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Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Aditya_V
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 20 Sep 2017 16:56

Are we expecting a war soon, getting the hawk ready for Combat?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Bala Vignesh » 20 Sep 2017 16:59

IAF looking at arming Hawks with Brownstones and ASRAAM- Livefist

Strange considering that they have an option of taking up the upgrade to the Advanced hawk standard which not only delivers the said weapons capabilities plus also adds approx 10% more powerful engine along with an improved wing in terms of its turning characteristics.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 20 Sep 2017 17:36

Well now looking at the LCA thread it seems the IAF wants ASRAAM (which shares the same seeker as the Aim-9X) on the LCA as well, I guess IAF is pretty impressed with the Asraam Seeker and relatively long range for a WVR missile.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby shiv » 20 Sep 2017 21:41

Aditya_V wrote:Well now looking at the LCA thread it seems the IAF wants ASRAAM (which shares the same seeker as the Aim-9X) on the LCA as well, I guess IAF is pretty impressed with the Asraam Seeker and relatively long range for a WVR missile.

according to BRF interpretation of some media article, if I may add..

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby shiv » 20 Sep 2017 21:42

Bala Vignesh wrote:IAF looking at arming Hawks with Brownstones and ASRAAM- Livefist

Strange considering that they have an option of taking up the upgrade to the Advanced hawk standard which not only delivers the said weapons capabilities plus also adds approx 10% more powerful engine along with an improved wing in terms of its turning characteristics.

Senior MBDA officials tell Livefist that the IAF is engaged in detailed discussions on a potential program that the company says will be

Lifafa source - MBDA. No IAF source.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Indranil » 20 Sep 2017 21:44

It means nothing other than MBDA said that IAF is interested. Elta also says the same about Python and IAF.

P.S. Hakeem beat me to it.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 22 Sep 2017 05:54

Doklam stand-off gain: IAF to build more bomb-proof hangars across northeast
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indi ... 53184.html

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 22 Sep 2017 22:57

Rakesh, Please at-least provide the gist in two lines .

Silly site freezes.

its turns up as clickbait.
is that what we want to reduce the BRF to be a google type clickbait site?

If it goes against your grain, then please stop posting links.

Thanks,
ramana

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 23 Sep 2017 01:48

sorry boss :) I will post small snippets.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 23 Sep 2017 01:51

Thanks. No boss just frustrated at having to restart computer due to freeze.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 23 Sep 2017 02:22

I think they are using java (someone correct me if I am wrong) but their script is all whacked and is causing browsers to freeze.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 23 Sep 2017 03:24

JayS, Why not look at the HAL made Hawks and see if they can be armed with the AAW or Brimstone and AAMs?

Look at the hard-points.
What is the load capacity at what Gs? and what electronics is there already?
What extra needed?
let members know what it takes to study how existing design modifications entail?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 23 Sep 2017 03:36

BAE Hawk: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_Systems_Hawk

IAF has model Hawk 132 which is supposed to be same as Model 115A

General characteristics
Crew: 2: student, instructor
Length: 12.43 m (40 ft 9 in)
Wingspan: 9.94 m (32 ft 7 in)
Height: 3.98 m (13 ft 1 in)
Wing area: 16.70 m2 (179.64 ft2)
Empty weight: 4,480 kg (9,880 lb)
Useful load: 3,000 kg (6,600 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 9,100 kg (20,000 lb)
Powerplant: 1× Rolls-Royce Turbomeca Adour Mk. 951 turbofan with FADEC, 29 kN (6,500 lbf) 29 kN

Performance
Never exceed speed: Mach 1.2 (in dive)
Maximum speed: Mach 0.84 (1,028 km/h, 638 mph) at altitude
Range: 2,520 km (1,360 nmi, 1,565 mi)
Service ceiling: 13,565 m (44,500 ft)
Rate of climb: 47 m/s (9,300 ft/min)
Thrust/weight: 0.65

Armament

Note: all armament is optional.1× 30 mm ADEN cannon, in centreline pod

Up to 6,800 lb (3,085 kg) of weapons on five hardpoints, including: 4× AIM-9 Sidewinder or ASRAAM or A-Darter on wing pylons and wingtip rails
2x Umbani or Al Tariq ????

1,500 lb (680 kg), limited to one centreline and two wing pylons (Hawk T1)



So it can carry a 30mm Aden in centerline pod and /or 4 Sidewinders. This means it has avionics to fire NATO standard AAMs. So need to find if it can fire the Python5 as its already there in IAF service.

Integrating R73 will be another science project. Magic etc. are too old.

So what are those 5 hard points like? Are these smart that carry data to the ordnance?

Should be if that Umbani is being carried!!!

How about looking at Osprey or some such aviation book and see what they are used for?

And then have Vivek ahuja help out on performance curves.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 23 Sep 2017 03:39

Image

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby shiv » 23 Sep 2017 08:07

What is Umbani? Not a relative of Dhirubhai I am guessing..

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 23 Sep 2017 09:30

^^^I am assuming Ramana-ji is referring to this...I am seeing this for the first time myself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denel_Dynamics_Umbani

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 23 Sep 2017 10:50

Yes. It was mentioned in the Wiki page.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 23 Sep 2017 10:51

So how to confirm if Hawk 135 does have thise hard points or not?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Viv S » 23 Sep 2017 11:14

Boost to IAF? India eyes $8 billion deal for 100 Avenger Predator drones with US

The estimated requirement of IAF is for 100 drones, sources said, adding that if a deal — most likely with San Diego-headquartered General Atomics — goes through, its size could be around $8 billion.

Having struck a deal with Washington recently to purchase Sea Guardian Unmanned Aerial Systems for the Indian Navy, the Narendra Modi government has now set its sights on acquiring jet-propelled Avenger Predator drones from the US for the Indian Air Force (IAF). The estimated requirement of IAF is for 100 drones, sources said, adding that if a deal — most likely with San Diego-headquartered General Atomics — goes through, its size could be around $8 billion.

Besides joint projects under the bilateral Defence Technology and Trade Initiative (DTTI), in her first major engagement with a foreign counterpart, defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman talks on September 26 with the US officials will focus on India-US defence cooperation, maritime security, avenger predator drones, counter-terrorism and other major issues of mutual concern, the sources added. Issues related to American defence companies seeking guarantees of retaining control of propriety and sensitive technologies in joint ventures under the “Make in India” policy, is expected to be raised by the US side.

As reported earlier by FE, the government had made a special official request for Sea Guardian drones “at the highest levels” in January this year and the Trump administration shepherded that through the inter-agency process in Washington DC as a deliverable for Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s June visit as this $2-billion deal is seen as unlocking the path to India being a major defence partner for the US. Renowned US aerospace scientist Dr Vivek Lall who was instrumental in over $10 billion of US defence sales to India and thereby changing the mix of Indian defense procurements primarily from Russia earlier, has been spearheading the initiative to concretise the US-India defence relationship.

Recent media reports have indicated that the Pakistan foreign ministry has objected to the Sea Guardian Predator sale saying it would upset the balance of military capability in the region. Pakistan had been lobbying at the state department prior to Modi’s visit to ensure the Sea Guardian is not offered to India in response to the latter’s request for such. The fact that the Trump administration did not take heed to Pakistan objections is a great diplomatic win for Modi. The visiting secretary is scheduled to meet Prime Minister Modi and national security advisor Ajit Doval on September 26.

Both countries have inked the logistics exchange memorandum of agreement (LEMOA), however, follow-on foundational agreements like the communication interoperability and security memorandum agreement (CISMOA) and the basic exchange and cooperation agreement (BECA) are still pending.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karthik S » 23 Sep 2017 11:18

Is it quid pro quo for our entry into MTCR regime.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Viv S » 23 Sep 2017 11:31

Karthik S wrote:Is it quid pro quo for our entry into MTCR regime.

Or did we enter the MTCR regime to gain access to Avenger-class UCAVs? We already had access to Reaper-class drones. At least it enabled us to (formally) extend the BrahMos' range.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 23 Sep 2017 12:57

$8 billion for 100 drones , that is like $80 million per drone , the figures dont look right.

More likely we will opt for small number 10-15 and use it for few years before we plan to order more or likely by that time we will have our own drone

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kakarat » 23 Sep 2017 13:16

ramana wrote:So how to confirm if Hawk 135 does have thise hard points or not?


Does this pic answer your Question

Image

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Viv S » 23 Sep 2017 13:45

Austin wrote:$8 billion for 100 drones , that is like $80 million per drone , the figures dont look right.

Sounds about right to me. Flyaway cost will probably be around half that, maybe less if munitions are included.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby deejay » 23 Sep 2017 14:07

Austin wrote:$8 billion for 100 drones , that is like $80 million per drone , the figures dont look right.

More likely we will opt for small number 10-15 and use it for few years before we plan to order more or likely by that time we will have our own drone


Payload Sir, Payload. Most of the cost is of payloads and ground systems even if the deal does cater to support, training etc.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 23 Sep 2017 14:12

We dont know the break up cost , If this includes TOT and lic manuf in India then it is worth investing instead of outright purchase

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Vips » 23 Sep 2017 17:28

The sale of advanced systems and force multipliers by US (and TOT) will largely depend on quid pro quo by India. If not F16 for IAF then at least F18 will be purchased for the Indian Navy.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 23 Sep 2017 17:30

Austin wrote:$8 billion for 100 drones , that is like $80 million per drone , the figures dont look right.

More likely we will opt for small number 10-15 and use it for few years before we plan to order more or likely by that time we will have our own drone


Unless you have the BOM you cannot simply take the contract amount and divide it by the unit and obtain even a guesstimate of the cost of just the weapons system minus mission systems, Engineering and development, services, and support. Think of what it would take to operate a 100 drones from a logistical perspective, what unique US components would need to be replaced or re-engineered, and then add all of that cost to the basic cost of the aircraft and contractor and US service support (in case it is FMS). I would not be surprised if the cost of the aircraft itself is around $30-$40 million.

There will be quite a few things that will have to go through EMD to support India's needs, and then you will look at weapons package, and long term support. On top of that number you account for price escalation on account of a standard 30-50% offset requirement which means more for General Atomics, than it does for a Boeing since GA does not have the breadth of products like Boeing through which they can absorb the offsets. All this impacts the size of the an international deal. Compared to manned aircrafts, unmanned aircraft pose more challenges if the end user wants higher customization. A replacement SATCOM or LOS Data link needs to be compatible with the way the aircraft is engineered, and this means similar latency and data handling capabilities since the aircraft relies on them very heavily.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Indranil » 23 Sep 2017 19:48


Interesting choice of words. Why would the customer "eye" an order?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_Sharma » 23 Sep 2017 19:50

It seems to use laser to burn up enemy's ground radar 5:40 and destroy surface to air Missiles.


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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 23 Sep 2017 19:53

It does none of that. GA has a proposal to integrate its HELADS solution on the Avenger but there is nothing concrete, as the USAF would like the solution to be independent of the platform, with the SOCOM preferring the AC130 as a platform. It is out into the future capability for the USAF and even later for export.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby vasu raya » 23 Sep 2017 20:21

so the sell point is persistent coverage provided by a swarm of Avengers equipped with HELADS or even a local sourced laser system taking out Nasr rockets in flight

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 23 Sep 2017 20:25

This is a fairly old video, and I don't think any of this is part of an export pitch by GA. HELADS is a US R&D program.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby vasu raya » 23 Sep 2017 20:27

There is no expectation of HELADS being offered etc., since Avengers are in the fray would a DRDO developed laser system can be integrated?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 23 Sep 2017 20:31

You would have to create a solution that works within the space, weight and power of the Avenger internal bay. This is not easy. If given a green light, this is likely a decade worth of work even for US OEMs that have been working on SSLs (COIL not an option for this or practically any airborne solution) for a fairly significant amount of time. GA has done well in this space and the trick is to obviously store energy and recharge between cycles. Integration is obviously a matter of cost and working with he OEM but at a price I guess anything is possible.

Image

Image

More : http://aviationweek.com/technology/gene ... -now-ready

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby vasu raya » 23 Sep 2017 20:41

Ah! thanks, is there a tradeoff between dwell time and laser power needed? and USAF opting for AC130 based system is to get the Coil based one quicker to fielding? than the compact SSLs

Recently there was a test of Apache mounted laser, the specs are similar?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby darshhan » 23 Sep 2017 20:47

Indranil wrote:

Interesting choice of words. Why would the customer "eye" an order?


Good catch Indranil. Narrative formation using the above choice of words. Once narrative is formed 2 billion USD will be charged extra just for the sake of narrative which shows India as the needy party.

By the way what extra mission set will be performed by avenger(over and above that of Reaper/predator combo or even better Rustom)? This is not clear to me.

At the most it is just medium stealthy. It is definitely less stealthy than RQ 170(beast of kandahar) which in turn was detected and brought down by Iranians. So the question is can it even survive in contested airspace like that above Pakistan or China which field air defence systems which are as or even more competitive than that of Iran?

Ofcourse if they are stealthy enough, then we can also use them for our own version of air based BMD.

And if we need samples for our scientists to study then we need hardly half a dozen. 100 nos. is not needed in this case.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 23 Sep 2017 20:50

vasu raya wrote:Ah! thanks, is there a tradeoff between dwell time and laser power needed? and USAF opting for AC130 based system is to get the Coil based one quicker to fielding? than the compact SSLs

Recently there was a test of Apache mounted laser, the specs are similar?


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5098&p=2216979#p2216979

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby darshhan » 23 Sep 2017 20:54

Manish_Sharma wrote:It seems to use laser to burn up enemy's ground radar 5:40 and destroy surface to air Missiles.



Come on Manish bhai. US will offer us laser systems that it is yet to induct itself. Even VivS is not claiming this.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 23 Sep 2017 21:28

IAF's Jaguar aircraft take off during night operation drill
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 805981.cms


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