Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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srai
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 05 Jan 2018 04:40

^^^
Can we be sure those R-77 orders in 2012 were for the IAF? I thought those were IN orders for its MiG-29K?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 05 Jan 2018 04:42

Definitely for the AF not Navy.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 05 Jan 2018 04:43

Was there a separate IN order then? Can't seem to remember another order for R-77s.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 05 Jan 2018 05:03

IN orders were separate. IAF has displayed R-77s in recent times AF day, so they are still in service.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 05 Jan 2018 06:51

dkhare wrote:Need to wait for official confirmation but here is a tweet:
Indian Air Force to upgrade Jaguar with new @Honeywell_Aero F-125N engine. The @IAF_MCC will re-engine around 100 of its Jaguar fighter aircraft deployed in Jamnagar, Gorakhpur and Ambala.

https://twitter.com/scramble_nl/status/948674930828304384

Good find dkhare and I hope it is true. New life to the Jags, along with the Darin III upgrade...

Indian Air Force Jaguar Fighter Aircraft Likely to Get New Honeywell Engines for $783 Million
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/21662/ ... k7SFlSpkUQ
Dated - 01 Jan 2018

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 05 Jan 2018 06:53

Karan M wrote:Ok, you dastardly curious ever questioning lot. I finally can confirm the IAF did in fact get more R-77s relatively recently. A parliamentary report from 2012 notes contract for RVV missiles for Rs 2800 crore. Considering each missile at a million dollars, thats still 560 odd rounds. Clearly, this batch is not the one flagged by CAG as defective, those were procured from 1999-2002.

So yes, India does have some newer R-77 stocks till Astra comes online, probably one of these items was shown on the Su-30 at the recent AF day.
Missile life is 8 years before refurbishment.

Thank you Karan Saar. Good news. Can you clarify a bit more on the bolded/underlined part?

Can refurbishment fix/resolve the defective lot from 1999-2002?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 05 Jan 2018 07:01

Is this the right thread? Which service is this going to?

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/948890584365744130 --> MoD also approves purchase of Low Intensity Conflict Electronic Warfare System (LICEWS) from Bharat Electronics Limited for Rs 470 crore.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby A Deshmukh » 05 Jan 2018 12:08

Now, the US has announced sanctions on TSP, it would impact their solahs and Amraams.
what is the shelf life of Amraam? without US maint support?

this will give us some breathing time to mature Astra versions.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 05 Jan 2018 12:45

A Deshmukh wrote:Now, the US has announced sanctions on TSP, it would impact their solahs and Amraams.
what is the shelf life of Amraam? without US maint support?

this will give us some breathing time to mature Astra versions.


Hopefully the Turkey route for maintenance has also been shut down.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 05 Jan 2018 13:36

such contracted supplies and upkeep will go on as usual.

the paisa paid for allow NATO supplies by truck via quetta to af and for TSPA to beat the bushes in border tracts has been shut down.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby kit » 05 Jan 2018 13:57

A Deshmukh wrote:Now, the US has announced sanctions on TSP, it would impact their solahs and Amraams.
what is the shelf life of Amraam? without US maint support?

this will give us some breathing time to mature Astra versions.


That's for a quid pro quo..would be surprised if it lasts more than 6 months !!....I would like sanctions targeted at their generals..it will bite better

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cybaru » 05 Jan 2018 15:26

Rakesh wrote:
dkhare wrote:Need to wait for official confirmation but here is a tweet:
Indian Air Force to upgrade Jaguar with new @Honeywell_Aero F-125N engine. The @IAF_MCC will re-engine around 100 of its Jaguar fighter aircraft deployed in Jamnagar, Gorakhpur and Ambala.

https://twitter.com/scramble_nl/status/948674930828304384

Good find dkhare and I hope it is true. New life to the Jags, along with the Darin III upgrade...

Indian Air Force Jaguar Fighter Aircraft Likely to Get New Honeywell Engines for $783 Million
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/21662/ ... k7SFlSpkUQ
Dated - 01 Jan 2018


200 engines with enough life and power to be used in UAVs... Hope they can build something around b these engines

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 05 Jan 2018 21:50

I think there some R77 in Syria. Look at the video of Su30SM coming close to cargo doors of the IL76. Seems to be carrying R77's

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 06 Jan 2018 00:42

Rakesh wrote:
Karan M wrote:Ok, you dastardly curious ever questioning lot. I finally can confirm the IAF did in fact get more R-77s relatively recently. A parliamentary report from 2012 notes contract for RVV missiles for Rs 2800 crore. Considering each missile at a million dollars, thats still 560 odd rounds. Clearly, this batch is not the one flagged by CAG as defective, those were procured from 1999-2002.

So yes, India does have some newer R-77 stocks till Astra comes online, probably one of these items was shown on the Su-30 at the recent AF day.
Missile life is 8 years before refurbishment.

Thank you Karan Saar. Good news. Can you clarify a bit more on the bolded/underlined part?

Can refurbishment fix/resolve the defective lot from 1999-2002?


About refurbishment, what I mean is AF gives a life extension/rework order as necessary instead of junking old munitions wherever possible. Work is usually done at BDL with OEM assistance. Could mean significant rework to to merely replacing old batteries etc seeing propulsion has not expired and motors etc still work.

R-man, fixing older missiles was eggjactly the plan.

Parrikar apparently raised this when he went to Russia.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby AdityaM » 06 Jan 2018 03:22

If Boeing buys Embraer then could it impact future AEW&C

https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/boeing ... 1515174634

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 06 Jan 2018 03:41

I thought this deal fell through on Thursday.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ashish raval » 06 Jan 2018 03:42

AdityaM wrote:If Boeing buys Embraer then could it impact future AEW&C

https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/boeing ... 1515174634

It will definitely not go ahead as it is fundamentally against competition. Guarantee to fail regulatory hurdle.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 06 Jan 2018 04:22

Cybaru wrote:
200 engines with enough life and power to be used in UAVs... Hope they can build something around b these engines


I agree it's great opportunity to use those Adour engines for unmanned aerial vehicles even combat vehicles.

Deejay et al try to move this idea forward..

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 06 Jan 2018 04:54

In Vietnam war & in Bekaa valley, US/Israel used UAVs to mimic fighters & fly close to them to pick up valuable radar signals, telemetry and transmit it back to orbiting controllers for programming ECM. US uses decommissioned F-16s as target drones - we can reverse the issue and use them as missiles in themselves. Point being so much can be done with UAVs and UCAVs even with earlier gen technology!

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 06 Jan 2018 05:23

^^^

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 06 Jan 2018 06:38

Karan M wrote:About refurbishment, what I mean is AF gives a life extension/rework order as necessary instead of junking old munitions wherever possible. Work is usually done at BDL with OEM assistance. Could mean significant rework to to merely replacing old batteries etc seeing propulsion has not expired and motors etc still work.

R-man, fixing older missiles was eggjactly the plan.

Parrikar apparently raised this when he went to Russia.

Thanks Karan Saar. Do we know what happened after Parrikar went to Russia? Was an agreement signed for a refurbishment?

Also, had a question on the Astra AAM. The last test used an indigeneous seeker. Can that seeker be used during refurbishments of the old R-77 stock? Is that technically possible? If yes, I am sure the OEM would not agree.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 06 Jan 2018 10:26

I think that once the service life has expired , or OEM support warranties period over, all agreements would lapse.Rejuvenating these oldies with Desi components would be entirely our affair, how can anyone stop us from using an old round? There has been an expose on both medicines and foodstuffs reg. their expiry dates, deliberately brought forward in both cases allegedly, so that more sales take place.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Prithwiraj » 07 Jan 2018 05:32

Does any one know hiw many Mi 35 we still operate? We donated three to Afg AF. After that how many are we left with?
Last edited by Prithwiraj on 07 Jan 2018 05:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Prithwiraj » 07 Jan 2018 05:38

While surfing google I also came to know that Indian DoD has ordered 194 pipstrel virus 2 seater training aircraft across IAF, IN and NCC airwing. It was placed on 2015. But it seems hardly any media news was made about it. What are they planning to replace?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 07 Jan 2018 06:23

Philip wrote:I think that once the service life has expired , or OEM support warranties period over, all agreements would lapse.Rejuvenating these oldies with Desi components would be entirely our affair, how can anyone stop us from using an old round? There has been an expose on both medicines and foodstuffs reg. their expiry dates, deliberately brought forward in both cases allegedly, so that more sales take place.


Some of the better agreements include an options clause for OEM to reinspect the rounds and re-certify them. We don't use our own components until and unless we have to, and in which case the OEM often asks us to stop doing so. For instance, even fuel for UAVs is strictly specified by the OEM. These are all the myriad kinds of dependence imports bring.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 07 Jan 2018 06:32

Rakesh wrote:
Karan M wrote:About refurbishment, what I mean is AF gives a life extension/rework order as necessary instead of junking old munitions wherever possible. Work is usually done at BDL with OEM assistance. Could mean significant rework to to merely replacing old batteries etc seeing propulsion has not expired and motors etc still work.

R-man, fixing older missiles was eggjactly the plan.

Parrikar apparently raised this when he went to Russia.

Thanks Karan Saar. Do we know what happened after Parrikar went to Russia? Was an agreement signed for a refurbishment?


I presume it was raised, and the Russians said they would look into it. We have some 500 odd missiles which are life-expired and useless so to speak. That's half a billion in investment. Add to it the non working Kh-31s.

Also, had a question on the Astra AAM. The last test used an indigeneous seeker. Can that seeker be used during refurbishments of the old R-77 stock? Is that technically possible? If yes, I am sure the OEM would not agree.


Technically yes, it can be. But as you said, it would mean significant rework and the OEM will ask for a lot of money. Now, a seeker is basically the gimbal mechanism, the antenna, the transmitter & electronics. Most of this stuff should not deteriorate if properly stored. The batteries etc would have been disconnected until the round was stored in a live condition. In which case, the main issue would be to check for proper functioning of the electronics, put new batteries & see if the chemical portion - the motors & the warhead still work ok or need to be changed. That's where usually the work packages and kits come to BDL, which does it for the services.
Also, safety is an issue and that also needs to be factored in. If stored well, I do think these missiles can (theoretically) be fixed provided we are willing to spend more money.

Its the same case with a lot of our stocks of imported toys. Quite a few of them don't work as intended but of late, I believe, based on reports of extensive trials, the services have become more adept at trials having learned the hard way taking the brochure claims of our foreign brethren is not financially judicious.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby VishalJ » 08 Jan 2018 15:38

Thirteen links that tell the full story of the Pilatus PC-7 Mark II
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2018/01/thirteen-links-that-tell-full-story-of.html

The Times of India reports that the Indian Air Force’s (IAF’s) proposed follow-on contract for 38 additional Pilatus PC-7 Mark II basic trainers for Rs 1,450 crore has been put on hold due to graft allegations. The IAF’s proposed purchase of 38 Pilatus basic trainers from the Swiss company envisions exercising a 50 per cent options clause in the May 2012 contract for 75 Swiss Pilatus PC-7 basic trainers for Rs 2,896 crore.

Since 2013, I have reported almost single-handedly on the IAF’s motivated campaign to buy the Swiss Pilatus PC-7 Mark II, rather than supporting Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd’s (HAL’s) project to design and develop an indigenous basic trainer – the Hindustan Turbo Trainer – 40 (HTT-40), which is currently at an advanced stage of development.

:-?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby A Deshmukh » 08 Jan 2018 21:06

People are running a vicious campaign againt Pilatus and for HTT 40.
Every few years we keep seeing these negative stories.
A few facts:
1. As per this article, HTT40 is still in a stage of development. Whereas the purchase of Pilatus was done a few years back, when HTT-40 was still on paper/early design stage.
2. Pilatus is cheaper.
3. HTT-40 is certainly not 100% indigenous. There might be foreign vested component makers behind this anti-Pilatus campaign.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ashishvikas » 08 Jan 2018 21:57

Indian Air Force Su-30MKI Deploy to Hasimara

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/rest-of ... -hasimara/

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 08 Jan 2018 22:14

AW case thrown out by Italian Supreme Court! Italian SC says no case against the two CEOs of Finnmeccanica who have been released.

ACM Thyagi and his brother stand accused in India based upon the Italian original investigation, out on bail awaiting the next hearing in May , so what gives now? The Italian fiasco now surely will explode the case against the Indian accused as neither Spagnolini or Orsi are now guilty!

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 09 Jan 2018 02:30

ashishvikas wrote:Indian Air Force Su-30MKI Deploy to Hasimara

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/rest-of ... -hasimara/

Bases like these should be swarmed with LCA. We have had a long stable track record of the plane. It is time for us to push it and move the plane to be based at least on a rotational basis to frontline bases. I yearn for a day when our skies are guarded by large numbers of LCA Mk3cs

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Indranil » 09 Jan 2018 05:07

Deshmukh sir,

I agree with you. The PC-7 buy at that time was imperative. But I feel IAF's attempt to kill the HTT-40 was also unfair. By the way, point 2 is incorrect based on actual prices quoted till now.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 09 Jan 2018 06:57

^^^
No funding provided for HTT-40. HAL had to use its own funds to develop it.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 09 Jan 2018 09:55

ashishvikas wrote:Indian Air Force Su-30MKI Deploy to Hasimara

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/rest-of ... -hasimara/


This base 17Km from the Bhutan Border and the valley along the Torsa chhu river for about 90kM from Doklam goes straight near this Base. I hope the army has defensive assets to prevent such movements.

Need to keep a watch of Chinese rocket near Doklam artillery and any helicopter based commando teams

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 09 Jan 2018 13:04

The PIlatus PC-7 and PC-21 are proven aircraft,highly rated internationally.In fact the PC-21 negates the need for a secondary stage trainer/IJT, and can simulate the performance/characteristics of various frontline aircraft. Until the HTT-40 is fully developed and tested and we have no IJT-like issues, whatever reqs. the IAF require in the interim should be met with more PC-7s,whatever. HTT-40s can then be buiit in large number as the req. will be very high for the 3 services,BSF,CG,state entities and flying clubs.The services are simply fed up with constant promises of products that arrive years late,sometimes with patchy performance too.Still waiting for the LUH for at least 5 years now!

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby uddu » 09 Jan 2018 13:28

:lol:
PC-7 Cockpit
Image

HTT-40 cockpit
Image

HTT-40 beats the PC-7 hands down in terms of modern cockpit and is most suited to be the trainer that can help skip IJT training for pilots.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Indranil » 09 Jan 2018 13:42

srai wrote:^^^
No funding provided for HTT-40. HAL had to use its own funds to develop it.

IAF’s antagonism against the HTT-40 was much worse than just not providing funds.

1. IAF chief wrote to GOI against the aircraft and did produce best case scenarios of PC-7 Mk2 and worse case scenarios of HTT-40, including price.

2. The SQRs required for a desi trainer bird were indeed watered down to allow the PC-7. Even KAI lodged protests.

3. It asked HAL to drop the HTT-40 and license produce PC-7s instead.

4. While speaking of the initial animosity shown by the IAF towards the project, A disgruntled Bhaduria openly suggested that somebody delayed his engine procurement by six months by writing anonymous letter to MOD that the engine being procured is unsafe.

How IAF showed no interest in HAL proposals from 1995 onwards is also well catalogued.

Thankfully, these are behind us now.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby jpremnath » 09 Jan 2018 13:44

It is probably only in this country where people work overtime on multiple platforms to argue against domestic products even when they are proven to do the job with practically zero support from anyone involved except for their creators who unfortunately are never given a chance to air their part of the story.
Pilatus proved how trustworthy they are when they threw the onus on negotiating with the suppliers on the client when it came to maintenance and ensuring availability. The speed with which HTT 40 took to the skies from the drawing board was remarkable. Still the argument goes like this, buy the foreign one immediately, and the domestic one can be ordered later...and we all know how its gonna end up...
All foreign defense purchases includes cuts for the parties involved( ok, maybe not all, but atleast 90%) and the powers concerned are seeing that the gravy train is slowly getting disturbed and are not liking what they see...the defense reporters are seeing that their 'fully paid' foreign trips will turn up to simple chai biscuit in non ac auditoriums...the results are all there..in the media,twitter, Brf.. hit jobs hardly disguising as anything else...

may god save this country...

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Indranil » 09 Jan 2018 13:53

uddu wrote::lol:
PC-7 Cockpit
Image

HTT-40 cockpit
Image

HTT-40 beats the PC-7 hands down in terms of modern cockpit and is most suited to be the trainer that can help skip IJT training for pilots.

The second cockpit is that of the PC-21. A cockpit like that costs a lot of money. I doubt HTT-40’s cockpit will be like that.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby uddu » 09 Jan 2018 14:39

Sorry about that second pic. Here is the correct one of HTT-40 cockpit
Image
Fully digital one. So we could say a PC-21 type cockpit at the price of PC-7. Cool.


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