Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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Philip
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 01 May 2018 17:32

When we discuss lives lost also remember the disastrous HT-32 which HAL was was trying to shove down the IAF's throat,apart from MIGs lost mainly due to poor quality of spares obtained from the grey market and not quite perfect manufacture by HAL of which the IAF complained a lot.

However,in recent times,the quality issue has been less of a problem rather than spares and support,for which the matter is being resolved with JVs in India to support .What both India and Pak are facing is galloping obsolescence,shrinking budgets (at least in India!) ,and like the Cubans magnificently keeping their old crocks functioning , making use of every old bird as an asset.I've often tossed up the idea of using old aircraft as kamikaze missiles,drones,etc.The Pakis are taking ourexample of the Bison to heart with their longevity efforts for the venerable Mirage.Of the few hundreds of MIGs retiring,do they still have useful possibilities? Time to think outside the box,but then the MOD never does.

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/thrifty ... ng-1844415
[quote]
Thrifty At 50: Pakistan Keeps Ageing Mirages Flying
Fifty years after Pakistan bought its first Mirages, many planes in the venerable fleet are still being patched up, overhauled and upgraded for use in combat, years after conventional wisdom dictates they should be grounded.
World | Agence France-Presse | Updated: April 29, 2018 11:11 IST

Thrifty At 50: Pakistan Keeps Ageing Mirages Flying
Fifty years after Pakistan bought its first Mirages, many planes in the venerable fleet

KAMRA, PAKISTAN: The sprawling complex at Kamra, west of Islamabad, reverbates at the thundering take-off of a Mirage Rose-1, the latest ageing fighter jet to have been gutted and reassembled by the Pakistani Air Force.

Fifty years after Pakistan bought its first Mirages, many planes in the venerable fleet are still being patched up, overhauled and upgraded for use in combat, years after conventional wisdom dictates they should be grounded.

That includes one of the first two planes originally purchased from France's Dassault in 1967, which was in a hangar at Kamra after its record fifth overhaul when AFP visited recently.

The techniques they have developed are reminiscent of -- but far more high-tech and lethal than -- the improvised methods used to keep classic American cars running on the streets of Havana.

mirage rose 1 afp 650
Technicians work on a Mirage aircraft during a full overhaul by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF)

"We have achieved such a capability that our experts can integrate any latest system with the ageing Mirages,"
says Air Commodore Salman M. Farooqi, deputy managing director of the Mirage Rebuild Factory (MRF) at the Kamra complex.

Pakistan bought its first Mirages to diversify its fleet, which in the late 1960s largely consisted of US-built planes: F-104 Starfighters, T-37 Tweety Birds and F-86 Sabres.

The Mirage became a popular choice, with the Air Force buying 17 different variants in later years, eventually owning the second-highest number of the fighter jets after France.

They performed bombing missions during Pakistan's failed war with India in 1971 -- one of the shortest conflicts in history, lasting just 13 days and leading to the creation of Bangladesh.

mirage rose 1 afp 650
Mirage aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) prepares for a first test run

But Mirages flew on, also carrying out reconnaissance missions in India, and intercepting and shooting down Soviet and Afghan planes that violated Pakistani airspace during the Soviet war.

Usually the jet has two or three life cycles, each spanning around 12 years. But overhauling them abroad was expensive for Pakistan, a developing country whose budget is already disproportionately tilted towards its military and which has historically received billions in military assistance from countries such as the US.

So, with the help of experts from Dassault, the air force decided if you want something done for the right price, you've got to do it yourself.

Makeover

The Mirage Rebuild Factory was established at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in 1978, and in the years since has saved "billions" of dollars for Pakistan, according to Group Captain Muhammad Farooq, in charge of one of the maintenance hangars -- though he said the exact figure was difficult to pin down.

The planes take some seven weeks to be overhauled and repainted, he said, adding that usually the MRF has the capacity for more than a dozen planes a year. Its calendar for the next decade or so is already booked up.

At least eight different Mirage variants, including the Mirage 5-EF, Mirage III-DP and Mirage-III Rose-I, were in one of the maintenance hangers when AFP visited.

Engineers and technicians were dismantling cockpit instrument panels and landing gear while undertaking a "non-destructive inspection", essentially an X-ray to detect faults in the wings and airframe.

Dozens of engines awaiting overhaul were piled in one hangar. Even planes that had suffered accidents such as fires breaking out have been patched back together at the facility.

Pakistan has also been buying up discarded Mirages from other countries to bring through the facility, said retired Air Marshal Shahid Lateef.

mirage rose 1 afp 650
Pakistan Air Force (PAF) at the Mirage Rebuild Factory (MRF) in Kamra, west of the capital Islamabad.

The most important technological improvement, developed with the help of South Africa, is the ability to integrate air-to-air refuelling, Farooqi said.

The "identification of friend and foe" (IFF) system, which detects when a Mirage has been locked on to by the system of another plane, was also a key development, he said.

Grand dames

But even with the improvements and cost-saving measures, the ageing planes are becoming more difficult to maintain.

"They have outlived their lives... after their overhauls (they) have become highly unreliable, we even met with lots of accidents," Lateef said.

The best option to replace them would be the Rafale, as neighbour and arch-rival India -- which has also flown and maintained Mirages for decades -- is doing, signing a deal with Dassault in 2016.

The price tag is too much for Pakistan, however, retired Air Commodore Tariq Yazdani said.

Instead Pakistan plans to replace them with the JF-17 Thunder aircraft that it co-developed and co-produced with China, the original manufacturer.

Even as it becomes more urgent to phase them out, Mirages' status as the grand dames of Pakistani military aviation cannot be dismissed, Yazdani, who has logged 1,500 hours flying them, told AFP.

It is a "very agile aircraft capable of penetrating deep into the enemy's territory without being detected by radar, which makes its sole mission -- to drop bombs on the enemy's position -- quite easy," he said.

COMMENTS"It is an old aircraft," said aviation writer Alan Warnes, author of two books on the Pakistani air force. "But Pakistani pilots have been flying this plane with the utmost accuracy and expertise."
/quote]

PS:Venerable "bomb trucks"!

Manish_P
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 01 May 2018 19:20

^
You seem to have missed this part

But even with the improvements and cost-saving measures, the ageing planes are becoming more difficult to maintain. "They have outlived their lives... after their overhauls (they) have become highly unreliable, we even met with lots of accidents," Lateef said.


It even meets up with your 'out-of-the-box' suggestion...

I've often tossed up the idea of using old aircraft as kamikaze missiles

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Haridas » 01 May 2018 21:00

Manish_P wrote:
Haridas wrote:ACM is bean counting IAF crew loss testing homegrown (sic) aircraft.


With all due respect, Haridas ji, i think that the ACM was only responding to the specific barbs (by some sections of the media and the general populace) that the IAF is an import-pasand airforce and does not support indigenous efforts.

Manish ji, that exactly is my contention, that IAF has entrenched culture that is import pasand and fosters that ecosystem. IAF that is more balanced would have invested much more in indigenous ( teh new modern word is home grown [sic]. As in home grown potato and cauliflower) weapon development with tangible results to show, not some measly statistics. It is JMT and clearly very different from your perspective.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 02 May 2018 01:40

Philip wrote:When we discuss lives lost also remember the disastrous HT-32 which HAL was was trying to shove down the IAF's throat,apart from MIGs lost mainly due to poor quality of spares obtained from the grey market and not quite perfect manufacture by HAL of which the IAF complained a lot.

If you have data comparing the number of "MiGs" lost due to "grey market spares" vs those lost due to other reasons, please do post it here. Otherwise I'm calling BS on that claim.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 02 May 2018 01:55

Philip,
Please don't post Paki fizzle ya news in IAF thread.

We have a thread for that.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ShauryaT » 02 May 2018 03:09


Viv S
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Viv S » 02 May 2018 12:23

The Soaring Life of Former IAF Chief Idris Hasan Latif

From flying Spitfires in World War II, to becoming the IAF chief and the governor of a state, and finally a diplomat – Air Chief Marshal Idris Latif, who passed away on April 30, had a long and distinguished career.

Image

Air Chief Marshal Idris Latif, Second World War combat pilot, Air Chief, State Governor, Ambassador, was born on 9 June 1923. He died on April 30, 2018.

From flying Spitfires in World War II, to becoming the chief of the Indian Air Force to being the governor of a state and then finally a diplomat – Air Chief Marshal Idris Latif, who passed away on April 30, had a long and distinguished career. He was a few weeks short of his 95th birthday.

Idris Hasan Latif was born on June 9, 1923, into a distinguished Suleimani Bohra family. His father, a graduate of Oxford and Heidelberg, was chief engineer of Hyderabad State. From his meticulously-digitised photo albums and his family’s recollections, the young Idris appears to have had an idyllic childhood, with six siblings, plenty of sports and other recreations, and conscientious teachers in several schools, before he briefly joined Nizam’s College.

He applied to join the Indian Air Force as soon as he turned 17½, the earliest permissible wartime age; and was selected in 1941. He underwent initial flying training at Begumpet, and was commissioned on 26 January 1942. The first three aircraft types he flew in the IAF were all biplanes, with fabric skin stretched over a wooden frame, quite representative of the flimsy, obsolete equipment with which the infant IAF was being asked to train for and go to war.

However, in June 1943, Flying Officer Latif was despatched to the UK, one of a batch of 25 Indian pilots, for training on modern Hurricanes and Spitfires, and a spell of operational experience with an RAF squadron. The entire batch were on the point of being deployed to support the D Day landings in Normandy, when the IAF pressed for their urgent return to participate in planned offensives on the Burma front.

Back in India, Flying Officer Latif was posted back to 3 Squadron, now flying Hurricanes, and embarked on a full tour of combat duty in Burma. This was very different from combat flying over Europe. There were much wider spaces, and virtually no radar coverage; hence air-to-air encounters were rare. Most combat was ground-attack or close support to troops; unglamorous but essential and equally lethal.

After Japan’s surrender, Latif and his squadron returned to India. He was posted soon after to 9 Squadron which, to his delight, was flying the single seater Spitfires. In June 1946, he was a member of the Indian contingent which participated in a major Victory Parade in London. Photographs show a youthful Flying Officer Latif being presented to the royal family of the time.

By 1950, Latif was a Squadron Leader, and commanding 4 Squadron, flying the Hawker Tempest, one of the last and most powerful piston-engined fighters. The Tempest had a somewhat nefarious reputation by then – its engine was prone to burst into flames without warning. Piston-engine technology limits had been pushed a little too far; but then, as now, the IAF made do with what it had.

In 1951, Latif married Bilkees, the daughter of Nawab Ali Yavar Jung, at the time the Vice Chancellor of Osmania University and soon after the Indian Ambassador to Argentina. The marriage would last 66 years, till Mrs Latif passed away last year. Interestingly, Ali Yavar Jung too had been governor of Maharashtra.

In 1955, Wing Commander Latif was deputed as an Advisor to the Air Force of Indonesia. Over the next five years, he progressed through a series of staff roles, promotion to Group Captain, and command of Air Force Station at Begumpet, where he had learned to fly for the IAF.

In 1961, he took up the role of Air Attache at the Indian embassy in Washington, DC; and held it through promotion to Air Commodore.

During the 1965 war with Pakistan, Air Cmde Latif was the first Air Defence Commander for the Eastern Theatre. In the run up to the 1971 war, he was appointed to the new post of Assistant Chief of Air Staff (Plans), where he had a major role in planning for the 1971 war. He took on an undocumented, and largely untold role as Air Chief Marshal PC Lal’s emissary in several aspects of the IAF’s operations in the Eastern theatre, during that war, and was decorated with the PVSM.

In the mid-1970s, as an Air Marshal, Latif served as C-in-C of Maintenance Command, and then of Central Air Command. On September 1, 1978, he assumed the rank of Air Chief Marshal, and the office of Chief of the Air Staff.

A number of key aircraft procurements came to fruition during Air Chief Marshal Latif’s time as Chief. But in many ways, his tenure was something of an emollient. The Air Force was at the time recovering from some harsh episodes in its history, and Air Chief Marshal Latif’s transparent consideration of the human aspects of his role was salutary and restorative.

Air Chief Marshal Latif retired as Air Chief after a three-year tenure, on August 31, 1981. Soon after, in March 1982 he was appointed governor of Maharashtra. Almost immediately on assuming that role, he was pitchforked into a politically-sensitive situation on the governor’s rarely-exercised responsibility to rule on an accusation against the then chief minister A.R. Antulay. He burnt the midnight oil, heard out numerous ministers and other powerful parties, and finally issued a difficult, but clearly correct decision, against the CM.

During the rest of the Latifs’ time in Bombay, as it was then, Mrs Latif threw herself into social work in the city’s slums. Both the Air Chief Marshal and Mrs Latif also devoted themselves to cleaning up the environment, and addressing issues around communalism. I recall an acquaintance saying of them, in awed tones, that they “radiated decency” throughout their tenure there.

To his tenure as Ambassador to France, from 1982 to 1985, which was demanding in social and protocol terms, he and Mrs Latif brought the same grace, dignity and human compassion as they had to all others. With all the demands of the position, one of the aspects of his ambassadorship he most enjoyed was hosting batches of IAF personnel who came to France over that period, for training. A young IAF Squadron Leader who arrived in Paris in mid-winter, inadequately-clad, recalled he had 500 francs discreetly pressed into his palm by the Ambassador, with a whispered suggestion on where to purchase an appropriate jacket.

Image
("Pictured with 'Eagles over Bangladesh'")

The Latifs returned to Hyderabad in 1985 to retire and deeply involved themselves in the city’s social life and good causes. For all their contributions in public life, people remember them primarily for their humanity. A few years ago, the daughter of an old IAF connection, on her way to visit them, called to apologise for running late, explaining that her car was caught in a traffic jam a little short of their home. The then 89-year-old Air Chief Marshal had to be almost physically restrained from going out to rescue her himself.

The Latifs continued to host open house for anyone with an IAF connection, till a couple of years ago when their health began to fail. Mrs Latif passed away in October 2017. They are survived by three children and five grandchildren.

Philip
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 02 May 2018 12:35

I don't lurk at any Paki site,please! The facts are well-known.Here's a TOI report about the controversy about spares.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 395007.cms
ndia buying faulty MiG parts: Russia
Umesh Anand | TNN | Aug 28, 2002, 00:00 IST
MOSCOW: Faulty second-hand spares bought cheap by the Indian Air Force from dubious sources could be one of the reasons for MiG 21 fighter aircraft crashing, according to Andrei Y Belyaninov, the general-director of Rosoboronexport.Rosoboronexport is Russiaa™s nodal government-owned company for export of weaponry. The MiG 21, bought from Russia, is an ageing aircraft. Several crashes have taken place in recent years and pilots have lost their lives. The Indian Air Force has said that the crashes are the result of bird hits, technical snags and errors made by pilots.
Questions about the quality of MiG 21 spares have been raised by the Russians in the past. Belyaninov was, however, unsparing in his criticism of the system for purchasing spare parts. He was speaking to visiting Indian correspondents here.


"When India knows very well that there is only one source for the genuine spares, why does it call for tenders?" he asked.
He said that just 10 per cent of the spares came from fresh production in Russia. The rest were supplied by companies which were sourcing the spares from outdated stocks in Ukraine, Kazakhstan and other constituents of the former Soviet Union.

Ihave many parts of airforce parts ,if you need i can send list of parts.

Till the Soviet Union was in existence, these constituents depended on integrated weapon systems and supplies. After the breakup, the situation had changed. As independent countries, they continued to have stocks of weapons and spares, but Russia could not be held responsible for their quality.
Beliyaninov said arms suppliers had opened companies in these countries and were bidding for Indian orders.
As he held forth on the problem, Belyaninov became increasingly graphic on the quality of what was being accepted by India. "Many of these spares are merely painted over and spruced up, he said.
Asked whether Russia regarded substandard spares as the only reason for MiG 21 aircraft crashing in India, Belyaninov said he had no evidence to say so. But he was emphatic that poor quality spares should be regarded as one possible reason for the fighter aircraft crashing.

An official of the Indian embassy in Moscow, who happened to be present at the meeting, joined issue with Belyaninov and asked him whether he had hard proof that substandard parts were being purchased. Belyaninov shot back that he would show him the evidence he was looking for if he provided the records of purchases made in the past five years.


RELATED

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 02 May 2018 12:56

Philip wrote:https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/thrifty ... ng-1844415
Thrifty At 50: Pakistan Keeps Ageing Mirages Flying


"They have outlived their lives... after their overhauls (they) have become highly unreliable, we even met with lots of accidents," Lateef said.

The best option to replace them would be the Rafale, as neighbour and arch-rival India -- which has also flown and maintained Mirages for decades -- is doing, signing a deal with Dassault in 2016.



Its seems the Wagah Candle Kissing brigade and thier group of supporters and Political Leadership are not happy with the IAF getting Rafale cause it is capable aircraft giving Takleef to our enemies. They delayed the Rafale Purchase indefinitely when in power and oppose is when in opposition. Surely we have termites eating our nation from inside.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 02 May 2018 13:03

And another more detailed study of the crash record of the MIG-21 in a global perspective and Indian conditions. Also remember that it took 3 decades to decide about the AJT,which the AM La Fontaine committee studying the IAF's crashes were due to a lack of an AJT.

http://aviationkeeda.blogspot.in/2013/0 ... offin.html
MiG-21 :The Legend or The Flying Coffin?

Crash rate: MiG-21 vs Rivals
Of the 793 MiG-21s inducted into IAF since 1963, well over 350 have been lost in accidents, killing 170 pilots. However, labelling it a “flying coffin” is plain wrong. This is being done by misinformed (or incompetent) and under-pressure journalists. In fact, during my days at India Today magazine we stopped using such expressions when confronted with facts. The then IAF chief called us and said our cavalier use of the term “flying coffin” was causing trauma to the families of pilots flying the aircraft. He supplied us data to show the MiG-21 wasn’t a dangerous aircraft at all.
Former Air Chief Marshal A.Y. Tipnis has said the higher number of crashes (not to be confused with the crash rate) is because the “MiG-21s are most in numbers and in use operationally”.


Now let’s take a look at the MiG-21’s chief rivals. Between 1960 and 1987, the German air force flew nearly a thousand F-104s and lost 292. In a similar time frame, the Canadian air force lost over 100 of their 200 Starfighters. The highly experienced pilots of the British air force didn’t fare any better, crashing over a hundred of their 300 Lightnings over a period of 25 years.
Compared to this, India’s MiG-21 has a much better record. :)

Causes of crashes
As we have seen, 20 air forces around the world continue to stick with the MiG-21. MiGs are not tumbling out of the air in Ukraine, Czech Republic, Algeria, Finland or Bulgaria. China has cloned and flies over 700 of these fighters and has supplied 150 to Pakistan. Among these countries, India alone trains its pilots to Western standards. This involves intense peacetime training, which means potentially more accidents. A former air force chief has gone on record that he would rather lose pilots during training than during war.
But several other factors are involved in accidents. Let’s see which ones are directly responsible and which have only a minimal role.


India: A harsh environment

Tropical and crowded, India is an unforgiving environment for any aircraft. The hot air means aircraft engines produce less thrust and the wing produce less lift compared to similar aircraft flying in European skies. Sun baked runways are also known to impact landing safety. These are factors IAF pilots have to live with.
Bird hits are another huge factor in aircraft accidents over India. Most IAF bases are located near populated areas, where birds are a constant menace. It’s going to get worse before it gets better.

Economic collapse and spare shortages

It is true the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the chaos that followed played havoc with Russia’s command economy. The closure of Russia’s armaments factories stopped the free flow of spares from the country. Desperate to keep its main interceptor force flying, the IAF managed to get spares from East European countries, which were cannibalising their MiG-21s for cash.

Russian defence experts, including MiG officials, have blamed these grey market purchases for the IAF’s crashes. However, the argument has no legs because firstly, the IAF is one of the world’s most professional fighting forces; it will not put its pilots’ life at risk by such reckless purchases. Two, it was buying genuine spares from the standardised air forces of the former Warsaw Pact. The Russians backtracked when confronted with IAF data. However, it remains true that spare parts made by HAL are not as good as Russian ones.

*(Q:who ordered the spares, IAF or MOD? If the "tender" process was applied, as claimed in the earlier post, cheaper spares of arguable dubious quality may have been acquitred))

Arrival of modern aircraft in the IAF

The MiG-21s formed the backbone of the IAF in the 1960s and ’70s. But the situation changed with the arrival of newer aircraft, which drew the most experienced pilots from the MiG-21 squadrons. There was nothing wrong with it because that’s how the system is supposed to work. But the MiG-21 now became the jet that rookie pilots graduated to. In tandem with another factor, it spelled trouble for the IAF.

Training – out of kilter

Despite acquiring its first supersonic jet in 1963, the IAF did not get a jet trainer until 2004 because it took decades for the proposal to make its way through the defence procurement bureaucracy.
For close to 40 years rookie pilots went straight from propeller driven and subsonic trainers to the supersonic MiG-21. At a MAKS air show in Moscow, Russian test-pilot Andrey Shishov described how it felt flying a supersonic jet at 30,000 ft: “At a height of several thousand kilometres, a nine-unit strong G-force means you feel like you weigh nine times more than you really do, so not 75 kilos for example but 600-700 kg.”
In an article in Indian Aviation magazine, IAF Wing Commander K.S. Suresh says in air combat manoeuvres, inexperienced pilots flying the MiG-21 have got into trouble without realising it. When the aircraft develops a high rate of descent, it cannot be arrested with the power available. Worse, “there is no protest from the aircraft like severe shudder, wing rocking etc prevalent in other types of aircraft. This gives a feeling of well-being and a number of pilots did not recognise the danger in time to take recovery action or eject”.
Essentially, young pilots were pitchforked into an aerial meat grinder, resulting in a high loss rate from peacetime accidents.

Caught in the MiG’s crosshairs

More than half a century after its first flight, the MiG-21 packs a lethal punch. At the Cope India exercise held in 2004 at Gwalior, Indian pilots flying MiG-21 Bisons (upgraded with Russian Phazatron radar, Vympel R-73 missiles and the beyond visual range Vympel R-77 air-to-air missiles) blew away the F-15 and the F-16 fighters of the USAF on one-on-one as well as in mixed exercises. The USAF acknowledged the MiG-21 Bisons and Su-30MKIs were tough opponents.

In the next Cope India exercise in 2005 at Kalaikundi, Indian pilots operating the MiG-21s and Sukhois emerged victorious most of the time.
Kargil was another theatre where the MiG-21 showed it was still a threat. The Pakistan Air Force’s director of operations during the war acknowledged afterward that the GPS-assisted high-altitude bombing by the MiG-21, MiG-23BN and MiG-27 was a game changer. This is corroborated by aviation historian and author Pushpindar Singh in Himalayan Eagles: “…targeting pod imagery observed by IAF pilots in real time showed enemy troops abandoning their positions at the very sound of approaching fighters.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 02 May 2018 16:37

Philip wrote:
This is being done by misinformed (or incompetent) and under-pressure journalists. In fact, during my days at India Today magazine we stopped using such expressions when confronted with facts.


And yet the Journo goes on to say this....

Russian defence experts, including MiG officials, have blamed these grey market purchases for the IAF’s crashes. However, the argument has no legs because firstly, the IAF is one of the world’s most professional fighting forces; it will not put its pilots’ life at risk by such reckless purchases. Two, it was buying genuine spares from the standardised air forces of the former Warsaw Pact. The Russians backtracked when confronted with IAF data.

However, it remains true that spare parts made by HAL are not as good as Russian ones.

The last line above seems to be the Journo's own assertion. Has he furnished any data/proof to back it ?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 02 May 2018 16:42

From what I recollect from MOD statement from official COI most of Mig crashes are related to pilot error.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 02 May 2018 16:50

Vimarsha - The Role of IAF in Changing Security Environment by ACM BS Dhanoa PVSM AVSM YSM VM ADC


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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby jaysimha » 02 May 2018 18:26


shiv
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby shiv » 02 May 2018 19:23

Austin wrote:From what I recollect from MOD statement from official COI most of Mig crashes are related to pilot error.

I must add to this.

When confronted with a smashed aircraft in a million pieces, no flight data recorder and a dead pilot the pieces are reassembled to look for any detectable issues and correlated with communications, radar data if any and weather. If nothing else is found it becomes pilot error. Suresh had given some stats about what percentage were declared pilot error.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 02 May 2018 19:58

shiv wrote:
Austin wrote:From what I recollect from MOD statement from official COI most of Mig crashes are related to pilot error.

I must add to this.

When confronted with a smashed aircraft in a million pieces, no flight data recorder and a dead pilot the pieces are reassembled to look for any detectable issues and correlated with communications, radar data if any and weather. If nothing else is found it becomes pilot error. Suresh had given some stats about what percentage were declared pilot error.


The process of accident investigation has developed over the years and decades.

Outside experts are available and, if required, can be called and frequently they are called to help.

In most of the cases, they are able to make a clear finding.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Lalmohan » 02 May 2018 20:07

the Mig crashes had more than one cause I believe - i.e. some were faulty parts, others were junior pilots getting into difficulty related to inexperience and some were just plain bad luck

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 02 May 2018 20:24

Manish_P wrote:
Philip wrote:


And yet the Journo goes on to say this....

Russian defence experts, including MiG officials, have blamed these grey market purchases for the IAF’s crashes. However, the argument has no legs because firstly, the IAF is one of the world’s most professional fighting forces; it will not put its pilots’ life at risk by such reckless purchases. Two, it was buying genuine spares from the standardised air forces of the former Warsaw Pact. The Russians backtracked when confronted with IAF data.

However, it remains true that spare parts made by HAL are not as good as Russian ones.

The last line above seems to be the Journo's own assertion. Has he furnished any data/proof to back it ?


That's exactly why the russians are in such a shit state today.

They have lost their deeply embedded supply chains, materiel sources and also accesses to manufacturing facilities, design as well as manufacturing engineers and very skilled workmen who were part of the vast, widespread and erstwhile USSR MI complex.

That's also why they are unable to support the SUs, really effed up the repairs to the Vik and many other crucial systems are delayed and their asking prices have now really skyrocketed.

I personally know a lot of opportunistic Indian jokers who are traipsing around the former soviet union, trying to locate these supply sources. This is the source of the "grey" market stuff. It is an open secret that some enterprising locals have started making and selling what these jokers are so desperate to buy. Most of them are dilli based and entrenched in this shady "duplicate" market which unscrupulous sellers then sell to the govt depots.

There is an outstretched, grasping, slimy hand in every glove, in every office.

OTOH, many of these supply chains have simply been rolled up, and like the proverbial phoenix, risen from the ashes of their former selves, in brand new avatars, erasing all evidence to their former selves and making "market friendly" consumer products. These earlier, so called state enterprises have been surreptitiously privatized and govt "partners" are easy to find among the local baboo(n)s and other powerful officials providing both protection and access to shady markets.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 02 May 2018 20:28

Lalmohan wrote:the Mig crashes had more than one cause I believe - i.e. some were faulty parts, others were junior pilots getting into difficulty related to inexperience and some were just plain bad luck


Like I said earlier, it's all down to situational awareness.

If the shithole is looming really fast and you are out of options for that situation, simply punch out. Period.

That's what the russians always said to do.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby shiv » 02 May 2018 22:06

chetak wrote:
shiv wrote:I must add to this.

When confronted with a smashed aircraft in a million pieces, no flight data recorder and a dead pilot the pieces are reassembled to look for any detectable issues and correlated with communications, radar data if any and weather. If nothing else is found it becomes pilot error. Suresh had given some stats about what percentage were declared pilot error.


The process of accident investigation has developed over the years and decades.

Outside experts are available and, if required, can be called and frequently they are called to help.

In most of the cases, they are able to make a clear finding.

There was a nice story which I have related on BR before. One crash had no evident causative factor and would have been declared pilot error until someone noticed a reddish brown stain inside the engine. Analysis at IISc showed it to be bird blood proving it was a bird strike.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 02 May 2018 22:20

Austin wrote:From what I recollect from MOD statement from official COI most of Mig crashes are related to pilot error.




Spares were purchased from Eastern European air forces which had no more need. The Russians were in free fall and the supply chain had collapsed. And they needed orders. off course they will blame IAF for not buying spares from them. Its a rice bowl thing.

This leads us to pilot error.
See Wing Commander K. Suresh comments on why this happens. New pilots are unaware of the planes' handling characteristics.

I ask even if the jet trainer was there how would it prep the pilots to this aspect of the Mig 21?

The thing in Indian control was the procurement of jet trainers that caused the new pilots to fly Mig 21s.

This is the root cause of the crashes.

What we should probe is the reason why MoD did not purchase jet trainers for decades and who were the PMs at that time?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 02 May 2018 23:31

That is the core of the issue.In the above quoted reports, our MIG losses were below Western averages.It was the 3 decade delay in acquiring the AJT that was the root cause for most losses.Same with the HT-32.The acquisition of the PC-7 improved basic pilot training substantially.The Q now is whether we need an IJT or not ( if we make no progress with the IJT) and proceed to the Hawk directly.There is another option acquiring PC-21s which can simulate the characteristics of many fighters despite being a t'prop.

This is a good subject for debate as some air forces do not have an IJT .

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 03 May 2018 01:24

Philip wrote:That is the core of the issue.In the above quoted reports, our MIG losses were below Western averages.It was the 3 decade delay in acquiring the AJT that was the root cause for most losses.Same with the HT-32.The acquisition of the PC-7 improved basic pilot training substantially.The Q now is whether we need an IJT or not ( if we make no progress with the IJT) and proceed to the Hawk directly.There is another option acquiring PC-21s which can simulate the characteristics of many fighters despite being a t'prop.

This is a good subject for debate as some air forces do not have an IJT .

So you agree that this line of yours :"MIGs lost mainly due to poor quality of spares obtained from the grey market and not quite perfect manufacture by HAL" was incorrect? From the article you posted it seems to be little more than a Russian attempt to cover their own backsides. Remember that you brought in the Mig crashes into the discussion and proceeded to heap blame on HAL.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 03 May 2018 19:21

Pl read thoroughly the above quoted reports drawing from official info. There are several reasons, the main being lack of an AJT which was the report of the AM La Fontaine committee specially set up to inquire into IAF accidents.The AM later became air chief.As Ramanna said, it was dereliction of duty by successive govt, for 3 decades(!),not to have acquired an AJT , forcing rookie pilots to fly sophisticated fighters without first learning the ropes on a suitable jet trainer.There are other reasons given apart from grey market spares, Indian conditions, bird hits, poor quality of local manufacture, etc.Don't nit pick.

While we are now better off with the PC-7 and the Hawk, the absence of an IJT is a crucial factor as our obsolete and ancient Kirans are flying on a wing and a prayer.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 03 May 2018 19:43

Nachiket and Philp, Lets delve into the facts /reasons for the decades delay in acquiring the jet trainer.
I want the actual reason and not speculations.
Maybe talk to former IAF personnel.

Which were the candidates?
When was the selection made?
When was the recommendation forwarded to MoD?
Then what happened?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 03 May 2018 22:47

OK. Here is an example of how things go wrong with trainer aircraft procurement. Misfortunately this item was posted in the Military Aviation thread just yesterday....

Kartik wrote:Tough bargain may halt Rs 2000 crore IAF deal for 20 Hawks

A defence deal expected to cost over Rs 2,000 crore to buy 20 Hawk Advanced Jet Trainer planes is likely to be called off by the Air Force as the negotiations for it have been stuck for almost three years now over steep price hike by the vendors.

{What: 20 Hawk trainers at Rs. 200 crores i.e. Rs 100 crores for each plane in 2018. Why: Delay over three years about price negotiations.}

The Air Force is also not interested in the upgrade of its fleet of over 120 Hawk planes that were inducted into service after a deal with Britain in 2004. The HAL is offering to upgrade the Hawk fleet of the Air Force to Hawk India jets by adding combat capabilities, government sources told Mail Today.

"The benchmark price of each aircraft was around Rs 90 crore but the initial price offered by the vendors including the public sector Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) was more than double," the sources said.

"In the contract negotiations, the vendors have cut down the price but even now, the price offered is more than 60 per cent of what the defence ministry is willing to pay for the planes," they said
.

{Ok. So MoD expects price to be Rs. 90 crores. Initial price was double i.e. Rs. 180 crores. In negotiations the price was reduced to 60 percent of what MoD wants to pay i.e. Rs 90*1.6= Rs 144 crores. Now see the first lien of the report that the cost is Rs 2000 crores for 20 panes which works out to Rs. 100 crores! This is Rs. 10 crores over the base line of Rs 90 Crores. So what's going on? }


Another reason over which the deal may be called off is that due to government's directive for utilising the funds optimally, the priority of the ministry is to buy more of war fighting equipment rather than go in for systems that do not fit that bill, the sources said.


{While this valid for non-combat system, the jet trainer is the precursor to the combat system as it is used for training pilots for combat. this is wrong reason if its being put forth. We have seen how Mig 21s crash rate had contribution due to lack of jet trainers to transition the new pilots. So we see history repeating itself.}



On the newly-developed Hawk India jet showcased by HAL recently, sources said there was not much logic in going in for upgrade of IAF fleet of Hawk planes which have been inducted not long back. "The last of the Hawks were inducted only around three years ago in the force and the upgrades are not required at this moment," the sources said.

{OK. Can accept this reason to not upgrade the existing fleet. I think the offer was new Combat Hawks.}


The IAF had moved the proposal to buy these 20 planes from a British firm during the UPA regime as it wanted to replace the Kiran Mk 2 planes with the Hawk Advanced Jet Training jets to be equipped with smoking pots to fly with the Surya Kiran Aerobatic Team (SKAT).


{Here is the real reason for buying the 20 planes as it looks small order. The IAF wanted the 20 planes in UPA regime time to replace the Kirans for the acrobat team. Not for the training function. However one should recall the aerobat team is an essential flying capability. And is noted in the Arun Subramaniam's book}[/i

The contract for the last batch of 57 planes was done between India and the British firm in 2010 to help in the training programmes of the Air Force and the Navy to add to the existing fleet of 66 planes bought in 2004.

{i]{So IAF has 66+57 = 123 Hawks for training role. Don't know about attrition. Procurement in two phases 2004 and 2010.}



The deal for the 20 airplanes has gone through many problems earlier also as the file related to the procurement case had mysteriously gone missing from a department under the defence ministry in 2014 leading to a delay of more than a year in completing the lapsed process.

{Knowing UPA corruption track record, eg. Augusta helicopters, most likely there was a scam in these 20 planes overpricing and the file went missing!!!

Also note the price objections, the 'proper funds utilization", losing the file are form the MoD yet the report is IAF rejects the price!!!}





Philip, If you read between the lines the you see the problems for the decades long reluctance to buy the jet trainers even after so many crashes.
- Biggest is the drive the misuse of the objective to 'utilize the funds properly'.
This means more funds go for combat and non-combat even if essential will get relegated to bottom of priority pile.
- Then the interminable negotiations to reduce the price marginally.
Since 2010, the price of Aluminum had gone up quite a bit and then there is wage inflation.
In other words everything costs more as it is delayed. So how was the baseline price arrived at?
- The biggest is if UPA/Congress is in power as they will scam the contract to get party funds.
The double the price was most likely to line the pockets of the Congress if you see the timeline.
The vendor was willing to knock down the price by 40% is an indication of the mark-up.
But this is after three years. I think 100 percent would have gone to the politicians.

So buy your equipment when there is a nationalist government in power.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 10 May 2018 01:13

India aims to base IAF fighters on Andaman and Nicobar archipelago
http://www.janes.com/article/79950/indi ... rchipelago

The Indian Air Force (IAF) plans to permanently base fighter aircraft and other combat assets on the Andaman and Nicobar Islands off India’s east coast to enhance its presence and capabilities in the region. Official sources told Jane’s on 9 May that the IAF is extending and upgrading runways and the overall infrastructure at the Car Nicobar and nearby Campbell Bay air bases to station fighter aircraft such as Sukhoi Su-30MKIs and boost the country’s sole tri-service Andaman and Nicobar Command (ANC). They said the plan also aims to create a “credible” multi-service command to enhance combat efficiency, avoid asset duplication and optimise resources, before replicating it in other parts of the country in keeping with the intentions of the federal government in New Delhi.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 10 May 2018 11:36

Very true! The current regime should accelerate def. acquisitions , getting the CCS to authorise an emergency protocol for various items, which will cut through babudom's red tape.This was done for the urgently reqd. ammo stocks. However, the current economic squeeze, banks in bad shape with so many NPAs ,rising oil prices- thank Trump for that his Iran policy and the rupee steadily falling in value.

In fact my suspicion is that Trump's Iran policy is a huge scam, meant to heighten tensions in the ME which were subsiding thanks to the Syrian crisis settling down due to Russian intervention primarily .This has already seen an increase in oil prices which will benefit the principal oil exporters especially the Saudis.The strategy was in all probability worked out when the Saudi Clown Prince visited the White House not too long ago.The Saudi eco. crisis thanks to its bumbling in the Yemen requires a booster dose of filthy lucre.The US also gains being a manor exporter.Iran with sanctions imposed will suffer but the biggest gainers are the Sunni oily-garchs.

I doubt very much that the IAF will get a decision on any new aircraft type given the fast approaching elections which will be keenly fought.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 25 May 2018 05:16

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 9041025024 ---> An Indian Air Force Mig-27UPG. Note the new THALES Laser Ranger and Marked Target Seekers (LRMTS) which replaces the older KLEN system. It is also said that UPG variant has LITENING III and Vinten Vicon photo reconnaissance pod. Mig-27UPG has been upgraded with Tarang Mk 2 RWR.

Image

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 2521791495 ---> An Indian Air Force Mig-27 showing up its Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-6-30 which is a Russian 30mm gatling-style auto cannon and can fire 4,000 - 6,000 rounds/minute and is used for strafing and ground attack.

Image

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 25 May 2018 05:20

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 8480201728 ---> Indian Air Force Mi-35 Hind showing its under-wing weapons. The weapons are 9M114 Kokon Anti-Tank Guided Missile (it can carry 4), B-8V20A rocket pod which fires S-8 rockets and a UPK-23 gun pod (with guns removed). Old Mi-25s in service with IAF, had the 9M17MP Skorpion-P missile.

Image

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 25 May 2018 05:29

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 9072086017 ---> An Indian Air Force upgraded Mig-29UPG showing off its new features which has been highlighted in the picture.

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 6999104512 ---> It has a ELT-568 Advanced Jamming Pod , which is basically a dual-band self and mutual protection equipment designed to cope with today’s complex threat scenarios. It has a wide frequency coverage from E-J band and has a very high ERP to optimize jamming effectiveness.

Image

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 4522052609 ---> Indian Air Force Mig-29UPG has 20SPM-01 chaff and flare dispenser control system and BVP-80-26DK (2 each) chaff and flare dispensers. Chaff and flares are defensive mechanisms to defend against enemy attacks effectively.

Image

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 25 May 2018 05:36

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 0505206784 ---> Indian Air Force Ground Crew installing a Matra R.550 Magic 2 missile on a Jaguar IS overwing pylon. This is a strange concept with Jaguars, as these overwing pylons helped ramp up missile carrying capability however it was a tedious task, with hell lot maintenance.

Image

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 30 May 2018 05:54

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 9040008192 ---> Indian Air Force Mig-29UPG of No. 47 Squadron IAF known as "Black Archers". They were raised on 18 December 1959, where they were equipped with Dassault Ouragan but later exchanged them for MiG-21FLs. They were later equipped with MiG-29 in 1987.

Image

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 30 May 2018 10:28

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 9072086017 ---> An Indian Air Force upgraded Mig-29UPG showing off its new features which has been highlighted in the picture.

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 6999104512 ---> It has a ELT-568 Advanced Jamming Pod , which is basically a dual-band self and mutual protection equipment designed to cope with today’s complex threat scenarios. It has a wide frequency coverage from E-J band and has a very high ERP to optimize jamming effectiveness.

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 4522052609 ---> Indian Air Force Mig-29UPG has 20SPM-01 chaff and flare dispenser control system and BVP-80-26DK (2 each) chaff and flare dispensers. Chaff and flares are defensive mechanisms to defend against enemy attacks effectively.


29UPG looks semi-pregnant but hopefully the additional fuel in spine will add to its long reach.

I was expecting they would use a broad band jammer pod below both the Tails. Instead of single ELT-569 ,plus MAWS and Towed Decoys on 29UPG and M2K.

MAWS is an absolute must in todays environment and needs to be deployed Fleet wide on Fighters and Transport Aircraft/helicopters the latter needs to be fitted with DIRCM too

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Gyan » 30 May 2018 22:10

Inspite of extensive use of DIRCM in Syria, our IAF seems to be negligent on this score.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 30 May 2018 22:30

Rakesh,
The AAM for the Jaguars was an afterthought.
The plane is a strike plane and not designed for air combat role.
The fact that short range AAM are fitted shows its a Samson option for close combat.

The Brits make a virtue of desperate jugaaads and will have a number of enthusiast writers going wah, wah.
And how clever of the British to come up with this 'fix!'

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 30 May 2018 23:35

The overhead Aam was an iaf innovation for which we paid royalty to brits because of way contract was written !

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 31 May 2018 00:04

The whole Jaguar deal was a royalty to Rajiv Gandhi.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 31 May 2018 00:09

Ramana-ji, my fault. I should have made it clear.

I am just copying the quote from the twitter link. Those are not my comments in the pictures I post.



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