Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016
Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016
This question of why put AESA radars on a dedicated strike aircraft is naive as it gets. Do you think AESAs are useful for A2A only? If yes, what are you doing on a military forum?
Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016
No, they weren't. the 6 Jaguar IMs were all from the first batch of Jaguars manufactured by HAL, subsequently 6 more were converted to IMs. So all Jaguar IMs are DARIN 1 Jaguars. Serials JM251 to JM262.Rahul M wrote: were any of those newer jags the IM version ? I remember they were split about 50-50 in 2 seaters and 1-seaters. (17+20 if memory servers right)
Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016
Kartik, thank you. I have been waiting to get definitive info on the IM serial numbers.
Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016
India wants to breathe extra life into its old Jaguar jets by adding new radars
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/13 ... -new-radar
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/13 ... -new-radar
Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016
You're welcome Rakesh.Rakesh wrote:Kartik, thank you. I have been waiting to get definitive info on the IM serial numbers.
I'd be most interested to know if the Jaguar trainers also get a new radar or whether they'll continue with the existing nose profile. My guess is that they won't get it but it should have been possible to re-profile their nose to fit the new radome and radar.
the last batch of 17 two seaters were reportedly dedicated night strike variants and the addition of a radar would be a welcome addition to their strike capability. Currently, they'd have to depend solely on their LDPs to be able to get a picture of the target.
Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016
A very well written and researched article on the Jaguars in IAF service
Tejas MRCA- Big Cat Alley- Jaguars in Indian service
Tejas MRCA- Big Cat Alley- Jaguars in Indian service
Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016
Kartik: very nice article. thank you again.
If the Darin III upgrade consists of the Elta AESA radar, then the trainer version should get it as well. And as per this article, a twin seater Darin III Jaguar flew in late 2016 from Bangalore and got IOC.
Air Force's upgraded Jaguar DARIN III aircraft gets operation clearance
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/upgraded ... ce-1629322
On a totally different note....I only knew of five Jaguar Sqns in the Indian Air Force.
a) No 6 Dragons Sqn at Jamnagar AFS operating Jaguar IM/IS/IB
b) No 5 Tuskers Sqn at Ambala AFS operating Jaguar IS/IB
c) No 14 Bulls Sqn at Ambala AFS operating Jaguar IS/IB
d) No 16 Black Cobras Sqn at Gorakhpur AFS operating Jaguar IS/IB
e) No 27 Flaming Arrows Sqn at Gorakhpur AFS operating Jaguar IS/IB
Apparently there is a sixth squadron, which I totally missed.
f) No 224 Warlords Sqn at Jamnagar AFS operating the 17 twin seater Jaguar IB. See below.
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-txBPZs6OHyU/ ... p-1414.jpg
Further evidence in the article you posted as well.
Big Cat Alley: SEPECAT Jaguars in Indian Service
http://tejasmrca.weebly.com/military-av ... an-service
If the Darin III upgrade consists of the Elta AESA radar, then the trainer version should get it as well. And as per this article, a twin seater Darin III Jaguar flew in late 2016 from Bangalore and got IOC.
Air Force's upgraded Jaguar DARIN III aircraft gets operation clearance
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/upgraded ... ce-1629322
On a totally different note....I only knew of five Jaguar Sqns in the Indian Air Force.
a) No 6 Dragons Sqn at Jamnagar AFS operating Jaguar IM/IS/IB
b) No 5 Tuskers Sqn at Ambala AFS operating Jaguar IS/IB
c) No 14 Bulls Sqn at Ambala AFS operating Jaguar IS/IB
d) No 16 Black Cobras Sqn at Gorakhpur AFS operating Jaguar IS/IB
e) No 27 Flaming Arrows Sqn at Gorakhpur AFS operating Jaguar IS/IB
Apparently there is a sixth squadron, which I totally missed.
f) No 224 Warlords Sqn at Jamnagar AFS operating the 17 twin seater Jaguar IB. See below.
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-txBPZs6OHyU/ ... p-1414.jpg
Further evidence in the article you posted as well.
Big Cat Alley: SEPECAT Jaguars in Indian Service
http://tejasmrca.weebly.com/military-av ... an-service
Upgrade is likely to reflect a desire to increase the range of these 17 two-seaters that are now assigned to No 224 'Warlords' Squadron at Jamnagar and tasked with night attack.
Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016
I would not believe this if it were true. A must read. I am in awe of this man!
https://twitter.com/livefist/status/897398825828048897
And another one...
https://twitter.com/livefist/status/897138141240246273
https://twitter.com/livefist/status/897398825828048897
And another one...
https://twitter.com/livefist/status/897138141240246273
Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016
MiG-35, F-16, Gripen or Better Choice?
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news ... er-choice/
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news ... er-choice/
Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016
Agree heartily.Lockheed is less likely to share key technical components and ToT of engine and AESA radar would be a too far-fetched expectation. Moreover, F-16 is a 40 years old aircraft that IAF will have to fly for another 40-50 years. In a nut shell, forcing F-16 down the IAF’s throat will be worst ever decision in it 85 years’ history.
However,saying buy more Rafales 'it may be a little expensive..." ,is a huge fudge.The Rafale is even more expensive than the F-35 and would be a decision perhaps the "second-worst" in the IAF's history,when there are far better cost-effective options.Su-30MKIs-at around 60+cr. a pop,half the cost of a Rafale,the MIG_35 to make up numbers as it is similar -a superior variant of the 29 UG,at around only $40+M,meaning 4-5 MIG-35s,5-6 LCAs and about 2-3 Gripens too for a single Rafale. The FGFA/T-50 is also expected to come in at around $100M a pop,half the cost of a Rafale.
Secondly,the author is contradicting himself when complaining about the MIG-35 as being considered "light" when the Rafale is even heavier! Thirdly,just how many Rafales can we afford and where will we be in the great goal of possessing about 45+ sqds. for the IAF,more numbers desperately needed since the dragon has shown its malafide intentions very clearly and a JV with Pak against India grows more likely as time passes.even doubling the order (72) will be insufficient to deal with a Sino-Paki JV,plus any action in the IOR's maritime sphere.We could get at least 4 times the number (140+) of almost equally worthy aircraft for another 36 Rafales.7 sqds in stead of just 2!
The goal for the IAF is to increase the number of sqds. in the most cost-effective manner.Since the FGFA deal appears ready to be sealed ,then the qualitative edge of the IAF has been seen to. The chief priority now should be rapidly increasing the numbers ,best done by more acquisitions/variants of aircraft already in service,upgrading all existing aircraft which still have at least a decade of life left in them and pursuing total dev. of the LCA to the hilt.
Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016
Air India’s salute to ‘Armed Forces’ on Independence Day: Serving soldiers to board flights before others.
http://www.india-aware.com/air-indias-s ... ts-others/
http://www.india-aware.com/air-indias-s ... ts-others/
Uberoi was quoted as saying, “Serving soldiers will be invited to board all Air India flights even before First Class and Business class travellers. The country is grateful to them for their services and this is our way of honouring the soldiers for their contribution to the Nation.”
“Air India has decided to salute the Indian Soldiers by the National Carrier’s unique initiative”, he said.
An Air India spokesperson confirmed the development and said that instructions for effective implementation of the initiative has been passed on to ground handling officers and staff at boarding gates as well to make sure there is strict compliance of the new order.
This has come just after the domestic carrier discontinued the provision of 50% concession for Army personnel booking tickets online. The airline stopped the provision of giving online concession to soldiers, making it mandatory for them to visit the booking office.
That order drew flak from some military circles. However, Air India had said the decision was taken to stop misuse of the provision of availing concessionary fares by travel agents.
Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016
The Rafale C is about 10 tons, the MiG-35 is about 11.5 tons.Philip wrote:Secondly,the author is contradicting himself when complaining about the MIG-35 as being considered "light" when the Rafale is even heavier!
Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016
My error! Tx. AUW is also higher by 5000kg for the 35.
Can't understand why in the Jag article,the MOD is unwilling to sign off with Raytheon,pending for aeons,supposedly a single-vendor situ.Then why in the firtst place did the MOD enter into a SV agreement?They could've easily asked RR,SNECMA or EJ for their options.The MOD is an outfit like the head of Mdusa.
Secondly,if the Jag can accommodate the EL_2052 AESA radar,why can't the LCA even in MK-1 form,instead of waiting for the MK-1A/2 whatever.
There' another fig. that demands some answer.Cost of an LCA.
Can't understand why in the Jag article,the MOD is unwilling to sign off with Raytheon,pending for aeons,supposedly a single-vendor situ.Then why in the firtst place did the MOD enter into a SV agreement?They could've easily asked RR,SNECMA or EJ for their options.The MOD is an outfit like the head of Mdusa.
Secondly,if the Jag can accommodate the EL_2052 AESA radar,why can't the LCA even in MK-1 form,instead of waiting for the MK-1A/2 whatever.
There' another fig. that demands some answer.Cost of an LCA.
? 7 month old report.Is that a correct statement? Any official data on cost/aircraft?In November, the Government of India ordered 83 HAL Tejas Mk-1A fighters for $7.5 billion U.S.
Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016
Meet Braveheart Air Force officer Ravinder AhlawatRakesh wrote:I would not believe this if it were true. A must read. I am in awe of this man!
https://twitter.com/livefist/status/897398825828048897
http://www.wionews.com/india-news/wing- ... -for-19009
Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016
Three quotes from the article:Kartik wrote:A very well written and researched article on the Jaguars in IAF service
Tejas MRCA- Big Cat Alley- Jaguars in Indian service
Jaguar is fully power-controlled in all three axes and is automatically stabilised as a weapons platform by gyros which sense disturbances and feed appropriate correcting data through a computer to the power control assemblies, in addition to human pilot manoeuvre demands.
The analog HUD is replaced by an Elbit digital system, and the Elbit Display And Sight Helmet (DASH) integrated to take full advantage of the ASRAAM.
The ASRAAM was selected because Jags will be going in very low under the radar and the ASRAAM has excellent "snap-up" capability - that is exactly what the expression means. It "snaps-up" to lock on to an interceptor at a higher altitude. With HMS guidance the pilot has to look in the general direction that his RWR is calling out to him and pass the info to the mijjilethe Jaguars being deep penetration strike fighters, fly really low and fast in enemy territory and when enemy interceptors arrive at the scene, they are, most of the times at higher altitude. The overwing carriage of the AAMs make it easier for them to immediately gain height after being launched, compared to being launched from the underwing hardpoints
Here is a personal opinion of mine - I post FWIW. because of an overload of information about stealth capabilities of fighters and "new gen warfare" initiated by the US where F-35 and like aircraft can go in stealthily at an altitude of their choice and kill with standoff weapons, I think we on this forum forgot that most air forces in the world still have to manage with legacy fighters and cannot opt out of conflict on the sort of excuses about danger that I read on here. The Jags were meant to be stealthy as in "under the radar" and fast and knock out targets in a single pass. They are still good for that. An AESA will only enable simultaneous location of ground data and data on hostile aircraft approaching although that will be in a forward looking cone. About "underpowered" - the Jaguar is not underpowered once it has delivered its munitions. Lo going in, deliver bums, 4-5 tons lighter - so hit afterburner to accelerate away. With empty pylons and half empty tanks for the return journey and reheat the Jag has a thrust to weight ratio of something close to 1. Ok it can't dodge and dance in the air but it can run fast.
Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016
Jags full weapon load is 4.5T but in any practical sortie it won't carry more than 2-2.5T , plus 1 central drop tank plus one pylon will have lightening and another external jammer pod , so you have just 4 pylons for weapons and 2 over will carry a2a missile so just 2 weapons pylons for LGB/ Cluster Weapons
You go in using fuel from drop tank , drop the tank before bombing begin egress minus weapons just 2 AAM , jammer pod and lightening pod plus internal fuel , no way Jags would be under power during penetrating or egress mission.
The under power of Jags mostly happen during peak summer at Thar areas were engine experiencing 20% derating
I dont think IAf will compromise on external jammer pod and lightening pod for any mission if Jags needs high survivability , lightening pod may not be needed on all mission if they SAR mode of aesa helps in precision bombing via GPS like aided bomb
You go in using fuel from drop tank , drop the tank before bombing begin egress minus weapons just 2 AAM , jammer pod and lightening pod plus internal fuel , no way Jags would be under power during penetrating or egress mission.
The under power of Jags mostly happen during peak summer at Thar areas were engine experiencing 20% derating
I dont think IAf will compromise on external jammer pod and lightening pod for any mission if Jags needs high survivability , lightening pod may not be needed on all mission if they SAR mode of aesa helps in precision bombing via GPS like aided bomb
Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016
Hakeem, you have latched onto some nonsense by the reporter. The missile has to clear the wing before it starts maneuvering whether it is above or below the wing. A difference of 2 feet means nothing. Also the head of the missile is not shielded by the wing, so this above and below supposition is pure nonsense. They could re-purpose a trainer's wing only so much. They were afraid to put the missile on the top (as that is aerodynamic sacrilege). But they found out that in real practice, it didn't affect that much and went on with it. It is not ideal, but it is good enough. And there is a lesson in that!shiv wrote:The ASRAAM was selected because Jags will be going in very low under the radar and the ASRAAM has excellent "snap-up" capability - that is exactly what the expression means. It "snaps-up" to lock on to an interceptor at a higher altitude. With HMS guidance the pilot has to look in the general direction that his RWR is calling out to him and pass the info to the mijjilethe Jaguars being deep penetration strike fighters, fly really low and fast in enemy territory and when enemy interceptors arrive at the scene, they are, most of the times at higher altitude. The overwing carriage of the AAMs make it easier for them to immediately gain height after being launched, compared to being launched from the underwing hardpoints
Rest, I agree. Every DACT says exactly that. If you challenge a Jaguar, it will duck and run. If you can't get it before it ducks, you are unlikely to get it thereafter.
I also maintain that the Marut would have been platform than the cat. It was sleeker than the Jaguar at lower altitude, and more adept at A2A.
Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016
Why would Jags of any vintage since DARIN II need to carry an external jammer pod? They have the Elta 8222 SPJ internally installed in one of cannon bays that is then faired over.Austin wrote:Jags full weapon load is 4.5T but in any practical sortie it won't carry more than 2-2.5T , plus 1 central drop tank plus one pylon will have lightening and another external jammer pod , so you have just 4 pylons for weapons and 2 over will carry a2a missile so just 2 weapons pylons for LGB/ Cluster Weapons
You go in using fuel from drop tank , drop the tank before bombing begin egress minus weapons just 2 AAM , jammer pod and lightening pod plus internal fuel , no way Jags would be under power during penetrating or egress mission.
The under power of Jags mostly happen during peak summer at Thar areas were engine experiencing 20% derating
I dont think IAf will compromise on external jammer pod and lightening pod for any mission if Jags needs high survivability , lightening pod may not be needed on all mission if they SAR mode of aesa helps in precision bombing via GPS like aided bomb
The problem with the Jags being underpowered is most felt at medium to high altitudes, not at low altitudes. With the greater emphasis on stand-off munitions and LGBs that have significant stand-off ranges, the Jag squadrons began to place more emphasis on flight profiles that were hi-hi-hi or hi-hi-lo. And that is where the new engine would have helped.
Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016
Rakesh, that artwork of a Jaguar DARIN II in service with the No.224 Warlords squadron, while beautiful, is not accurate. The serial number is JS224, whereas the radome is that of a Jaguar IM, which sport JMXXX serials. IS variant Jaguars didn't sport any radar, not till the DARIN III upgrade commenced.
Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016
TWR is only one of the elements aerodynamics. The degree to which each of these elements affect the aerodynamic behaviour differs significantly from one corner of the envelop to the other. Jaguar's TWR is low no matter where. But if you are flying 0.9M very close to sea level, increasing TWR starts giving diminishing returns. For example, typically doubling your TWR, will give you about 10 % increase in speed.
Once the Jaguar has acquired speed, its pencil thin waist line and low wing loading make it a killer in that corner of the envelop. And an experienced Jag pilot will do everything to get in that corner and stay there. And it is not a bad corner at all when you are trying to just defend yourself. At this corner, the aggressor is bumping all over the cockpit while the Jag pilot can sip coffee without spilling. In his turns, he can turn efficiently conserving fuel to return to his base. If he is caught outside the corner, all he has to do is get back to this corner where is safe in the clutter. It is not as easy as many of you think.
By the same token, the Jag is useless as an aggressor A2A platform. It can't get out of its corner and fight. They are not increasing the TWR of Jaguar to make it a better A2A platform. At most, it will help it to accelerate quickly into that fast-and-low flying corner. It is primarily to increase its takeoff performance and range (by virtue of better SFCs).
Once the Jaguar has acquired speed, its pencil thin waist line and low wing loading make it a killer in that corner of the envelop. And an experienced Jag pilot will do everything to get in that corner and stay there. And it is not a bad corner at all when you are trying to just defend yourself. At this corner, the aggressor is bumping all over the cockpit while the Jag pilot can sip coffee without spilling. In his turns, he can turn efficiently conserving fuel to return to his base. If he is caught outside the corner, all he has to do is get back to this corner where is safe in the clutter. It is not as easy as many of you think.
By the same token, the Jag is useless as an aggressor A2A platform. It can't get out of its corner and fight. They are not increasing the TWR of Jaguar to make it a better A2A platform. At most, it will help it to accelerate quickly into that fast-and-low flying corner. It is primarily to increase its takeoff performance and range (by virtue of better SFCs).
Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016
India draws closer to US under Modi, to restart ‘COPE INDIA’
https://ultra.news/s-e/32701/india-draw ... cope-india
https://ultra.news/s-e/32701/india-draw ... cope-india
Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016
Damn, just like No 224 Sqn, I missed that alsoKartik wrote:Rakesh, that artwork of a Jaguar DARIN II in service with the No.224 Warlords squadron, while beautiful, is not accurate. The serial number is JS224, whereas the radome is that of a Jaguar IM, which sport JMXXX serials. IS variant Jaguars didn't sport any radar, not till the DARIN III upgrade commenced.
I have one artwork like that - courtesy of Kapil Chandni - of a Rambha signed by all the "then pilots" of No 20 Lightnings Squadron.
Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016
Report.AI shows interest in ovrrhauling mil aircraft.Can docthe biz cheaper than firang OEMs. but firang OEMs must certify their approval.Matter being taken up for Ru birds.CAG.Just one miserable hangar for 14 Il-76s and 6 IL-78 aircraft
leading to open parking "adversely affecting their serviceability and life".This is a sick joke.IAF acquire aircraft worth billions and forget about their storage and maintenance !
In fact at a well known base also used for civvy flights,for years one has been horrified to see dozens (yes counted) of MKIs out in the open.The DM must act on this issue asap as poor housekeeping of aircraft worth billions adds to the cost of support,plus reduces availability severely.
leading to open parking "adversely affecting their serviceability and life".This is a sick joke.IAF acquire aircraft worth billions and forget about their storage and maintenance !
In fact at a well known base also used for civvy flights,for years one has been horrified to see dozens (yes counted) of MKIs out in the open.The DM must act on this issue asap as poor housekeeping of aircraft worth billions adds to the cost of support,plus reduces availability severely.
Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016
Please Indranil, if you disagree with me. Say so. Do not dig into my mind and figure out what you think I have read earlier as a lever to make your own argument stronger. You could have left out that bit because that is the type of nonsense that flamewars are made of. As admin I think you ought to be able to recognize a needless taunt and avoid doing it yourself.Indranil wrote: Hakeem, you have latched onto some nonsense by the reporter. The missile has to clear the wing before it starts maneuvering whether it is above or below the wing. A difference of 2 feet means nothing. Also the head of the missile is not shielded by the wing, so this above and below supposition is pure nonsense.
You don't know where I got my information from -so let me show you. Click on the link below to see a scan of the relevant page of Vayu Aerospace I/2017
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3JNY ... TNGSGF0Qm8
I don't think I agree with you. Please give me details of missile separation from underwing and overwing when a plane is flying nap of earth versus at say 1000 feet or higher. "Two feet does not make a difference" is simply your guesswork. It is not about head of missile - but it is about the missile clearing the aircraft to snap upwards, particularly to get at a target that is above and behind the low-flying Jag. There is a difference between overwing and underwing here. A plane at 50 or 100 feet releasing an infra red AAM below the wing means the missile lights up and accelerates in front of the aircraft and the plane may actually have to fly through the missile plume. Please pass your judgement on this comment which is my own and not via some reporter. At 50 or 100 feet the Jag has no wiggle room to turn away from the plume
Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016
Philip have you checked the service record of the Il 76?Philip wrote:.Just one miserable hangar for 14 Il-76s and 6 IL-78 aircraft
leading to open parking "adversely affecting their serviceability and life".This is a sick joke.IAF acquire aircraft worth billions and forget about their storage and maintenance !
Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016
wrt to hangers not even khan baba has covered parking for its vast fleet of tankers, bombers and refuelers.
take anderson afb guam or the much hated rammstein on google earth.
even in baking heat of al udeid or thumrait they stand in the hot sun where fighters cower and scurry under shamianas or AC cooled concrete HAS.
i do agree however for the AWACS planes it is better to build covered and dust free hangers.
all these heavies including elderly B52 and RC135/KC135 sit out there all day in snow, dust, rain and sun.
take anderson afb guam or the much hated rammstein on google earth.
even in baking heat of al udeid or thumrait they stand in the hot sun where fighters cower and scurry under shamianas or AC cooled concrete HAS.
i do agree however for the AWACS planes it is better to build covered and dust free hangers.
all these heavies including elderly B52 and RC135/KC135 sit out there all day in snow, dust, rain and sun.
Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016
I am not sure about the internal Jammer Pod but I stand corrected , If true then they can use 1 Pylon for Lightening PodKartik wrote:Why would Jags of any vintage since DARIN II need to carry an external jammer pod? They have the Elta 8222 SPJ internally installed in one of cannon bays that is then faired over
Likely I said Derating of Engine takes place only during Hot Climate condition during the day around 20 % beyond that there is no issue of under power engine with Jags but a improved thrust engine always a good thing but not an absolute requirementThe problem with the Jags being underpowered is most felt at medium to high altitudes, not at low altitudes. With the greater emphasis on stand-off munitions and LGBs that have significant stand-off ranges, the Jag squadrons began to place more emphasis on flight profiles that were hi-hi-hi or hi-hi-lo. And that is where the new engine would have helped.
Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016
Those two areas are in places with average temp of 30C during summers. They are probably not as hot as Indian summers with 45C. Also, dust in those places will be markedly lesser than in India. Point is we can't afford to do the same with our assets. Wasn't there an article about MKIs suffering from sun stroke.Singha wrote:wrt to hangers not even khan baba has covered parking for its vast fleet of tankers, bombers and refuelers.
take anderson afb guam or the much hated rammstein on google earth.
even in baking heat of al udeid or thumrait they stand in the hot sun where fighters cower and scurry under shamianas or AC cooled concrete HAS.
i do agree however for the AWACS planes it is better to build covered and dust free hangers.
all these heavies including elderly B52 and RC135/KC135 sit out there all day in snow, dust, rain and sun.
Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016
Average temperature is not the issue. Maximum and minimum are. Amreeki boneyards are in Arizona, California and New Mexico all dejert. Dust in the atmosphere is a problem for flying, not if planes are sitting. Dry desert air is better. Salt and moisture are bad.Karthik S wrote:
Those two areas are in places with average temp of 30C during summers. They are probably not as hot as Indian summers with 45C. Also, dust in those places will be markedly lesser than in India. Point is we can't afford to do the same with our assets. Wasn't there an article about MKIs suffering from sun stroke.
Not everything degrades in the sun or cold. Some parts - electronics, seat covers, tyres, rubber. plastic and synthetic seals and paint will all degrade from long term exposure to sunlight. Metal will not degrade much. Composite parts could degrade but I am not sure.
That said I asked for a reason. Does anyone know just how much flying is done by our transport fleet? They hardly "sit around" in the sun. They are flying around in sun and rain all the time. Transport and helo pilots probably put in way way more hours than any fighter jock
This is just about the Southern Air Command. God knows how much is done by the other commands
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtWakUsfCPk
Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016
sensible air forces limit the flying on their aircraft and their pilots put in more time on simulators which are way more economical and lead to much less wear and tear of the fleet and also translate to better availability.shiv wrote:Average temperature is not the issue. Maximum and minimum are. Amreeki boneyards are in Arizona, California and New Mexico all dejert. Dust in the atmosphere is a problem for flying, not if planes are sitting.Karthik S wrote:
Those two areas are in places with average temp of 30C during summers. They are probably not as hot as Indian summers with 45C. Also, dust in those places will be markedly lesser than in India. Point is we can't afford to do the same with our assets. Wasn't there an article about MKIs suffering from sun stroke.
Not everything degrades in the sun or cold. Some parts - electronics, seat covers, tyres, rubber. plastic and synthetic seals and paint will all degrade from long term exposure to sunlight. Metal will not degrade much. Composite parts could degrade but I am not sure.
That said I asked for a reason. Does anyone know just how much flying is done by our transport fleet? They hardly "sit around" in the sun. They are flying around in sun and rain all the time. Transport and helo pilots probably put in way way more hours than any fighter jock
This is just about the Southern Air Command. God knows how much is done by the other commands
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtWakUsfCPk
Transport aircraft are to be used essentially and operationally but other than that simulator time is much more beneficial.
we prefer to flog the aircraft which results in many related problems. Its called dhobi flying.
Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016
Please name a few sensible air forces so I can learn more about them and what they do to avoid "dhobi flying"?chetak wrote:
sensible air forces limit the flying on their aircraft and their pilots put in more time on simulators which are way more economical and lead to much less wear and tear of the fleet and also translate to better availability.
Transport aircraft are to be used essentially and operationally but other than that simulator time is much more beneficial.
we prefer to flog the aircraft which results in many related problems. Its called dhobi flying.
"dhobi flying" is not an expression I have heard in following aviation for 5 decades. Could you give me some more examples of why using aircraft safely and fully as the IAF has done constitutes dhobi flying. Particularly what are the "many related problems" that you mention.
Which centers in the world offer simulators for An 32 and Il 76 flying?
Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016
The german airforce does. I spent many months with some retired german fighter pilots back in the mid 80s when I was working on a project and that is what they told me that they all did.shiv wrote:Please name a few sensible air forces so I can learn more about them and what they do to avoid "dhobi flying"?chetak wrote:
sensible air forces limit the flying on their aircraft and their pilots put in more time on simulators which are way more economical and lead to much less wear and tear of the fleet and also translate to better availability.
Transport aircraft are to be used essentially and operationally but other than that simulator time is much more beneficial.
we prefer to flog the aircraft which results in many related problems. Its called dhobi flying.
"dhobi flying" is not an expression I have heard in following aviation for 5 decades. Could you give me some more examples of why using aircraft safely and fully as the IAF has done constitutes dhobi flying. Particularly what are the "many related problems" that you mention.
Which centers in the world offer simulators for An 32 and Il 76 flying?
Why do you need "centers" for simulators for AN-32 and IL-76??
Can't the Forces get what they should be using as part of their own facilities??
The IN had its own harrier simulator and they were not dependant on any "centers" as you put it. They have one for the MiG 29K too and also for the Seaking. They may even have one for the hawk(?).
HAL has established a sim for the ALH.
I, myself, ran a sim for some airlines for a number of years.
these days, using or running a sim is no biggie.
Here is an article that was written by Air Marshal Dhiraj Kukreja
former Air Officer Commanding in Chief of Training Command.
Simulation and Training: The IAF Perspective
“Simulators go a long way in ensuring that a pilot learns about systems under simulation before he actually uses these on-board an aircraft thus saving precious flying hours. Apart from simulators being inducted with the new aircraft being contracted for, the IAF has taken a conscious decision to include simulator training as part of the curriculum for ab initio training of pilots.”
—Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne, Chief of the Air Staff, Indian Air Force
Last edited by chetak on 17 Aug 2017 12:05, edited 3 times in total.
Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016
I have seen even NATO AWACS sitting out in the open in the sun/rain/snow.Singha wrote:wrt to hangers not even khan baba has covered parking for its vast fleet of tankers, bombers and refuelers.
take anderson afb guam or the much hated rammstein on google earth.
even in baking heat of al udeid or thumrait they stand in the hot sun where fighters cower and scurry under shamianas or AC cooled concrete HAS.
i do agree however for the AWACS planes it is better to build covered and dust free hangers.
all these heavies including elderly B52 and RC135/KC135 sit out there all day in snow, dust, rain and sun.
I guess that they are built for it.
Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016
well the anderson afb in guam is right on the shore, where i assume its salty and moist.
the climate is tropical, hot and humid all year round, with temperatures around 30/32 °C (86/90 °F) during the day, and 24/25 °C (75/77 °F) at night. The rainfall is abundant, above 2,000 millimetres (79 inches) per year; the climate is diego garcia is likely to be similar to mauritius which gets plenty of rain and that too is right on the shore.
both the above are similar to our north east.
it is likely our airframes fly a lot more hours than usaf as they have more planes to spread the load. our transport fleet has always been stretched due to himalayan flights. our ilyushins have red plastic engine covers to prevent entry of dust. and they operate in bitterly cold conditions in russia and CAR.
perhaps the supply of consumables and wear and tear parts is affecting our uptimes while massa makes everything nose to tail for even ancient crates like the B52 - some of which are due to serve until 2040 - 90 yrs after they were built and the fairly ancient engines on its kc135/c135/E3 fleet.
the climate is tropical, hot and humid all year round, with temperatures around 30/32 °C (86/90 °F) during the day, and 24/25 °C (75/77 °F) at night. The rainfall is abundant, above 2,000 millimetres (79 inches) per year; the climate is diego garcia is likely to be similar to mauritius which gets plenty of rain and that too is right on the shore.
both the above are similar to our north east.
it is likely our airframes fly a lot more hours than usaf as they have more planes to spread the load. our transport fleet has always been stretched due to himalayan flights. our ilyushins have red plastic engine covers to prevent entry of dust. and they operate in bitterly cold conditions in russia and CAR.
perhaps the supply of consumables and wear and tear parts is affecting our uptimes while massa makes everything nose to tail for even ancient crates like the B52 - some of which are due to serve until 2040 - 90 yrs after they were built and the fairly ancient engines on its kc135/c135/E3 fleet.
Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016
Hakeem, I thought you were quoting from the article, and then extrapolating some.
As for the difference. I cannot see any difference in how the flight path of the missile is going to be significantly different if the missile is shot from an overwing or underwing rails. And I am pretty darn sure of the above line. If you think through it for a while, you will realize the same.
The truth is they wanted to hand in under the wing. They couldn't. So they went over the wing.
My intention was not to taunt you. The problem is written words don't convey the tone.shiv wrote: Tejas MRCA- Big Cat Alley- Jaguars in Indian service
Three quotes from the article:
....The ASRAAM was selected because Jags will be going in very low under the radar and the ASRAAM has excellent "snap-up" capability - that is exactly what the expression means. It "snaps-up" to lock on to an interceptor at a higher altitude. With HMS guidance the pilot has to look in the general direction that his RWR is calling out to him and pass the info to the mijjilethe Jaguars being deep penetration strike fighters, fly really low and fast in enemy territory and when enemy interceptors arrive at the scene, they are, most of the times at higher altitude. The overwing carriage of the AAMs make it easier for them to immediately gain height after being launched, compared to being launched from the underwing hardpoints
As for the difference. I cannot see any difference in how the flight path of the missile is going to be significantly different if the missile is shot from an overwing or underwing rails. And I am pretty darn sure of the above line. If you think through it for a while, you will realize the same.
The truth is they wanted to hand in under the wing. They couldn't. So they went over the wing.
Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016
saar, there are aircraft that are "marinized" in terms of airframes and engines. Special coatings and materials are used in such aircraft operating in a marine environment to prevent corrosion. Just as all ships equipment is invaiably marinized by design. The earlier aircraft engines with their particularly high magnesium content were particularly susceptible to such corrosion. All IN aircraft/engines/LRUs are marinized.Singha wrote:well the anderson afb in guam is right on the shore, where i assume its salty and moist.
the climate is tropical, hot and humid all year round, with temperatures around 30/32 °C (86/90 °F) during the day, and 24/25 °C (75/77 °F) at night. The rainfall is abundant, above 2,000 millimetres (79 inches) per year; the climate is diego garcia is likely to be similar to mauritius which gets plenty of rain and that too is right on the shore.
both the above are similar to our north east.
it is likely our airframes fly a lot more hours than usaf as they have more planes to spread the load. our transport fleet has always been stretched due to himalayan flights. our ilyushins have red plastic engine covers to prevent entry of dust. and they operate in bitterly cold conditions in russia and CAR.
perhaps the supply of consumables and wear and tear parts is affecting our uptimes while massa makes everything nose to tail for even ancient crates like the B52 - some of which are due to serve until 2040 - 90 yrs after they were built and the fairly ancient engines on its kc135/c135/E3 fleet.
The guam based aircraft may be so modified/marinized. So it automatically means that only such aircraft will be guam based
The environment around coastal areas tends to be moist and also salt laden. These attack both airframes as well as engines and can be extremely corrosive. Take the specific case of Goa. There is open cast mining for iron ore which means a high content of iron ore dust in the atmosphere always. Combined with the salty atmosphere it forms a perfect battery, complete with anode, cathode and electrolyte and when this deposits on many a metal surface, as it inevitably will do, a current will start to flow inducing accelerated corrosion.
The coastal atmosphere in guam and diego garcia is markedly different from the NE only because of the salt spray laden environment.both the above are similar to our north east.
Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016
@shivji,
The IN has had full motion simulators for many many years now. Seems like the IAF is finally getting its act together.
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news ... rspective/
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news ... rspective/
The IN has had full motion simulators for many many years now. Seems like the IAF is finally getting its act together.
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news ... rspective/
The first full motion simulator that the IAF now has is that of C-130J. This is a high-fidelity, six-axis, full motion, electrically operated simulator that is capable of initial pilot training as well as operational training. With this induction, a new era in the use of simulators in the IAF has been ushered in with the entire training i.e. initial conversion, operational training, check sorties and continuation training being flown on the simulator. It has been set up at a cost of $46 million, just a shade less than half the cost of a new aircraft. The cost however, can only be recovered if the simulator is exploited to its maximum capacity and utilised for all exercises and role clearances, as is done in the US. For operational training on fighter aircraft, the IAF has mission simulators, but the numbers are limited. Consequently, operational training continues to be carried out through actual flying, a very costly proposition indeed. Delay in acquisition of additional simulators required may be attributed to the traditional mindset of hands-on flying training, high initial investment and lack of appreciation of the benefits of simulator training or a combination of all. The situation is however, changing for the better with new simulators on the anvil. Due importance is now being given to simulator training both in the initial phases and for continuation training.
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news ... rspective/
Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016
Have you heard of Il 76 or An 32 simulators?Why do you need "centers" for simulators for AN-32 and IL-76??
Simulators have become big business after 1990 or so IIRC. Both Il 76 and An 32 predate that era and are Russian. They carry (my estimate) 80% of tonnage for the IAF. What simulators are you talking about for the main transport aircraft of the IAF? And how does training in the absence of any simulator make it the "dhobi something" that you alleged?
Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016
The C-17 has a sim that may be bought. It was shown in some form at the last AI showshiv wrote:Have you heard of Il 76 or An 32 simulators?Why do you need "centers" for simulators for AN-32 and IL-76??
Simulators have become big business after 1990 or so IIRC. Both Il 76 and An 32 predate that era and are Russian. They carry (my estimate) 80% of tonnage for the IAF. What simulators are you talking about for the main transport aircraft of the IAF? And how does training in the absence of any simulator make it the "dhobi something" that you alleged?
The AN32 is a special order quickly b@st@rdized aircraft made for the IAF from the AN26 civilian version transport using the AI20 series of engines that were capable of being overhauled in India.
The amount of problems caused by this hasty b@stardiz@tion is unmentionable.
Why were sims not ordered for them as well as the IL 76?? if someone were so inclined?? The technology was certainly available at the time. It was a mind set. How did the IN go the sim way??
fleet hours are buggered needlessly if sims are not used. A majority of flying is training and ops sorties are comparatively few.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016
IN has good sims I have been inside the one for sea harrier very very retro old school stuff but that hangar has nice getup makes it look real. With 29K we got two one at Hansa and other at NATS .