Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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srai
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 03 Jan 2018 07:55

ramana wrote:
Karan M wrote:
Likely KAB series bombs



The price is Rs. 1254 Crores for 240 PGMs and 131 missiles for Rs. 460 crores.
The PGM works out to be Rs 5.23 Crore per PGM. The PGMs are supposed to be cheap.
So most likely these are some sort of missiles as price is 1.5 times the Baraks.

What exactly are these and for which aircraft? SU-30MKIs?

240 ... Brahmos-A?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 03 Jan 2018 11:03

Read in today's TOI, that these are KAB-1500L Laser guided bombs- i.e are these 1500KG Bombs? these could they be Bunker busting bombs for say taking out command Bunkers etc. and the 131 Barak-1's are replacement of shelf live of existing missiles getting too old.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 03 Jan 2018 12:40

Could they be the new KH-38MEs or perhaps even the new KH-50s?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 03 Jan 2018 13:09

no chance. they are what it says, the biggest regular bombs in RuAF use for hard/large targets.
Image

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 03 Jan 2018 13:19

^^^
Are they that expensive? (Rs. 1254 Crores for 240 PGMs)

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 03 Jan 2018 13:29

Yes, like the Mirage LGB in 1999. these 240 will have a target name written on them. But I guess other than Agni series BM's, nothing else in the Armed Forces weaponry will come with 1100 KG warheads.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 03 Jan 2018 13:32

Pics of Kab-1500 recently used in Syria against Under Ground Terrorist Bunker , Kab can penetrate atleast 20 m of reinforced concrete underground bunker

Image
Image
Image

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 03 Jan 2018 13:34

Video of the Bombing by KAB-1500


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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 03 Jan 2018 13:35

Image

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 03 Jan 2018 13:44

Little monster! Remember the size of British Tallboy (6K kg) and Grand Slam (12K kg) bombs in WW2? We need some of those delivered by our transports or future strat. bombers.

Interestingly,German U-boat pens were simply indestructible.Here's one account of an attack using a Tallboy.
Farge, 27 March 1945
20 Lancasters of No. 617 Squadron attacked the Valentin submarine pens,[4] a huge, nearly-ready structure with a concrete roof up to 23 ft (7.2 m) thick. Two Grand Slam bombs hit the pen, failing to penetrate a 14 ft 5 inches (4.5 m) thick roof but causing large holes by exploding within the concrete .[4][23] No aircraft were lost.[16][24]

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby A Deshmukh » 03 Jan 2018 13:56

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-ia ... ly-2572563

A MiG 29 fighter jet of the Indian Air Force crashed on Wednesday at Goa's Dabolim Airport.
The trainee pilot ejected safely after the plane caught fire.
According to news agency ANI, the MiG went off runway while taking off and caught fire.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby VKumar » 03 Jan 2018 14:25

News flash. Rafale Rafael confirms India cancels USD 500 m deal.
Last edited by suryag on 03 Jan 2018 14:35, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Corrected the spelling of Rafael

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 03 Jan 2018 14:43

VKumar wrote:News flash. Rafale Rafael confirms India cancels USD 500 m deal.


VKumar- Not the aircraft deal but the deal for SPIKE seems to have been spiked. This would belong better in Missiles thread.

Jerusalem Post

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 03 Jan 2018 15:01

Philip wrote:Little monster! Remember the size of British Tallboy (6K kg) and Grand Slam (12K kg) bombs in WW2? We need some of those delivered by our transports or future strat. bombers.

Interestingly,German U-boat pens were simply indestructible.Here's one account of an attack using a Tallboy.
Farge, 27 March 1945
20 Lancasters of No. 617 Squadron attacked the Valentin submarine pens,[4] a huge, nearly-ready structure with a concrete roof up to 23 ft (7.2 m) thick. Two Grand Slam bombs hit the pen, failing to penetrate a 14 ft 5 inches (4.5 m) thick roof but causing large holes by exploding within the concrete .[4][23] No aircraft were lost.[16][24]


OT, but if bombed again the Pens could have collapsed after the initial hits weakened the structure.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ashishvikas » 03 Jan 2018 16:03

Information on HAL's production capacity as of now

In Lok Sabha. The below information given by RRM Subhash Bhamre in a written reply to Prof Saugata Roy and Innocent today.
@akananth

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/948497632933986304

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ashthor » 03 Jan 2018 16:05

Image from the above post

Image

Nothing on LCH and what's next for ALH

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 03 Jan 2018 17:03

Quite Frankly, IF HAL was a private entity and had such an order book it would have been shut down for the investment, only a PSU with all its ineffective s it brings can afford to survive with such piecemeal order books, as much as OFB , HAL are at fault, the Commission agents, Politicians, Media, Procurement wings of defense Forces, MOD babus ( entire import lobby) system is responsible for this mess.

Can't imagine Lockheed Martin developing F-35, US Gov took a similair position that prove IOC for metal cutting FOC. Clealrly none of the decesion makers from top politicians to babus is serious about an Indian MIC.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 03 Jan 2018 17:12

Aditya_V wrote:Can't imagine Lockheed Martin developing F-35, US Gov took a similair position that prove IOC for metal cutting FOC. Clealrly none of the decesion makers from top politicians to babus is serious about an Indian MIC.


In the US, the OEM does not develop an operational system. Development is led by a program office with a program executive officer in charge who comes form the USDOD since the DOD owns the development program and controls it. Lockheed and Pratt and Whitney are executing the program as ordered to do by the Joint Program Office which exists because this is a multi-service/nation program. Technically, the JSF is developed by the Joint services in the US via the JPO. JPO controls the program and determines how it is executed.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby A Deshmukh » 03 Jan 2018 17:14

ashthor wrote:Image from the above post
Image

So, HAL has a capacity to produce 12 (Su-30) + 8 (Tejas)
If the Dornier line - 6 pa (after the current 2 are delivered) and Hawk line 16 pa - are converted to Tejas - we can potentially get another ~22 Tejas per annum 8) . Retooling/requipment reqd, but land and labor expansion not needed.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Vips » 03 Jan 2018 19:34

The SU 30 production lines after 2019 will be used for the Super 30 MKI upgrade. The current capacity to produce DO 228 at 6 will be ramped up following HAL push to sell the civilian variant for the UDAN scheme.The Hawk line capacity of 16 plus the Tejas line at 8 and also the proposed increase in its capacity by another 8 would give us 32 Tejas if combined.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 03 Jan 2018 20:56

Austin wrote:Image


Austin, Thanks. Note the front folded fins or canards and the aft fins with slots from extended control surfaces.

DRDO is developing 1000 kg bombs so these are additional to that.
Is this for the Su-30MKIs?

Looks like IAF is serious.

Did they have these before?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 03 Jan 2018 21:06

X-Posting. Some very good details in this report...

Vips wrote:India to Buy Smart Bombs Worth $200 Mln From Russia.

India will soon procure 240 smart bombs worth $200 million from Russia to boost its air power. On Tuesday, Indian defense minister Nirmala Sitharaman cleared the purchase plan of these bombs which will be used to hit specific targets with minimum collateral damage.

"These bombs, which fall under the category of Precision Guided Munitions, are used by Indian Air Force (IAF). This procurement will address the deficiency of Precision Guided Munitions in the IAF arsenal, besides enhancing the offensive capabilities of the IAF," Indian defense ministry said in a statement.

According to an official document, these bombs are effective against ground targets like railway yards/bridges, major installations, bunkers, runways and hardened targets. The bomb can be carried on various in-service aircraft like the Jaguar, MiG and other advanced combat aircraft of the IAF. Such bombs play a very important role in strike missions where aircraft are tasked to destroy ground installations and enemy runways.

At present, the IAF is fully dependent on imports of the lethal bombs from Israel, France, Russia and the United States for its fighters. But the country is also striving to attain self-sufficiency on the munitions front. Last year, the state-owned Defense Research & Development Organization had successfully tested a precision-guided high-speed low drag (HSLD) bomb weighing 500 kg, which is the largest bomb locally developed in the country so far.

"During the carriage trials, the aircraft touched the carriage limits of 0.85 at 150 m altitude and completed 6.5 'g' and full roll maneuvers. The structural integrity of the bomb was found satisfactory after the trials," DRDO said after the trial.

In 2016, OIS Advanced Technology (OIS-AT) teamed up with Sagem of France to establish a manufacturing unit for precision-guided guidance kits to meet domestic requirements.



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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 03 Jan 2018 21:11

This was tabled by Mos for defense Subhas Bhamre in Los Sabha in response to a question

Image

[ via Arihant/Keypubs ]

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 03 Jan 2018 21:17

From above MOD Figures the per unit production cost for each type made by HAL

Su-30MKI Rs 326 crore per MKI
Do-228 ~ Rs 77.85 crore per Do-228
LCA Tejas Rs 135 crore for IOC & Rs 299 crore for FOC per Tejas
ALH Rs 86.78 crore per ALH
Cheetal Rs 20.3 crore per Cheetal


What would be the USD figure for each type ?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 03 Jan 2018 21:27

Austin Use Rs 64 to 1$ as conversion ratio.

Meanwhile Wiki on KABL 1500:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KAB-1500L

And Dr Carlo Kopp on Soviet/Russian Guided bombs:
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-GBU.html

and bonus:
http://www.deagel.com/Defensive-Weapons ... 35003.aspx

Dimensions
Diameter: 0.58 meter (22.8 inch)
Length: 4.28 meter (169 inch)
Width: 0.85 meter
Wingspan: 1.30 meter (51 inch)
Performance
CEP: 7 meter
Max Launch Altitude: 8,000 meter (26,247 foot)
Max Range: 17,000 meter (9.18 nautical mile)
Min Launch Altitude: 1,000 meter
Speed
Max Launch Airspeed: 1,100 kph
Min Launch Airspeed: 550 kph
Weight
Explosive Weight: 440 kilogram (970 pound)
Warhead: 1,120 kilogram (2,469 pound)
Weight: 1,525 kilogram (3,362 pound)

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 03 Jan 2018 21:33

ramana wrote:
Austin wrote:Image


Austin, Thanks. Note the front folded fins or canards and the aft fins with slots from extended control surfaces.

DRDO is developing 1000 kg bombs so these are additional to that.
Is this for the Su-30MKIs?

Looks like IAF is serious.

Did they have these before?


ramana , KAB-1500 series has multiple guided variants with various explosive you can check this from OEM Site I have linked

KAB-1500 http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/518/538/
http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/518/519/

IAF does use KAB-500 series and Shiv has a video of it used in exercise

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYrE2EMzN4Y

Considering these are LGB and GLONASS guided weapon for as long as the pylons can carry the weight it can be used on any type of aircraft and should not be limited to MKI , Such weapons be it Indian Western or Russian would be abstract to type of aircraft they can carry as long as they can interface and have LDP like Lightening which IAF has.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 03 Jan 2018 21:36

we have probably purchased a mix of variants incl the bunker buster model called KAB1500L-Pr-E. it has a super hard case and a sub caliber directional warhead(??) vs a thinner case and a huge warhead for the blast fragmentation model.

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-GBU. ... ocId118525

Description: The KAB-1500LG-Pr-E as part of the KAB-1500L bomb family, also referred to as KAB-1500LG-E, is a 1,500 kg, laser-guided bomb designed to hit small stationary and extremely strong buried targets such as string concrete objects, command posts, ammunition stores and bunkers. This bomb is carried by the Su-24M, Su-34, Su-35 and Mig-35 aircraft. The KAB-1500LG-Pr-E features an impact fuze with three delay modes and a penetrating warhead.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nam » 03 Jan 2018 21:41

LCA IOC around 21 mill USD
FOC around 47 mill. I guess this includes the Derby BVR. Don't know if this includes line setup cost.

Another thing to remember, these cost are for 20 jets. When the numbers go to 200, it should reduce even further.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 03 Jan 2018 21:41

this ugly dog called FAB5000 was used in ww2 to level stuff like railway yards by heavy 4 engine bombers.
useful to have a tool like this , with some guidance fins (radio command link) for certain situations like smashing the top of fortified hills from 10km away and high altitude.
http://histografy.pl/wp-content/uploads ... 24x639.jpg

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 03 Jan 2018 22:01

Austin wrote:From above MOD Figures the per unit production cost for each type made by HAL

Su-30MKI Rs 326 crore per MKI
Do-228 ~ Rs 77.85 crore per Do-228
LCA Tejas Rs 135 crore for IOC & Rs 299 crore for FOC per Tejas
ALH Rs 86.78 crore per ALH
Cheetal Rs 20.3 crore per Cheetal


What would be the USD figure for each type ?

I think we would need to factor inflation as the Su 30 mki earliest order with HAL would have been late 90's and last order a few years ago. So without year wise break up the costs are meaningless

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 03 Jan 2018 23:45

^^ They are talking about average cost of per unit aircraft and helicopter , The earlier made types will be cheaper than what it is made today at HAL but an average cost would be useful to find the unit cost.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 04 Jan 2018 00:08

Austin, I wonder is the DARIN III upgrade has Glonass receiver. I note somewhere they mentioned will equip Jaguars.

Also other than Su30MKIs I don't know which planes can carry this heavy load.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 04 Jan 2018 01:02

I am glad it is KAB bombs like I thought, they are rugged and usually work.

IAF is steadily buying decent stocks of specific munitions.

Once indigenous production starts, I hope the in-bulk purchases begin.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 04 Jan 2018 01:41

Its the aft or tail fuze that ensures it goes off unlike the British designed nose fuzes which are duds.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 04 Jan 2018 06:26

ramana wrote:X-Posting. Some very good details in this report...

Vips wrote:India to Buy Smart Bombs Worth $200 Mln From Russia.

India will soon procure 240 smart bombs worth $200 million from Russia to boost its air power. On Tuesday, Indian defense minister Nirmala Sitharaman cleared the purchase plan of these bombs which will be used to hit specific targets with minimum collateral damage.

...


That comes out to be around $833,000 per PGM. Is that accurate? Might include other integration/accessories costs as well.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby dkhare » 04 Jan 2018 22:43

Need to wait for official confirmation but here is a tweet:
Indian Air Force to upgrade Jaguar with new @Honeywell_Aero F-125N engine. The @IAF_MCC will re-engine around 100 of its Jaguar fighter aircraft deployed in Jamnagar, Gorakhpur and Ambala.

https://twitter.com/scramble_nl/status/948674930828304384

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 04 Jan 2018 23:27

srai, Yes it works out quite high but look at it this way, KABL puts most of PAF hangers at risk. It will be one PGM one hanger. its not a puny explosive carrier.

dkhare, Yes its good news that govt has taken to re-engine the Jags.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 05 Jan 2018 00:38

I suspect it is for decapitation strike on C3I.

SAAW warheads also indicate significant capability!
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-fyp-VJf4s1g/ ... arhead.JPG

Hangers go bye-bye! I doubt PAF has the budget to go hangar building with tons of steel on top.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 05 Jan 2018 04:05

Ok, you dastardly curious ever questioning lot. I finally can confirm the IAF did in fact get more R-77s relatively recently. A parliamentary report from 2012 notes contract for RVV missiles for Rs 2800 crore. Considering each missile at a million dollars, thats still 560 odd rounds. Clearly, this batch is not the one flagged by CAG as defective, those were procured from 1999-2002.

So yes, India does have some newer R-77 stocks till Astra comes online, probably one of these items was shown on the Su-30 at the recent AF day.
Missile life is 8 years before refurbishment.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_44d3OT-xI3U/S ... R-77-3.jpg

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 05 Jan 2018 04:40

Thanks for digging that up Karan. Will make me sleep better knowing our MKI's aren't BVR nude. :oops:


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