Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50412
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 05 Apr 2018 21:33

Thanks. Great job.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6879
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Indranil » 05 Apr 2018 21:34

Even if the selection and negotiations completed by 2020. Can't see how these aircraft can start to arrive before 2023! If GRipen is chosen, it will be after 2025. Will this be quick?

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50412
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 05 Apr 2018 22:41

It could be the brass asserting themselves.

Last time they did ended p completing the Tejas 83 orders.
Frankly there is no money if you see the big picture.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50412
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 05 Apr 2018 22:52

Any updates on Gagan Shakti?

I know the Pakis had trapped the IAF officer into revealing information.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21920
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 05 Apr 2018 23:07

Yes thats right there is no money for 100 fighter aircraft , IAF needs to get realistic and stop being cry baby and adopt the fighter they built and indiginous ones in more numbers rather then perpetually complain and create pretext to import in determent to indigenous development.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5714
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 05 Apr 2018 23:40

Austin, this is not the IAF's fault. This is the MoD's fault. Easy to call the IAF cry-babies, when the MoD must take the blame. But unfortunately, it is the IAF that gets a bad name. They are the operator after all, so it is easy to pin the blame on them. This is a perception issue. The MoD screws up, but the services look like clowns as a result. Some past examples;

- IAF wanted 126 M2K-5s in 2001. MoD got their hands on it and made it multi-vendor situation.
- IAF participated in MMRCA competition. MoD got their hands on the negotiations and went no where.
- IAF launched SEF competition and MoD got their hands on it and ruined it.

But who takes the blame for this? The Indian Air Force. The press reports that the IAF cannot decide and people buy that story, hook-line-and-sinker. But the Babu(s) who ruined it, get guaranteed pension and lifelong job security. Their names never come up in the media.

There is also the matter of face-saving here by the Govt. You just cannot cancel a tender for 100+ fighters out of the blue. The Amreekis have to know that game is being played fair. So go through the entire process again, do the down select and start negotiations.

The problem is there is no money for 100+ fighters. If 36 Rafales cost nearly $10 billion, how much do you think 100 F-16s, F-18s, Typhoons, Rafales or Gripen Es will cost? I have left the MiG-35 out of the equation, because the IAF does not want it. They do not want the F-16 or F-18 either, but geopolitics have to be played. There is not just the plane that is being purchased (argument put forth by "make-do" F-18 enthusiasts), there is the factory that needs to be set up, base infrastructure, weapons that the plane needs, spares, tools, PBL, etc, etc, etc. This deal will never get signed. What will likely happen is reality will hit, when negotiations begin and that will be the end of that. Crash and burn.

In the meanwhile, the 36 Rafales will come. The rank and file in the IAF will get bowled over by the capabilities of the plane. They will swear by her and then they will make the case for 36 - 44 more of the same type. And that will be the end of the story.

There is also a numbers issue at stake. You cannot fit 100 foreign fighters (5 squadrons) + 324 Tejas (18 squadrons) + 272 Su-30MKIs (15 squadrons) + 36 Rafales (two squadrons) in a 42 strength combat squadron ORBAT by 2032. Unless you practise Lahori Mathematics, that will not work. I know that comes up to only 35 squadrons (Su-30MKI, Tejas and Rafales), but there is PAK-FA at play. Pathetic as it may be (NOW), she will be coming into the IAF. So like it or not, PAK-FA is coming. You add four squadrons of PAK-FA and you are up to 39 squadrons already. Then there is AMCA. Where are we going to fit 100 fighters (5 squadrons) in this? There is room for 2 - 3 more squadrons of a foreign type and that type is Rafale onlee.

And before we even get to a 55 - 60 strength combat squadron ORBAT, let the IAF reach 42 squadrons first. Let the MoD do that first for the IAF and then we can talk of 55 - 60 squadrons.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21920
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 05 Apr 2018 23:51

What did IAF do till date to build an "Indian" AF , It reluctantly ageed to buy Tejas at one time it called 3 legged cheetha ....MOD screwed up but so did IAF , for as long as IAF get its fighters and bombs it does not bother in building industrial base.

What did IAF do to stream line its fighter types , logistics and weapon system in past 20 years lets forget the last 50

Did IAF fund from its own CAPEX any single program till date ? Atleast the Navy did for Naval Tejas with its own budget by now IAF would have have many dozens project funded by them and in service.

Now it wants 100 fighter urgently, some one should ask them how many types will they operate and what will the zoo look like 36 of one type and 100 of other and something else and more ?

Why cant they simply build more MKI and Tejas in proponate numbers and forget about the 100 urgent fighter they need , What will those fighter do that neither Tejas or MKI cant and by what % margin......is it worth building a new logistics line for these 100 types unless they buy these 100 from what they already operate......that brings the same question why cant they add more mki and tejas

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5714
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 06 Apr 2018 02:49

Austin wrote:What did IAF do till date to build an "Indian" AF , It reluctantly ageed to buy Tejas at one time it called 3 legged cheetha ....MOD screwed up but so did IAF , for as long as IAF get its fighters and bombs it does not bother in building industrial base.

From where do you the think the IAF got that mindset? It is not the IAF's job to build an industrial base. That is the GOI's job. What have they done? Where was the GOI these past 70+ years? The IAF's job is to defend the airspace and take the fight to the enemy. Job creation, industrial base, generating employment, screwdrivergiri, HAL's profitability, Adani or Tata's profit & loss statements, etc is not the responsibility of the IAF or the Air Chief.

What happened to the GOI during the Marut episode? What happened to the GOI during the Tejas development? Kaveri development? Nice to give speech (not you) about India becoming global power, super power, regional power and what not. But will onlee spend the bare minimum on the services, citing budgetary constraints. I will spend like a bhikhari (beggar), but I want to live in Taj Mahal. I am not giving a clean chit to the IAF, but blame for the lack of fighter squadrons rests with the GOI (from both political parties) and the Babus at the MoD. They have the power to resolve this issue, but they will not. They do not care. Not their loved one in the cockpit. So why should they care?

Send a few Babus at the MoD for a flight in a MiG-21UM and come in for a super fast landing. Files will then move even faster.

The institution that once called the Tejas a three legged cheetah, has now nothing but praises for her. Is the MoD optimizing resources to improve production times on the two Tejas lines? Mk1A specs are still being finalized. So why is the MoD not buying Mk1s in the interim? The Mk1 can be converted into the Mk1A, as per HAL Chief. But what is being done instead? The MoD is asking the IAF to finalize their requirements for 100 fighters. Where is the logic in this madness?

To quote Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major (Retd.), when speaking about Tejas in the previous decade, "Give us a first-rate, fourth generation fighter." Today, that has certainly been accomplished. But where is the MoD? Where are the funds? They are willing to entertain the idea of spending upwards of $20 Billion USD on 100 foreign fighters (and give wet dreams to BRF's import lobby), but there are issues of budgetary constraints when it comes to spend Rs 1350 crore ($200 Million USD) on a Tejas line? Like Really?

Austin wrote:What did IAF do to stream line its fighter types , logistics and weapon system in past 20 years lets forget the last 50

Saar, come on. You know better than the above, to make that statement. If you want to start looking at historical purchases, there were various geopolitical scenarios at play from the first jet fighter (the Dassault Ouragan) the IAF acquired, to the latest jet fighter (the Dassault Rafale) and everything in between. And the GOI was present (and was the most important player...they paid for them!) in each one of those acquisitions. On many a occasions when the IAF wanted to standardize on a few types, it was the GOI (and the Babu) that threw the spanner in the works.

- Acquiring additional M2Ks got canned twice (first in the 80s with the MiG-29 offer and second in 2001 with the MMRCA contest).
- Tanker contests have been concluded two times already (with the A330 platform), only to have the MoD re-issue the tender.
- Acquiring the F-125 engine for the Jaguar has been going on for 10+ years now. Where is the MoD?

Austin wrote:Did IAF fund from its own CAPEX any single program till date? Atleast the Navy did for Naval Tejas with its own budget by now IAF would have have many dozens project funded by them and in service.

And where is the Naval Tejas, Austin? The Navy does not even want the bird. They do not even want the Mk2. Although (I am biased), I feel they will have a change of heart when the Mk2 for the IAF rolls out.

Austin wrote:Now it wants 100 fighter urgently, some one should ask them how many types will they operate and what will the zoo look like 36 of one type and 100 of other and something else and more ?

100 fighters are not coming anytime in the near future. Assuming a contract is signed by 2020 (and that is a big IF), it will be 2023/2024 by the time the first planes rolls off the production line. Even if a first batch is bought directly from OEM, it will still take three years at minimum to deliver. This deal will NEVER address the squadron shortage in the IAF.

Austin wrote:Why cant they simply build more MKI and Tejas in proponate numbers and forget about the 100 urgent fighter they need , What will those fighter do that neither Tejas or MKI cant and by what % margin......is it worth building a new logistics line for these 100 types unless they buy these 100 from what they already operate......that brings the same question why cant they add more mki and tejas

Who cannot build more MKIs and Tejas, Austin? Answer the WHO, Austin! The IAF does not build fighters. The IAF operates fighters. The GOI and MoD releases the funds for the IAF to acquire and operate fighters. Where is the money for more MKIs and Tejas? If you gave the IAF the option right now, for two more squadrons of Rambhas + two more squadrons of Rafales versus waiting for another decade to build up the squadron strength....which one do you think the IAF would pick?

This pathetic situation is not the IAF's doing. This is the Babus. Playing Gilli Danda with national security.

SiddharthS
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 62
Joined: 04 Sep 2017 15:45

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby SiddharthS » 06 Apr 2018 07:10

If services could they would ask for the moon, it's the politicians job to knock few heads and keep everyone in line with the Indigenisation policy. Just Proclaim that from here on India will Only acquire indigenous weapons and there will be no two ways about it, once the politicians lays out the blueprint for idigenisation babus and services have no other option but to follow it. This is where we lack as Admiral Prakash said "Indian politicians have abdicated their responsibility vis-a-vis national security. They're too busy jumping from one election to another. political survival is their biggest concern." At least national security is on the agenda because of its political nature and the political brownie points that every party in the office wants to claim, but the national power is not even on the agenda. No wonder we're still obsessed with the minnow.

There is no point in blaming the babus or services they will do as they are told. it's the job of the politician to carve out the vision and implement the policies to buttress that vision.

Can the air force the size of the IAF afford to import aircrafts? no, the only solution is, was and will be indigenisation through iterative developmental model.

Navys decision to drop the NLCA was also disheartening. The money that will be spent on importing aircrafts could have been used for iteratively developing NLCA MK-1 and MK-2, and by the time we got to MK-3 we would have had a very capable carrier fighter.

pravula
BRFite
Posts: 221
Joined: 07 Aug 2009 05:01

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby pravula » 06 Apr 2018 07:30

Navy IIRC is still funding NLCA MK-2 out of their own pocket.

Rampy
BRFite
Posts: 264
Joined: 25 Mar 2003 12:31
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rampy » 06 Apr 2018 18:01


kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2649
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby kit » 06 Apr 2018 18:08

Rakesh wrote:
This pathetic situation is not the IAF's doing. This is the Babus. Playing Gilli Danda with national security.


The babu's curriculum would ? include geopolitics / strategies et all or is it only for the foreign service? Maybe they need BRF membership as well :mrgreen:

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5714
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 07 Apr 2018 00:56

I should have had this discussion in the MRCA thread. Sorry. Going forward, all discussions on this topic, in that thread.

arun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9999
Joined: 28 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby arun » 07 Apr 2018 12:58

---- del ----
Last edited by Rakesh on 07 Apr 2018 19:00, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Post moved to MMRCA thread

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19592
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 07 Apr 2018 15:55

--- del ---
Last edited by Rakesh on 07 Apr 2018 19:01, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Post moved to MMRCA thread

nam
BRFite
Posts: 1353
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nam » 07 Apr 2018 16:45

--- del ---
Last edited by Rakesh on 07 Apr 2018 19:02, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Post moved to MMRCA thread

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50412
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 07 Apr 2018 20:33

ramana wrote:Any updates on Gagan Shakti?

I know the Pakis had trapped the IAF officer into revealing information.



https://twitter.com/Chopsyturvey/status ... 00160?s=19

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50412
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 07 Apr 2018 21:28

I wish AVM Dev Ganesh (R) comments on Gagan Shakti.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 63151
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 07 Apr 2018 21:49

---- del ----
Last edited by Rakesh on 08 Apr 2018 18:50, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Post Moved to MMRCA Thread

Cosmo_R
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3407
Joined: 24 Apr 2010 01:24

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cosmo_R » 08 Apr 2018 04:47

----del----
Last edited by Rakesh on 08 Apr 2018 18:51, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Post Moved to MMRCA Thread

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19592
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 10 Apr 2018 14:25

https://bharatkarnad.com/2018/03/31/fgf ... reckoning/
quote]FGFA back in the reckoning?
Posted on March 31, 2018 by Bharat Karnad

Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman will be visiting Russia for 5-6 days starting April 3. Talk is swirling about the minister reviving the now up-now down FGFA (fifth generation fighter aircraft) programme with a formal contract to proceed with essentially buying the Sukhoi-57 with some small modifications. This in any case is what Moscow hopes will happen. It is also a means of mending relations with Putin’s Russia because, let’s be clear and realistic, without Russian assistance and continued friendship India’s strategic prospects are bleak.

This comes after the fiasco of the Rafale deal where the CCS approval happened in early 2018, a good three years after Prime Minister Narendra Modi stunned everyone including the French by acting as Santa Claus bearing gifts for the struggling Dassault company and the French combat aviation sector with his announcement for the buy of 36 Rafales off the shelf. This was a god-sent deal because Paris had until then failed to rack up any sales for this aircraft. After the recent state visit by Emannuell Macron Dassault is more confident than ever that the contract for 36 planes will be stretched to an eventual offtake of three times as many Rafales but at a unit price higher than Rs 670 crore!! This is a bonanza France will treasure. What the Modi regime has got in return is airy-fairy stuff — promises of high-technology, solar alliance, etc. the sort of thing Delhi has always been a sucker for. Bu the high cost factor means India cannot fool around with the kind of idiotic deal for the museum piece — F-16, let alone as warm up, as some screwy commentators have been suggesting, for the still bigger lemon in the US fleet, the F-35, that other than its information fusion-situational awareness technology is an absolute disaster because all it relies on is BVR, which is small consolation indeed.

IAF brass has mightily resisted the Russian FGFA for reasons that are jejune at best — with complaints they invariably manufacture any time a Russian aircraft hoves into sight — insufficient stealth, under-powered, and the perennial — spares and servicing problems, complaints that are based on flying a prototype. But faced for reasons of economics with buying a Russian aircraft to get the numbers up, they have thrown a curve ball, and asked for the Su-35 as interim solution to the indigenous Indian FGFA project. And to further mess up things and, perhaps, also to perhaps try and collaterally kill off the Tejas LCA. This didn’t happen because, mercifully, this wonderful Indian designed fighting machine has finally gained traction both within the air force — with Mirage 2000 sqdn pilots who flew it reporting that it handles better than the French item and predecessor to the Rafale that they fly — and with the “nationalist” BJP government, which would have had egg on its face and lots worse had they followed the Vayu Bhavan advice and restricted its production. If there’s Tejas, where’s the need for any foreign single-engine aircraft? The Sukhoi stable has no such plane to sell.

But why the Su-35 when the far more advanced Su-57 is available at around the same price of $100 million per aircraft? And compare this cost with that of each Rafale of Rs 670 crores that India is forking out.

Sitharaman will sign for the S-400 anti-aircraft system — which is NOT for ballistic missile defence, but nevertheless affords comfort to some in the govt as part of the tiered missile defence complex around the Delhi National Capital Region, along with the homegrown Prithvi BMD. But it is FGFA that, one hopes, she’ll finally and irrevocably plonk for and end for once and for all this open-ended saga of a future structure of IAF. Of course, for the money, Sitharaman should make sure of two things: that (1) Indian aircraft designers along with Russian-speaking IAF fliers are from the word go seconded to the Sukhoi design bureau to absorb the latest design techniques and technologies for inputting into the AMCA (advanced medium combat aircraft) project , and (2) that a full-scale spares production is set up in the Indian private sector so the usual snafus regarding nonavailability of spares, which has poisoned the attitude of many IAF pilots to Russian hardware, is obviated.

With FGFA in the IAF stable, the future Indian air orbat firms up as follows: Tejas Mk1A-Mk-2, AMCA, FGFA, with the Su-30MKI upgraded to “super Sukhoi” configuration acting as the bridge between the present and future force. The pivot for the success of such a force depends centrally on the Tejas produced in large numbers, something HAL can manifestly not manage. Whence the need that I have long urged for the transfer of Tejas technology in toto by DRDO/ADA to Indian private sector companies — Tata, Mahindra and Reliance to also wean these firms away from the imported aircraft syndrome, with the incentive provided them to export a part of their production from get-go.[/quote]

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3900
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 11 Apr 2018 00:00

What a rubbish article by Bharat Karnad. I'm afraid, the content is simply of very very poor quality and filled with bile and vitriol.

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1239
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Thakur_B » 11 Apr 2018 08:45

All this hoopla around the death of FGFA reeks of lifafa journalism. That being said, there appear to be some serious issues in the deal yet to be worked out.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 63151
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 11 Apr 2018 12:21

boils down to same issue - how much do we gain from what is a very large deal? all 3 will deliver a good fighting a/c platform, but IS THAT ENOUGH given our P3 plans and hopes ? sections of IAF feel so long as they can get the best imported stuff in limited nos they are ok, but IAF has yet to fight a prolonged war against a peer power, face the entire weight of 75% of PLAAF+PLANAF or face a prolonged tech denial sanctions unlike our atomic/missile community. and things are getting increasingly unaffordable like $1000 is the norm for a high end android or iphone these days .

JSF - we get nothing in technology, maybe get to assemble a few if order is huge enough. a complex and lavish parts system needed stretching back to 100s of LM suppliers.

FGFA - same as above, just change the name of country and increase the std deviation in the parts supply. we might be able to fit Uttam radar and some avionics at best. first let us get traction on FOC of Uttam and its fitment into SU30MKU rather than Irbis-E. Rus will reject it tooth and nail.

AMCA - for better for worse we can fit whatever we want. even a raytheon/elta aesa if we want. plus the complete design and test cycle in india giving megatons of valuable knowledge and training. all structural parts and avionics mostly in india benefitting 100s of cos and 1000s of trained people.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19592
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 11 Apr 2018 12:53

AMCA-Engine? From where? That's what has plagued Indian aircraft ,total lack of engine tech or willingnesss to use the stick with the useless GTRE that after 3 decades hasn't even come out with a single working Kaveri engine.That's taxpayer's money,,your's and mine.I feel a sense of rage everytime I have to send a cq. with my IT returns as the atrocious manner in which the GOI (all parties) simply squanders our hard-earned money,acquired through the blood and sweat of our efforts,is used like a never-ending roll of toilet paper.As a popular note being circulated on SM says,we the miniscule % of taxpayers of India should demand "minority status"!

But returning to the point in Q,if numbers are low,why doesn't the MOD/DM simply order more numbers of those aircraft ins ervice?! That's the easiest,fastest and most cost-effective manner in which the shortage can be met,NOT through years of negotiating for another firang fighter which does ZERO for the much touted slogan of our beloved PM,Modiji ,making a mockery of the mantra of "make/made in India"!
As BK says in his last lines,simply hand over our desi TOT for the LCA,etc. to local industry majors and get them to produce Tejas,Arjuns,arty,etc. in the required numbers! If we don't,it will prove that firang vested interests control India's security apparatus and we are no longer independent but have allowed the equiv. of the East India Co. to return.
Last edited by Philip on 11 Apr 2018 13:11, edited 1 time in total.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 63151
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 11 Apr 2018 13:08

we if can use GE engine for tejas, then either that or kaveri-snecma or RD33-I-EDE :D or M88-3 which is ideally sized.

the su30 production has ceased in russia, i think they have moved to su35.
we could at best produce more jaguars like we did 39 a decade ago....but its a obsolete airframe.
there is nothing else that is in production not even the hawk probably.

Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12861
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Lalmohan » 11 Apr 2018 13:21

my view is that even if an airframe is obsolete, but it still has useful serviceable life, then it could be retasked for other missions in other sectors. a typical example may be maritime recon/strike for the jaguars - with the radar and nav/attack mods, etc. (even if carried in pods) they can be relocated to the south and provide valuable service against 'lower threats' for some time to come

not all our threats are state of the art

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19592
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 11 Apr 2018 13:22

New engines are being fielded for the SU-35/FGFAs. The SS version ,BMos capable,with LR AAMs is the way to go for the MKI line at Nasik,after the last ordered MKI is delivered.Upgrading and manufacturing approx. 200 aircraft to this std. will keep it ticking for at least 5-10 years. If and when the FGFA arrives,it can take over from that line or be built in parallel like MBTs at Avadi.

Jags equipped with PGMs are good "bomb trucks".Upgraded Jags will be quite potent in delivering ordnance on the battlefield (FEBA),as well as deeper striking at the enemy's bases and staging areas,disrupting LOCs,etc. Jags with armoured cockpits and critical zones,will be excellent CA/GS birds like the SU-25s and A-10s. Armed Hawks could also be built for the same purpose. That too both acquired at low cost. I'm sure that more composites can be used for the Jags to increase its stealthiness.Jags and LCAs-which need to be built in large qtys. fast, could make up the light component of the IAF's order of battle.These numbers are invaluable to supporting the IA on the battlefield as well as point/local defence ,allowing the med. and heavy hitters to bear the brunt of the responsibility of both strike and air dominance.

sudeepj
BRFite
Posts: 1227
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 11:25

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby sudeepj » 11 Apr 2018 21:02

---- del ----
Last edited by Rakesh on 11 Apr 2018 22:15, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Post moved to MRCA thread

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 63151
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 11 Apr 2018 21:56

--- del ---
Last edited by Rakesh on 11 Apr 2018 22:16, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Post moved to MRCA thread

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5714
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 11 Apr 2018 22:14

Guys, please in the MRCA thread. Not in here. I will move your posts in there.

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3502
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby JayS » 11 Apr 2018 22:15

Singha wrote:
I want my tax money to be spent on kaveri even if it fails than feed some corrupt dalals here and foreign oem


Very well said. +108

Avtar Singh
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 84
Joined: 22 Jan 2017 02:07

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Avtar Singh » 12 Apr 2018 01:28

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Avtar Singh wrote:Mig21s crashed so much, BECAUSE THEY ARE BLOODY DIFFICULT TO HANDLE/FLY

and I believe the IAF would send there pilots to Mig21 from intermediate jet training?
that is a tall order!! hard enough to handle such an aircraft out of advanced jet training

couple the difficulties of flying such a difficult machine with an antiquated 1950s cockpit

the starfighter was not known as a "widow maker" without reason
I imagine the mig21 is not too wide of that mark


Pls don’t post unaldertated nonsense. You should post in the newbie corner first and then when you reach a standard you can post on other threads. The newbie thread is there for a reason - to train trainees and bring them up to a standard.



Actually, dont let my newbie status fool you. I have quite a lot of experience in these matters,
if we ever meet I can elucidate further.

jaysimha
BRFite
Posts: 645
Joined: 20 Dec 2017 14:30

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby jaysimha » 12 Apr 2018 10:20

Exercise Gaganshakti-2018: Forward Surgical Centre

During the Exercise GaganShakti-18, the IAF has formalised the concept of a Forward Surgical Centre (FSC).A Forward Surgical Centre is set up at a remote forward location in the IAF with the aim of enhancing the medical capabilities at a forward base which is located away from a service hospital. The establishment of FSC at a forward base enables immediate life and limb saving surgery and stabilization of the patient. Evacuation rear-ward to a higher surgical centre could then be undertaken at an opportune time during operations.



Air Force Station Naliya is the first AF Station where an FSC has been operationalised, using existing men and material of the IAF. Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa PVSM AVSM YSM VM ADC Chief of the Air Staff visited the FSC at Naliya and he was impressed with the set up. It has a dedicated surgical team, equipped to undertake 6-8 surgeries a day. FSCs are also being established at Phalodi and Sirsa.



The availability of FSCs at remote forward AF bases would be a major boost to the morale of not only the air warriors in the IAF, but also for soldiers in the Army who face the brunt of enemy forces.

********

AB/MKR


(Release ID :178610)

jaysimha
BRFite
Posts: 645
Joined: 20 Dec 2017 14:30

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby jaysimha » 12 Apr 2018 10:32

http://www.indianairforce.nic.in/sites/default/files/RFI_Fighter_Aircraft.pdf
REQUEST FOR INFORMATION FOR PROCUREMENT OF
FIGHTER AIRCRAFT FOR THE INDIAN AIR FORCE
1. The Ministry of Defence, Government of India, intends to procure Fighter Aircraft
for the Indian Air Force (IAF) which is to be Made in India. The proposal is to procure
approximately 110 fighter aircraft (about 75% single seat and rest twin seat aircraft).
The procurement should have a maximum of 15% aircraft in flyaway state and the
remaining 85% aircraft will have to be made in India by a Strategic Partner/ Indian
Production Agency (SP/ IPA).

This Request for Information (RFI) consists of three parts as indicated below: -
(a) Part I. This part of the RFI incorporates the intended use, technical
characteristics and features that should be met by the aircraft. .
(b) Part II. This part of the RFI incorporates ToT requirements, associated
equipment and standard contract terms.
(c) Part III. This part of the RFI states the methodology of seeking response
of the vendors.

The response to the RFI should be clearly labelled as
RFI RESPONSE - FIGHTER AIRCRAFT. The vendors are required to dispatch
two hard copies and one soft copy of the RFI to the following address:-
Principal Director,
Dte of ASR, Room No 442
Air HQ (VB), Rafi Marg
New Delhi-110011
Fax No: 00-91-11-23011836
Tel No: 00-91-11-23014917
Email: jaguar442@mail.gov.in

Peregrine
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5840
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Peregrine » 12 Apr 2018 19:43

Boeing joins hands with HAL, Mahindra for 'Make in India' Super Hornet fighter jets

THIRUVEDANTHAI: Eyeing the mega Indian Air Force (IAF) contract for 110 fighter jets, Boeing on Thursday announced a partnership with PSU Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and Mahindra Defence Systems (MDS) for manufacturing the F/A-18 Super Hornet fighter jets in India.

The US aerospace major said the partnership will also work for joint development of future technologies in India, saying it will transform India's aerospace and defence ecosystem.

The Super Hornet 'Make in India' proposal is to build an entirely new and state-of-the-art production facility that can be utilised for other programmes like India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) programme, the company said in a statement.

"Boeing is excited to team up with India's only company that manufactures combat fighters, HAL, and India's only company that manufactures small commercial airplanes, Mahindra.

"This partnership brings the best of Indian public and private enterprises together in partnership with the world's largest aerospace company, Boeing, to accelerate a contemporary 21st century ecosystem for aerospace & defence manufacturing in India," said Pratyush Kumar, the president of Boeing India.

The announcement was made on the second day of the Defence Expo here.

Boeing is among the leading military aircraft producers like Lockheed Martin, Saab, Dassault and Russian Aircraft Corporation MiG that are likely to vie for the deal to supply 110 fighter jets to the IAF in one of the biggest such procurement in recent years globally which could be worth over $15 billion.

An RFI (Request for Information) or initial tender for the mega deal was issued by the IAF on April 6 with officials saying that the procurement would be in sync with the government's 'Make in India' initiative in the defence sector.

Aircraft manufacturers have to send their proposals by July 6. Officials had said the jets will be produced jointly by a foreign aircraft maker along with an Indian company under the recently-launched strategic partnership model which aims to bring in high-end defence technology to India.

Noting that HAL has always been at the forefront of aerospace development in India, its chairman T Suvarna Raju said the partnership will create an opportunity to strengthen indigenous platforms in India thereby contributing to the Make-in-India activities.

According to the company, the programs under progress at HAL include production of SU-30 MKI, Hawk-AJT, Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Dhruv-ALH and Cheetah/Chetak helicopters

Boeing said the partnership will for production of an affordable, combat-proven fighter platform for India, while adding it will result growth momentum to the Indian aerospace ecosystem with manufacturing, skill development, innovation and engineering and job creation.

As the most advanced and least expensive aircraft per flight hour of its kind, the F/A-18 Super Hornet will deliver on India's need for a carrier and land based multi-role fighter, the company said, it said.

"The Super Hornet does not only have a low acquisition cost, but it costs less per flight hour to operate than any other tactical aircraft in US forces inventory. And with a plan for constant innovation, the F/A-18 Super Hornet will outpace threats, bolster defence capabilities and make India stronger for decades to come," it said.

The F/A-18 Super Hornet has a long life ahead, with the US Navy making significant investments in the latest evolution, the Block III, Boeing noted.

Kumar said that partnership with HAL and Mahindra will enable Boeing India to optimise the full potential of the country's public and private sector to deliver next-generation F/A-18 fighter capabilities.

Future production with Indian partners will involve maximising indigenous content and producing the F/A-18 in India for its armed forces to create a 21st century aerospace ecosystem, the statement from Boeing said

The plan addresses the infrastructure, personnel training, and operational tools and techniques required to produce a next gen fighter aircraft right here in India. In addition, Boeing will work closely with India industry to ensure they have the very latest technologies, applying lessons learned from the current Super Hornet production line, it said

Boeing is the world's largest aerospace company and leading manufacturer of commercial jetliners, defence, space and security systems, and service provider of aftermarket support.

"We are excited about the opportunities that this partnership with Boeing and HAL will provide for us to contribute further to 'Make in India' for defence," said S P Shukla, Group President, Aerospace & Defence, Mahindra Group, and Chairman, Mahindra Defence Systems.

Cheers Image

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50412
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 12 Apr 2018 22:35

jaysimha wrote:http://www.indianairforce.nic.in/sites/default/files/RFI_Fighter_Aircraft.pdf
REQUEST FOR INFORMATION FOR PROCUREMENT OF
FIGHTER AIRCRAFT FOR THE INDIAN AIR FORCE
1. The Ministry of Defence, Government of India, intends to procure Fighter Aircraft
for the Indian Air Force (IAF) which is to be Made in India. The proposal is to procure
approximately 110 fighter aircraft (about 75% single seat and rest twin seat aircraft).
The procurement should have a maximum of 15% aircraft in flyaway state and the
remaining 85% aircraft will have to be made in India by a Strategic Partner/ Indian
Production Agency (SP/ IPA).

This Request for Information (RFI) consists of three parts as indicated below: -
(a) Part I. This part of the RFI incorporates the intended use, technical
characteristics and features that should be met by the aircraft. .
(b) Part II. This part of the RFI incorporates ToT requirements, associated
equipment and standard contract terms.
(c) Part III. This part of the RFI states the methodology of seeking response
of the vendors.

The response to the RFI should be clearly labelled as
RFI RESPONSE - FIGHTER AIRCRAFT. The vendors are required to dispatch
two hard copies and one soft copy of the RFI to the following address:-
Principal Director,
Dte of ASR, Room No 442
Air HQ (VB), Rafi Marg
New Delhi-110011
Fax No: 00-91-11-23011836
Tel No: 00-91-11-23014917
Email: jaguar442@mail.gov.in




How does the underlined part work.

Same aircraft in single and twin engine mode?

What is going on here?

And who has 15% of the order waiting in flyaway condition?

ArjunPandit
BRFite
Posts: 1290
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 12 Apr 2018 23:29

is it twin seat or engine? It says seat

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5714
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 12 Apr 2018 23:35

ramana wrote:How does the underlined part work.

Same aircraft in single and twin engine mode?

What is going on here?

And who has 15% of the order waiting in flyaway condition?

The RFI says twin seat and single seat. Number of engines does not matter. It could be for example Gripen E (single engine) or Rafale (twin engine). But whatever platform is chosen, a certain number of them will have to be twin seaters and a certain number single seaters. Just as in the case of the 36 Rafales that will be delivered to the IAF, 8 of them are twin seaters and 28 of them are single seaters.

With regards to the 15%, it is not worded correctly. 15% of 110 aircraft (around 16 aircraft or close to a squadron's worth of 18 birds) have to be delivered in fly-away condition, after the deal is signed. So they come directly from the OEM. Industry standard is three years. The remaining 85% have to be built in India.

IF a deal is signed in 2020, the first batch will arrive by 2023. Within that time frame (2020 - 2023), a factory will also be built and in an ideal world, will be license producing the remaining 94 aircraft starting from around 2023 or later.

That is the plan, for NOW :)

By tying up with HAL and Mahindra, Boeing has landed a good victory. With the entire Rafale-Ambani cloud over the Govt, adopting HAL is a safe bet. Congress cannot whine then.

VKumar
BRFite
Posts: 434
Joined: 15 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Mumbai,India

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby VKumar » 13 Apr 2018 00:04

Philip wrote:https://bharatkarnad.com/2018/03/31/fgfa-back-in-the-reckoning/
FGFA back in the reckoning?
Posted on March 31, 2018 by Bharat Karnad


But USD 100 M is same as Rs. 100 cr.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Indranil, Misha and 35 guests