Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

[Cain Marko]

One thing that did surprise me on that fateful day is that the MKIs did not use Sarh homers and the Bars to counterattack at longer ranges and ruin a few salwars. IIRC they have more reach than the R77s and probly the aim120C. Perhaps there just wasn't enough time

The IAF was probably tied up by ROE's since the Political leadership probably did not want things to escalate further, Also it was the PAF which picked the time and place of choosing, unlike in an open war IAF could not predict what exactly they were willing to do?

I think the ROE explanation is most likely. The rest might not have mattered considering that being locked on by the bars should've given them plenty of pause. Iirc this is how the Chibber incident went down. Of course they didn't have the amraams then.

[Kartik]

How is the M2K upgrade programme doing, at $50M a pop? Last news was that only 7 out of the 54 had been upgraded and then came the crash of a two- seater.HAL and the IAF have also been at loggerheads over labour payments.The DM should resolve any issues asap if it is holding up the upgrades.

2 were upgraded by Dassault, and HAL had upgraded 12 by February 2019. Maybe a few more by now. So I'd expect ~19-20 Mirage-2000Is.

link

“There is no way of confirming how many of them were the upgraded versions and how many the original ones. But I can say that we have so far upgraded a dozen Mirage 2000s,” said the official. “After the upgrades, they have more teeth and are almost like new aircraft with improved performance ratings. That’s all I can say now.”

[Lekhraj]

Correct. This is 5BRD Sulur. They service Avros. The Avros in the pic are 'in service' . The DC-3 is a display piece.

The last few IAF DC3 Dakotas kept flying due to dedicated efforts of my father. He was recommended to AVSM award for that effort and also for his stellar professional performance ending with being an AEB examiner for 8 years.

Heartfelt thanks and respect for you father.

[VickyAvinash]

The last few IAF DC3 Dakotas kept flying due to dedicated efforts of my father. He was recommended to AVSM award for that effort and also for his stellar professional performance ending with being an AEB examiner for 8 years.

Heartfelt thanks and respect for you father.

Second that

[Philip]

12+ would be good going.Did any of the upgraded M2Ks take part in the last spat with Pak?

[Bala Vignesh]

12+ would be good going.Did any of the upgraded M2Ks take part in the last spat with Pak?

At least 2 that we know of, which were handling the southern half of the front with 4 Mirage V and 4 JF-17's opposite them.

[Kartik]

12+ would be good going.Did any of the upgraded M2Ks take part in the last spat with Pak?

Possibly some- since I believe the upgraded Mirage-2000s were first going to the No.9 'Wolfpack' squadron and it was this squadron whose Mirages undertook the Balakot mission. Some of them were armed with air to air missiles and those may have been the upgraded Mirages. those carrying Spice 2000s could've been the Mirage-2000H/TH since they had been armed with it before the upgrade itself.

[JTull]

Any update on the flight control software issues in the HAL crash?

[Karan M]

Will be classified in all probability. Dassault won't want a peep out there lest it create a buzz.

[nachiket]

One thing that did surprise me on that fateful day is that the MKIs did not use Sarh homers and the Bars to counterattack at longer ranges and ruin a few salwars. IIRC they have more reach than the R77s and probly the aim120C. Perhaps there just wasn't enough time

Not very useful IMO. There would have been zero probability of an R-27 actually hitting one of the pakis. The MKI's had incoming AMRAAMs and would have to go cold to evade them at some point after launching the R-27's at which point the R-27's would be trashed. The pakis could go cold once the AMRAAMs got into seeker range. Might be useful as a scare tactic perhaps but the MKI's were heavily outnumbered and needed to conserve their shots unlike the paki spray and pray method.

[JayS]

12+ would be good going.Did any of the upgraded M2Ks take part in the last spat with Pak?

Possibly some- since I believe the upgraded Mirage-2000s were first going to the No.9 'Wolfpack' squadron and it was this squadron whose Mirages undertook the Balakot mission. Some of them were armed with air to air missiles and those may have been the upgraded Mirages. those carrying Spice 2000s could've been the Mirage-2000H/TH since they had been armed with it before the upgrade itself.

Reportedly the Strike package did not have any upgraded ones. But the couple on CAP the next day were the upgrades ones, from what I remember.

Some time back this year, Vishnu Som had mentioned, likely on twitter, that one full Sq was upgraded.

[Karan M]

The Strike package had a mix of upgrades and non upgraded aircraft.
The upgrades were the escorts. The non upgrades carried the A2G PGMs.

The fighters on CAP the next day were upgrades.

[Cain Marko]

One thing that did surprise me on that fateful day is that the MKIs did not use Sarh homers and the Bars to counterattack at longer ranges and ruin a few salwars. IIRC they have more reach than the R77s and probly the aim120C. Perhaps there just wasn't enough time

Not very useful IMO. There would have been zero probability of an R-27 actually hitting one of the pakis. The MKI's had incoming AMRAAMs and would have to go cold to evade them at some point after launching the R-27's at which point the R-27's would be trashed. The pakis could go cold once the AMRAAMs got into seeker range. Might be useful as a scare tactic perhaps but the MKI's were heavily outnumbered and needed to conserve their shots unlike the paki spray and pray method.

Hmm good points. I was forgetting that the MKI were outnumbered. And I'm sure that played an important role in the minds of the pilots. India need to have more qra assets in that area. Tejas mk1 would be perfect. And extra see.

[deejay]

Jammers are useful if you are nose-on or 180 degrees receding, given the fact jammers are nothing but lower powered "versions" of a radar type set-up. If you are maneuvering, your jammers will lose the target aircraft so its radar would work again. So unless you have a towed decoy to seduce incoming missiles, really there is no 360 degree SPJ in the true sense (think sphere not angles), which is why chaff remains so popular.

That apart, the issue was the F-16s were not in missile range. To get that range, the MKIs, especially Avenger 1, were on burner and closed in to the F-16s despite the risk of oncoming missiles, not theoretical but real as they had already launched. This occurred repeatedly. Avenger1's ultra-aggressiveness was what frustrated the Pakistanis, and they retreated to form a BARCAP. They were not able to shoot down the Su-30s, were losing rounds, running out of fuel, being locked in place, remember the clock was ticking and more Indian reinforcements were rushing to theater. And meanwhile, Avenger 1 was racing in to the fight at burner, maneuvering into danger to get his own WCS solution and then getting out - on that day, that crew took the game to the line and beyond. This is the reason many feel that even the Avenger 1 crew deserved an award. Just imagine the situation for a moment, AMRAAMs on the way, RWR is buzzing with a F-16 tone, instead of staying defensive, the Avenger 1 crew went in nonetheless and to the point they would start getting the F-16s within their dynamic launch envelope, and racing out only when it became clear the threat was all but unbeatable. To do it once, is nuts enough, apparently they did it repeatedly. Abhinandan was not the only ultra-aggressive person in theater that day.

If anything justified the IAFs investment in its pilots, its efforts in choosing them, training them to pair their aggression with skill, the choice of the heavy duty Flanker platform, it was this. They stayed in the fight and took the fight to the Vipers who were attacking from was a classic advantageous position and hence expected the Flankers to stay wholly defensive.

And these were our standard squadron pilots, not a hand-picked crew from CCS executing a prepared ambush. The same situation, on Feb 26th, the PAF pilots *ran*. They saw a large formation of Mirage 2000s headed their way, refused to engage. In our case, outnumbered the Su-30s stayed in theater, stayed in the fight, and did not screw up tactically, kept moving into offense, frustrating the Pakis, till the AEW&C called it off, and then they retreated to form the BARCAP. And then came Abhi.



Yes, the issue persists with the R-118 and SAP-518, but typically what you can do is decouple the RWR from the SPJ and set latter to auto. It has its own ESM receiver and will jam accordingly as and when it sees a threat, without being triggered by the RWR and then manually allocated to specific threats. Not perfect, but still functional.

Very informative post on air battle on 27/02. @Deejay do you endorse ?

Of Course I do. There is no doubt that within the military engagements, and this has been repeatedly borne out, that while we have been strategically defensive and Pakis strategically offensive, tactically we have always been more hostile. 27/2 PAF's entire engagement was defensive while from our side we were always aggressive.

Further to Karan's point of pilots. We have to understand that the pilots flying in IAF Sqns are already an extremely filtered, chosen elite. Irrespective of their situation as a line pilot or some extra qualification that they hold, the sheer scrutiny, continuous training, exhaustive contingency planning and testing in Squadrons are enough to weed out any one who has slackened even one bit. None of your fellow citizens who make it as a fighter pilots are less that "elitest" that is there.

[Bhaskar_T]

ANI tweets below. Don't know what exactly happened.

https://t.co/D6qkXDsPxU, 5 Dec 2019

Indian Air Force: IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria & his team were present at the time of shooting incident at Joint Base Pearl Harbor Hickam, the US Navy and Air Force Base, in Hawai, USA. All IAF personnel, including the chief are safe and unaffected by the incident.

[Aarvee]

Looks like there was a mass shooting

https://www.news.com.au/world/north-ame ... 000648f9e5

[chetak]

Surely this needs US approval which is very doubtful

uncle trump would rather that we bought new US fighters so that his uncle sam benefits


twitter

IAF doesn't need the best fighters in less numbers, it needs good fighters in large numbers asap.

Japan is retiring F-15 fighters which are in good condition, we can buy them for cheap, exploit them for at least 15 years, then refit and gift them to an ally nation.

[Cain Marko]

Surely this needs US approval which is very doubtful

uncle trump would rather that we bought new US fighters so that his uncle sam benefits


twitter

IAF doesn't need the best fighters in less numbers, it needs good fighters in large numbers asap.

Japan is retiring F-15 fighters which are in good condition, we can buy them for cheap, exploit them for at least 15 years, then refit and gift them to an ally nation.

This is a daft idea on so many levels - if you want to get boneyard frames, go straight to the US. If you need close to retirement frames, you can find them wherever - M2ks, Fulcrums, etc. If you need cheap, heavy fighters, get the MKI. If you want quick induction, stay away from a new type. If you want quick, ready and tested fighters, don't go for altogether new upgrades.

[Aditya_V]

And you want IAF to induct a new type of aircraft which have been flogged for 30+years, I guess such ideas come from people who can't differentiate Tomatoes and Fighters

[Vips]

Cheap as in initial costs (that too only on paper) or in per hour flying cost or in life cycle costs?

[srai]

...

twitter

IAF doesn't need the best fighters in less numbers, it needs good fighters in large numbers asap.

Japan is retiring F-15 fighters which are in good condition, we can buy them for cheap, exploit them for at least 15 years, then refit and gift them to an ally nation.

[Aditya_V]

Plus we need to train, deploy spares, create infras. Its repair the airframes, avionics, buy US weapons etc. Basically what the Israelis are doing with old F-15's from the US- only thing is they have been operating the type for 40 years and have all the weapons in thier inventory.

It will suck up more funds than MRCA and it will take 5 years to start inducting.

[Kartik]

It's a completely unfeasible idea and doesn't even warrant a serious discussion here. Let's move on.

[Kartik]

IAF looks to private sector for MRO of the An-32 fleet

IAF looks at private sector for An-32 MRO

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is moving ahead with a plan to outsource maintenance of its aging twin-engine Antonov An-32 “Cline” transporters to the private sector. “We want to focus on war-centric capabilities and open up the sector to industry. The government has agreed to subsidize maintenance costs for the private sector,” a senior maintenance official of the IAF told AIN at the annual Aero MRO conference held in New Delhi last week.

The IAF has around 100 An-32s in its inventory, which are currently maintained by military personnel. It wants to partner with industry for the refurbishment and re-equipment of its transport aircraft. Eleven work packages have been selected, to include repainting, wing-structure modification, and ultrasonic inspection.

Initially, the air force plans to “hand-hold” MRO providers to ensure quality control requirements are met. “The Indian MRO industry is still nascent and not mature enough,” commented the IAF official. "Ultimately we would like the industry to take responsibility for certification.” He cautioned that, while some spares could be sourced in India, a reliable supply of spare parts was essential. For the past three years, IAF has been working with private manufacturers on the indigenization of components such as nuts, bolts, washers, pipelines, rubber seals, unions, joints, harnesses, filters, and electronic items.

The upgrade of the An-32s has been caught in a quagmire of geo-politics and sparring between Russia and Ukraine, resulting in delays due to the non-availability of components and spares. In June, a Request for Information for An-32 spares was released by the MoD.

On a more optimistic parallel note, AIN has learned that an An-32 will fly with a jatropha-based bio-fuel later this month as part of the IAF efforts to become more energy-efficient and environment-friendly. No changes have been made to the aircraft for the trials, which are due to take place at the airfield at Leh, one of the world's highest with an elevation of 3,256 meters (10,682 feet).

[kit]

...

twitter

., maybe just woke up ?

[chetak]

It's a completely unfeasible idea and doesn't even warrant a serious discussion here. Let's move on.

Kartik ji

read my original post.

Of course, it's an unfeasible idea because the US just will not allow it, a second sale, as it were via japan.

japan will also be the last country to do this as it does not benefit them in any way.

Except for the fact that their fighters are all maintained excellently, just like the swiss maintain their aircraft.

I remember reading that after many years of use, the swiss vampire jets of ye olde vintage were still in mint condition.

Japan has an excellent, versatile and deep rooted MIC going back to many decades before even WWII.

Their companies were in the very forefront of aircraft and warship design.

If at all, they would like to sell their own expensive products.

The shinmaywa deal has been languishing for the longest time now.



I just wondered why anyone would push something like selling used aircraft to India and was hoping to see if anyone here had any explanations or could shed some light on this matter

the baboo(n)s in dilli have a way of listening to nut cases because they often see a cut for themselves.

Is someone floating a trial balloon of sorts

The amerikis are desperate to break into the Indian fighter program as they see a considerable market with both the IN and the IAF.

are they considering/offering a refurbished, airframe life extended and mid life updated version for sale that may last another 25-30 years

[Philip]

The MKI is not " cheap", it is twice the cost of a MIG-29/35, plus requiring 2 pilots is a huge cost when you add the cost of an extra pilot and his family to look after even after retirement. The LCA was supposed to be our cheap MIG-21 replacement but HAL gave the MOD a heart attack with its unit cost even more than an MKI ! Some sort of agreement was reached on the unit cost now 50crores+ ? Even this is around $10M more than the cheapest firang import.

Right now acquring as many extra fighters of types in service is about all we can afford with the poor budget for defence.Privitisation of the LCA programme, an extra line could help hugely to reduce costs and increase production significantly, but the entrenched MOD babus who control the inefficient DPSUs do not want to lose control over them and the billions they control and consume.

Adding yet another type to the menagerie in the IAF stables is a great recipe for future problems of support, spares, etc.There is one very capable aircraft that could fit the bill though instead of the ancient US offerings and the sexy Swede, with the Rafale pricing itself out of the contest, instead of the MKI,its relative, the single-seat SU-35.

[chetak]

twitter

Quite honest of former CAS, Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa to accept publicly that IAF could not impose significant costs on Pakistan Air Force on Feb 27. And he rightly identified the reasons for it. The prolonged negotiations to get new aircraft.

[Nihat]

I guess quantity has its own quality when it comes to aircraft density in a limited engagement. I sure hope that the post balakot engagement sent a strong message up the political order to expedite rafale purchases and in particular focus inducting volumes of tejas with astra as a part of the strike package.

As a point defence aircraft, Tejas too would have more than capable of bringing down another F-16 or two.

[Karan M]

What he meant was in a Rafale, Abhi could have picked off the Vipers from a safe distance using Meteors.

[fanne]

I don’t think Rafale can answer the density/number question, it answers the technology superiority question. The number question is answered by lca which no ones seams to be in hurry to acquire.

[nam]

I am thinking what the Chief meant was Abhi probably would still be inside be inside on our side of LC, after taking the shot. Given Rafale would have modern navigation tool like digital maps, which the Mig21 lacks.

And a better chance of escaping the Aim120 counter fire from PAF F16. Since the F16 was hit by a R73, having a Meteor would not have made a difference.

One interesting aspect about the fight was that WC Abhi's Mig21 dashed in to the fight towards the F16, knowing VERY WELL they were F16s. Unlike the Su30, who did not dash to the LC for a merge. Rather they used the BVR capability.

The tactic of a Mig21 is to dash at Mach 2, to the firing position, fire and get out. He did the exact same thing and the F16 were caught pants down. The F16 didn't knew there was a Mig21, that close. Otherwise there is no reason to allow the Mig21 to come so close, to allow it to fire a R73!

WC Abhi knew very well what he was doing. He blindsided the F16! The other F16s could only react when WC was turning back. WC was flying for close to a minute in POK, after the kill.

I am guessing he went to have a look at the target going down...

[Philip]

One forgets that BVR AAMs are not magic bullets.
Contemporary aircraft also carry around 4 WVRs too which can be used to shoot down BVR missiles if decoys and EW have failed.The hard facts is that over 60% of IAF losses in all wars were due to ground AAA fire , SAMs and MANPADS.
These ground- based anti-air systems are far deadlier today with better radars and missiles. In GW 1, RAF Tornadoes took a pasting operating at low levels from Iraqi air defences. Our Jags (and LCAs) which operate at low level will take a lot of punishment especially with their underpowered engines,not to be upgraded with new ones due to excessive cost ( Raytheon).Stand-off munitions and PGMs will be required in v.large number at great cost too.

Coming back to BVR AAMs.Meteor is not a magic bullet.It will be carried mainly by our Rafales which are too few in number to fight "tous azimuth". It is hugely expensive too.Astra-ER is our better more affordable bet which will be available for all types.New Ru BVR AAMs being developed for the SU-57/35 will be around too and available for Ru origin aircraft. Plus ,if the BVR attack fails, the contest enters the WVR situation where both aircraft are situationally aware of each other and pilot skills,aircraft dogfighting capabilities, WVR AAMs and last but not least guns/ cannon will decide the outcome.
There is credible evidence though that smaller aircraft like our MIG-21s, Gnats in the past, were picked up late in dogfights giving them a distinct advantage.The LCA should similarly benefit from its size and use of composites. I think Indo- US exercises at COPE a decade ago saw this factor displayed in ample form.

[mody]

MiG-21 Bison do carry the R-77. Don't know if VC Abhinandan's plane was armed with R-77s or not. However, to say that had he be flying a Rafael instead of the Bison, the result would have been different is stretching it, in my opinion. The flight pattern at Abhi flew, firing the R-73 was a better option and would give better results, which it did. He came in from amongst the mountains, surprising the pakis, who had not detected the Migs. Trying to use a BVR missile in this case, would have given away the few seconds of element or surprise. Maybe with a lesser distance, the BVR missile also might have yielded the same result, and could have allowed abhi to evade the paki missile and return safely. Only the IAF, with full details of the engagement, can possibly answer this.

IAF was surprised by PAF, period. Charsi Niazi had declared on TV that they will retaliate. IAF did not anticipate that PAF would try to strike at 10.30 am in the morning with significant civilian air traffic possible. Also, the numbers that PAF threw at us was also a surprise.

[nam]

The notion about getting surprised would not have been a factor if we had decided on full fledged retaliation.

With the LoC being like a "wall of fire", which neither side want to cross, surprises can occur any time. Either of the side can fire BVR without warning..

We decided not to invade PoK, that is the whole point. Nobody would be talking about missing F16, if there was full fledged IAF attacks on PoK.

PAF must have been flying large packages on their side of LOC, ever since our attack on 26 morning. There was nothing stopping PAF to fire off some Aim120 on 26th itself.

[manjgu]

i am still asking if abhi had not gone across...what would PAF have shown as their accomplishment?? PAF surprised us because they had the element of surprise..idk whats the big deal about it. we also surprised them...but went inside their air space... both on 26th and 27th.

[souravB]

^^That's the point I make to any Paxi comes around on SM gloating about how 27th Feb was a big victory for them.
I just make the point of the only thing we can be definitely certain of even if we take all the claims of uncertainty out is IAF can & will cross LOC as they please since both of those days IAF aircrafts were in POK/Paxtan proper airspace. India as a nation is willing to take the risk which PAF chickened out of.
Never had any shred of reasonable reply to that.

[kit]

The IAF was probably tied up by ROE's since the Political leadership probably did not want things to escalate further, Also it was the PAF which picked the time and place of choosing, unlike in an open war IAF could not predict what exactly they were willing to do?

I think the ROE explanation is most likely. The rest might not have mattered considering that being locked on by the bars should've given them plenty of pause. Iirc this is how the Chibber incident went down. Of course they didn't have the amraams then.

would the ROE hold good against the force they were up against? how do you defend yourself without going into an offensive mode? .. would be interesting to know how ROE is formulated

[nam]

HAL is planning to produce a Su30 testbed.. finally..

[VKumar]

ROE.
Do they state do not return fire if enemy fires from within his territory?
How did the MIG 21 pilots miss this rule?
I think the SU 30MKI were not armed with BVR as they were expecting

1. No action by PAF during daytime

2. They expected PAF to follow ROE

3. To conserve missile life.

Which is why they did not fire back.