Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2277
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby JTull » 26 Apr 2018 13:51

Singha, are you sure about this Vulcanisque bomber? Nowadays with the plenty of options around SSMs (ballistic, cruise), a bomb truck is only for countries fighting far away from their own borders.

Peregrine
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5344
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Peregrine » 26 Apr 2018 15:18

X Posted on the Terroristani Thread

Lockheed to sweeten India's fighter jet bid with F-35 technology

NEW DELHI: Lockheed Martin Corp. will provide latest combat jet technologies including a target tracking device aboard the F-16 aircraft that it plans to offer to India in its bid for the world’s largest order from the Indian Air Force.

The global defence giant will offer jets equipped with the advanced radar which is fitted on its fifth-generation combat jet, the F-35, as well as a helmet-mounted tracking system and a new radio data link system, Vivek Lall, vice president for strategy and business development at Lockheed Martin said Wednesday.

The bid also comes with an offer to shift its lone production line for F-16s from Fort Worth, Texas in the US to India as it takes on competitors Saab AB and Boeing Co. The variant being pitched is the F-16 Block 70.

“There are a lot of technologies that come into the F-16 from F-35 and F-22, including the latest radar on these platforms,” Lall said in an interview. “It is a contemporary, state-of-the-art platform.”

Getting state-of-the-art fighters is crucial for Prime Minister Narendra Modi as the South Asian nation faces increased risks from neighboring Pakistan and China at a time when the Russian MiG jet -- India’s mainstay -- is being phased out. As part of that plan, India sought proposals from global manufacturers for 110 combat planes, a deal worth at least $15 billion.

The jet order is an attempt to modernise the South Asian nation’s defence forces, a plan which could cost as much as $250 billion over a 10-year period ending 2025. And Modi wants a significant part of it to be done locally under his ‘Make in India’ campaign, which aims to promote domestic manufacturing.

Lockheed Martin sees a huge export potential to provide over 200 F-16s to the global market if India chooses the aircraft, Lall said. The winner of the combat jet tender will be required to establish a production line within three years.

”We already see a global rise in the demand for F-16 from the 25 air forces around the world that already fly them. This export potential for the F-16s could be met through the exclusive production line we propose to put up in India,” Lall said.

Lockheed Martin has received the request for information from India for the F-16s to meet its air force requirement, he said

Cheers Image

RajD
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 94
Joined: 29 Mar 2011 16:01

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby RajD » 26 Apr 2018 15:36

Guys,
AvM Nanodkar sir has sent me a photo of the AVSM medal and a photocopy of the citation along with that of the actual scroll he received from the president.
Details of the description are a revelation of sorts. The vision and contributions from this man in a wide spectrum of fields are colossal. Hats off to him. Spoke to him. He has given permission to include these onto the Bharat Rakshak web page dedicated to his career in IAF database.
Kindly tell me how to upload them or post them inline since those are photographs.
Mean while if anybody had known beforehand please enlighten about Gaurav and Gautam LRGBs which according to him are based on Garuthama.
In his words he pushed for many a things and took charge or say initiative and was guiding force behind many such programmes with DRDO labs.
I hope he remains active in a different capacity. A great man indeed.
Regards.

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3388
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby JayS » 26 Apr 2018 18:18

Singha wrote:i wonder if we should attempt out own Pakdaski in parallel with the AMCA . a large wet wing will give good fuel tanks and lift....upturny wingletski for additional lift .... 2 large AL51 engines or 4 smaller ones .... such a platform might offer more penetration options than a purely standoff bomb truck of the B52/Bear/H6 mould.

Not the appropriate thread Saar.

JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2277
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby JTull » 26 Apr 2018 18:44

Image

Some recent tweets by @sneheshphilip quoting ACH Dhanoa:

IAF chief Air Marshal B S Dhanoa says Pakistan army cannot afford peace because then they cannot send their children to Ivy League colleges. Says Pak army will keep Kashnir boiling but not boil out.

IAF chief says Pakistan had a change of behaviour in 2001 when we threatened to bomb them to stone age. Says we have the capability to wage a short term war tomorrow

IAF chief literally issues a warning. We need to plan as per an adversary's capability because intention will change overnight. China has developed a modern air force

IAF chief says it is a misconception that IAF does not needs 42 squadrons. It needs 42 for full spectrum of war. Don't cherry pick war strategies, he said as he stresses on importance on having more modern aircraft

Pakistan will continue to back terror attacks, such strikes may have unintended consequences and lead to escalation: Air Marshal B S Dhanoa

IAF chief Air Marshal B S Dhanoa says there had been significant increase in deployment of aircraft and aircrew in Tibet Autonomous Region from other military regions

Asked if Tejas is better or SinoPak aircraft JF17, IAF chief says JF17 is an aircraft of present since it is there in large numbers. Tejas is an aircraft of future. Depends on what we equip Tejas with. Ouch!

Asked about need for more funds, IAF chief says if we spend all money on defence then our economy will be like that of our western neighbour (Pakistan)

IAF chief Air Marshal B S Dhanoa says F35 is not in contention and we are not in touch with them. The news is incorrect abt us talking to them.

IAF chief says Tejas is a good aircraft that you cannot ask why it cannot replace Rafale. Tejas is a medium role one. You cannot ask your child to go on big cycle first. Tejas Mark 1A will be better and then Tejas Mark 2 will be much better

Also says in response to another question that if an indigenous aircraft is as good as Rafale, I will be stupid to buy it. What he means is that Rafale is good and the indigenous is good too but no match of Rafale. He says if indigenous as good as Rafale, then he would go only for indigenous

The decision belongs to government. As far as I feel, it will go forward. The CNC has to finish and then there are procedures... More of a question for Finance Ministry than me: IAF chief Air Marshal B S Dhanoa when asked about S400 from Russia

IAF chief literally junked the concept of theatre commands. Says IAF has the capability to launch from Pune and strike in northern frontiers. Questions what Pakistan has achieved. Says we believe in one theatre, one country.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5413
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 26 Apr 2018 20:52

Thanks JTull. The last sentence is especially wonderful.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50070
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 26 Apr 2018 20:57

RajD wrote:Guys,
AMM Nanodkar(R) sir has sent me a photo of the AVSM medal and a photocopy of the citation along with that of the actual scroll he received from the President.
Details of the description are a revelation of sorts. The vision and contributions from this man in a wide spectrum of fields are colossal. Hats off to him. Spoke to him. He has given permission to include these onto the Bharat Rakshak web page dedicated to his career in IAF database.
Kindly tell me how to upload them or post them inline since those are photographs.
Mean while if anybody had known beforehand please enlighten about Gaurav and Gautam LRGBs which according to him are based on Garuthama.
In his words he pushed for many a things and took charge or say initiative and was guiding force behind many such programmes with DRDO labs.
I hope he remains active in a different capacity. A great man indeed.
Regards.



RajD, Thanks for reaching out to the AVM. Please hang on to the citations and will have the webmasters contact you.

I surmised the underlined sentence as the AVSM was awarded after his retirement date. Must be something big.

Is it too much to ask him to join us?
Or alternatively can we ask questions and he might answer if appropriate?

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50070
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 26 Apr 2018 21:15

JTull wrote:....

Some recent tweets by @sneheshphilip quoting ACH Dhanoa:

IAF chief Air Marshal B S Dhanoa says Pakistan army cannot afford peace because then they cannot send their children to Ivy League colleges. Says Pak army will keep Kashnir boiling but not boil out.

IAF chief says Pakistan had a change of behaviour in 2001 when we threatened to bomb them to stone age. Says we have the capability to wage a short term war tomorrow

IAF chief literally issues a warning. We need to plan as per an adversary's capability because intention will change overnight.
China has developed a modern air force

IAF chief says it is a misconception that IAF does not needs 42 squadrons. It needs 42 for full spectrum of war. Don't cherry pick war strategies, he said as he stresses on importance on having more modern aircraft


{In the model I did in 1999, 12 squadrons were on standby for escalation control in one sector while 30 were engaged in combat operations on the other sector. So we do need the 45 squadrons ideally. Modern aircraft have qualitative features which give quantitative results on their own. For example modern navigation and targeting systems allow more accurate weapon delivery leading to target destruction with fewer weapons and sorties which again result in less loss rate or at same sortie rate a faster war. The BVR and WVR missiles give better air intercept and can out shoot the opponents and ensure hard kills. One missile one kill.}

Pakistan will continue to back terror attacks, such strikes may have unintended consequences and lead to escalation: Air ChiefMarshal B S Dhanoa

IAF chief Air Marshal B S Dhanoa says there had been significant increase in deployment of aircraft and aircrew in Tibet Autonomous Region from other military regions


{You can see Phase II was longer than Phase I due to this very reason....}


Asked if Tejas is better or SinoPak aircraft JF17, IAF chief says JF17 is an aircraft of present since it is there in large numbers. Tejas is an aircraft of future. Depends on what we equip Tejas with. Ouch!

Asked about need for more funds, IAF chief says if we spend all money on defence then our economy will be like that of our western neighbour (Pakistan)

IAF chief Air Marshal B S Dhanoa says F35 is not in contention and we are not in touch with them. The news is incorrect abt us talking to them.

IAF chief says Tejas is a good aircraft that you cannot ask why it cannot replace Rafale. Tejas is a medium role one. You cannot ask your child to go on big cycle first. Tejas Mark 1A will be better and then Tejas Mark 2 will be much better

Also says in response to another question that if an indigenous aircraft is as good as Rafale, I will be stupid to buy it. What he means is that Rafale is good and the indigenous is good too but no match of Rafale. He says if indigenous as good as Rafale, then he would go only for indigenous

The decision belongs to government. As far as I feel, it will go forward. The CNC has to finish and then there are procedures... More of a question for Finance Ministry than me: IAF chief Air Marshal B S Dhanoa when asked about S400 from Russia


IAF chief literally junked the concept of theatre commands. Says IAF has the capability to launch from Pune and strike in northern frontiers. Questions what Pakistan has achieved. Says we believe in one theatre, one country.



If Phase I was only 3 days as said before, its right to concentrate on Pakistan as its immediate threat and achieve success and then shift to the East.

However I think the 2 front war will stay one front only as China wont risk a defeat.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3876
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 26 Apr 2018 23:15

The ACM once again mentioned Tejas Mk2 in that interview. Slowly but surely it is building up the momentum towards the start of that program. Especially if the primary customer keeps repeating that it is going to come.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50070
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 26 Apr 2018 23:31

Kartik wrote:The ACM once again mentioned Tejas Mk2 in that interview. Slowly but surely it is building up the momentum towards the start of that program. Especially if the primary customer keeps repeating that it is going to come.



I think once the DPC starts meeting regularly all these bottle necks will get cleared.

Any idea what is holding up the SOP for Tejas trainer?

RajD
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 94
Joined: 29 Mar 2011 16:01

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby RajD » 26 Apr 2018 23:54

Thanks Ramanaji for your kind words.
I'm delighted to tell you that he was a visiter although not a frequent one even during his service tenure to Bharat Rakshak forums and he knows a few old BRFITES personally.
There is a detailed description of all the programmes in the citation that he guided personally with great interest with DRDO working towards acheiving self reliance in developing various critical weapon systems. While speaking with him he told that quite a lot is being done in the past few years to achieve tri-service synergy and coordination.

RajD
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 94
Joined: 29 Mar 2011 16:01

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby RajD » 27 Apr 2018 00:15

And about your last point Ramanaji I'll ask him whether he'd be comfortable with that.
Regards.

RajD
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 94
Joined: 29 Mar 2011 16:01

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby RajD » 27 Apr 2018 00:28

Lastly,
For easy comms kindly inform the web masters to mail me at drrsda@Hotmail. Com.
Regards.

arnabh
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 70
Joined: 23 Jan 2010 00:51

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby arnabh » 27 Apr 2018 02:48


Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5413
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 27 Apr 2018 06:28

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/989091782439919616 ---> What likely got Chinese attention more than anything else during Gagan Shakti 2018? Harpoon-armed Jaguars & a BrahMos armed Su-30 MKI flying sim strike profiles near and around the Malacca Strait. Didn’t reveal a new capability, but the messaging was clear.

Image

SiddharthS
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 62
Joined: 04 Sep 2017 15:45

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby SiddharthS » 27 Apr 2018 16:30

Gripen influencers and import lobby is trying hard to divert attention from Tejas's phenomenal success, under-reporting on its stellar performance and over-reporting on the snags. Few muddied positive reports are sprinkled in intermittently lest people suspect their true allegiance.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50070
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 27 Apr 2018 20:12

X-post from China thread in Strat Forum:

Peregrine wrote:Forget 1962, India now better poised to deter the Dragon

NEW DELHI: The swift dragon can be held to a stalemate, even though it may be able to inflict some damage by breathing fire. India is militarily no longer the pushover it was during the 1962 war despite persisting critical operational and infrastructure gaps as well as the ever-expanding military asymmetry with China.

This is the assessment of top Indian military commanders, who contend they are being realistic without any false bravado, even as PM Narendra Modi heads for China later this week to reset ties and cool down tempers with the much larger neighbour.

“India does not want war. But if the push comes to shove, we are prepared. China has been forced to grudgingly accept that India is no pushover after repeatedly testing our resolve over the last few years, especially during the Doklam troop face-off last year,” said a senior official.

Some may dub this gung-ho approach foolhardy, given the People’s Liberation Army’s overwhelming superiority in terms of sheer military power. Apart from a huge nuclear missile arsenal that dwarfs India’s, China is also leagues ahead in conventional military power, be it submarines and fighters or tanks and artillery (see graphic). Moreover, backed by economic muscle, China adroitly combines this “hard power” with “smart power” in terms of cyber warfare and other disruptive capabilities.

But a walkover like 1962, it will not be. With Chinese military capabilities mainly geared towards preventing any intervention by the US and others in the Taiwan Strait and South China Sea, it all comes down to what the PLA can “actually throw” at India along the 4,057-km Line of Actual Control stretching from Ladakh to Arunachal Pradesh.

“The terrain does not give the PLA adequate space for maneuverability. And we have the capability to counter-attack,” said a senior Army officer. India has 15 infantry divisions (each with over 12,000 soldiers) tasked for its “northern borders” with China, apart from several artillery, missile, tank and air defence regiments and other reserves.

Moreover, the new 17 Mountain Strike Corps and associated units, with a total of 90,274 soldiers for “swift ground offensive capabilities”, will be fully raised by 2021-2022. “PLA, as an aggressor, would require a combat ratio of at least 6:1 for mountain warfare along the LAC. We have more than adequate numbers for dissuasive deterrence,” he added.

India holds most of the aces as far as the maritime domain is concerned. Indian warships can easily choke China’s sea lanes for its huge energy imports, especially through the Malacca Strait. “The PLA Navy may be much larger but in terms of operational expertise and experience in the Indian Ocean Region, they are far behind. The Chinese Navy is still learning to operate far away from its shores,” said a senior naval officer.

Similarly, even though China may have constructed 14 major airfields, advanced landing grounds and helipads on the Tibet Plateau, the IAF can conceivably outgun its numerically superior adversary. For one, the weapon and fuel-carrying capacity of Chinese fighters is limited due to the 9,000 to 10,000-feet altitude of their airbases.

“They will try to use their rocket forces to disrupt our airbases…That’s why during the just-concluded GaganShakti exercise, we war-gamed hitting China from widely dispersed locations. We also conducted maritime interdiction sorties in the Bay of Bengal,” said a senior IAF officer.

The overall aim is to build credible strategic deterrence to dissuade China from embarking on any misadventure. And, India is slowly but steadily getting there.

Cheers Image


The overall aim is to show conventional forces capability to maintain the nuclear threshold remains high.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4087
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 28 Apr 2018 01:51

...
IAF chief literally junked the concept of theatre commands. Says IAF has the capability to launch from Pune and strike in northern frontiers. Questions what Pakistan has achieved. Says we believe in one theatre, one country.
...

Sounds like more long range fighters i.e. Su-30MKI required.

JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2277
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby JTull » 28 Apr 2018 17:39

srai wrote:
...
IAF chief literally junked the concept of theatre commands. Says IAF has the capability to launch from Pune and strike in northern frontiers. Questions what Pakistan has achieved. Says we believe in one theatre, one country.
...

Sounds like more long range fighters i.e. Su-30MKI required.


No. More tankers needed.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4087
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 29 Apr 2018 03:48

JTull wrote:
srai wrote:Sounds like more long range fighters i.e. Su-30MKI required.


No. More tankers needed.

Combination of both ;)

Peregrine
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5344
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Peregrine » 29 Apr 2018 17:19

X Posted on Terroristan Thread

PAF Celebrating Golden Jubilee of its Mirage Phighters!

Ageing fighter jets still flying high in Pakistan
ISLAMABAD: The sprawling complex at Kamra, west of Islamabad, reverbates at the thundering take-off of a Mirage Rose-1, the latest ageing fighter jet to have been gutted and reassembled by the Pakistani Air Force (PAF).
Fifty years after the country bought its first Mirages, many planes in the venerable fleet are still being patched up, overhauled and upgraded for use in combat, years after conventional wisdom dictates they should be grounded.
Cheers Image

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19366
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 30 Apr 2018 13:14

I wonder how many of the 200 odd legacy MIG-21s can still be upgraded to Bison std.? Surely a sqd. or tow could be salvaged from the lot being retd.? These could be used for war stocks,or rotated operationally with those in service.I think that only the last lot,21-Bis may be possible upgraded,not the earlier types.

Vips
BRFite
Posts: 856
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Vips » 30 Apr 2018 18:29

Peregrine wrote:X Posted on Terroristan Thread

PAF Celebrating Golden Jubilee of its Mirage Phighters!

Ageing fighter jets still flying high in Pakistan
But even with the improvements and cost-saving measures, the ageing planes are becoming more difficult to maintain. “They have outlived their lives… after their overhauls [they] have become highly unreliable, we even met with lots of accidents,” Lateef said.


So after the overhauls , they have become unreliable and are doing AOA :rotfl: :rotfl:

Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12753
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Lalmohan » 30 Apr 2018 18:33

Philip wrote:I wonder how many of the 200 odd legacy MIG-21s can still be upgraded to Bison std.? Surely a sqd. or tow could be salvaged from the lot being retd.? These could be used for war stocks,or rotated operationally with those in service.I think that only the last lot,21-Bis may be possible upgraded,not the earlier types.


only the 21-Bis were considered for upgrade to 21-Bison if I remember correctly
the MF's prior to that or PFMA's(?) were already old

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2453
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby tsarkar » 30 Apr 2018 20:56

We retired our Type 77 in 2013 about 49 years since HAL started manufacturing them in 1964.

We retired our Type 96 / Type 88 in 2017 43 year after importing/manufacturing them since 1974

225 MiG 21 bis were manufactured 1980 to 1989 and 125 were converted to Bison. Old airframes and maintenance intensive Kopyo radar of which IAF is the only user makes further upgrade economically unviable.

Some of our MiG-21 were built after F-16 for Pakistan, however Pakistan has access to superior OEM support from US and later Turkey.

VKumar
BRFite
Posts: 415
Joined: 15 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Mumbai,India

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby VKumar » 30 Apr 2018 22:33

srai wrote:
JTull wrote:
No. More tankers needed.

Combination of both ;)


Need one tanker and one AWACS per squadron for good performance.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21768
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 30 Apr 2018 23:18

IAF has Paid with lives to help homegrown tech - IAF Chief

Image

Peregrine
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5344
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Peregrine » 30 Apr 2018 23:59

Peregrine wrote:X Posted on Terroristan Thread

PAF Celebrating Golden Jubilee of its Mirage Phighters!

Ageing fighter jets still flying high in Pakistan
Vips wrote: So after the overhauls , they have become unreliable and are doing AOA :rotfl: :rotfl:
Vips Ji : They have no options i.e.
The best option to replace them would be the Rafale, as neighbour and arch-rival India – which has also flown and maintained Mirages for decades – is doing, signing a deal with Dassault in 2016.
However
The price tag is too much for Pakistan, however, retired Air Commodore Tariq Yazdani said. Instead Pakistan plans to replace them with the JF-17 Thunder aircraft that it co-developed and co-produced with China, the original manufacturer.
Thus they have no options but to buy the Thaneydar even though Chinawalas are not using this Aircraft.
Cheers Image

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50070
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 01 May 2018 01:07

Austin, All the more reason why HAL should open a third line at Sulur for the Tejas Mk2 timeframe. this will lead into the AMCA when it comes.

Haridas
BRFite
Posts: 286
Joined: 26 Dec 2017 07:53

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Haridas » 01 May 2018 10:18

My salute to ACM Latif. Got to see him few times from some distance.

Former IAF chief Idris Hasan Latif passes away at 94

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... y-5157676/

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35041
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby shiv » 01 May 2018 11:16

Austin wrote:IAF has Paid with lives to help homegrown tech - IAF Chief

Hate to lose lives. I lost a good friend in a Kiran crash. But this is how all western nations developed aero tech. I have said this again and again

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2453
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby tsarkar » 01 May 2018 11:26

ramana wrote:Austin, All the more reason why HAL should open a third line at Sulur for the Tejas Mk2 timeframe. this will lead into the AMCA when it comes.

Converting the Nashik line to Tejas after completion of Su-30MKI production in 2019 makes more sense. The suppliers can set up a second line of products as well. Keeping two geographically separate lines is good disaster recovery strategy, whether natural (earthquakes, rains, flooding) or manmade (act of war, political unrest).

16 per annum in Bangalore and Nashik each gives 32 planes per year that over a 30 year production run - the average lifetime of a new fighter - gives 960 aircraft enough for 42-45 squadrons + ample attrition replacement. The lines should progressively evolve from Mk1, Mk1A, Mk2, AMCA. And until the next evolution is ready, more of the old should be built to keep lines busy and workers proficient.

Haridas
BRFite
Posts: 286
Joined: 26 Dec 2017 07:53

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Haridas » 01 May 2018 11:37

I too lost a hyderabadi friend in Kiran crash. ACM is bean counting IAF crew loss testing homegrown (sic) aircraft. Honestly speaking one must also recount IAF pilots lost flying defective foriegn grown aircrafts, and thank for all the pilots who successfully landed back on homegrown or home modified (jugaad ) firangi aircrafts.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21768
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 01 May 2018 12:44

My Salute to our Chief ...Rest In Peace Sir

Image
Image

darshhan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2280
Joined: 12 Dec 2008 11:52

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby darshhan » 01 May 2018 12:56

17 number Test Pilots killed is not such a huge number. It only shows low level of focus on indigenous aviation projects.

Interestingly wiki has a link on Test Pilots which contains the following snippet. Take it for what its worth.

In the 1950s, test pilots were being killed at the rate of about one a week, but the risks have shrunk to a fraction of that, thanks to the maturation of aircraft technology, better ground-testing and simulation of aircraft performance, fly by wire technology and lately, the use of unmanned aerial vehicles to test experimental aircraft features. Still, piloting experimental aircraft remains more dangerous than most other types of flying.


If countries US or Russia are today respected/feared around the world, it is because their leaders have shown their ruthlesness (even callous disregard) for human lives( Both theirs as well as the enemy's).

Manish_P
BRFite
Posts: 1360
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 01 May 2018 13:09

Haridas wrote:ACM is bean counting IAF crew loss testing homegrown (sic) aircraft.


With all due respect, Haridas ji, i think that the ACM was only responding to the specific barbs (by some sections of the media and the general populace) that the IAF is an import-pasand airforce and does not support indigenous efforts.

Manish_P
BRFite
Posts: 1360
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 01 May 2018 13:16

darshhan wrote:
In the 1950s, test pilots were being killed at the rate of about one a week, but the risks have shrunk to a fraction of that, thanks to the maturation of aircraft technology, better ground-testing and simulation of aircraft performance, fly by wire technology and lately, the use of unmanned aerial vehicles to test experimental aircraft features. Still, piloting experimental aircraft remains more dangerous than most other types of flying.


Very correct. Just look at the V22 Tilt Rotor Aircraft record - wiki link

The V-22 Osprey had 12 hull loss accidents that resulted in a total of 42 fatalities. During testing from 1991 to 2006 there were four crashes resulting in 30 fatalities. Since becoming operational in 2007, the V-22 has had seven crashes including two combat-zone crashes, and several other accidents and incidents that resulted in twelve fatalities


Aviation Safety database - link

darshhan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2280
Joined: 12 Dec 2008 11:52

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby darshhan » 01 May 2018 13:23

Another link based on a diary of a test pilot who actually died in the aircraft he was supposed to be testing.
ohn K. Northrop and Glen Edwards never met, but their paths nearly crossed in February 1946, at Wright Field in Dayton, Ohio. Captain Edwards, a 50-mission veteran of World War II, had earned a coveted slot as an Army Air Forces test pilot. But this was the peacetime Army, with low pay, slow promotion, and, for test pilots, a death rate rivalling that in wartime


ACM(or still better National leadership) should be saying that "we will induct 1000 Tejas mk1/mk1a/AMCA's by 2030 even if it costs us 170 or 1700 test pilots". Ofcourse it can be done.
Last edited by darshhan on 01 May 2018 13:33, edited 1 time in total.

darshhan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2280
Joined: 12 Dec 2008 11:52

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby darshhan » 01 May 2018 13:31

Shedding Copius amount of blood(both enemy's as well as one's own) without flinching is the absolute minimum Qualification requirement when it comes to ruling the world. If Bharat wants to be the next superpower, it should not and cannot afford to fret over 17 martyred test pilots. 'cause more dead bodies will be required.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15356
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 01 May 2018 13:47

Lets keep the talk of lives etc out of the discussion. 17 lives lost by IAF is not a trivial matter, its 17 families suffering and lets stop it there.

Back on topic.

I think the IAF needs to understand that people harping on indigenization are not pontificating or trying to disrespect them. This is a serious issue in India with the civil military divide.

I have yet to come across a single services commentator who takes any suggestion without being angry that it somehow implies they are not being given due respect. The issue is very simple, several times imported arms don't work and are not reliable, and the quantitative data bears it out. When they do work (e.g. short conflicts), they do so after huge amounts of elbow grease from MEA and GOI are used up in making foreign powers agree to help us, for some quid pro quo. The IAF is talking constantly of Rafale, but do they also remember how the ex-French PM during whose time the entire MMRCA was run, summoned the GOI Ambassador over religious freedom in India? The Russians who don't do this, have swallowed countless delegations, to even make basic spares in India. We have read countless reports on it, but its yet to happen.

If the IAF, IA, IN remain dependent on foreign arms, we lose our hard won strategic independence. Pure and simple.
Here we have reports the IN is upset that it was asked by BARC to sponsor an unproven reactor program. The IAFs reluctance on the LCA is well known. Ultimately buck stops with the MOD, and then MOF and the PM. Until and unless the services are given proper funding so that they can invest in LCAs and Navy in reactors, without wondering what that money spent would be used up from (spares, capex etc).


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 34 guests