Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 01 Mar 2019 11:03

Reg. an above post on us customising the 29, there is a fine piecd in a mag picked up at Aero- India about the 35 shows that other than a similar aerodynamic profile, everything inside is new.From composites, radar, engines, avionics, range, endurance, armament,virtually a new bird far more capable than even the upgraded 29.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 01 Mar 2019 14:01

Philip wrote:Reg. an above post on us customising the 29, there is a fine piecd in a mag picked up at Aero- India about the 35 shows that other than a similar aerodynamic profile, everything inside is new.From composites, radar, engines, avionics, range, endurance, armament,virtually a new bird far more capable than even the upgraded 29.

Like the F21 ?

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 01 Mar 2019 14:30

rkhanna wrote:
Philip wrote:Reg. an above post on us customising the 29, there is a fine piecd in a mag picked up at Aero- India about the 35 shows that other than a similar aerodynamic profile, everything inside is new.From composites, radar, engines, avionics, range, endurance, armament,virtually a new bird far more capable than even the upgraded 29.
Like the F21 ?

Not just the phiting phalcon, but even better than AMCA in late 2020s, which shall be outdated on arrival. You see MiG-35 would be manufactured in 2019, which makes it more modern than Epf 22, which is an 80s design manufactured a decade back.

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 01 Mar 2019 14:36

http://www.indianairforce.nic.in/conten ... -rajasthan
vayu Shakthi 2019

chola · Post by **chola** » 01 Mar 2019 14:45

Thakur_B wrote:
rkhanna wrote:
Like the F21 ?
Not just the phiting phalcon, but even better than AMCA in late 2020s, which shall be outdated on arrival. You see MiG-35 would be manufactured in 2019, which makes it more modern than Epf 22, which is an 80s design manufactured a decade back.

LOL.

Seriously, no more plucking MiG-29s or any MMRCA other the 36 Rafales.

Look at the timelines for Tejas MK1A, NLCA, MWF and AMCA. All are converging 5 to 7 years down the road. Any phoren buy with our insistent on local manufacture would take at least that long if not longer. The only thing that makes sense now with firang fighters is off the shelf to make up numbers.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 01 Mar 2019 14:57

I simply cannot see these multiple programmes all fructifying around the same time.Delays are the hallmark of our DPSUs.I clearly remember in 2008 tbat a date of 2011 was given for LCA induction.

Sadly, there is no way to immediately increase but buying more of types in service, or G-to-G deals for a new type..

Lt.Gen.Soni. on the release of the gallant "Wingco".
"We Indians are very quick to forgive, he's come home, so let's end it..." The panellists were universal in asking what our ultimate goal was, and that until that goal was achieved we should press on regardless, now that the nation and govt. were united in achieving that objective.

chola · Post by **chola** » 01 Mar 2019 15:08

^^^ Dear Comrade Filipov, the MK1A is a lock and so is the NLCA. The MWF is a development of the Tejas to minimize risk and the AMCA now has a supporting eco-system that comes from Tejas.

The chances are that these will bear fruits as fast or faster than any screwdrivergiri project from your Rodina.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 01 Mar 2019 17:52

We should shift the LCA production line to Russia for Comarade Fillipov’s sake...

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 01 Mar 2019 18:06

ks_sachin wrote:We should shift the LCA production line to Russia for Comarade Fillipov’s sake...

No, No,,, Shift fillipov to russia....

on OT
a blind folded person cannot see any hallmarks in dpsu here.
he may see once it is removed there.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 01 Mar 2019 22:34

I think in the near future (soon after elections or even before that), one of the immediate priorities should be replenishment of 4+/4++gen airframes.

I hope we seriously consider acquiring M2Ks from Qatar & Taiwan (if they are wishing to get rid of it) and start UPG program immediately. It is clear that IAF loves this plane. Also, in addition of 21 MiG-29s, we should reconsider Malaysian MiG-29Ns sale offer it is still on the table. This would give us around 50-60 4+ gen air frames which can be used until Mk.1A stocks increases and/or MWF. Although it was a huge feat by Wing Co Abhi in bringing down a F-16, our pilots in future certainly will have much better chances with more modern fighters.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 02 Mar 2019 01:19

I expect all these 2nd hand sources will want same updates as IAF and there to be higher demand for training assignments here.

Biggest shocks will be felt in Beijing.

India has done hard power damage with its soft power that Chinese couldn't even dream of buying.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 02 Mar 2019 15:33

https://www.outlookindia.com/website/story/india-news-survival-instinct-and-training-story-of-an-iaf-pilot-ejecting-fro

I don't know if this is out of place.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 02 Mar 2019 18:05

As per the article “Radar imagery confirms 4 buildings in Jaish madrasa were hit

S-2000 precision-guided munition (PGM) are not meant to destroy the building but only to cause damage after they enter a building.

It first penetrates through the roof, then enters the building and explodes after a delay. It is meant to hit the command and control centres and does not destroy the building. The software has to be programmed with the type of roof – its thickness, material of construction etc. – and that, accordingly, sets the delay period for the PGM.

these buildings had roofs made of corrugated galvanized iron (CGI) sheets and the SAR imagery shows that on the first day, these roofs had gone missing.
These CGI roofs were repaired after two days, making it difficult to assess the full damage by technical intelligence

So these 1000kg bomb does not flatten any structure. In fact the roof is already replaced!

So does this PGM only cause sharp splinters which will kill in vicinity, but only limited damage to structures.
This means that in a 3 floor building, this would only damage some levels and not whole building?

To a layman like me, a bomb that flattened the building would have been more appropriate.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 02 Mar 2019 18:51

AdityaM wrote:As per the article “Radar imagery confirms 4 buildings in Jaish madrasa were hit

S-2000 precision-guided munition (PGM) are not meant to destroy the building but only to cause damage after they enter a building.

It first penetrates through the roof, then enters the building and explodes after a delay. It is meant to hit the command and control centres and does not destroy the building. The software has to be programmed with the type of roof – its thickness, material of construction etc. – and that, accordingly, sets the delay period for the PGM.

these buildings had roofs made of corrugated galvanized iron (CGI) sheets and the SAR imagery shows that on the first day, these roofs had gone missing.
These CGI roofs were repaired after two days, making it difficult to assess the full damage by technical intelligence
So these 1000kg bomb does not flatten any structure. In fact the roof is already replaced!

So does this PGM only cause sharp splinters which will kill in vicinity, but only limited damage to structures.
This means that in a 3 floor building, this would only damage some levels and not whole building?

To a layman like me, a bomb that flattened the building would have been more appropriate.

A 1000kg/2000lb Spice 2000 which can penetrate hardened shelter can only blow the roof of a shed and that is the best case of DDM for you. Even 100kg bombs will flatterer those structures, 5 2000lb Spice 2000 on a mountain top will change the shape of the structure for ever

Wait for a couple of months Google Earth will update and we can see for our self

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 02 Mar 2019 19:35

^lol. True.

So the Spice is a kit that can be attached to otherwise dumb bombs as well? So the bomb can itself have varied varieties of warhead.

A nice Spice video

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 03 Mar 2019 00:22

So far only Mi-17 choppers have received indigenous MAWS. It seems like they are the first airborne platforms to have been tasked to get MAWS. I was thinking the reasoning behind this and it stuck me. A fleet of Mi-17 choppers have been tasked for VVIP transport roles including PM. Of course, the actual choppers that are involved in PM transport could be fitted with some Israeli MUSIC type of protection system but it does makes sense to have a desi solution in place if the need arises or for gradual replacement over time.

I hope in the future, BEL will be tasked to adopt MAWS solution to other chopper platforms as well.

Per wiki, both Rudra & LCH will contain EW suite including MAWS from Saab.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 03 Mar 2019 00:25

Kakarat wrote:
Wait for a couple of months Google Earth will update and we can see for our self

Digital Globe is better at providing higher resolution imagery, faster for analysts who work with them. There are at least two organizations that I am aware of who are going to get their hands on DG imagery if available and possibly publish an open source analysis which should shatter pretty much any noise that the PA/PAF has been putting out on SM and elsewhere.

nam · Post by **nam** » 03 Mar 2019 00:42

From my point of view, if JeM camp was intact, PA would have taken the reporters there. They took the reporters to the craters which were 200 mtr to the camp, BUT not the camp itself!

Enough for me!

nam · Post by **nam** » 03 Mar 2019 00:53

Here is my view on lessons learnt.

1. Deep strike role in heavily defended space: More push & funding to UCAV. May be more push toward 5G. Get F35 or Su57? Long term more priority to AMCA, as political leadership would like low casualty ingress given the media coverage given to WC Abhi. Pak would use any future pilot bailout to it's advantage. So I don't see the political class wanting to risk pilots in deep strike mission during non-war time.

2. Priority to standoff weapons.

3. Asking HAl to increase LCA to 24 and more FOC until MK1A comes. To fill up numbers to cover CAP, as in the future a similar template may be applied where we wait for PAF to respond, after our attack.

4. Focus on powered BVR like Metoer & SDFR. Given that PAF will bomb and scoot, you would want a Ramjet BVR chasing them for a long distance. I can see IAF pushing for Metoer integration with Su30 or may be Mirage. SDFR will priority.

All in deep stand off strikes and hold for Pak response with minimum pilot loss.

IAF is now seen as the go to to deal with Pak terror and money will be provided.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 03 Mar 2019 00:57

brar_w wrote:
Kakarat wrote:

Sorry quoted you only to get you to look at this post. Any reactions u can share about reaction unowhere about first-line weapons operated by Frontlyin Al-Lies? I imagine that there was some book-throwing and dog-kicking and some choice words used behind closed doors...
Global-level insult with $$$B consequences, isn't it?

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 04 Mar 2019 13:03

IMVHO the IAF needs some emergency buys now...all g2g.
Extra 36 rafale
36 Mki
2 Tejas mk1
2-4 mig 29smt from various stocks

All delivered by 2022 on war footing.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Mar 2019 16:25

Aero India 2019 Ramp view

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Mar 2019 16:30

Surprisingly on the AI Ramp View , I did a close look at Mig-29UPG , Mirage UPG , Mig-27/Jaguar Upgrade and Bison.

All seem to carry Jammers Antenna , ESM Antenna , New Weapons , Bombs etc but not a single upgrade of any of this type carry MAWS not even Tejas or MKI.

I wonder what went through IAF planner mind that they did not add MAWS to the upgrade , IAF lost atleast 1 fighter and 1 Chopper in Kargil due to MANPADS.

Pakistan landscape is a MANPADS rich environment and so will be the many WVR IR capable missile ......Pilots wont have any clue they are under attack much like the vector of the missile approaching it and its ability to take defensive manouver to avoid it.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 05 Mar 2019 19:16

Jaguar Max cockpit display

Source - vkthakur@Twitter

https://twitter.com/vkthakur/status/110 ... 67136?s=19

If it's also developing by any Indian pvt companies, then we are getting benefits of Aerospace Ecosystem developed with Tejas. Anyone knows which companies are supplying these modern Cockpit.

ravikr · Post by **ravikr** » 08 Mar 2019 20:03

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1103 ... 88/photo/1

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 09 Mar 2019 19:07

Karan, is D-29 system installed & operational on MiG-29UPG aircrafts? This article, states that, circa 2013/2014, DARE was not able to install D-29 system on -29 due to not effective synchronisation between DARE & IAF.

Never mind the article title...I will post excerpts relevant to -29 only.
DARE DEVELOPED D-29 ELECTRONIC WARFARE SUITE NOT SUITABLE FOR TEJAS FIGHTER

Electronic warfare (EW) consisting of electronic attack (EA), electronic protection (EP) and electronic warfare support has become an important component of modern warfare. Based on Air HQ ORs in October 2006 for an EW suite for fitment on MiG-29 upgrade aircraft, Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE), Bangalore, proposed in Oct 2007 joint development of a state-of-the-art EW suite (D-29 system) with M/s Elisra, Israel.

MoD sanctioned in March 2010 the project to DARE under Mission Mode for design and development of D-29 system at a cost of Rs. 168.85 crore with a PDC of 33 months. Accordingly, DARE signed in April 2010 a tripartite agreement with the Ministry of Defence, Israel and M/s Elisra at a cost of 26 million USD with a probable date of completion (PDC) of 28 months.

The D-29 system was developed by DARE in March 2013 but it could not be evaluated on the three MiG-29 aircraft received in India without additional modifications, which was necessary to carry out testing of the system.

As per a CAG report, there was lack of synchronisation of upgradation with structural modification (including additional modification) of MiG-29 aircraft and development of D-29 system for the aircraft. In response to an audit query (October 2014) regarding absence of EW suite (D-29) on operational capability of MiG- 29 aircraft, Air HQ stated (October 2014) that absence of EW system in upgraded MiG-29 aircraft was an operational limitation. In response to the CAG audit observation (December 2014) regarding non-synchronisation of the activities and consequent delay in proving the D-29 system on MiG-29 aircraft, DARE stated that delay in completion of up-gradation of aircraft was beyond the control of laboratory and testing of the developed D-29 system was delayed for want of aircraft.

For operational limitation, DARE stated that ‘Tarang’ 1B RWR would be used in absence of D-29 system. Reply may be seen in light of the fact that ‘Tarang’ 1B RWR was without a Special Protection Jammer (SPJ), because of which, IAF projected the requirement for D-29 system. Therefore, ‘Tarang’ IB RWR cannot be treated as a substitute for an effective EW system.

Thus, evaluation of the D-29 system on MiG-29 aircraft developed by DARE under Mission Mode has been pending since March 2013. Further, though Air HQ admitted in Oct 2014 that the absence of an EW suite was an operational limitation in MiG-29 aircraft, delay by IAF/DARE in evaluating the D-29 system only reduces its utilisation as the upgraded MiG-29 aircraft has a Total Technical Life of 20 years only.

I am getting confused about what is actually there on 29UPG.

This link (Mig-29 UPG:- India’s Lightweight Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft) states that MiG-29UPG uses Virgilius Family Jammers.

UPG have better Jamming Capabilities with Virgilius Family Jammers This very same suite is now on board on Eurofighter EF-2000. In fact, Virgilius was originally developed for the EF-2000’s IADS suite. Apart from the SPECTRA, this the only AESA-based airborne internal directional jamming system available for export.

I couldn't find any corroborating info from other websites.

I understand the sensitivities (timing etc) about exact info and totally understand if you are not inclined in providing answers at the moment.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Mar 2019 21:30

Zynda, yes its the timing. We can always discuss this later.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Mar 2019 22:18

IIRC Virgilius Family Jammers was proposed for MMRCA Mig-35 proposal an AESA based jammers.

29UPG will use DARE/ELTA 8222 jammers the DARE jammer also seems to use AESA

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 09 Mar 2019 23:10

Iirc it is not an elta based ew suite but Italian electronnica aesa jammer can't remember the designation. Sounds very similar to elta ..

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 10 Mar 2019 18:37

AM Tipinis on the Rafale deal and how it is a game changer
https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2019/ ... e-iaf.html

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Mar 2019 00:48

https://www.opindia.com/2019/03/compreh ... ssion=true

Rakesh Have this added to IAF page.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 Mar 2019 05:57

ramana wrote:https://www.opindia.com/2019/03/compreh ... ssion=true

Rakesh Have this added to IAF page.

Will have to ask Jagan. A very good write up by Rohit Vats.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 Mar 2019 06:01

Please continue all Rafale discussions in the Vayusena Rafale thread. Thank You.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Mar 2019 10:32

Guys just saw Rakesh's post above. All further R related discussions go to the Rafale thread.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Mar 2019 17:39

110 hardened shelters for IAF fighter jets to be built close to Pakistan and China borders
https://www.aninews.in/news/national/ge ... 312125234/

110 more superhard HAS have been approved @ 5000cr.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 12 Mar 2019 23:07

suryag wrote:AM Tipinis on the Rafale deal and how it is a game changer
https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2019/ ... e-iaf.html

If we had Rafale, it would have destroyed 12 of Pakistan's 24 fighter jets, says former IAF chief

Former Chief of Air Staff, Air Marshal A Y Tipnis said that if the IAF had Rafale, then it would have destroyed at least half of Pakistan's fighter jets. Speaking at the Aaj Tak Security Summit, here in New Delhi, he said that India needs more squadrons in the Indian Air Force.

"The aim of the 24 Pakistan jets was to attack Srinagar, Awantipora base. If India had Rafale at that time, IAF would have destroyed at least 12 of them. Rafale will boost the morale of IAF," Air Marshal AY Tipnis said.

The former IAF said that we need a grand strategy to tackle terrorism."India should not remain silent. This strategy should not change with the change in government. It should move in a uniform direction", said the Air Marshal.

He also said that India needs to knock off cultural and sports ties with Pakistan to put pressure on the country.

"Terrorists are a law onto themselves in Pakistan. It is a mode of employment in Pakistan. This climate of immunity to terrorists by the government needs to be withdrawn," the former IAF chief said.
General Bikram Singh, former army chief, was also present at the event. He said that India needs to strike the beehive as Pakistan will never walk its talk.

This comes after the Indian Air Force said that they conducted aerial strikes at Jaish-e-Mohammad terror camps in Pakistan's Balakot, killing a "large number" of terrorists. Reportedly, the air strike was done to avenge the deaths of CRPF personnel in a convoy by a vehicle-borne suicide bomber on February 14, in the Pulwama district of Jammu and Kashmir.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Mar 2019 23:21

That sort of statement from Chief is misleading at best and a politically loaded one of Rafale would have destroyed 12 of PAF 24 fighters.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 13 Mar 2019 23:05

Austin wrote:That sort of statement from Chief is misleading at best and a politically loaded one of Rafale would have destroyed 12 of PAF 24 fighters.

Correct statement would have been "with Mig 35 IAF would destroyed 22 out of 24 PAF fighters". With the caveat that Mig 35s were operable at the time of the attack......

Just pulling your leg Austin!!!

manoj_niketa · Post by **manoj_niketa** » 14 Mar 2019 00:03

Something very interesting thing i ever heard from Aviator Anil Chopra about 1971 attack on USS Enterprise
https://twitter.com/Chopsyturvey/status ... 3774339072

nam · Post by **nam** » 14 Mar 2019 00:08

Austin wrote:That sort of statement from Chief is misleading at best and a politically loaded one of Rafale would have destroyed 12 of PAF 24 fighters.

It may be political statement and probably a bit of a hyperbola, however with Meteor, we had better chance of hitting the PAF jet in chase, compared to rocket powered one. Even if the jets fly upwards to bleed BVR energy.

I am of the view IAF will now push hard for Meteor or SDFR be integrated on Su30, as lot of future fights with PAF will be around LoC and catching fleeing jets.