financial crisis etc.}


3.By all accounts, the departure of erstwhile Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has come as more than just a speedbreaker in proceedings that require a heavy political foot on the gas pedal at all times. There is no reason to believe that Parrikar’s successor Arun Jaitley won’t shepherd plans onward. But there’s no doubt in the minds of officers on the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), the MoD bureaucracy or at the very top of the IAF, that precious impetus has been abruptly lost with the exit of Parrikar, a rare intangible commodity that must now be rebuilt from scratch.

{ My take is the MF cannot stall MoD proposals as he is both. This could reduce the tensions between the two ministries. And fault will lie squarely with MF if thing don't get moving. For a career politician that is a suicide. One aside is the top brass should learn to not let things drag in endless trials and this should be a lesson. When you see a good civilian minster in charge push your proposals forward and not let the lowest level babus put objections and stop the acquisition process. A military service needs its weapons to fight.}


4.Livefist has learnt that in the weeks and months ahead, a far more realistic acquisition ethic is to become apparent from the Indian Air Force’s requirements wing. The re-ordering of modernisation priorities mentioned above will produce a new list that expunges several declared ‘big ticket’ acquisition plans. Top sources indicate that a clinical pruning (or ‘rationalisation’) of the IAF’s surface-to-air missile requirement, for instance, could be chief among this series of moves.


5.The Indo-Russian FGFA programme appears to be inching its way out of years of a troubling stall. A 5-member Indian committee tasked with identifying and defining what’s in it for India is all set to submit its report to the MoD in a week. In the meantime, reports suggest the two sides are set to conclude a ‘milestone’ design agreement on the FGFA/PMF. While the IAF’s interest in the FGFA remains, Livefist can confirm that the IAF has, at the behest of the erstwhile Parrikar-led MoD, wargamed an acquisitions scenario that envisages the total collapse of discussions with Moscow.

6.The Long Term Integrated Perspective Plan (LTIPP), a tri-service capability roadmap and wishlist produced by the Indian MoD under minister A.K. Antony in 2012-2013 has been an exercise in waste. Top sources say it is no longer even a broad, tentative touchstone for modernisation at any level. Unprioritised and without any committed budgetary support, it remains a sumptuous compilation of presentations with literally no concrete actionable elements to guide force additions.


{Sop clean mundu strikes even when in not in office!!! The halo is such that no one dares to raise a voice even tot point out the years of neglect. This AKA is worse than Krishna Menon.}


7.Under Parrikar, the Indian military were able to arrive at the most specific definition of what they needed to be prepared for in all circumstances: ten days of intense operations on any front and across dimensions. All plans, ammunition levels and reserves need to revolve around this. The benchmark was revisited recently at the Air Force Commanders’ Conference. Apart from aircraft both fixed wing and rotary, acquisition priorities include ammunition and ordnance across mission profiles and equipment for the IAF’s small Special Forces units.




So IAF is preparing to fight.
Now the Chief's recent orders to his commander reinforces the message very effectively.


Now we need to hear about the OFB getting its orders and how it plans to meet the chief's requirement.

Shiv, If you are reading this keep it coming.
Thanks, ramana

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby YashG » 28 May 2017 10:55

I wanted to know from the forum veterans on the how the RCS for aircrafts that IAF, PAF & PLAF maintain will be a factor in theatres we engage. To start with, the theatres will have SAMs, BVRs etc. Will in such a situation long range or medium range SAMs come into play?

How will RCS make an impact because the numbers are quite interesting ( all figures in m2).
Globalsecurity reports SU-MKI RCS at 4, Mig-21:3, Rafale : 1. LCA maybe in the smae range. A different source reported Mirage 2000 at 1-2.5. But what stands out is Su-27! it is reported at an RCS of 15!. I dont know how much to believe those figures but that would mean that J-11,J-16 and similar variants will be somewhere there. For PAF, JF-17 ( I vaguely remember reading it 4 somewhere), it being a derievative of mig-21, figure could be low - I couldnt find a source. But F-16 early variants is 5 while later ones, C onwards at 1.2

Given the likely basket of IAF planes, PLAF (not counting J-20) & PAF - How much will this play out?
Will it allow Akash to shoot down enemy planes & later MR-SAM or LR-SAM?
And jaguar will be likely pressed in strike penetration role - I have no figures for its - how will that fare?

Looking forward to forum experts on this.


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