Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

nam · Post by **nam** » 12 Feb 2019 19:02

ks_sachin wrote:Mark my words...

One day in my grandson or daughters lifetime HAL will do the same.

P.S - They are not even a thought yet!!!

They have done with ALH. I have the view, if it is a local solution, which they understand what they are doinng, HAL can deliver on time. Of-course the quality issues need resolving.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 13 Feb 2019 02:27

Russia offers to upgrade 21 of its older stored MiG-29s to UPG standard. No such news about the Malaysian MiG-29Ns that were also apparently inspected last year. Seems like these may have been stored properly..during the collapse of the Soviet Union, several hundreds of their fighters were just left lying outside and weather took a terrible toll on many of them.

If they have been stored well and don't have major corrosion issues, then the IAF could look to buy them if the price is cheap. 1 more MiG-29UPG squadron or more fighters for each squadron that currently operates them, is not a bad idea at all. Just hope that they aren't in for a surprise once the jets are taken apart for upgrade.

Russia offers IAF 21 MiG-29s to boost strength

New Delhi: Faced with a depleting strength, the Indian Air Force (IAF) is in talks with Russia to buy 21 MiG-29 fighter aircraft that are lying with Moscow since the late 1980s.

Top IAF sources told ThePrint that the Russians will upgrade the aircraft to the standard that India wants.

“The price offered by the Russians is good. Even though it was built at the same time when we bought the earlier MiG-29 squadrons, they have never flown,” a source said.

India currently has three squadrons of MiG-29 — a twin-engine single-seat air superiority fighter aircraft. One squadron comprises 18 aircraft.

These aircraft are currently being upgraded in-house by the IAF.

“The Russians will upgrade the 21 aircraft to the standard of the upgraded ones here. We are in talks to see how and at what price the deal can be done,” a source said.

Sources said this also rules out any additional orders for Su-30 MKI to the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) except for the nine aircraft that the IAF might order to replace the ones that crashed.

A high-level IAF team was in Russia last month to check on the fighter aircraft and it has submitted a favourable report to the Air Headquarters.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 13 Feb 2019 04:13

That's good.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Feb 2019 04:55

Khalsa wrote:MiG-29 UPG - Any mods or subsequent upgrades. Send to Mother Rossiya for continual upgrades till end of life.
Pick up Malaysian Mig-29s to make up for attrition and/or create War Reserves.

Khalsa-ji, your wish came true

21 more MiG-29s are likely coming.

And check out the picture of a MiG-29 (NOT of the Indian Air Force). But a very cool pic nevertheless.

IAF wants to accept Russian offer of 21 surplus MiG-29 fighters
https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 018_1.html

The under-strength Indian Air Force (IAF), already making do by extending the life of its MiG-29, Mirage 2000, and Jaguar fleet, is now evaluating an unexpected windfall from Moscow — for a brand new squadron of upgraded MiG-29 multi-role fighters. These 21 fighters were built in the 1980s by Russian firm, RAC MiG, for the Russian Air Force, which eventually could not muster up the money to pay for them. For three decades, these aircraft have lain unused; their wings stored separate from their bodies. Now, the IAF has been invited to buy them at the price they were built — which is below $25 million (Rs 175 crore). That is cheaper even than the Tejas Mk 1.

"A high-level IAF team has returned from Russia, where we found the MiG-29s to be in excellent condition. They could make an excellent addition to our fleet and we are submitting a positive report," said a senior Air Marshal who is directly involved in air force acquisitions. The IAF inducted the MiG-29 in the late 1980s after the United States supplied the Pakistan Air Force, the F-16 Falcon. Since then, the IAF has operated three MiG-29 squadrons: called First Supersonics, Black Archers and Tridents. Two of these squadrons are based in Adampur, Punjab and the third in Jamnagar, Gujarat.

The IAF’s existing 69 MiG-29s are currently undergoing a $900 million mid-life upgrade to the MiG-29UPG standard. While the old MiG-29s were mainly twin-engine, air-superiority fighters, optimised for air-to-air combat with enemy fighters. The far more capable MiG-29UPG is a multi-role fighter that is also equipped and armed to strike ground targets. In addition, with the addition of large capacity fuel tanks and mid-air refuelling capability, the IAF regards its MiG-29UPGs as long-range, multi-role fighters.

"These are without question the most capable MiG-29s flying anywhere in the world," said the IAF Air Marshal. Russia has confirmed that it will upgrade the 21 MiG-29s now being offered to the same standard as IAF’s other three MiG-29UPG squadrons. That would add another $15 million or so to each fighter’s price. In addition to the IAF’s fleet of MiG-29UPGs, the Indian Navy operates the MiG-29K/KUB variant off the aircraft carrier, INS Vikramaditya. This variant will also fly from the INS Vikrant, when it is delivered in 2020-21.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Feb 2019 05:14

Another one for your Khalsa-ji. The only problem with the below scenario is that Dassault will charge a pretty penny to bring the Qatari M2Ks to the Indian Mirage 2000I standard. I am not sure the IAF will bite.

Khalsa wrote:Mirage - 2000 - Back to France for upgrades. Bargain hard for no penalty for moving it back to France by buying any other worthy air frames from France or UAE. Create a proper 3 squadron force. None of this 2.5, etc BS.

https://twitter.com/KesariDhwaj/status/ ... 2665748480 ---> This is what lack of timely decision making does: IAF is forced to spend money on avoidable purchases. But on a positive side, this is the 'cheapest' & quickest way to shore up the depleting squadron strength. Someone should check if Qataris if they'll sell their Mirage 2000-9.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 13 Feb 2019 05:48

The Mig-29's will be a welcome addition IF the Russians stick to the price and timeline that will be agreed upon in the contract.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 13 Feb 2019 07:12

Czar Philippov sweets are on you..

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Feb 2019 07:29

but all of their engine, avionics, hydraulic, rubber and electrical systems would need to be replaced - being 30 years old now these things wont age well and are outdated vs the Mig29UPG std kit we have.
could easily take another 2 years to get them ready once money is paid.

so we are in effect paying 25mil USD for the chassis and rest all will be PnP extras just like the sweet deal on vikky

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Feb 2019 07:37

ks_sachin wrote:Czar Philippov sweets are on you..

I finally managed to wash off the #mithaiscam off my name!!!

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 13 Feb 2019 07:40

Oh no Sir. You wish...
I believe in a diversified supply chain

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Feb 2019 08:10

Aiyoo!!!

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 13 Feb 2019 08:32

Another Gorshkov in making.....when would we learn.

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 13 Feb 2019 09:07

I crossed some hot looking mig 29 posters on Bellari road yesterday and the fanboy in me thought why aren't we getting a squadron or two more?

....

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 13 Feb 2019 10:52

Aren't the brand new ones 35 million a pop?? if they sell to us for 25 including upgrades, it seems ok.

8 million a frame is all they are worth at most. But whatever - we need to retire those 21s.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 13 Feb 2019 11:52

Read the article again the price is USD 40 million a plane, still reasonable, until we start manufacturing in numbers if these can be delivered by 2022-23 I think we should go for it. There will be lot of common parts for Mig 29's of the IAF and IN, it will help in retiring the Mig 21's and Mig 27's.

John · Post by **John** » 13 Feb 2019 12:40

Katare wrote:Another Gorshkov in making.....when would we learn.

This deal could be disaster but in no way is similar to Gorshkov. Gorshkov was vast underestimation by Russia on complexities involved in getting to operation and navy which was backed into corner by not properly considering other alternatives earlier on (including purchasing invincible and Shar from RN). IMO I would say Scorpene to be far bigger disaster than Gorshkov because sadly we had better options but choose to go with Scorpene..

Where as Russia knows clearly what is involved with refurbishing mig-29s true we are trying to save pennies by purchasing used ( similar to igla deal) and could come back to haunt to us like Tunguska deal.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 13 Feb 2019 12:56

chalo another 840 million gone (25+15) * 21

nam · Post by **nam** » 13 Feb 2019 13:34

If we can get Mig-29 Upgd, at reasonable cost of 30-40 mil, then it is a worthy deal..

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 13 Feb 2019 13:38

We're talking about signing the order today as if going out to get half a litre extra milk. By the time this is signed who knows if there is price escalation!

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 13 Feb 2019 13:55

Rakesh wrote:
Khalsa wrote:MiG-29 UPG - Any mods or subsequent upgrades. Send to Mother Rossiya for continual upgrades till end of life.
Pick up Malaysian Mig-29s to make up for attrition and/or create War Reserves.
Khalsa-ji, your wish came true 21 more MiG-29s are likely coming.

Oh my gawd .... was I on a roll there
I need to re-read what I posted about Jags now
ha ha ha ha

Oh well i think the Mig-29s are better than nothing
but you know what all of this is telling me .....
with the added knowledge of being submerged in the LCA Mk2 thread for the last 3 days.

We have finally crossed the worst point today.
There shall be no MMRCA v1 or v2 or v3.

Band-aids will be procured from the world and its scrap yards or mothballed reserves to keep our elite Medium squadrons going.
LCA Mk1 will come and wrap up quickly.
LCA Mk1a will plug in the Mig-21 gaps.
LCA Mk2 will replace the Mirage 2K and Mig-29s.

AMCA will be a Su-30 Replacement and will morph or AMCA MK2 will morph into a Gen 5+ aircraft.
The age of large scale imports and license production look set to finish.

nam · Post by **nam** » 13 Feb 2019 14:44

MMRCA 2, as I mentioned earlier is a kite flying exercise with not even AON issued. AON & DAC approval is the biggest useless exercise designed by the babus in the weapon procurement process.

Even that has not happened. IAF is now seeing the writing on the way. NDA government is not falling for MMRCA 2 emergency. If UPA comes, they will not order more Rafale with all the politics around it!. Fundamentally nothing moving in the next 1 year.

So 2 more LCA (HAL happy)+ 2 SU30(HAL happy, IAF not happy)/ 2 Mig 29/Mirage(IAF happy)+ if lucky 2 more Rafale post 2021(or more LCA)

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 13 Feb 2019 15:24

^^how much does it cost to set up a production line for Tejas, i suppose much less than $800mn

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 13 Feb 2019 15:57

Finally commonsense is prevailing in the minds of the IAF and MOD.We've been saying the same for aeons, " buy more of the same", in service esp. MIG-29s.At around $40 M for a UPG it's a reasonable price.2 yrs. ago Egypt got them at $30M a pop, probably to a lower std.
The IAF should buy more 29s.A total of around 120 combined, existing UPGs and new ones will give the IAF at least 6 sqds.

Stoli and caviar tonight!

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 13 Feb 2019 16:11

^^my sense is the gorshkov trap was laid by russians to keep us in their orbit. I wont expect a nation that has built many carriers to make that gross error. Change in govt in 2004 offered them additional opportunities to milk us.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 Feb 2019 16:31

CAG finds flaws in acquisition of Apache, Chinook helicopters
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 975564.cms

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 13 Feb 2019 16:43

If we select the 21 aircraft on offer. We will be paying for the a new aircraft plus upgrade expenses. On the whole the expense will be Higher than a new build Tejas by the time we are through with the whole thing.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 Feb 2019 16:44

They are better of ordering new Su-30MKI from HAL , 20 of them should be better buy than Mig-29UPG

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 13 Feb 2019 16:46

Pratyush wrote:If we select the 21 aircraft on offer. We will be paying for the a new aircraft plus upgrade expenses. On the whole the expense will be Higher than a new build Tejas by the time we are through with the whole thing.

But we will get mithai from Czar Phillipov.
On a serious note I concur with your POV Pratyush.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Feb 2019 18:40

I am sure it wont be the quick clean pnp induction its being touted as

Mig29 is no more in production. Sounds like another bailout pkg after the yantar deal

That way its ok - we have to pay anyway for what we need to pay for whether in cash , rice or tea

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 13 Feb 2019 20:10

MIG-29 production has restarted for Ru and Egypt.Last prices: $28 My a pop.$30 for Egypt.MIG-35s were offered for $40M.2 yr.old prices.29Ks for the RuN.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Feb 2019 21:28

ks_sachin wrote:
Pratyush wrote:If we select the 21 aircraft on offer. We will be paying for the a new aircraft plus upgrade expenses. On the whole the expense will be Higher than a new build Tejas by the time we are through with the whole thing.
But we will get mithai from Czar Phillipov.
On a serious note I concur with your POV Pratyush.

Three considerations have to be taken into account:

1) Technical State of Aircraft
2) Cost of Aircraft
3) Delivery Schedule

Point 1 has already been completed to the IAF's satisfaction. Point 2 appears to be more or less the same. Point 3 remains to be seen. If they can deliver these 21 birds quicker or at least on par with the Tejas delivery, then you have a winner.

If these 21 birds can retire a MiG-21 or MiG-27 squadron, I am all for it.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 13 Feb 2019 23:41

This is a great deal. Mig-29 UPG are great aircrafts. By the way, CAG report says that Mig-35 completed all ASQR for MMRCA. Mig-29 UPg is not too far behind. Even if costs escallate to $50 million a plane. That is 2 Mig-29s for the price of one Rafale. If you include armaments, it is close to 4 Migs per Rafale. That's a HUGE difference. 21 Mig-29 UPGs are MUCH MUCH more capable and flexible than 5 Rafales.

This a picture of the frames being talked about from a year back. Courtesy Livefist.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Feb 2019 23:45

If this is the picture, then it is fabulous. Never flown before and thus never used. These airframes are brand spanking new. This is a great deal then. Assembly is required to complete them, so no concern about rubber seals or anything of the sort. This is a good deal.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Feb 2019 23:51

A recent IAF video on the MiG-29UPG upgrade, an IAF pilot states that after the upgrade....the aircraft is still the most maneuverable in the entire IAF fleet. I thought the fuel hump in the back would affect the maneuverability, but apparently not. This means it is better (or at least on par) with the TVC enabled Su-30MKI.

The legacy MiG-29 already trumped the Mirage 2000 in air combat, as per the well known article by Air Marshal Harish Masand (retd). None of the other birds in the IAF inventory can stand up to a MiG-29 either. Not the Jaguar, the MiG-21 or the MiG-27.

I recently saw a MiG-29 documentary in which the designers said the MiG-29 was designed around the wings, which gives the bird its much famed maneuverability. Everything else (centre fuselage) came as an add on to the wings.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 13 Feb 2019 23:56

^^even more than mig29? I always thought Su30 was the most maneuverable

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 14 Feb 2019 00:15

^^^ No. The Mig29 is the king there. Nothing turns faster than a Mig-29 in IAF inventory.

By the way, Phillip sir. Mig says that they are recovering the original cost of manufacture for airframes (adjusted for inflation from 1980). If that number is $25 million, then a new-build will cost north of $35 million now. This should put the flyaway cost of a Mig-35 around of $65 million. This validates the Mig chiefs assertion that the Mig-35 flyaway cost is 1.6 times cheaper than that of the twin-engined Euro Birds (~$100M).

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Feb 2019 00:18

Thanks Indranil.

@ Arjun: This is the video. Please check the relevant part from 15:40, but watch the entire video as well.

Lots of fun! And you will be filled with Josh. The sheer confidence that the pilots have for the MiG-29UPG is clearly evident.

In a low speed dogfight, the PAF's F-16s will be hard pressed to get a MiG-29 in its sights. IAF pilots are supremely confident about the bird.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 14 Feb 2019 01:12

Austin wrote:CAG finds flaws in acquisition of Apache, Chinook helicopters
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 975564.cms

CAG is 100% congress mole!

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 14 Feb 2019 01:39

Singha wrote:but all of their engine, avionics, hydraulic, rubber and electrical systems would need to be replaced - being 30 years old now these things wont age well and are outdated vs the Mig29UPG std kit we have.
could easily take another 2 years to get them ready once money is paid.

so we are in effect paying 25mil USD for the chassis and rest all will be PnP extras just like the sweet deal on vikky

Doesn't matter. the UPG upgrade does ALL that anyway. All rotables are replaced, airframe taken apart and changes made to add the new spine and dorsal fuel tank. Plus new engines (RD-33 Ser.3) and radar and IRST added along with the electrical equipment to support these avionics changes. Basically you're getting 21 as good as new jets that might have even fewer hours on them than the original IAF MiG-29s that were upgraded to UPG standard.

This is very doable. the upgrade kits will need to be paid of course, but BRD can do the upgrades in-house.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 14 Feb 2019 01:41

Meanwhile, back at the ranch.............

Raghav Ohri @raghavohri0

Big: Co-accused Rajiv Saxena offers to become an approver in the AgustaWestland case. Trouble in the offing for those already in the dock and those who have managed to remain under the radar.

#AgustaWestland

11:35 PM - 12 Feb 2019