Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 25 Aug 2020 22:08

India’s answer to China-backed Thai Canal plan is a huge military upgrade in islands
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... wm4LN.html
25 August 2020

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 28 Aug 2020 05:18

India speeds up work on setting up Air Defence Command.

India has accelerated work on setting up an Air Defence Command to enhance military synergy and optimally utilise the resources of the armed forces, and it is likely to come up in October, people familiar with the developments said on Thursday.

Air defence refers to protecting the military’s assets from aerial threats such as the enemy’s fighter planes and missiles and the new Command --- likely to be headquartered in Allahabad --- will control the air defence resources of all the three services. It will be headed by a three-star air marshal, the officials said.

After taking over as the country’s first chief of defence staff on December 31, 2019, General Bipin Rawat had asked top officials of Headquarters Integrated Defence Staff (IDS) to prepare a proposal to create an Air Defence Command as part of the military’s theaterisation plans.

Theaterisation refers to placing specific units of the army, the navy and the air force under a theatre commander. Such commands come under the operational control of an officer from any of the three services, depending on the function assigned to that command.

The government expects Rawat to bring about jointness among the three services by 2022. One of the key objectives behind jointness, or jointmanship, is the setting up of theatre commands for the best use of military resources to fight future battles.

The air defence systems in the Indian arsenal include the indigenous Akash, the Israeli SpyDer, and Soviet-origin Pechora, OSA-AK and the shoulder-fired Igla. India is also pushing Russia to speed up the delivery of S-400 Triumf air defence missile systems following border tensions with China in eastern Ladakh.

India is looking at creating a distinct theatre command for Jammu & Kashmir, and integrating the western and eastern naval commands to create a Peninsular Command, as previously reported by Hindustan Times.

India could have up to five theatres to address the country’s security requirements, and the new structures could start rolling out in two years.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 28 Aug 2020 08:48

^^^ Finally!! This needed to be done a decade ago!

RajaRudra · Post by **RajaRudra** » 28 Aug 2020 15:08

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 800808.cms

The sources said Defense Minister Rajnath Singh has already held a number of internal meetings on hosting the mega event. It was decided that the event will be hosted while taking maximum precaution against the corona virus pandemic," said a source. Since its inception in 1996, Bengaluru has been hosting the event. The sources said a significant number of global defense majors and big investors are expected to participate in the event besides official delegations from several countries. The defense ministry plans to showcase its initiatives in promoting India's defense manufacturing at the event. The government has unveiled a number of policy initiatives in the last few months with an aim to boost domestic defense production. On August 9, the defense minister announced that India will stop import of 101 weapons and military platforms like transport aircraft, light combat helicopters, conventional submarines, cruise missiles and sonar systems by 2024.

dinesh_kimar · Post by **dinesh_kimar** » 28 Aug 2020 20:47

Shri Rajnath Singh recently flagged off the 150th Dornier Do-228 aircraft.

Main customer has been the IAF , for liaison duties and IN for surveillance.

Hope HAL take a good hard look at the bounty in their hands and improve the product, on lines of the RUAG Aerospace modification, or a desi Do-328 transport to replace / complement AN-32 (our BRF stalwarts, who in recent times have gone quiet, know for decades now that the Do-328 shares the same wing).

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 31 Aug 2020 00:56

https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/130 ... 63841?s=20 ---> Taiwan is planning for years to retire their Mirage-2000 fleet due to high maintenance cost of them. In picture, one ROCAF Mirage-2000 flying with four MICA RF and two R.550 Magic.

https://twitter.com/gurugaurav/status/1 ... 11808?s=20 ---> Even if Taiwan gives these jets for free to the IAF the Ministry of External Affairs will ensure we decline the offer because it will really upset China. That's the kind of world we live in as of today.

https://twitter.com/daeroplate/status/1 ... 00193?s=20 ---> Sensitivities, nuances, optics...everything will be catered to except hard national interests.

https://twitter.com/siriharusha/status/ ... 49222?s=20 ---> Should acquire them for the spares at least, even if they are not airworthy.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Sep 2020 22:02

Remember the recent hue and cry over the 21 MiG-29s being acquired from Russia? Well retired IAF pilot Sameer Joshi Sir has provided some info. The text highlighted in red is mine. Happy to be corrected.

KaranM will be best to decipher Joshi Sir's tweets below.

https://twitter.com/joe_sameer/status/1 ... 37024?s=20 ---> The additional purchase of 21 MiG-29UPG from Russia will fill a critical void in numbers for the Indian Air Force. AESA radar, GA (ground attack) capability, LR (long range) missiles, new engines, mid-air refueling will help the most advanced MiG-29 variant hold its own in India’s neighbourhood against PAF/PLAAF threats.

https://twitter.com/joe_sameer/status/1 ... 07108?s=20 ---> A lot of queries on AESA. AESA has been asked for per my info. Lets see what is delivered. (If true, then will the other MiG-29UPGs also get the AESA?)

https://twitter.com/priyankdixit/status ... 28258?s=20 ---> Sir..Zuk-AE, RD-33 MK, RVV-AE takes it closer to the MiG-35. HOTAS, Digital fly-by-wire?

https://twitter.com/joe_sameer/status/1 ... 15041?s=20 ---> That's why my worry is Priyank, that the AESA might be barred along with some other upgrades. (Interesting....)

https://twitter.com/MobiusOne9743/statu ... 17024?s=20 ---> Sir, Zhuk AE?

https://twitter.com/joe_sameer/status/1 ... 68546?s=20 ---> A version of Zhuk, yes.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 02 Sep 2020 22:14

Rakesh wrote:Remember the recent hue and cry over the 21 MiG-29s being acquired from Russia? Well retired IAF pilot Sameer Joshi Sir has provided some info. The text highlighted in red is mine. Happy to be corrected.

KaranM will be best to decipher Joshi Sir's tweets below.

Not Karan M but will say that this aesa and rd33mk upgrade is very very unlikely on the 29a/b airframes. Afaik no such upgrade had been tested, let alone fielded by the Russians UNLESS these were M airframes to begin with.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Sep 2020 22:17

Zhuk AME - approximately, 33% more range than the baseline Zhuk M2E (assuming same target RCS) as part of our first UPG plus R-77-1 missiles.
https://www.airrecognition.com/index.ph ... -2019.html

If we can get this and integrate it w/D-29 (will take time), this is a very potent aircraft. Remember they will also have Astra and will add the ODL later.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 02 Sep 2020 22:27

^that's good news indeed. Wonder if India is the launch customer for the aesa radar that the article talks about.

dinesh_kimar · Post by **dinesh_kimar** » 02 Sep 2020 22:28

^ Saar, happy to be corrected on this one.

The IAF uses Mig 29 mainly as air superiority or Top Cover escort, not as a credible Ground Attack platform (i know its technically multirole, but no one uses it as such. Russia, for eg. uses the Su-25 for GA duties).

There have been no instances of Mig 29 doing bombing trails in Ironfist, for instance. (unlike the Su-30 MKI)

Perhaps, more Mig 29 will free up more Mirages for attack, or convert some of the Mirage missions to Jaguar / Mig 21 / LCA Tejas missions.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 02 Sep 2020 22:35

The upgraded 29s are fully capable of ground attacks using both A2S missiles as well as precision guided and lgbs.

Note that the baaz upgrade gives it the same radar and sensor package as the Navy's 29s, which you will see with the occasional a2s munitions. And they have demoed this in vayushakti:

The IAF also deployed the upgraded MiG-29 fighter jet in an air-to-ground role during the exercise.

https://zeenews.india.com/india/2019-va ... 81077.html

titash · Post by **titash** » 03 Sep 2020 01:41

dinesh_kimar wrote:^ Saar, happy to be corrected on this one.

The IAF uses Mig 29 mainly as air superiority or Top Cover escort, not as a credible Ground Attack platform (i know its technically multirole, but no one uses it as such. Russia, for eg. uses the Su-25 for GA duties).

There have been no instances of Mig 29 doing bombing trails in Ironfist, for instance. (unlike the Su-30 MKI)

Perhaps, more Mig 29 will free up more Mirages for attack, or convert some of the Mirage missions to Jaguar / Mig 21 / LCA Tejas missions.

Capable of ground attack and optimized for ground attack are two different things. The legacy MiG-29A could carry 4x 500kg bombs for secondary attack missions. Effectiveness? your guess is as good as mine.

The fighter is not aerodynamically built for strafing runs or deploying rocket pods / iron bombs / TV guided missiles etc. at low altitude. It's not going to be used for SEAD/DEAD/low level interdiction. Pretty sure it lacks high quality redundant navigation & Terrain Following / Terrain Avoidance systems

What it can probably do now with the Zhuk-ME radar's A2G/Anti-Shipping modes is launch stand-off missiles such as KH-35, Kh-31 (lite) that have a terminal active homing mechanism. Fire & Forget from a long range. IF (big IF) it can deploy the Litening pod, it will gain LGB capability. But why would you deploy a high power agile fighter like the MiG-29 in that role when there are enough Mirages/Tejas MK1s to go around? It's probably a udeful capability to have in reserve but not a primary role

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 03 Sep 2020 05:07

While the upgraded Baaz will have better A2G capability than the older ones, it is highly unlikely that it will be the first or even second choice platform in the IAF for A2G missions. We have several squadrons of Jaguars, M2k's and MKI's all of which are highly potent A2G platforms and are getting all the new PGM's integrated with them. Plus we have the Tejas coming in which has already proved its A2G credentials.

IMHO the IAF will use the Mig-29 for what it does best - air superiority. Its not like we have a surfeit of A2A fighters at the moment with the squadron numbers hovering around 30. With the new radar and avionics, missiles, additional fuel, D-29 jammer and the Mig-29's unmatched kinematic performance this will be an incredibly potent A2A bird for both BVR and WVR engagements. That itself is enough to want more of these in service if we can get them at a reasonable price and in reasonable time. A2G capability is really beside the point.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 03 Sep 2020 09:45

nachiket wrote:IMHO the IAF will use the Mig-29 for what it does best - air superiority. Its not like we have a surfeit of A2A fighters at the moment with the squadron numbers hovering around 30. With the new radar and avionics, missiles, additional fuel, D-29 jammer and the Mig-29's unmatched kinematic performance this will be an incredibly potent A2A bird for both BVR and WVR engagements. That itself is enough to want more of these in service if we can get them at a reasonable price and in reasonable time. A2G capability is really beside the point.

With what long-range missiles with the Baaz execute such feats in face of stand-off AMRAAM barrages, saar? Have the upgraded Mig-29s received the ability to fire western or home-made AAMs?

The days of unmatched kinematic performance are rapidly receding in the face of very-high maneuvering missiles, no? The Mig-29 would have performed well in the 1980s and 1990s. But unless it is upgraded with western or Indian radars and weapons, it will rapidly become like the vampires of 1965.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 03 Sep 2020 09:47

Fact remains that when the IAF needs to gets its hands dirty, it relies on western aircraft and A2G weapons in its inventory. The Mirage-2000s, the Netra and the western standoff weapons.

Why else the over-the-top drama for the arrival of the handful of Rafales?

I expect the LCA to be a much more powerful weapon system than the granddaddy Mig-29s (even with the upgrade). Too much generational difference despite the kinematic show put on by the twin-smokers.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 03 Sep 2020 09:48

Yet IAF is buying 21 Mig-29s and holding off the 83 Mk1A order to assure that they will be further delayed - perhaps then ask to get 83 MK2 instead.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 03 Sep 2020 09:50

Vivek K wrote:Yet IAF is buying 21 Mig-29s and holding off the 83 Mk1A order to assure that they will be further delayed - perhaps then ask to get 83 MK2 instead.

Are we sure the 21 Mig-29s is not a desperate buy in the face of dwindling fleet numbers? Would the IAF buy more Mig-29s given a choice of other current generation choice of aircraft on the market?

Not buying LCAs in bulk two years ago is an utter and complete scandal. Why are the 83 LCAs still in limbo?

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 03 Sep 2020 09:58

I agree - the over the top celebrations for mere 3 Rafales you're right about IAF feeling the need to re-arm. I can bet that behind the scenes, IAF brass is working on some import and are holding back MK1A to have the money to pay for it. Having successfully delayed LCA induction on flimsy grounds like IFR (for a force with only 6 refuellers) they are using China as a pretext to get in a Western fighter - F21/Rafale or something else. They have experience with these, EF, F18, Gripen from the MMRCA nautanki. The 83 Mk1A order will probably be sacrificed at the alter of the new entrant.

I think that the LCA is dead in the water. To get DRDO support - they're paying lip service to the LCA. This is Arjunesque!

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 03 Sep 2020 10:00

I do think more Rafales will be ordered before we get the 83 LCAs. I doubt even the IAF will be brash enough to propose yet another imported fighter type from the global market in the midst of all this.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 03 Sep 2020 10:01

BTW, I should remind everyone that while the 83 LCAs await orders, the IAF is still flying Mig-21 Bisons against top-of-the-line F-16s+AMRAAMs.

The clock continues to tick...

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 03 Sep 2020 10:42

vivek_ahuja wrote:
nachiket wrote:IMHO the IAF will use the Mig-29 for what it does best - air superiority. Its not like we have a surfeit of A2A fighters at the moment with the squadron numbers hovering around 30. With the new radar and avionics, missiles, additional fuel, D-29 jammer and the Mig-29's unmatched kinematic performance this will be an incredibly potent A2A bird for both BVR and WVR engagements. That itself is enough to want more of these in service if we can get them at a reasonable price and in reasonable time. A2G capability is really beside the point.
With what long-range missiles with the Baaz execute such feats in face of stand-off AMRAAM barrages, saar? Have the upgraded Mig-29s received the ability to fire western or home-made AAMs?

The days of unmatched kinematic performance are rapidly receding in the face of very-high maneuvering missiles, no? The Mig-29 would have performed well in the 1980s and 1990s. But unless it is upgraded with western or Indian radars and weapons, it will rapidly become like the vampires of 1965.

They are receiving Astra and likely, w/this new deal - the R-77-1. The MiG-29 UPG already has Indian made EW to complement its Russian radar.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 03 Sep 2020 11:13

Vivek K wrote:I agree - the over the top celebrations for mere 3 Rafales you're right about IAF feeling the need to re-arm. I can bet that behind the scenes, IAF brass is working on some import and are holding back MK1A to have the money to pay for it. Having successfully delayed LCA induction on flimsy grounds like IFR (for a force with only 6 refuellers) they are using China as a pretext to get in a Western fighter - F21/Rafale or something else. They have experience with these, EF, F18, Gripen from the MMRCA nautanki. The 83 Mk1A order will probably be sacrificed at the alter of the new entrant.

I think that the LCA is dead in the water. To get DRDO support - they're paying lip service to the LCA. This is Arjunesque!

Vivek K, stop this. IAF has nothing to do with the non order of 83 MK1A at this time.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Sep 2020 12:32

The deal for the 83 Mk1As is due to be signed by Dec. Given the new ban on over 100 milware items,it would be v.strange if the GOI didn't confirm the order. Even the IAF is behind the req.,so let's not doubt that it will happen. The LCA Mk1A success will be the foundation for future desi fighters,both design and production. A lot is resting upon its success,the Mk-2,AMCA,NLCA,etc. These projects are in their initial stages of development and need the continuity of production to establish the supply chain of vendors,etc.,reducing firang components progressively. The 83+ is inevitable.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 03 Sep 2020 12:37

Philip wrote:The deal for the 83 Mk1As is due to be signed by Dec. Given the new ban on over 100 milware items,it would be v.strange if the GOI didn't confirm the order. Even the IAF is behind the req.,so let's not doubt that it will happen. The LCA Mk1A success will be the foundation for future desi fighters,both design and production. A lot is resting upon its success,the Mk-2,AMCA,NLCA,etc. These projects are in their initial stages of development and need the continuity of production to establish the supply chain of vendors,etc.,reducing firang components progressively. The 83+ is inevitable.

Admiral of the Fleet Filopov for once - aapke muh mein ghee Shankar!

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 03 Sep 2020 13:21

https://eurasiantimes.com/no-more-rafal ... licy-oped/

Amid reports suggesting the US could supply F-35 fighters to the United Arab Emirates (UAE), could India be next in line for finally landing a deal for the induction of the fifth-generation, stealth fighter jets amid continuing hostilities with China?

kit · Post by **kit** » 03 Sep 2020 13:36

VikramS wrote:https://eurasiantimes.com/no-more-rafal ... licy-oped/

Amid reports suggesting the US could supply F-35 fighters to the United Arab Emirates (UAE), could India be next in line for finally landing a deal for the induction of the fifth-generation, stealth fighter jets amid continuing hostilities with China?

Wont happen, Israel will veto that deal. Anyway OT

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Sep 2020 14:08

KSS read my posts carefully. I am all for desi milware first, provided they arrive on time,perform as specified, and remain within budget or within pre-determined allowable contingencies and have the requisite after induction support, penalties as with firang deals. Sadly,even made in India weapon systems,under licence with progressive indigenisation come late and have high cost overruns.

Thankfully under the NDA there has been much tightening up and with greater pvt. participation,the DPSUs will be under a lot of pressure to deliver. No longer can they sit back and monopolise the captive market. Earmarking some products only for the pvt. sector is a v.good step. I look forward to greater indigenous weapon systems made in the pvt. sector in future.L& T is doing a great job in sub construction for our SSBNs and various other naval requirements. I hope they get the P-75I deal.The arty. made by Kalyani/ Tatas and L& T complementing the OFB's ATAGS is a great achievement. We need more BMos type JVs for cutting edge tech. which we do not have.The B-8 LR SAM a case in point too.

Aero-engines is perhaps the holy grail and most difficult to acquire for the IAF. For decades I've been saying that a totally new set up ,an entity for R&D and production of all types of aero-engines for rotary to FW birds is required.We could offer aero- engine OEMs collaboration/ partnerships for the same. The aim should be to create an entity like RR,SNECMA,GE,etc., able to deliver engines right from small UAVs/ drones to heavy transport/ bombers. It will take decades to accomplish,but like our space launchers where we have mastered much rocketry for sat launchers and strat. BMs, the same can be achieved with aero-engines.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 03 Sep 2020 23:13

vivek_ahuja wrote: With what long-range missiles with the Baaz execute such feats in face of stand-off AMRAAM barrages, saar? Have the upgraded Mig-29s received the ability to fire western or home-made AAMs?

The days of unmatched kinematic performance are rapidly receding in the face of very-high maneuvering missiles, no? The Mig-29 would have performed well in the 1980s and 1990s. But unless it is upgraded with western or Indian radars and weapons, it will rapidly become like the vampires of 1965.

Last year's order for R-77's was apparently for the improved R-77-1. I'm not sure if they are only meant for the MKI's or they will be used on the Mig-29 as well. There is no reason why they can't. The Mig-29 upgrade included a new Radar (Zhuk-M2E I believe) as well as new series-3 engines which are supposed to be less smoky. It also has the new D-29 SPJ made by DARE. We can integrate the Astra with it....once we have enough of them.

Quite unreasonable to compare it with the Vampire in 1965 IMHO.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 04 Sep 2020 00:44

nachiket wrote:Last year's order for R-77's was apparently for the improved R-77-1. I'm not sure if they are only meant for the MKI's or they will be used on the Mig-29 as well. There is no reason why they can't. The Mig-29 upgrade included a new Radar (Zhuk-M2E I believe) as well as new series-3 engines which are supposed to be less smoky. It also has the new D-29 SPJ made by DARE. We can integrate the Astra with it....once we have enough of them.

The day the Mig-29s are seen with Astra in regular service, I will be happy about their combat potential (preferably supported by a matching radar suite). The SPJs are a good addition.

nachiket wrote:Quite unreasonable to compare it with the Vampire in 1965 IMHO.

I meant that comparison relatively, not literally. The point was to compare the vampire's obsolescence in 1965 against an un-upgraded Mig-29's obsolescence in 2025.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 04 Sep 2020 00:49

Karan M wrote:They are receiving Astra and likely, w/this new deal - the R-77-1. The MiG-29 UPG already has Indian made EW to complement its Russian radar.

Is the Astra confirmed for the upgraded Mig-29s? Are all Mig-29s now upgraded to the same standard?

The R-77-1 remains a mystery for me. Supposedly it has refinements over the older model. But what about range? It is only slightly longer-range than the older-model R-77s. Is the Astra too far behind?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 04 Sep 2020 01:14

vivek_ahuja wrote:
nachiket wrote:Quite unreasonable to compare it with the Vampire in 1965 IMHO.
I meant that comparison relatively, not literally. The point was to compare the vampire's obsolescence in 1965 against an un-upgraded Mig-29's obsolescence in 2025.

I understood what you meant. Still don't think that comparison is warranted especially if the only real complaint is that the R-77's aren't good enough. That issue is easily remedied. Not sure why you think a new radar is necessary since it just received a new radar in the upgrade. Calling them "un-upgraded" is also inaccurate since they went through a fairly comprehensive upgrade already.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 04 Sep 2020 01:20

nachiket wrote:I understood what you meant. Still don't think that comparison is warranted especially if the only real complaint is that the R-77's aren't good enough. That issue is easily remedied. Not sure why you think a new radar is necessary since it just received a new radar in the upgrade.

"Easily remedied" and the glacier that is Indian procurement process don't mix very well.

But fair enough! I am not going to push against Mig-29s being acquired or enhanced when we still have Mig-21s flying around and LCAs waiting to be ordered. Maybe we should turn our ire towards replacing the Bisons with LCAs first.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 04 Sep 2020 01:43

vivek_ahuja wrote:The R-77-1 remains a mystery for me. Supposedly it has refinements over the older model. But what about range? It is only slightly longer-range than the older-model R-77s. Is the Astra too far behind?

R-77-1 has a published range of 110 km.

Depending on source, Astra Mk1 has a range of 110 km in head-on chase mode. I have read reports of also 80 km in head-on chase mode. The actual range is obviously a closely guarded secret and should remain as such.

At the end of the day, while range of the missile is an important factor....it is not the only factor. Tactics and pilot proficiency are equally important. There are other factors that also affect range i.e. altitude being one.

Moral of Story ---> Range is not the supreme issue.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 04 Sep 2020 01:51

Rakesh wrote:
vivek_ahuja wrote:The R-77-1 remains a mystery for me. Supposedly it has refinements over the older model. But what about range? It is only slightly longer-range than the older-model R-77s. Is the Astra too far behind?
R-77-1 has a published range of 110 km.

Depending on source, Astra Mk1 has a range of 110 km in head-on chase mode. I have read reports of also 80 km in head-on chase mode. The actual range is obviously a closely guarded secret and should remain as such.

At the end of the day, while range of the missile is an important factor....it is not the only factor. Tactics and pilot proficiency are equally important. There are other factors that also affect range i.e. altitude being one.

Moral of Story ---> Range is not the supreme issue.

Fair enough, but then why purchase R-77s instead of ramping up Astra production? Is this an example of buying something quickly because Astra production will take too long?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 04 Sep 2020 02:14

vivek_ahuja wrote: Fair enough, but then why purchase R-77s instead of ramping up Astra production? Is this an example of buying something quickly because Astra production will take too long?

The last R-77 order was last year in the immediate aftermath of Feb 27. My guess is with the heavy flying and constant CAPs being flown during that time it is possible that a lot of carriage life of the current R-77 stock was rapidly getting used up. So an emergency order was called for.

Astra being a new weapon, the orders were finally cleared through our usual labyrinthine process only this year. Also keep in mind that this will require modifications to the entire Su-30 fleet to make all of them compatible with the Astra which will take time. Integration with the Bisons and Mig-29's has not been done yet (and for the Bisons at least will never be) so those squadrons will remain reliant on the R-77 for a while. So last year's order needs to be understood with that in mind.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 04 Sep 2020 02:17

vivek_ahuja wrote:Fair enough, but then why purchase R-77s instead of ramping up Astra production? Is this an example of buying something quickly because Astra production will take too long?

Answered your first question in Su-30MKI thread of R-77 performance.

The answer to your second question is NO. The IAF has a variety of missiles from various countries i.e. Meteor from France, R-77 from Russia, Astra from India and Derby from Israel.

The civilian rationale would be --> why not standardize on one missile type? But the IAF does like to have its platforms fire multiple type i.e. Tejas fires Israeli missiles (Derby), Russian missiles (R-73) and desi missiles (Astra Mk1). The Su-30MKI carries R-77 and Astra. Mirage 2000 fires R-73 (not a BVR missile though), as well as MICA (also not a BVR missile). But that Utopian scenario does not always pan out i.e. IAF wanted to mount Meteor on Tejas. MBDA said no. When SFDR comes on board, MBDA will surely come offering Meteor integration for Tejas

The IN is also no different. There are photos of the now retired Tu-142s mounted with the (also retired) Sea Eagle AShMs from BAe.

You cannot do that on American platforms though. The political issue makes it technically challenging.

P.S. I just saw nachiket saar's post above. Everything he said is spot on.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 04 Sep 2020 06:47

For Radar Guided Missiles (and not IR guided), it helps to have missiles from multiple vendors with different algorithms/electronics.

You never know which system has been compromised and vulnerable to ECMs.

With multiple sources, your AF has some inbuilt resiliency. And if the same platform can carry multiple weapons, it also makes the task of ECM a bit harder since they would have to figure out which missile/radar band they have to work against.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 04 Sep 2020 08:28

Throughout late 90S and late 2000's, MOD was "saving money", by buying cheaper Ukrainian R-77 AE missiles, The Russians also started inducting the R-77-1 only around 2015, post 27-Feb-19, we quickly inducted the R-77 SD since we realized the necessity while Astra numbers come online, the Russians also cannot deliver all 400 missiles in 1 go, its probably some Astra and some R-77 BD are being inducted paralelly, this will try and get 50 Astra + 248 Astra + 400 R-77 BD by end of next year while Astra-1 production picks up and SFDR comes online in 3-4 years, while this is going on Rafale+ Meteor combination will also help.

Older R-27 and R-77 will be expended with Mig-21 Bissons and shoot down Paki UAV's, people forget we shot down some 4-6 Paki UAV's mostly of the wing long type in 27-Feb-19 to 15-Mar-19 which convinced the PAf there no major radar gaps they could exploit.

The loss of F-16 and SU-30 dodging 5 Amraams from multiple aircraft was a huge shock for the PAF.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 04 Sep 2020 08:44

Btw, to put the dwindling squadron numbers into perspective, we already have the oldest Bisons being retired now. Here's a post from the Warbirds of India Twitter handle about one Bison which has showed up as a warbird

https://twitter.com/warbirdsindia/statu ... 0846112771

[245/366] 125 MIG-21 Bisons were inducted in the IAF around 2003 onwards. The first warbirds have already started appearing.. This is CU-2074 at a Dibrugarh Park #yudhpakshi365 . Photo Courtesy
@Outlookindia