Bharat Rakshak Forum Announcement

Hello Everyone,

A warm welcome back to the Bharat Rakshak Forum.

Important Notice: Due to a corruption in the BR forum database we regret to announce that data records relating to some of our registered users have been lost. We estimate approx. 500 user details are deleted.

To ease the process of recreating the user IDs we request members that have previously posted on the BR forums to recognise and identify their posts, once the posts are identified please contact the BRF moderator team by emailing BRF Mod Team with your post details.

The mod team will be able to update your username, email etc. so that the user history can be maintained.

Unfortunately for members that have never posted or have had all their posts deleted i.e. users that have 0 posts, we will be unable to recreate your account hence we request that you re-register again.

We apologise for any inconvenience caused and thank you for your understanding.

Regards,
Seetal

Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10755
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Gagan » 15 Nov 2017 09:36

Posting this DD video about 5th Gen aircraft development. It is in Hindi
At 13:30 there is a discussion about the 7 step process to develop a fighter plane. Air Cdre Trilok Chand, who says he was part of the LCA development team, also reports that there was russian help from a professor in tweaking the LCA software in increasing the AoA from 22° to 24°

Avionics, ultimately engines and airframe materials in the PAK-FA T-50 is part of Indian workshare

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKwZtG6iW30

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17868
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 15 Nov 2017 11:09

Tx Gagan for that FGFA input.Here's some controversial Rafale news,politically inspired methinks,posting it here as there are too many tds.
But is it a sign of more allegations to come that might derail the deal for more aircraft?

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/bus ... 646689.cms
Cong raises questions over Rafale deal, BJP hits back
PTI | Nov 14, 2017, 20:27 IST
New Delhi, Nov 14 () Raising questions over the Rafale fighter aircraft deal, the Congress today accused the government of having compromised national interest and security while promoting "crony capitalism" and causing a loss to the public exchequer.
The BJP rubbished the allegation, claiming it was intended to "divert attention" as the party bigwigs faced the prospect of being questioned in the AgustaWestland VVIP chopper scandal.
The Congress' communications department head Randeep Surjewala alleged the government neglected the interests of public sector Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) as Dassault Aviation, the french manufacturer of Rafale aircraft refused to transfer technology to it and instead entered into an agreement with Reliance Defence.
He also alleged that the aircraft was being purchased at much higher rates than what was decided after the completion of the tender process under the previous UPA government.
The BJP hit right back, with its spokesman GVL Narasimha Rao claiming that the Congress party was engaging in a "stunt" by raising the Rafale issue as it was scared at the prospect of its top leadership, including the Gandhis, being questioned in the VVIP chopper scam.
He said after the arrest of middleman Carlos Gerosa in Italy last month and his likely extradition to India soon, "the Congress has made baseless allegations over Rafale deal to divert public attention and to cry political vendetta".

"None of these stunts will work and the Congress must be ready to answer who took bribes in the AgustaWestland VVIP chopper deal as the money trail is going to become known after the extradition of Carlos Gerosa," he told .
"Modi government is known for integrity and all its actions are above board, while the Congress party is synonymous with sleaze, corruption and crony capitalism," he said.
Surjewala said the UPA government floated a tender on August 20, 2007 for purchase of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for the Air Force and, post negotiations, two of them--Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon remained in the reckoning.
On December 12, 2012, Rafale was declared L1 vendor, the bidder whose quotation is the lowest, with base price of USD 10.20 billion (Rs 54,000 crore according to the conversion rate prevalent then).
It was decided that of the 126 aircraft, 18 would come in fly away condition and the remaining 108 will be manufactured in India by HAL with transfer of techonology, he said.
After the Modi government was formed in May 2014, Surjewala said, the earlier Request for Proposal (RFP) for purchase of 126 aircraft was cancelled on July 30, 2015, and signed a deal on September 26 the next year for procurement of 36 Rafale fighter jets for USD 8.7 billion.
Later, he said, Anil Ambani's Reliance Defence Limited tied up with Dassault Aviation for a joint venture for defence production in India on October 3, 2016.
"There is complete non-transparency, flagrant violation of mandatory provision of Defence Procurement Procedure, sacrificing national interest on transfer of technology to PSU HAL and blatant promotion of financial interests of crony capitalist friends of the prime minister have marred the purchase of the aircraft," Surjewala alleged.
The Congress leader claimed that each aircraft would have cost Rs 526.10 crore in accordance with the negotiations under the UPA dispensation. Each aircraft would now cost Rs 1570.80 crore, he said, adding "huge" loss was being caused to the exchequer.
Surjewala also alleged that the deal between Dassault Aviation and Reliance Defence Limited did not have the approval of the Union Cabinet, Cabinet Committee on Security and Foreign Investment Promotion Board.
"It is time for Prime Minister Narendra Modi and his government to answer to people of India as to why government is buying 36 Rafale aircraft at a highly inflated price compared to originally negotiated base price by UPA-Congress," he said. SKC JTR SK SK

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3687
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 15 Nov 2017 13:00

^^^

Before all these items are RFI and purchased, finances need to be to sorted out first.
  1. How much money is truely available for such a purchase fiscal year-to-year? That is on top of existing liabilities.
  2. What are the actual costs of purchase inclusive of infrastructure, operations and maintenance?
  3. Are there enough funds to sustain it at 80% servicibility rates for year-to-year?
  4. How much for 10-day war reserve of weapons and parts specific for this new type? 30-day reserves?

How many can truely be afforded?

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 48148
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 16 Nov 2017 00:47

Philip, The Congress deal was that they get paid commission from the French even if out of office. That's the scam.

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10755
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Gagan » 16 Nov 2017 06:37

The french have a habit of reneging on promised bribes, as they did in the case of Pakistan's Agosta 90B sub deal and did not pay the Pakistani Vice Admirals and other military officers.
The Pakis responded by bombing the bus that was carrying french engineers on their way to the shipyard
The french investigated and sent in commandos and goons to kidnap and badly beat up and break the Pakistani vice admiral's legs. What happened to the others involved is not known.

Now if there was bribe involved, one can be sure that Politicians, MoD officers and some IAF top brass may be possibly involved. As has been seen in the Agusta Westland deal, while a former IAF chief has been taken out, the politicians involved are still beyond the long arms of the law.

While the officers and Jawans of the defence forces lay down their lives for the nation, without a second thought, something happens to some people when in the MoD and other areas. There are black sheep.
We will do a huge disservice to the nation if we close our eyes to this aspect. Due vigilence, whistleblower protection, an honest government and media activism are all needed.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 48148
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 16 Nov 2017 06:43

Augusta lets see.

Liberal democracy has a big loop hole. Corruption by defeated opponents wont be investigated as it will be charged as political vindictiveness.
You see that in US also now.

ArjunPandit
BRFite
Posts: 658
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 16 Nov 2017 07:16

Gagan wrote:The french investigated and sent in commandos and goons to kidnap and badly beat up and break the Pakistani vice admiral's legs. What happened to the others involved is not known.

OT but can you share the link to it, i searched and can't seem to find any such news.

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10755
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Gagan » 16 Nov 2017 07:50

Will have to google up the relevant news article myself. But this was common knowledge I thought

Prithwiraj
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 59
Joined: 21 Dec 2016 18:48

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Prithwiraj » 16 Nov 2017 07:55

ArjunPandit wrote:
Gagan wrote:The french investigated and sent in commandos and goons to kidnap and badly beat up and break the Pakistani vice admiral's legs. What happened to the others involved is not known.

OT but can you share the link to it, i searched and can't seem to find any such news.

Search for Karachi Affair....wiki will show it as first result in google

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10755
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Gagan » 16 Nov 2017 08:09

Posted some infor in Terroristan thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7599&p=2230526#p2230526

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17868
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 16 Nov 2017 13:07

Rafale Deal is No Scam, Says France; Reliance Defence threatens to sue Congress : 10 Points
Thursday, November 16, 2017
By: TNN

France has rejected the Congress party's allegation that the Narendra Modi government has negotiated an overpriced deal with French company Dassault Aviation to supply the Indian Air Force with 36 state-of-the-art Rafale fighter jets, while the Anil Ambani-led Reliance Defence Limited has threatened to sue the opposition party if it does not retract its charge that it was unfairly picked to be the French firm's Indian partner. The first Rafale jets are to be inducted into the Indian Air Force from 2019 onwards.

Here's your 10-point cheat-sheet to this big story:

1. "This fighter jet has been selected for its outstanding performance and competitive price. It was selected through a fully transparent and competitive process," French diplomatic sources said today, describing the Congress' allegations as "a domestic political matter" that they would not like to enter.

2. The Congress alleged on Tuesday that Prime Minister Narendra Modi's government has caused the exchequer an "insurmountable loss" by signing the deal for 36 Rafale aircraft from France for Rs. 58,000 crore (7.8 billion Euros). The opposition party has said that the cost of each aircraft is three times more than the price negotiated with France by the previous Congress-led UPA government in 2012.

3. The Congress has also accused the government of "crony capitalism" by promoting "the interests of one industrial group, i.e Reliance Defence Limited, which has led to the company tying up and entering into a joint venture with Dassault Aviation worth Rs. 30,000 crores?"

4. Reliance Defence today warned of legal action against the Congress if it does not withdraw the allegations. "Government policy issued on 24 June 2016 allows for 49% FDI in the Defence Sector under the automatic route, without any prior approval. No approvals from the Union Cabinet or CCS were required for the formation of the aforesaid Joint Venture company under the automatic route," the company said in a statement.

5. The BJP has called the Congress allegations a "stunt" to deflect attention from the prospect of its top leaders, including the Gandhis, being questioned in the AgustaWestland VVIP chopper scam.

6. The price of each aircraft in the current deal is higher than was negotiated in 2012, but several aspects of the new deal that have sent the cost up have not been stated by the Congress in its latest allegations. :?:

7. After Rafale emerged as the lowest bidder in an international tender in 2012, the final deal for 126 aircraft was never closed by the UPA government. By the time the BJP-led government came to power in 2014, the deal was deadlocked with Dassault refusing to certify key components of the jet which were to be built by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, unless a series of conditions were met.

8. With no deal around the corner and with successive Air Chiefs telling the government that India's air defence would be seriously affected without the jets being inducted, PM Modi had announced an off-the-shelf purchase from France during a visit to Paris in April 2015. "France has always been a reliable supplier for India from jet fighters to submarines," the Prime Minister said.

9. The final deal came at 2016 prices, significantly higher than what was on offer four years earlier. Also, it was calculated that manpower required to assemble each jet was nearly three times higher in India than it was in France.

10. Apart from the aircraft, the new price also includes state of the art weaponry, spares support for seven years and India-specific customisation of the jet that the French Air Force and Navy operate. The French will also guarantee the performance of the Rafale and provide complete logistics support to ensure that 75 per cent of the fleet will be battle-worthy when required. The deal negotiated by the Congress government had not included these.

Rudradev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2858
Joined: 06 Apr 2003 12:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rudradev » 17 Nov 2017 03:05

FOLLOW UP TO IAF HINDON STATION (GHAZIABAD, UP) ATTEMPTED BREACH

http://www.timesnownews.com/india/artic ... bad/125729

Suspect is a 25-year-old man from Pratapgarh, UP who gave his name as "Sujeet Kumar"

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/didnt-h ... se-1775599

This is what he told intel officers and police under questioning:

The Indian Air Force's intelligence wing and the police are grilling him and trying to ascertain whether he had any terror links. Sujeet reportedly told officers that someone had promised him a good job in Saudi Arabia and he was preparing to "take a ride" in one of the planes at the airbase.


This is what he told reporters afterwards, changing his story:

To reporters, Sujeet said this: "I didn't have anything to eat and just wanted to sit there, I won't do it again."


The man is either a druggie and/or mentally deficient person, OR he is pretending to be that. Changing the story seems to suggest that he is not all that simple-minded, so perhaps there is subterfuge involved. He could be at least a disposable drone sent by jihadis to probe readiness and defenses.

Note also that there had been an IB alert regarding a possible terrorist attack on this very airbase in the preceding days.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 48148
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 18 Nov 2017 10:18

Old history of how Jaguar was chosen and the Mirage 2000.

http://www.vayuaerospace.in/past_issues ... un2015.pdf

Also gives a good description of the LGB integration for usage in Kargil. Also gives number of sorties and tonnage of bombs dropped in addition to the artillery shells.


BTW how is the Mirage 2000 upgrade going on at HAL?

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17868
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 18 Nov 2017 19:21

That's what I've said elsewhere that the Cong. can't jump and shout too much as the "R" co. was embedded in the deal during their tenure! However The DM should reveal why costs increased as stated extra requirements/ whatever were renegotiated for the same later on.
Nevertheless, in the ultimate analysis the Rafale is the equiv. of a "Rolls Royce " purchase without any cutting edge tech transfer which was the original intention of the MMRCA req. , to upgrade the Indian aircraft industry, when what we were looking for was a multi-role SUV like a Land Rover Discovery Sport which is available at 1/5th the price!

VinodTK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2116
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby VinodTK » 18 Nov 2017 22:12

Philip wrote:Nevertheless, in the ultimate analysis the Rafale is the equiv. of a "Rolls Royce " purchase without any cutting edge tech transfer which was the original intention of the MMRCA req. , to upgrade the Indian aircraft industry, when what we were looking for was a multi-role SUV like a Land Rover Discovery Sport which is available at 1/5th the price!

Other then Russian junk, nothing is available for 1/5th the price, and even the Russians will not do true technology transfer, if they did after manufacturing hundreds of Russian aircraft's India would have become a truly world class aircraft manifacturing nation

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17868
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 18 Nov 2017 22:25

The offer is there for the MIG-35, full TOT with any local partner.The upgraded MIG-29s are not junk.In prev. exercises the legacy MIG-29 trumped the M2K every time (AM Masand in Vayu).Legacy MIG-29s similarly bested the F-16 too, German /NATO findings.Don't forget that today the MKI is over 70% made with indigenous material and engines made with 100% ,50 out of 350+ delivered by Nasik thus far.The MKI is the backbone of the IAF which has bested the best of the west barring the F-22 .It's why the IAF has/is acquiring more MKIs to field around 300 by 2020 and upgrade a first batch to SS std. to carry BMos...another "junk" Russian weapon system I suppose!

The MIG-35/29 and LCAs are the most cost-effective aircraft to acquire by which the IAF can boost its sqd. strength to 45+ without too much of expenditure,allowing it to acquire extra AWACS , desi AEWC aircraft, tankers, transports, and heavy helos.Extra Rafales will bludgeon the budget and the IAF will continue to whinge about the lack of the other afore- mentioned aircraft that the govt. has no money for.

SiddharthS
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 28
Joined: 04 Sep 2017 15:45

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby SiddharthS » 19 Nov 2017 06:47

This is a very good paper on kargil war.

http://carnegieendowment.org/2012/09/20 ... -pub-49421

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4166
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 19 Nov 2017 07:57

Philip wrote:The offer is there for the MIG-35, full TOT with any local partner.

How is the view of the Kremlin from your apartment in Moscow?

Philip wrote:The MIG-35/29 and LCAs are the most cost-effective aircraft to acquire..

After spending all this time deriding the Tejas program, you now believe it is cost effective? :roll:

Vips
BRFite
Posts: 263
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Vips » 19 Nov 2017 09:23

Would the Landing/Under Carriage of Mig 29/35 be working good? Are the engines belching black smoke or did the ruskies extort enough money from India to fix both problems?

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17868
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 19 Nov 2017 09:46

Not as good as the view of the White House and Trump Tower from yours!

When the LCA was being kicked around like a football with little progress,I indeed criticised it having been given a detailed first hand account by a key insider of what was then " a fraud upon the nation." Later on after learning about the high cost of imports, the Rafale deal in the doldrums, the stakeholders realised that there was no alternative but to make it happen if the IAF wanted to maintain its numbers and capability.The "make in India" mantra from Mr.Modi saw the project crest the hill andenter the LSP stage.The situ now is that at the moment of series production with another prod. line being planned, vested interests are keen on sabotaging our desi independence in fighter aviation .Poor prod. rates and delays in accelerating MK-1A/MK-2s have given the firang merchants an opportunity.

On the cost factor alone, where the LCA was merely expected to replace the MIG-21, it is 1/8th the cost of a single Rafale! Even if another batch of Rafales comes in with a 30% touted discount, it is still 1/6th the cost.A MIG-35 is around 1/3rd and an MKI 1/2. I posted recently how Canada's AVRO Arrow, the most advanced fighter of its time, a Mach 3 bird with incredible range and alt, was deliberately squashed by the US aviation industry overnight in cahoots with the then Canadian PM.Shiv has posted a clip " who is sabotaging the Tejas ?" too.

Even the HAL Can had to recently come out and laud the FGFA project as it would give us a quantum leap in cutting edge stealth tech, but here too the saboteurs are at work, preferring that we buy two antiques from Disneyland.Mickey Mouse birds while denying us real advanced fighter tech.

PS: There's enough news and info about the 29K's smokeless engines and the recent exercises where they showed their skills with US and other carriers.The ruggedness of the aircraft after repeated landings was/is an issue that MIG must rectify.When The Talwar FFGs had some weapon system teething problems, the GOI reportedly imposed a $40M penalty upon the
manufacturer for delays.If we have it in the agreement, a similar penalty could be imposed .But have we done so with the poor performance of Israeli Derby AAM's, the late arrival of Barak-8 and the excruciating delays /failures of indigenous weapon systems including the Late Combat Aircaft, INTO, etc?

The IAF's 29s upgraded at a fraction of the cost of just one M2K ($50M/ bird as opposed to $10-15M for a 29) are doing find with the IAF.

Kashi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2569
Joined: 06 May 2011 13:53

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kashi » 19 Nov 2017 12:31

Philip wrote:The IAF's 29s upgraded at a fraction of the cost of just one M2K ($50M/ bird as opposed to $10-15M for a 29) are doing find with the IAF.


Can you provide the fleet availability and serviceability numbers for Mig 29UPGs and Mig29Ks?

srin
BRFite
Posts: 1400
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:13

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srin » 19 Nov 2017 15:05

Vips wrote:Would the Landing/Under Carriage of Mig 29/35 be working good? Are the engines belching black smoke or did the ruskies extort enough money from India to fix both problems?


Looking at the Mig-29K, the engines do seem a bit smoky. Not as much as the old Mig-29s, but noticeably so. And the seawasp engines are advertised as smokeless :roll:

Manish_P
BRFite
Posts: 981
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 19 Nov 2017 16:22

Philip wrote:I posted recently how Canada's AVRO Arrow, the most advanced fighter of its time, a Mach 3 bird with incredible range and alt, was deliberately squashed by the US aviation industry overnight in cahoots with the then Canadian PM.


:shock:

As per most sources, it didn't even reach Mach 2.

And it was arguably inferior in speed, range, ceiling and radar, to both the F-106 Delta Dart (which incidentally carried weapons internally) and the F-4 Phantom II

chola
BRFite
Posts: 1746
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 19 Nov 2017 16:42

VinodTK wrote:
Philip wrote:Nevertheless, in the ultimate analysis the Rafale is the equiv. of a "Rolls Royce " purchase without any cutting edge tech transfer which was the original intention of the MMRCA req. , to upgrade the Indian aircraft industry, when what we were looking for was a multi-role SUV like a Land Rover Discovery Sport which is available at 1/5th the price!

Other then Russian junk, nothing is available for 1/5th the price, and even the Russians will not do true technology transfer, if they did after manufacturing hundreds of Russian aircraft's India would have become a truly world class aircraft manifacturing nation


Yes exactly! We’ve built over 1000 MiG-21, MiG-27 and Su-30 MKI. But when it comes to building our own aircraft, the LCA, none of the Russian lines and techniques were useful at all. Our scientists needed to go to the US to work on critical subsystems including FBW (where they were caught up in the embargo after Pokhran.)

Russian “ToT” is a dead end. They put so many restrictions on us that HAL cries about the ending of MKI production. If those lines were real ToT where “transfer” had really taken place and we owned the technology then HAL should be able to use them for new projects involving the Flanker airframe.

But we can’t do anything outside the contractual straitjacket which is one plane variant and one production run at a time. That is not ToT, that’s nothing more than subtlcontracting work. Russian “ToT” is a complete lie.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3687
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 20 Nov 2017 08:25

chola wrote:...

Yes exactly! We’ve built over 1000 MiG-21, MiG-27 and Su-30 MKI. But when it comes to building our own aircraft, the LCA, none of the Russian lines and techniques were useful at all. Our scientists needed to go to the US to work on critical subsystems including FBW (where they were caught up in the embargo after Pokhran.)

Russian “ToT” is a dead end. They put so many restrictions on us that HAL cries about the ending of MKI production. If those lines were real ToT where “transfer” had really taken place and we owned the technology then HAL should be able to use them for new projects involving the Flanker airframe.

But we can’t do anything outside the contractual straitjacket which is one plane variant and one production run at a time. That is not ToT, that’s nothing more than subtlcontracting work. Russian “ToT” is a complete lie.

ToT are the same regardless of their source.

VinodTK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2116
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby VinodTK » 20 Nov 2017 08:50

srai wrote:ToT are the same regardless of their source.


Wonder why the Chinese were able to get the required knoladge out of the same process (building Russian aircraft) and start their own aircraft industry and India has not been able to do the same!!

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3687
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 20 Nov 2017 08:55

^^^
Depends on whether you want to adhere to the letter of the law or not for one thing ;)

Most of the ToT in the Indian context seems to be specific to the aircraft type being license manufactured and possibly maintenance. Not much beyond that where the technologies could be freely applied to other national projects.

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2176
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby tsarkar » 20 Nov 2017 10:37

VinodTK wrote:
srai wrote:ToT are the same regardless of their source.


Wonder why the Chinese were able to get the required knoladge out of the same process (building Russian aircraft) and start their own aircraft industry and India has not been able to do the same!!


The Chinese are building nothing beyond what they've licensed or commissioned.

Their WZ-10 attack helicopter was designed by Kamov.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-8epxnSbUHvc/U ... /WZ-10.jpg
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... gn-383147/

Their Su-27 derivatives use basic N001 Myech radar and AL-31 engines with rudimentary upgrades and not to the standard of Bars and Al-31FP.

Carrier fighter based on Su-33 - again licenses and royalties paid as commission.

Their J-20 is based on evolution of MiG 1.42 & 1.44

Their J-10 is based on Israeli Lavi

J-31 is based on Lockheed data theft - but its not going anywhere or progressing.

Show me something Chinese that has exceeded what Russians or Israelis or French or Germans sold to them. They pay for confidentiality also - check the Kamov's Chief Designer's quote.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17868
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 20 Nov 2017 17:11

The billion $ Q is where do we want to go? Don't blame the Russians for depriving ourselves of indigenous design,what did WE do with the HF-24 and Gnat/Ajeet? When the SU-30 was acquired,there was abso NO requirement for Russia/USSR to assist in creating a design bureau for India.WE felt we were competent enough and proved it too,with the upgrades of the bird into the definitive MKI. What helped us achieve this was the sound platform of the SU-27/30 and its engines,radar,etc. There was no need for us to tinker with the aerodynamics,etc.Same with the MIG-29 buy.Where have we ever asked the OEM for assistance in indigenous design,even with the M2K purchase? e're today paying an astronomical and highly suspicious $50M per plane for a mere upgrade when a brand new MIG-29K cost us just #32M,plus the cost of a MIG-29 upgrade only $10-12M each!

Even the offsets or the Rafale do NOT help us with indigenous fighter /engine design,which we should've stressed in the $7.5+ B buy for just 36 aircraft.Instead the "R" co. is assembling/screwdriver tech yet again,Falcon business jets!

There is something fishy with the French deals.Every single one is highly overpriced ,from Scorpenes-( around $700M each) a couple of hundreds of million $$ extra than what even a U-209 would cost (around $500M) ,let alone a Kilo-2 at only $300M! Mirage upgrades costlier than brand new LCAs, MIG-29/35s,and Rafales at Rolls Royce prices.Imagine buying a Peugeot or Renault for the price of a Roller or Bentley! It can happen only in India....

On the other hand the Chinese are relentlessly building up their indigenous capability in every sphere.From time to time I get posts about new Chin developments like bridges,engineering,aerospace,military dev.,etc.,but was astonished to see a new Chin building-of all things a library,simply shock and awe.China is building ...sorry,built a sensational library for "BOOKS",when the rest of the world is going digital.The shape is organic like a giant oval with a massive interior space and terraces for lakhs if not millions of books! In ancient times,Egypt was the epi-centre of knowledge with the Great Libarary of Alexandria-which the Romans cretinously burnt,the most barbaric act in human history.Knowledge from the super-civilisation that was wiped out with the comet strike around 11,000 BC and pre-Diluvian ancient Sumeria from 5000BC were supposed to have been contained in the library.
One can now clearly see where China is heading with its emphasis on securing knowledge for future generations,for global pre-eminence.In India unfortunately,in parts of the country we're rewriting history and burning books and films that we don't like,returning to mediaeval times while China is reaching for the stars.
Last edited by Philip on 20 Nov 2017 17:32, edited 2 times in total.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34011
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby shiv » 20 Nov 2017 17:23

tsarkar wrote:Show me something Chinese that has exceeded what Russians or Israelis or French or Germans sold to them.

https://www.wired.com/images_blogs/gadg ... gway_1.jpg
sorry OT :lol:

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 2720
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby JayS » 20 Nov 2017 18:11

http://zeenews.india.com/india/iafs-c-1 ... 58211.html

NEW DELHI: The Indian Air Force's C-130 Super Hercules plane has set a new record for longest non-stop flight, the IAF said.

The Hercules carried out a grueling 13-hour-31-minute non-stop flight, setting not only an IAF record but also globally, it said in a tweet.

“The team got airborne at first light on Nov 18 and landed only at 6:31 pm. This required great courage, skill and strength on part of the team,” it added.


Read elsewhere that, they started from Hindon and went for a pradakshina around jambudweep.

I wonder what this drill is targeted for.. :wink: Exciting possibilities...

deejay
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3628
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby deejay » 20 Nov 2017 18:21

^Importing some more? Very exciting indeed.

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 2720
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby JayS » 20 Nov 2017 19:56

deejay wrote:^Importing some more? Very exciting indeed.


I wouldn't mind. Its an excellent bird and has very extensive global support and impressive availability.

Manish_P
BRFite
Posts: 981
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 20 Nov 2017 20:10

JayS wrote:http://zeenews.india.com/india/iafs-c-130-hercules-plane-sets-new-record-2058211.html

NEW DELHI: The Indian Air Force's C-130 Super Hercules plane has set a new record for longest non-stop flight, the IAF said.

The Hercules carried out a grueling 13-hour-31-minute non-stop flight, setting not only an IAF record but also globally, it said in a tweet.

“The team got airborne at first light on Nov 18 and landed only at 6:31 pm. This required great courage, skill and strength on part of the team,” it added.


Wow. Keeping the Flag flying high. Congrats to the Indian Air Force !!

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 48148
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 20 Nov 2017 22:12

Philip, In your long posts your point gets buried. Can you post it at the top or the bottom so its clear?

Also don't post these long winded ones in every thread.

ramana

viveks
BRFite
Posts: 187
Joined: 17 Nov 2004 06:01

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby viveks » 20 Nov 2017 23:54

Philip...I agree that the french toys are expensive. But I also believe that there would be a great deal of reason for those prices. Maybe in terms of durability...the quality of testing, the nature of the work carried out to make these toys and their ability to sustain good human working conditions when the chips are really low. I agree that that the Mirage 2000 upgrade is expensive but when you see the videos of the way the aircraft handles....the capability of ordinance...the service time...for some specific reason the IAF just does not talk much about the Mirage.

I think the Rafale would be just too over-whelming for them and they collectively agree to see it their inventory. It speaks volumes that the Air Chief was vocal to shut down any scandal coming out from the political brass. Lets hope the IAF get what they are preparing themselves for.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 48148
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 21 Nov 2017 00:18

JayS et al, Taking the data from Jagan's books can we come up with similar articles for 1965, 1971 and 1999 air wars linked in the following x-post?

JayS wrote:
shiv wrote:What sort of data are you looking for? (Oh OK I just saw that last part of your post) I have earlier linked a site that mentions actual mission data records of the Gripen and I used charts from that site for my second video. The site makes some very interesting and pertinent observations. For example - in "surge" operations the Gripen needs 6 hours maintenance time after every 4 hours flying. To stay safe the "expected length" of an earlier combat sortie is used. That is, if the last sortie was 1.5 hours, the next one will be 1.5 hours too. Then the Gripen would have used up 3 of its allowed 4 hours before standing down. Since the third sortie also is expected to be 1.5 hours - it will exceed the 4 hour limit so the Gripen has to come off the line for 6 hours maintenance after just 2 sorties. This cannot go on for long. When the force settles down to "sustained" ops the take down time for Gripen for maintenance is 20 hours.

The site points out that 70% fleet availability would be the norm in wartime. (Remember the Su-30 had reached 70%? ) The charts also show that that vast majority of missions were less than 500 km and only a couple were listed as 800 km

The site also talks of how long it takes to arm a fighter and how much time is needed for pilot rest - so even if the plane has "hot refuelling" other factors come into play.

Here is the link. I believe it is essential reading for any jingo who speaks of combat aircraft
http://www.warfaresims.com/?page_id=3262




Saw the page, you shared on Twitter. Very good resource. A good remedy for Brochuritis if the patient has patience to read through... :lol:

Avtar Singh
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 65
Joined: 22 Jan 2017 02:07

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Avtar Singh » 21 Nov 2017 03:09

longest ever c130 flight, sorry but the british have already done it

scroggs
16th Oct 2001, 01:25
The longest C130 mission in the Falklands era was by XV179 on 18/19 June 1982, at 28 hrs 4 minutes. At the time, it was the longest-ever operational military non-stop flight, the furthest out-and-back airdrop, and the longest-ever flight by a C130 of any operator. F/L Terry Locke was the Captain, I was the co.
I understood that the long B2 missions over the last few days included a ground stop and crew change at Diego Garcia, and are not non-stop flights. I believe the there-and-back flying time is around 32 hours, so if the overall mission time is 44 hours, that's a 12 hour stop on the island. Given the distances and speeds involved, I think that's more credible than 44 hours airborne.

ArjunPandit
BRFite
Posts: 658
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 21 Nov 2017 04:18

JayS wrote:
I wonder what this drill is targeted for.. :wink:
Exciting possibilities
...

illuminate the beings of darker world

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34011
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby shiv » 21 Nov 2017 08:12

Let me repeat a point about imported aircraft, no matter how good and/or inexpensive they are. When an Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) allows us to build under licence - the supply us with a lot of things including the expertise to solve problems (like accidents). There is some proprietary stuff that is NEVR given to us. For example they may not reveal the exact reasons for selecting a particular design for some major component and the total stresses it is going to have to bear. The reason being that if any modification has to be done - they have to do it. They do the testing.

Air Marshal Rajkumar is on record writing about some modification on the Jaguar for which he did the test flying under instructions from a BAe engineer who was asking him to climb to some particular altitude and perform some manoeuvres repeatedly to test the modification. Finally the Brits refuse to allow that modification and it was called off.

For the OEM this is important. Recall how HAL was blamed and we all flagellated ourselves like it was Muharram for us when those Dhruvs crashed in Ecuador. The first instinct will be to blame the manufacturer and they seek to protect themselves

In a completely home designed aircraft we have all the data. There was this interview of someone about the Tejas where it was pointed out that if we have a Russian plane and an Israeli missile - we have to do a lot of guesswork about what signals are going to be doing. One has to guess what the cockpit is "saying" to the missile and what the missile "understands". That guesswork is removed when we use our own stuff.

When I was much younger I used to hear the expression "transfer of tech" and it never occurred to me that senior people in the highest decision making bodies and media were as naive and ignorant as me in imagining that everything gets handed down. Nothing of the sort. Ultimately critical work has to be done by us. At home.

And I hate to say this but I think I must. It seems to me that to some extent our armed forces behave like a warrior clan who will protect using arms that someone else must make and give to them. They do not see themselves as engineers or boffins who contribute to the development of the weapons. I must not be harsh but it's almost like the kshatriya warrior not wanting to engage himself in non martial shudra stuff. The Shudra makes the sword and the kshatriya fights. If the sword is no good, give the shudra a kick on his backside - but the kshatriya ain't gonna involve himself in joining to shudra to make a better sword. The hard reality may be that this is the "warrior culture" that has come down from British days or earlier. This needs modificaation


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bart S, prasannasimha, Yahoo [Bot] and 49 guests