Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 29 Mar 2020 21:25

Wokay, question for the gurus, which weapon is the Vajra armed with at 1:57? I assume the outer ones are IR MICA, but the bigger "Kh" looking beauties? Crystal Maze also seen at the start. And I am in total awe of Abhishek's videos. Superb job.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 29 Mar 2020 22:48

Matra Super 530
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_530

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Apr 2020 21:32

https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/124 ... 01056?s=20 ---> DARE-BEL Electronic Warfare suite for MiG-29UPG.

Specifics:
• Active Phased Array steering with narrow beams fr pinpoint threat jamming
• Jamming: 6-18 GHz, DFRM based jam
• 2 in 1 [Warning & Jamming]
• Radar Warning: 1-18 GHz; DR based
• Wide Band Receiver
• Narrow Band Receiver options

https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/124 ... 62976?s=20 ----> From DARE's Brochure, EW Suite.

https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/124 ... 64448?s=20 ---> My edit from 2018. Lets put these two slides side by side.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 06 Apr 2020 02:15

What is the status of the Uttam AESA - we hear cryptic News about success here and there. Someone should write a comprehensive update.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 06 Apr 2020 14:42

Remember reading that IAF M2Ks didn't have all the fuselage hardpoints fitted unlike French M2K. Any idea during upgrade if this feature was incorporated? I am assuming that IAF birds prior to upgrade had the structures required to support hard point but possible wiring or something in software missing. So hoping that after recent upgrade, either the required hardware & software changes were made to open up all hardpoints.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 06 Apr 2020 14:43

MeshaVishwas wrote:Wokay, question for the gurus, which weapon is the Vajra armed with at 1:57? I assume the outer ones are IR MICA, but the bigger "Kh" looking beauties? Crystal Maze also seen at the start. And I am in total awe of Abhishek's videos. Superb job.

Some of the HUD & missile firing sequences in the above video are from a game called DCS.

chola · Post by **chola** » 06 Apr 2020 14:47

mody wrote:
Rahul M wrote:>> read on IRDW

That's your first mistake. Second is to discuss it on brf. Idrw is not kosher on brf. Please don't link to it or post/discuss stuff from it.
--------------
mody, the engine thing might not be entirely khayali pulao. Not the epe but as I posted in the Mk2 thread, we are in discussions on licence manufacturing the 414. As per Gp. Capt. Thakur.
Rahul, the khayali pulao was mostly for getting the GE-F414 engines on the Mig-29s. The size and weight of the engine is almost comparable with the RD-33 engines. Imagine getting the GE engines on the Fulcrums. The performance would be out of the world. The thrust to weight ratio would be unreal. Especially if matted on the newer lighter airframes. For us if we can get them on the Mig-29Ks, then it would solve some of the issues that we are facing. The engines are much more reliable and the maintenance requirement would be much lower. The engines have been used with the F-18s on carriers for a long time. Plus the extra thrust would solve the issue of payload when taking off from carriers. Also, the GE engine is more frugal as compared to the RD-33s and hence the on station time would also be improved. For the IAF Mig-29UPG, with the humpback design, the internal fuel capacity has already been increased. With a less fuel guzzling engine, the range or on station time would not remain a limitation for the Mig-29s. That pretty much takes care of most of the short comings of the Mig-29s.
The only question is, if this khayali pulao, can ever become a reality.

I like the idea! But unlikely Unkil would allow the export or licensing of the F414 for any russkie jet.

srai · Post by **srai** » 06 Apr 2020 16:27

Zynda wrote:Remember reading that IAF M2Ks didn't have all the fuselage hardpoints fitted unlike French M2K. Any idea during upgrade if this feature was incorporated? I am assuming that IAF birds prior to upgrade had the structures required to support hard point but possible wiring or something in software missing. So hoping that after recent upgrade, either the required hardware & software changes were made to open up all hardpoints.

Vayu Shakti 2019

Nine hard points

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 06 Apr 2020 17:33

srai wrote:Nine hard points

Thanks for clarifying...

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 07 Apr 2020 02:54

Zynda wrote:Remember reading that IAF M2Ks didn't have all the fuselage hardpoints fitted unlike French M2K. Any idea during upgrade if this feature was incorporated? I am assuming that IAF birds prior to upgrade had the structures required to support hard point but possible wiring or something in software missing. So hoping that after recent upgrade, either the required hardware & software changes were made to open up all hardpoints.

Can see them with MICA missiles in the pics that Vishnu Som posted on Twitter.

Twitter link

This image shows a Mirage-2000TI with the fuselage mounted hardpoints carrying MICA missiles and a Crystal Maze on the centerline hardpoint.

Can see a non-upgraded Mirage-2000TH with the 4 fuselage mounted hardpoints. So it isn't true that the Mirage-2000H/THs didn't have the fuselage hardpoints.

Image link

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 07 Apr 2020 04:26

They had the HP's right from the start. But before the MICA came along they could carry only 4 AAMs since the Super-530D and Magic II could only be rail launched not ejector launched. The fuselage HP's were only for a-to-g ordnance and LDP etc.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 07 Apr 2020 10:14

mody wrote: Rahul, the khayali pulao was mostly for getting the GE-F414 engines on the Mig-29s. The size and weight of the engine is almost comparable with the RD-33 engines. Imagine getting the GE engines on the Fulcrums. The performance would be out of the world. The thrust to weight ratio would be unreal. Especially if matted on the newer lighter airframes. For us if we can get them on the Mig-29Ks, then it would solve some of the issues that we are facing. The engines are much more reliable and the maintenance requirement would be much lower. The engines have been used with the F-18s on carriers for a long time. Plus the extra thrust would solve the issue of payload when taking off from carriers. Also, the GE engine is more frugal as compared to the RD-33s and hence the on station time would also be improved. For the IAF Mig-29UPG, with the humpback design, the internal fuel capacity has already been increased. With a less fuel guzzling engine, the range or on station time would not remain a limitation for the Mig-29s. That pretty much takes care of most of the short comings of the Mig-29s.
The only question is, if this khayali pulao, can ever become a reality.

Short answer is no. Integrating a new engine on an existing aircraft is a non-trivial task. It will take time, money and collaboration between two different OEMs which in this case would be impossible considering one is American and the other Russian. You need a really good reason to embark on such a resource intensive task.

And why fix something which is not broken? The Mig-29 has zero issues with T:W ratio. That is the one thing it has never ever had a problem with. It is the already the most agile fighter in the IAF fleet. The problems with the Mig-29k also have little to do with the engines. The K already has the RD-33MK engines and the IAF upgrade included new RD-33 Series 3 engines.

The only thing the Mig-29 needs now once the integration of the new D-29 ECM suite is complete will be Astra integration, which I suspect will follow in due course. Otherwise it is a very capable air-to-air platform in all respects.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 07 Apr 2020 14:25

The coming year might good for the IAF

1) Retirement of Type 75 Mig 21 Bis
2) Induction of 12 Rafales
3) Induction of 12 Su-30 MKI's
4) Induction of some of 21 Mig 29's
5) M-2000 upgrade to T/TI standard should be more or less complete
6) Induction of 12-15 LCA TEJAS FOC.

Hope the MK1A contracts, more TEJAS, More Upgraded Su-30MKI, 36 more Rafale takes place.

srai · Post by **srai** » 07 Apr 2020 18:12

Zynda wrote:
srai wrote:Nine hard points
Thanks for clarifying...

94 store configurations

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 08 Apr 2020 03:31

srai wrote:
Zynda wrote: Thanks for clarifying...
94 store configurations

Can clearly see 3 MICA missiles loaded on 3 under-fuselage hardpoints in that image, plus 1 LDP on the fourth under-fuselage hardpoint. That confirms that the IAF Mirage-2000I's can carry 4 MICA under-fuselage if required.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 08 Apr 2020 03:38

Kartik wrote: Can clearly see 3 MICA missiles loaded on 3 under-fuselage hardpoints in that image, plus 1 LDP on the fourth under-fuselage hardpoint. That confirms that the IAF Mirage-2000I's can carry 4 MICA under-fuselage if required.

I don't know why this was in question in the first place.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 08 Apr 2020 05:26

Because someone asked the question and there are no images of Mirage-2000Is carrying MICA missiles on the aft under-fuselage hardpoints.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 09 Apr 2020 18:46

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12480 ... 81057?s=20 ---> 1 Versus 1. It all begins here: Battle of the gladiators. Young combat pilots adapt to the most vicious aerial maneuvers fighting against an adversary with similar potential. MiG-29 Fulcrum is the most agile combat aircraft of all time. The rapidity of combat is truly incredible.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12480 ... 01600?s=20 ---> A sublime moment captured on the lens of Deb Rana. The Fulcrums are typically armed with multiple R-73E Archer Close-Combat Missiles & employ their radar + HMTDS of off-bore sighting, tracking & eventual kill. The missile itself can maneuver through 90 degrees to attain a kill.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 09 Apr 2020 18:48

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12480 ... 88609?s=20 --->

2 Brothers. "Cover my tail, I'm going in." Combat aircraft fly & fight in pairs. A patrol/fighting/stacked formation that provides tail cover, frontal cover & scope for cooperative maneuvering. Dissimilar payloads & configs often.

"Trust your wingman."

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 09 Apr 2020 18:56

Lovely photos.

Waited so many years to see photo number 2.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 12 Apr 2020 00:55

Interesting viewing (sorry if posted earlier):
Ex-IAF & army person talking about shortages in IAF numbers
2 track procurement (1: upgrades; 2: new aircraft)
new aircraft procurement not going well
Ex-Jaguar poilet saying not good to upgrade Jaguars
resting a known fact ie. no choice but to to buy Mig29's

khan · Post by **khan** » 12 Apr 2020 01:29

VinodTK wrote:Interesting viewing (sorry if posted earlier):
Ex-IAF & army person talking about shortages in IAF numbers
2 track procurement (1: upgrades; 2: new aircraft)
new aircraft procurement not going well
Ex-Jaguar poilet saying not good to upgrade Jaguars
resting a known fact ie. no choice but to to buy Mig29's

One of the guests brought up a good point, of the IAF assets, half the squadrons are Jaguar, Mig-27 and Mig-21 - which is very thought provoking to me.

Apart from the Mig-21 (which is a decent point interceptor), how good/survivable are the Jaguars & Mig-27?

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 Apr 2020 04:35

^^^
MiG-27 -> All retired

MiG-21 -> only the 6 x MiG-21 Bison squadrons remain; some twin-seaters remain. All scheduled to be retired by 2024/2025.

Jaguar (Darin 2/3) -> 5/6 squadrons. Half to be retired by 2030.

In short, pilots know the strengths and weaknesses of each platform. Combat tactics have been developed accordingly. Apart from that, upgrades have included EW/ECM with SPJ.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 12 Apr 2020 08:00

khan wrote:
VinodTK wrote:Interesting viewing (sorry if posted earlier):
Ex-IAF & army person talking about shortages in IAF numbers
2 track procurement (1: upgrades; 2: new aircraft)
new aircraft procurement not going well
Ex-Jaguar poilet saying not good to upgrade Jaguars
resting a known fact ie. no choice but to to buy Mig29's
One of the guests brought up a good point, of the IAF assets, half the squadrons are Jaguar, Mig-27 and Mig-21 - which is very thought provoking to me.

Apart from the Mig-21 (which is a decent point interceptor), how good/survivable are the Jaguars & Mig-27?

This narrative of LCA production should stop. With all due respects to these three they betray a mindset that is not in touch with some of today's realities. The host is useless and asks no hard questions.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 12 Apr 2020 08:01

We have a choice. Induct more LCAs.

khan · Post by **khan** » 12 Apr 2020 09:09

srai wrote:^^^
MiG-27 -> All retired

MiG-21 -> only the 6 x MiG-21 Bison squadrons remain; some twin-seaters remain. All scheduled to be retired by 2024/2025.

Jaguar (Darin 2/3) -> 5/6 squadrons. Half to be retired by 2030.

In short, pilots know the strengths and weaknesses of each platform. Combat tactics have been developed accordingly. Apart from that, upgrades have included EW/ECM with SPJ.

Pilot ju-jitsu notwithstanding, even plain vanilla LCA Mk.1A, is more than an adequate replacement for all these. I don't know why they are even bothering having long intellectual studies when the answer stares at them in the face. Its not like they will have too many squadrons if they induct (say) 200 Mk.1A's instead of 80 something.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 12 Apr 2020 12:00

LCA is far more multirole than Jags - and not underpowered.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 12 Apr 2020 20:22

The contract sigining between IAF & HAL is pending cabinet approval, that means 2 more steps.
Based on the current experience the first aircrafts can be delivered about 12 to 14 months after signing the contract. If the contract is signed in Q2 or Q3 of 2020, IAF can expect to see the first batch of the newly ordered plane towards the end of Q4 2021; however if the old PSU trick to work overtime comes into play then Q1 2022.

All the above will be possible if the cabinet approves the procurement asap, with COVID 19 messing-up the economy the bureaucrats might de-prioritize the purchase.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 12 Apr 2020 20:59

Till FY 2021-22 remaining 23 nos Tejas mk1 is expected.

Tejas mk1a is only from FY 2022-23.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 14 Apr 2020 01:50

srai wrote: MiG-21 -> only the 6 x MiG-21 Bison squadrons remain; some twin-seaters remain. All scheduled to be retired by 2024/2025.

I don't think this is completely true. Not all the Bis aircraft were upgraded to Bison standard. And I have not seen a news item about the Bis being retired yet. Last one we had was news about the M/MF versions being all retired. Some squadrons must still be flying the Bis. I believe No. 26 Warriors based at Pathankot is one of them. Not sure about others, if any.

srai · Post by **srai** » 14 Apr 2020 07:57

nachiket wrote:
srai wrote: MiG-21 -> only the 6 x MiG-21 Bison squadrons remain; some twin-seaters remain. All scheduled to be retired by 2024/2025.
I don't think this is completely true. Not all the Bis aircraft were upgraded to Bison standard. And I have not seen a news item about the Bis being retired yet. Last one we had was news about the M/MF versions being all retired. Some squadrons must still be flying the Bis. I believe No. 26 Warriors based at Pathankot is one of them. Not sure about others, if any.

That could be possible. Plans were to retire non-Bisons by 2019.

A report from 2013: MiG-21bis likely to serve IAF until 2019

...

The Defence Ministry had stated that the Mig-21bis would be decommissioned in 2017. However, there has been nearly three-year delay in Tejas programme and the Air Force is yet to give operational clearance to it.

According to IAF chief Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne, India purchased 874 MiG-21s of various modifications since 1964. Of them, 264 are still flying. The MiG-21bis’ super Kopyo multimode radar system and French-made Totem 221G ring-laser gyro aiming-navigation system were sufficient for the Air Force to keep using the MiG-2bis until 2019.

...

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Apr 2020 08:30

We would certainly keep the best of the lot in reserves. Every unit is an asset in wartime.

mody · Post by **mody** » 14 Apr 2020 14:10

I hope given the current economic downturn, the government tells the IAF that MMRCA program will have to be delayed or scrapped and IAF asks for additional 2-3 squadrons of LCA MK1A instead, to tide over the aircraft shortfall. Ask HAL to increase production rate to 24 planes per annum and reduce the price even further, to account for the increased quantity. One can at least hope!

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Apr 2020 14:43

Mody,when an M2K upgrade is $50+M compared with just $13M for a 29, and full Jag upgrades incl. new engines were found to be exorbitant,your point about extra new MK-1As make sense.A brand new aircraft, costing around as much as the M2K upgrade able to carrythe same ordnance as larger med. fighters ,and range shortcomings resolved with in-flight refuelling ability. Extra aircraft improves the local logistic supply chain too,eventually bringing down costs .

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 14 Apr 2020 15:32

Philip wrote:Mody,when an M2K upgrade is $50+M compared with just $13M for a 29, and full Jag upgrades incl. new engines were found to be exorbitant,your point about extra new MK-1As make sense.A brand new aircraft, costing around as much as the M2K upgrade able to carrythe same ordnance as larger med. fighters ,and range shortcomings resolved with in-flight refuelling ability. Extra aircraft improves the local logistic supply chain too,eventually bringing down costs .

the amerikis have deliberately priced the new engines for the jags at a cost unacceptable to us because they are openly cartelizing and pushing the tired and jaded teens as a necessary and almost imperative buy for India.

a placatory trump, for once trying to stay on the right side of the ameriki deep state, have together decided to screw India while the going is good because they all know that no one else in the whole wide world will buy such obselete junk.

India has resisted so far but there are some rough roads as well as troubled times ahead as the COVID slowdown kicks in and jobs are lost in many ameriki states. Many a senator/congressman will be up for re election and thus eager to keep factories and industrial plants in their home states and districts humming

srin · Post by **srin** » 14 Apr 2020 22:44

As per wiki, Jaguars and Mig-27s are supersonic (~M1.1) at low altitudes. Is Tejas also supersonic capable at low altitudes ? (saw some references that it is supersonic at all altitudes).

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 14 Apr 2020 22:50

Yes, it is.

srin · Post by **srin** » 15 Apr 2020 16:08

^^^
That is really awesome. As per the wiki, even the M2K isn't supersonic at low altitude.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 15 Apr 2020 16:24

Supersonic at low altitude was very relavent before look down shoot down radars and Aircraft could hide in ground clutter, the intercepting aircraft will have to come at reasonably low altitude to try and intercept such aircraft and since early IR missiles were mostly hitting the ground at such low altitudes, Guns had to be used. So aircraft such as SU-7B were not easy to intercept int he 1971 war. Since the late 80's/90's with the proliferation of Manpads and look down shoot down radars, its no longer so relevant unless you want to sneek in with AEW/AWACS aircraft around.

khan · Post by **khan** » 15 Apr 2020 17:26

My understanding is, in today’s environment, high & fast is better because air to air missiles can be launched with more initial energy (potential & keinetic) thereby giving it a longer range. Low flying planes are mostly sitting ducks in this environment.

I can see low supersonic flight make a comeback with low observable aircraft where ground clutter could help hide the aircraft - but IMO it won’t work with Tejas.