Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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shiv
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby shiv » 10 Feb 2018 19:59

tsarkar wrote:If a girl crosses a busy road, the motorist brakes well in advance and stops to ogle the girl. Especially if the girl is a power dressed corporate.

Since I live in Blr and have driven here every day for the last 30 years I can add to this. It's not just about the men. Many girls expect that men will slow down for them to ogle at them and they can cross the road casually. They simply step onto the path of an oncoming car. For this reason I speed up and try and make them pee in their pants - braking at the last minute just like you say people do for men. It is dangerous jaywalking. I do admit Blr roads are bad for pedestrians - I have been using Public transport for over a year - walking at least 1.5 to 2 km a day. It's not pleasant but there is no need to take the risks that pedestrians take. There is no option but to wait for a good chance to cross. That is the advice I would give to children.

This thread has gone completely OT and can be renamed nukkad.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Indranil » 11 Feb 2018 06:22

Okay. No more on this.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 11 Feb 2018 09:36

Do services have a security desk to whom you report unauthorized contacts?
Such a desk could have mitigated this and probably fed some juicy stuff.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Haridas » 12 Feb 2018 13:28

Akshay Kapoor wrote:When Subedar Major Taught NDA Cadets a Good Lesson About Nishan
By
Raghav Gakhar -
November 21, 2017
0
18305

NDA Cadets from the early to mid eighties will remember the imposing frame of SM Darbara Singh. During the rehearsal for the Passing out Parade in 1985, the cadets were in a particularly rebellious mood. The noise did not die down even when the Nishan (Presidential Colours awarded to NDA) was brought into the QM fort, and this was a serious matter indeed, for the Nishan is held in high esteem by the cadet community.

The insult to the Nishan did not go down well with Subedar Major Darbara Singh. With his measured steps he stepped up to the podium and with a voice heavy with anger and gruff with emotions, he asked the cadets to lend him their ears.
Mules carrying ammunition over a mountain pass during 1962 War.

Subedar Major Darbara Singh “Cadets, I have served in the Indian Army for 23 years. I have seen the 1962 operations, the 1965 and 1971 wars as a combatant. The Nishan that you have not acknowledged today, stands for me and countless others who have taken up the profession of arms and given their youth and lives for the honour of being given an opportunity to salute the Nishan, as the symbol of the supreme sacrifice made by our martyrs.

I will tell you a story that might indicate to you the feelings that we soldiers have for the Nishan. The SM drew a deep breath and continued, In this very academy we have a hut of remembrance,where the names of all the former alumni of this institution who have fallen in action are inscribed on the wall, I have been in this academy for the past three years and I have been able to enter that hut only once.

Because written on the wall is one name, Lt Palta of the 4th Battalion the Sikh regiment.

During the 1962 China War, my Paltan was posted in the Tawang sector. I was deployed right on the border, and my section commander was the same Lt Palta whose name is there on the wall in the hut of remembrance.

On the fateful day of 15 Nov 1962, the Chinese attacked our post and we were told to fight back to the last man, last bullet. Lt Palta was personally leading the fight back. It was a harrowing time, we were outnumbered, out gunned and desperately short of ammunition.

Yet we soldiered on , because Lt Palta did not know any other way.

Sometime during the night. Lt Palta was hit in the face by a mortar, the explosion severed his head from his body and the headless body was thrown on me. The enemy overran the post as soon as the officer was dead and I, 17 years old with 11 months of service, fighting a bloody skirmish with the enemy and out of ammunition, was hiding under the dead body of my section commander.

The blood from Lt Palta’s body soaked my beard and chest and the enemy, thinking that I was dead, did not bother to even take me as a POW. Through the night I lay there, in the tattered remains of my post, freezing in the Himalayan cold.

All my comrades dead, and the dead body of that heroic officer shielding me. It took me three days to wash off the blood from my face, but in my mind, the blood of Lt Palta is still there, warm and caking slowly.

I will carry this blood to my funeral pyre.” The SM’s voice became gruffer with verbalized emotion, “When I entered the hut of remembrance the first time, I saw Lt Palta’s name and picture on the wall.

In an instance I was transported back in time to 1962 and felt his cold stiff body on top of mine and his blood congealing on my face. Till date I haven’t been able to enter the hut again.

” Cadets, its for officers like these that the academy has been given the Nishan. It has been won by the blood of ex NDAofficers and it stands for all that is good and pure in these horrible times; I will not permit you to insult the Nishan and Lt Palta as long as I have breath.”

So saying the SM stepped off the dais and strode out of the QM fort in fragile silence. The silence of the QM fort was shattered only by the echoing word of of command of the parade commander some eight minutes later, ordering the passing out parade to coil its sinuous way out of the QM fort in to the drill square.

The Nishan is nothing but a piece of cloth for those who see it as such, but for Subedar Major Darbara Singh of the Ninth Battalion of the Sikh Regiment of the Indian Army, and countless others like him, it stood for Lt Palta and a cold winter night when a young Lieutenant died trying to protect and lead his men in to battle and to supreme honour.

It stood for a quintessential Indian army officer, who, even when dead, continued to shield a young frightened soldier who was out of ammunition and at the end of his wits.

A breed of officers who gave these grizzled old men the self-esteem and sense of honour, of belonging to a family, of mattering, of esprit-de-corps, and in the end, a way of life. And that, in my opinion is true leadership.

Thanks for sharing. Inspire life into armchair Generals.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Vips » 13 Feb 2018 18:47

Acquired from scrap, restored Dakota to join IAF fleet in March.

A fully-refurbished World War II-era Dakota, belonging to the vintage of the iconic military transport aircraft that played a crucial role in the 1947 Indo-Pak War, is all set to be flown to India next month, to become a proud possession of the IAF.
The plane, which underwent a six-year-long restoration in the UK, will join the vintage fleet at the Hindon Air Base in Uttar Pradesh.

The aircraft is a gift from Rajya Sabha MP Rajeev Chandrasekar to the India Air Force, and at a function held here today, the Bengaluru lawmaker ceremonially handed over the papers and deeds to Air Chief Marshal B S Dhanoa.

Hailing the qualities of the aircraft, the Chief of Air Staff, said, "They were introduced in the 1930s... As part of the 12th Squadron of the then Royal Indian Air Force (RIAF), Dakotas were the main workhorse in Ladakh and Northeast region. And, they intervened in time to save the Valley of Kashmir (in 1947)."

"Military historian Pushpindar Singh had said that Dakota is the reason why Poonch is still with us. They helped in hastening the fall of Dhaka and liberation of Bangladesh. And, in 2014, we had given a shell on the Dakota to the Bangladesh Air Force," Dhanoa said.

Douglas DC3 aircraft, better known as the Dakota, carried the troops of the Army's 1 Sikh Regiment to Srinagar on October 27, 1947, during the first Indo-Pak War, besides carrying supplies and refugees.

The Dakota, christened 'Parashurama', will bear the tail number VP 905, the same as the first such aircraft in the Indian service that transported the troops during the 1947 war to Jammu and Kashmir.

Chandrasekar's gift, will make it the first vintage Dakota for the IAF, which currently, has a Tiger Moth and a Harvard aircraft stationed at the Hindon Air Base.

"The Dakota is currently kept at Coventry airfield in the UK. It is set to fly next month. The vintage plane will traverse over 4,800 nautical miles. From the UK, the route will be through France, Italy, Greece, Egypt, Oman, in that order. In India, the first stop would be Jamnagar, from where it will fly to Hindon," he told mediapersons on the sidelines.

According to a short film screened at the function, the aircraft was acquired from scrap and underwent six years of painstaking restoration in the UK, and the IAF had technically accepted it late last month.

The IAF has helped the MP in getting the aircraft registered and in upgrade of the navigation system.

"Since it has to fly through multiple foreign airspace, we helped them in getting permission," the IAF chief said.

In his address, he had called the gifting of the Dakota to the IAF a "great gesture" for funding the acquisition, repair and eventual ferrying of the aircraft.

The MP said, "I acquired it around 2011 and this gift is a permanent way of honouring the men and their machines, who make us all proud on Tuesday as a nation," adding, "finding and restoring this bird was a huge challenge".

Chandrasekhar's father Air Commodore (retd) M K Chandrasekhar, who was present at the function, was a Dakota pilot in the IAF, and the lawmaker said, "the seeds were sown perhaps very young."

"My father is 84 now. And, I grew up seeing him flying Dakota. So, my passion for planes is natural. And, it is on behalf of my father that this gift is being made to the IAF, in dedication to the air warriors. And, I hope it will inspire future air warriors," he said.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 15 Feb 2018 03:48

Nice tribute to his father.
Wish we all had money to pay our pitru runa like that.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 15 Feb 2018 03:52

Significant interview by ACM Raha (R)

Rakesh wrote:‘Old IAF jets need to be replaced urgently’
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 893869.cms

Air Chief Marshal (retired) Arup Raha — Chief of Air Staff of the Indian Air Force from 2013 to 2016 — spoke to TOI on myriad issues ranging from the Rafale deal to the need to procure modern defence equipment for the country. Raha also stressed the necessity to involve the private sector in defence manufacturing to augment India’s strategic strengths. He warned that cumbersome procurement procedures could affect India’s defence capabilities.

Q. What do you make of the controversy surrounding the Rafale deal?
Ans: It is unfortunate that whenever a defence deal is signed for boosting the capabilities of our armed forces, such controversies paint everybody black with a broad brush. [u]Be it Bofors or Rafale, the truth is we require these deals to defend ourselves.[/u] Once you begin raising doubts about the process, we lose confidence, the system loses confidence, and in the end our country loses confidence in us. Then no bureaucrat is ready to recommend or sign any new contract, fearing a reprimand from investigating agencies even after retiring from service.

Q. The UPA government had signed a contract for 126 Rafale fighter aircraft. The NDA government plans to buy just 36 aircraft. Why is there such a gap in numbers?

Ans: Had 126 Rafale aircraft been inducted, it would have been the best thing for the country. However, the deal fell through due to some differences between Dassault and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) which was to manufacture the aircraft in India. Whatever the reason — quality control or costing — the deal came unstuck. During the UPA regime, the deal was that India will buy the first 18 aircraft in “fly away” condition. But now we are getting 36 aircraft straight off the shelf. Many don’t know that we will get a weapon fleet, maintenance training, performance-based logistics, and support-training infrastructure, which were not planned earlier.

Q. As Air Chief Marshal, were you taken into confidence before the Rafale deal was signed?
Ans: I had a discussion with the defence minister at the time, Manohar Parrikar. We interacted on a daily basis. The government thought it needed to do something with utmost urgency or the Air Force would be affected. As a result it took a decision and I came to know that the deal had been signed.

Q. How many squadrons does the IAF have?
Ans: As you may know, many aircraft in our fleets are old. We are replacing them. The numbers to be replaced are large. The Government of India has approved an authorized strength of 42 squadrons according to the threat perception. It will take time to replace all old aircrafts but there are many parallel schemes. Procurement of fifth-generation fighter aircraft from Russia is underway which could be another line of combat strength.

Q. Did you note any difference in the procurement process under the UPA and NDA regimes?
Ans: Every government is trying to refine the procurement process, though it is very slow. It is a process-driven system and is not outcome-driven. The current government is taking the outcome-driven line, though not much is happening on the ground. I expected much faster certification of policies. All these years we ignored the private sector in defence manufacturing. Make in India will succeed only when we involve the private sector in defence.

Q. How well are we placed against China?

Ans: There is no problem. The IAF is strong. The army on the ground is doing well. We have tremendous capabilities and there is no cause for concern over any threat. But yes, we want replacement of outdated equipment.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 15 Feb 2018 03:55

Basically
- The 36 Rafale are with weapons and all from France in fly away condition. No lafada with local mfg issues.
- Another line of aircraft from Russia in the pipeline.
- No worries with China as both IA and IAF are strong.
- Concern is old aircraft replacement.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 15 Feb 2018 04:54

...
Q. How many squadrons does the IAF have?
Ans: As you may know, many aircraft in our fleets are old. We are replacing them. The numbers to be replaced are large. The Government of India has approved an authorized strength of 42 squadrons according to the threat perception. It will take time to replace all old aircrafts but there are many parallel schemes. Procurement of fifth-generation fighter aircraft from Russia is underway which could be another line of combat strength.
...

Nothing about Tejas filling in the numbers!

The other thing is he doesn’t seem to realize GoI limited budget is what made the 126 MMRCA unattainable ... and that too without all the support stuff (required for everyday flying) in the new 36 deal. To me, even with all the bureaucratic steps in place there seems to be a disconnect between users’ acquisition choices and the budget that is made available by GoI for such acquisitions. Each one works in their own silos.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Viv S » 15 Feb 2018 05:04

From Business Standard. Full article's not up on Broadsword yet.

Capability jump: IAF looks to buy fifth-generation F-35 fighter
It is learnt the IAF wants to procure 126 of the variant called F-35A - the air force version of the fighter that incorporates "conventional take-off and landing"
Ajai Shukla

In what would be a huge capability jump, the Indian Air Force (IAF) is increasingly interested in procuring the American F-35 Lightning II for its depleting fighter fleet. Business Standard learns the IAF top brass is formally requesting for a classified briefing by the F-35’s prime builder, Lockheed Martin, on the capabilities of the sophisticated, fifth-generation fighter developed under the US Joint Strike Fighter programme.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 15 Feb 2018 05:31

^^^
Shukla has always argued for F-35 from what I remember during the MMRCA saga.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby NRao » 15 Feb 2018 06:37

I would wait till April, for any dust to settle. Meanwhile, another data point:

At Lockheed Martin’s helm, Vivek Lall set to get India-US defence ties in full-fire mode

Feb 13, 2018.

Nothing new, outside of:

It appears there is great interest by both Indian Air Force and Indian Navy for the world’s only operational stealth fighter Lockheed’s F-35 and a growing inclination in Washington to offer it to Delhi.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 15 Feb 2018 06:46

Viv S wrote:From Business Standard. Full article's not up on Broadsword yet.

Business Standard is so WEIRD. I just read the entire article this morning on that very same link.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby NRao » 15 Feb 2018 06:58

Defence sales at an all time high with India: Top US commander

Feb 14, 2018. PTI reporting:

"At the moment, India is considering a number of US systems for purchase, all of which USPACOM fully supports: the F-16 for Indiaâ€[TM]s large single-engine, multi-role fighter acquisition program; the F/A-18E for Indiaâ€[TM]s multi-engine, carried-based fighter purchase; a reorder of 12-15 P-8Is; a potential purchase of SeaGuardian UAS; MH-60R multi-role sea-based helicopter; and F-35 Joint Strike," Harris said.


US Pacific Command Commander Admiral Harry B Harris told the House Armed Services Committee during a Congressional hearing on Indo-Pacific region that US-India strategic partnership continues to advance at a historic pace and has the potential to be the most consequential bilateral relationship of the 21st century.


And the importance of "wait till April":

The US Pacific Command will sustain the momentum of the strategic relationship generated by the President-Prime Minister-level and the emerging 2+2 Ministerial Dialogue through strengthening the military-to-military relationship and working toward additional enabling agreements to enhance interoperability.


Just BTW, there has been a couple of suggestions that this be a 4+4, to include Japan and Australia, in the Indo-US 2+2.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cybaru » 15 Feb 2018 07:01

a reorder of 12-15 P-8Is; a potential purchase of SeaGuardian UAS;


That's a game changer. Another 12-15 + Seagaurdian or better UAS would be awesome.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 15 Feb 2018 07:07

A repeat order of P-8I is long overdue for the IN. Just goes to show how serious the Chinese surface and sub surface threat is.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cybaru » 15 Feb 2018 07:11

Add 20-30 Tritons along with 30 P8I ... Own the Indian Ocean.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 15 Feb 2018 07:39

The USN is coming to the end of its P-8A acquisition program so it is logical to place top up orders and for new customers to jump aboard to get the same economies of scale for many of the unique components. Things are likely to get more expensive as suppliers reduce production rates and scale back their capacity.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 15 Feb 2018 07:56

the indian ocean is so vast and deep we can at best protect our sea lanes and monitor submarine activity within some vital areas but the area between sri lanka to antarctica is a limitless sea.....miles deep....anyone could station SSBNs there for a strike and none would really know.

the paucity of humans poking around is probably why blue whale colonies are seen off the lankan coast , way north of what one would expect of a sub-polar creature.

we need some form of OTH radar & 48 hr endurance drones to monitor things cheaply , keeping all the P8 for ASW role.

at present even the global hawk/mq4c top out around 30 hours.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cybaru » 15 Feb 2018 08:01

brar_w wrote:The USN is coming to the end of its P-8A acquisition program so it is logical to place top up orders and for new customers to jump aboard to get the same economies of scale for many of the unique components. Things are likely to get more expensive as suppliers reduce production rates and scale back their capacity.


They have a long way to go but yes, its good to get all orders in.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 15 Feb 2018 08:35

Viv S wrote:From Business Standard. Full article's not up on Broadsword yet.

Capability jump: IAF looks to buy fifth-generation F-35 fighter
It is learnt the IAF wants to procure 126 of the variant called F-35A - the air force version of the fighter that incorporates "conventional take-off and landing"
Ajai Shukla

In what would be a huge capability jump, the Indian Air Force (IAF) is increasingly interested in procuring the American F-35 Lightning II for its depleting fighter fleet. Business Standard learns the IAF top brass is formally requesting for a classified briefing by the F-35’s prime builder, Lockheed Martin, on the capabilities of the sophisticated, fifth-generation fighter developed under the US Joint Strike Fighter programme.


So, it looks like the US air chief's visit had marketing undertones, after all. :)

It will be a govt to govt deal so he is quite justified in doing so.

poor shooklaw, trumped again in his middleman ambitions.

This govt will make doubly sure that this chappie is not anywhere on the scene if any deal goes through with the US on any defence supplies.

Also, we need to keep the lines open with russia which supplies us stuff the amrekis would never, ever agree to give us

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cybaru » 15 Feb 2018 08:38

Either is marketing or hoodwinking by getting us to sign some stupid 4 letter treaty.. :)

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby NRao » 15 Feb 2018 09:02

chetak wrote:
Viv S wrote:From Business Standard. Full article's not up on Broadsword yet.

Capability jump: IAF looks to buy fifth-generation F-35 fighter


So, it looks like the US air chief's visit had marketing undertones, after all. :)

It will be a govt to govt deal so he is quite justified in doing so.

poor shooklaw, trumped again in his middleman ambitions.

This govt will make doubly sure that this chappie is not anywhere on the scene if any deal goes through with the US on any defence supplies.

Also, we need to keep the lines open with russia which supplies us stuff the amrekis would never, ever agree to give us


PACOM, with USN/USMC - not USAF. And IN in India. April, then May are very imp months.

Let use see where the F-35 goes. Between the teens, it is the F-18 (IN) that is important.

Rest (other than the P-8Is, etc) is all fluff.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby shiv » 15 Feb 2018 09:26

Have the Rafales arrived yet? Or are we still modifying their anticipated home bases to accept the new tech they bring?

Meanwhile in Yamerika
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-bu ... 005?page=2
The USS America underwent a series of intense modifications in order to ensure that the weapons and sensors and synchronized with the Joint Strike Fighter and that flight deck can withstand the heat of the F-35B vertical take-offs-and-landings.

Navy engineers are installing a new heat-resistant thermally sprayed non-skid, which is designed to prevent long-term heat damage to the flight deck and underlying structure, adding intercostal structural members below landing spots seven and nine. This reduces stress on flight deck, and integrating the flight deck with support equipment, sensors and weapons.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Viv S » 15 Feb 2018 12:40

Full article up now. No surprise that LM would prefer to sell the F-16; its a considerably more lucrative proposition for them than the F-35, with the margins for the latter being quite narrow.

Capability jump: IAF looks to buy fifth-generation F-35 fighter

By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 15th Feb 18

In what would be a huge capability jump, the Indian Air Force (IAF) is increasingly interested in procuring the American F-35 Lightning II for its depleting fighter fleet.

Business Standard learns the IAF top brass is formally requesting for a classified briefing by the F-35’s prime builder, Lockheed Martin, on the capabilities of the sophisticated, fifth-generation fighter developed under the US Joint Strike Fighter programme.

The US government has not formally offered the F-35 to India. A classified briefing would require formal clearance from the US Department of Defence (the Pentagon) and the State Department. The grant of such a clearance would be an important first step towards permitting the sale of F-35s to India.

It is learnt the IAF wants to procure 126 of the variant called F-35A – the air force version of the fighter that incorporates “conventional take-off and landing”, or CTOL. Another variant, the F-35B, incorporating “short take-off and vertical landing”, or (STOVL), has been developed for the US Marine Corps. A third version, developed for the US Navy, incorporates “catapult assisted take-off but arrested recovery (CATOBAR).

The Indian Navy, which has never ruled out operating the F-35 off Indian aircraft carriers, has received a briefing on the F-35 as far back as 2010, Lockheed Martin official Orville Prins told this correspondent. However, at that stage, the F-35 was still grappling with serious development challenges.

The F-35’s affordability is also attractive for New Delhi. In contrast to the bare-bones price of $115 million for each Rafale fighter (with India-specific enhancements, spares, logistics and weapons all extra), the F-35A cost customers $94.6 million last February. Lockheed Martin says it will reduce the cost to $80 million by 2020.

A fifth-generation fighter is characterised by a “stealth design”, making it far more difficult for radar to detect; “supercruise”, or the ability to fly at supersonic speeds without engaging engine afterburners; and highly networked avionics that detect and engage enemy aircraft using a range of sensors and weapons across the battle-space.

The only true fifth-generation fighters in service are the US Air Force’s F-22 Raptor and the F-35 Lightning II. China is developing two stealth fighters – the J-20 Chengdu and the J-31 Shenyang. Russia is developing its own fifth-generation fighter, the PAK-FA, and has offered India a partnership role in developing the PAK-FA into the eponymous Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) for the IAF. Negotiations on roles and costing are over, but the Indian defence ministry is yet to accept.

The United Progressive Alliance (UPA) defence minister, AK Antony, had ruled out buying the F-35, stating that India would meet its short-term requirement of fifth-generation fighters with the FGFA. For the IAF’s long-term needs, the Defence R&D Organisation is developing the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

Sources close to the Pentagon say India would not be sold the F-35 as long as it is partnering Russia in the FGFA co-development project. That is because Washington would guard against the leakage of F-35 technology into the FGFA.

Senior officers say the IAF is not enthused about the FGFA project. They point out the F-35 is further advanced in development and has already entered service with the USAF and six-seven air forces of American allies.

For Lockheed Martin, an Indian request for the F-35 would create a dilemma. The US company would rather have the IAF buy the F-16 Block 70, which it has offered to build in India in partnership with Tata Advanced Systems Ltd (TASL).

For Lockheed Martin, that would keep alive the F-16 assembly line, which has long functioned from Fort Worth, Texas, and has now moved temporarily to Greenville, South Carolina, where it is building a $2.8 billion order from Bahrain for 19 F-16V fighters.

The Fort Worth facility has been made over to building the F-35, of which over 3,000 are already on order.

Meanwhile, the assembly line in India would build new F-16s for the IAF, as well as for orders that Lockheed Martin expects from southeast Asian and central European countries. It would also provide overhaul and upgrade facilities for the estimated 3,000 F-16 fighters in service worldwide, in some 25 air forces.

As this newspaper reported (December 16, “Lockheed Martin says F-16 orders flowing in”) Lockheed Martin calculates that an Indian line would benefit, in the medium term, from new fighter orders worth $16 billion, and $6.5 billion in upgrading old F-16s.

Simultaneously, American jobs would get a lease of life, as F-16 suppliers in the US would continue feeding into the integration line in India. At least 50 per cent of the F-16 by value would continue to be made in America.

For all these reasons, Lockheed Martin is painting the F-16 Block 70 sale to the IAF as a stepping stone to eventually obtaining the F-35.

While the US has supplied the F-35 only to close allies, Washington insiders say India’s recent designation as a Major Defence Partner (MDP), and a groundswell of goodwill towards New Delhi, make conditions propitious for an Indian request. An indicator is the recent permission granted for the sale to India of the Sea Guardian unmanned aerial vehicle – so far sold only to close allies.

In 2011, the influential US Senate Armed Services Committee requested the Pentagon to study the feasibility of an F-35 sale to India. Senators John Cornyn (co-chair of the Senate India Caucus) and Joseph Lieberman spearheaded the proposal.

But US officials in Washington also complain about fatigue at New Delhi’s tardiness in following up discussions with formal requests. The mood in the Pentagon, say these officials, is: “Let New Delhi ask for the F-35. Then we’ll take things forward.”

The defence ministry and the IAF have not responded to an emailed request for comments.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 16 Feb 2018 03:29

^^^
There won’t be 3000 F-16 overhauling India. Pure BS. Most have retired or will once they get their F-35. American companies will continue with those support activities of remaining. Plus, various F-16 production facilities exist in Turkey, South Korea and others outside of the US.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 16 Feb 2018 03:47

Cybaru wrote:
a reorder of 12-15 P-8Is; a potential purchase of SeaGuardian UAS;


That's a game changer. Another 12-15 + Seagaurdian or better UAS would be awesome.

While adding more MPA (and standardization) are good news, the potential problem I see is India being too dependent on the US for its entire MPA fleet. Need to be sanctions proof to some degree, IMO.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cybaru » 16 Feb 2018 03:52

I think the platform itself is reasonably sanction proof. If the MTBF of the main radar is low, that could be a cause for concern.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 16 Feb 2018 05:21

Snake oil salesmen in US hoary tradition.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby tsarkar » 16 Feb 2018 16:45

Vips wrote:Acquired from scrap, restored Dakota to join IAF fleet in March. The aircraft is a gift from Rajya Sabha MP Rajeev Chandrasekar to the India Air Force, and at a function held here today, the Bengaluru lawmaker ceremonially handed over the papers and deeds to Air Chief Marshal B S Dhanoa.

This gentleman is the only politician with a keen interest and understanding of military matters. May his tribe increase and he takes up a leadership role in the Executive & Legislature.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 16 Feb 2018 20:38

he has a massive villa in koramangala. now overshadowed by a even more massive new villa behind it by someone else.
seems to be independently wealthy.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Vips » 16 Feb 2018 20:49

He made his money when he sold the mobile business (erstwhile BPL Mobile and its many avatars). The guys is quite an achiever. He was a part of the team under Vinod Dham which built the Pentium Chip

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby NRao » 17 Feb 2018 19:41

Fifth-Generation Fighter Aircraft for the IAF: A Mirage or Reality?

By Gp Capt Joseph Noronha
Issue Vol. 32.4 Oct-Dec 2017 | Date : 14 Feb , 2018

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 17 Feb 2018 23:11

^from the report:
Yet, most analysts believe it will take time for the PLAAF to build a large fleet of fifth-generation fighters
,

Hmm I remember folks being similarly nonchalant and skeptical about the j10 around 2005. But in about 10 years, they built about 400 of these. I would not doubt Chinese manufacturing expertise, their persistence, not their will.

The typical issue raised in addition to above is that it's very hard to get a 5g bird or a cbg right and takes years of experience. While this could be true, this is a matter of practice ...... Do it enough of times and you'll figure it out. to count on it is playing with fire.

I'll give the Chinese 5-10 years tops to sort this out, and then all of a sudden you'll be faced with a fleet of a few 100 stealth birds. And then there'll be dhoti shivering all over the place.

IAFs decision doesn't seem too bad. Strengthen the defensive posture by investing in high end Sams like the s400 that is supposedly able to counter 5g platforms and keep buying top end 4g fighters like the Rafale. In every purchase emphasize reliability and hardware with minimal debugging needs.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 20 Feb 2018 07:32

Air war in 1971- A view from the other side

Air war in 1971: A view from the other side

By Admiral Arun Prakash (Retd)

Disregarding the counsel of wise men, from Herodotus to George Santayana,
Indians have consistently ignored the importance of reading, writing and
learning from history. So, when retired US Air Force Brigadier "Chuck"
Yeager, head of the US Military Assistance Advisory Group in Islamabad
during the 1971 War, says, in his autobiography that the "Pakistanis
whipped the Indians' asses in the sky... the Pakistanis scored a
three-to-one kill ratio, knocking out 102 Russian-made Indian jets and
losing 34 airplanes of their own...", we are left fumbling for a response.
Other Western "experts" have alleged that, in 1971, the IAF was supported
by Tupolev-126 early warning aircraft flown by Soviet crews, who supposedly
jammed PAF radars and homed-in Indian aircraft.

Where does one seek authentic information about India's contemporary
military history? The Ministry of Defence (MoD) website mentions a History
Division, but the output of this organisation is not displayed, and it
seems to have gone into hibernation after a brief spell of activity. A
Google search reveals copies of two typed documents, circa 1984, on the
Internet, titled "History of the 1965 War" and "History of the 1971 War" --
neither of which is designated as "official history".

A chapter of the latter document deals with the air-war in the Western
theatre, and opens with a comparison of the opposing air forces. The 1971
inventory of the IAF is assessed at 625 combat aircraft, while the PAF
strength is estimated at about 275. After providing day-by-day accounts of
air-defence, counter-air close-support and maritime air-operations, the
"History of the 1971 War" (or HoW) compares aircraft losses, on both sides,
and attempts a cursory analysis of the air war.

The IAF is declared as having utilised its forces "four times as well as
the PAF" and being "definitely on the way to victory" at the time of
ceasefire. Commending the PAF for having managed to survive in a war
against an "enemy double its strength", it uses a boxing metaphor, to add a
(left-handed) compliment: "...by its refusal to close with its stronger
enemy, it at least remained on its feet, and in the ring, when the bell
sounded..."

This is the phrase that Pakistani Air Commodore M. Kaiser Tufail (Retd) has
picked up for the title of his very recent book: "In the Ring and on its
Feet" (Ferozsons Pvt Ltd., Lahore, 2017) about the PAF's role in the 1971
Indo-Pak war. Commissioned in 1975, this former Pakistani fighter-pilot is
a historian and bold commentator on strategic affairs. Currently
unavailable in India, the book may, prima facie, be accepted as authentic,
because the author asserts that in two of his appointments, he was the
"custodian of PAF's war records", which he was, officially, permitted to
access in writing the book.

Tufail starts with an attempt to dispel the "ludicrous Indian fabrication
about Pakistan having initiated the war", and offers the thesis that since
war was already in progress, the ineffective 3rd December PAF pre-emptive
attacks were merely "first strikes" meant to overburden the IAF's
retaliatory capability. Apart from this half-hearted attempt at
obfuscation, the rest of Tufail's narrative is refreshingly candid, free of
hyperbole and -- one hopes -- reliable. Having served in an IAF fighter
squadron during the 1971 war, I was fascinated by Tufail's account, and
share a few of his frank insights into wartime events in this article.

Tufail suggests that the wartime PAF Chief, Air Marshal Rahim Khan, was an
inarticulate, short-tempered and lacklustre personality, who, at this
crucial juncture, chose his two most important advisers -- the ACAS
(Operations) and the Deputy Chief -- from the ranks of transport pilots.
His problems were compounded by low service morale, due to the massacre of
30 airmen in East Pakistan and defections by Bengali PAF personnel.

As far as the two orders-of-battle are concerned, it is interesting to note
that the HoW figures of 625 combat aircraft for the IAF and 273 for the PAF
are pretty close to Tufail's estimates of 640 and 290 respectively. A fact
not commonly known, in 1971, was that while the IAF's work-horses,
Sukhoi-7s, Hunters, Gnats, HF-24s, Mysteres and Vampires were armed only
with 30/20 mm guns, the opposition had the advantage of air-to-air
missiles. While all PAF western-origin fighters carried Sidewinders or
R-530s, Yeager tells us, "One of my first jobs (in Pakistan) was to help
them put US Sidewinders on their Chinese MiGs... I also worked with their
squadrons and helped them develop combat tactics."

Tufail provides a tabular account of both IAF and PAF aircraft losses, with
pilots' names, squadron numbers and (for PAF aircraft) tail numbers. To my
mind, one particular statistic alone confirms Tufail's objectivity. As the
squadron diarist of IAF's No. 20 Squadron, I recall recording the result of
a Hunter raid on PAF base Murid, on December 8, 1971, as *"one transport,
two fighters (probable) and vehicles destroyed on ground."* In his book,
Tufail confirms that 20 Squadron actually destroyed five F-86 fighters in
this mission -- making it the most spectacularly successful IAF raid of the
war!

Particularly gratifying to read are Tufail's reconstructions, of many
combat missions, which have remained shrouded in doubt and ambiguity for 47
years. Personally, I experienced a sense of closure after reading his
accounts of the final heroic moments of 20 Squadron comrades – Jal Mistry
and K.P. Muralidharan -- as well as fellow naval aviators -- Roy, Sirohi
and Vijayan -- shot down at sea. Tufail also nails the canard about Soviet
Tupolev-126 support to IAF, and describes how it was the clever employment
of IAF MiG-21s to act as "radio-relay posts" that fooled the PAF and
brought our fighters home.

Coming to the "final reckoning", there is only a small difference between
the figures given in the HoW and those provided by Tufail for IAF losses;
both of which make nonsense of Yeager's pompous declarations. According to
the tabulated Pakistani account (giving names of Indian aircrew), the IAF
lost 60 aircraft. The HoW records the IAF's losses in action as 56 aircraft
(43 in the west and 13 in the east).

However, a dichotomy surfaces when it comes to Pakistani losses. While
Tufail lists the tail numbers of only 27 PAF aircraft destroyed, the HoW
mentions IAF claims of 75 PAF aircraft destroyed, but credits only 46 (27
in the west and 19 in the east). Using the "utilisation rate" per aircraft
and "attrition rate", as a percentage of (only) the offensive missions
flown by both air forces, the HoW declares that the IAF's utilisation rate
being almost double, and its attrition rate being half that of the PAF,
"...had the war continued, the IAF would certainly have inflicted a
decisive defeat on the PAF".

Adopting a different approach, Tufail concludes that the overall "attrition
rate" (loss per 100 sorties) for each air force as well as aircraft losses,
as percentage of both IAF and PAF inventories, are numerically equal. Thus,
according to him, "...both air forces were on par... though the IAF flew
many more ground-attack sorties in a vulnerable air and ground
environment". He ends his narrative on a sanguine note, remarking: "The PAF
denied a much stronger IAF... the possibility of delivering a knock-out
punch to it."

Air Commodore Tufail's book clearly demonstrates that there are at least
two good reasons for writing war histories: Lessons are learnt about the
political sagacity underpinning employment of state military power, and
militaries can test the validity of the Principles of War. Sensible
nations, therefore, ensure that history is not replaced by mythology. There
is a whole new crop of young scholar-warriors, like Kaiser Tufail, emerging
in India, eager to record its rich military history. But as long as our
obdurate bureaucracy maintains the inexplicable "omerta" vis-a-vis official
records, this deplorable historical vacuum will persist.

(Admiral Arun Prakash is a former chief of the Indian Navy.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 20 Feb 2018 11:19

chetak wrote:Air war in 1971- A view from the other side

Air war in 1971: A view from the other side

By Admiral Arun Prakash (Retd)


As far as the two orders-of-battle are concerned, it is interesting to note
that the HoW figures of 625 combat aircraft for the IAF and 273 for the PAF
are pretty close to Tufail's estimates of 640 and 290 respectively. A fact
not commonly known, in 1971, was that while the IAF's work-horses,
Sukhoi-7s, Hunters, Gnats, HF-24s, Mysteres and Vampires were armed only
with 30/20 mm guns, the opposition had the advantage of air-to-air
missiles. While all PAF western-origin fighters carried Sidewinders or
R-530s, Yeager tells us, "One of my first jobs (in Pakistan) was to help
them put US Sidewinders on their Chinese MiGs... I also worked with their
squadrons and helped them develop combat tactics."



(Admiral Arun Prakash is a former chief of the Indian Navy.


This has been a long argument on BRF, I always contended that the Americans worked on intergrating the J-6's which is why the PAF could fire the sidewinder missiles, others argued the Chinese/ Pakistanis had done this without American knowledge. Looks like the Americans were in Bed with the Chinese and Pakis in those times.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 20 Feb 2018 12:42

Aditya_V wrote:
chetak wrote:Air war in 1971- A view from the other side



This has been a long argument on BRF, I always contended that the Americans worked on intergrating the J-6's which is why the PAF could fire the sidewinder missiles, others argued the Chinese/ Pakistanis had done this without American knowledge. Looks like the Americans were in Bed with the Chinese and Pakis in those times.


What makes you thing that they aren't, even now??

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 20 Feb 2018 12:53

Well I dont know about that, but there used to Arguments that USA had no role in integrating those Sidewinder's with J-6's, but now the American Govt appointee is claiming his first job was to integrate Sidewinders and develop air combat tactics for them. And remember in 1971, Sidewinders are what Meteor and Amraam D are today, gives you ability to fire at Bombers at Night and makes it much easier to shoot down planes compared to guns only. All we had was the Sidewinder copy AA2 which was inferior in many respects integrated only on the Mig 21 fleet.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby shiv » 20 Feb 2018 14:23

With due respect to Adm Arun Prakash I must comment that when the official historians are not tasked to write official histories of the Indian side - unofficial historians will run riot. Pakistan has consistently gone one step ahead by appointing offcial historians to write unofficial stuff

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kersi » 20 Feb 2018 17:28

Aditya_V wrote:Well I dont know about that, but there used to Arguments that USA had no role in integrating those Sidewinder's with J-6's, but now the American Govt appointee is claiming his first job was to integrate Sidewinders and develop air combat tactics for them. And remember in 1971, Sidewinders are what Meteor and Amraam D are today, gives you ability to fire at Bombers at Night and makes it much easier to shoot down planes compared to guns only. All we had was the Sidewinder copy AA2 which was inferior in many respects integrated only on the Mig 21 fleet.


Any news about the actual performance of AA 2 "Atoll" in IAF service ?


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