Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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Aditya_V
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 20 Feb 2018 18:30

Read the IAF Mig 21 experience in 65 war, the Mig 21's were useless without guns as the AA2 Atoll needed to be released at less than 2G's and not close to the ground, the Pilot's felt like ramming the sabre after that.. Other than Middlecoat's STarfighter I dont think AA2 hit any aircraft.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 20 Feb 2018 18:52

Aditya_V wrote:Read the IAF Mig 21 experience in 65 war, the Mig 21's were useless without guns as the AA2 Atoll needed to be released at less than 2G's and not close to the ground, the Pilot's felt like ramming the sabre after that.. Other than Middlecoat's STarfighter I dont think AA2 hit any aircraft.


any links or reference, saar??

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 21 Feb 2018 02:45

shiv wrote:With due respect to Adm Arun Prakash I must comment that when the official historians are not tasked to write official histories of the Indian side - unofficial historians will run riot. Pakistan has consistently gone one step ahead by appointing offcial historians to write unofficial stuff



Well said.
This Too fail guy has been one of that genre.
Another Is that Brigadier with high angle Bofors story.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 21 Feb 2018 02:48

chetak wrote:Air war in 1971- A view from the other side

Air war in 1971: A view from the other side

By Admiral Arun Prakash (Retd)

...
A chapter of the latter document deals with the air-war in the Western
theatre, and opens with a comparison of the opposing air forces. The 1971
inventory of the IAF is assessed at 625 combat aircraft, while the PAF
strength is estimated at about 275. After providing day-by-day accounts of
air-defence, counter-air close-support and maritime air-operations, the
"History of the 1971 War" (or HoW) compares aircraft losses, on both sides,
and attempts a cursory analysis of the air war.

.....

This is the phrase that Pakistani Air Commodore M. Kaiser Tufail (Retd) has
picked up for the title of his very recent book: "In the Ring and on its
Feet" (Ferozsons Pvt Ltd., Lahore, 2017) about the PAF's role in the 1971
Indo-Pak war.
Commissioned in 1975, this former Pakistani fighter-pilot is
a historian and bold commentator on strategic affairs. Currently
unavailable in India, the book may, prima facie, be accepted as authentic,
because the author asserts that in two of his appointments, he was the
"custodian of PAF's war records", which he was, officially, permitted to
access in writing the book.

Tufail starts with an attempt to dispel the "ludicrous Indian fabrication
about Pakistan having initiated the war", and offers the thesis that since
war was already in progress, the ineffective 3rd December PAF pre-emptive
attacks were merely "first strikes" meant to overburden the IAF's
retaliatory capability. Apart from this half-hearted attempt at
obfuscation, the rest of Tufail's narrative is refreshingly candid, free of
hyperbole and -- one hopes -- reliable. Having served in an IAF fighter
squadron during the 1971 war, I was fascinated by Tufail's account, and
share a few of his frank insights into wartime events in this article.

....
As far as the two orders-of-battle are concerned, it is interesting to note
that the HoW figures of 625 combat aircraft for the IAF and 273 for the PAF
are pretty close to Tufail's estimates of 640 and 290 respectively. A fact
not commonly known, in 1971, was that while the IAF's work-horses,
Sukhoi-7s, Hunters, Gnats, HF-24s, Mysteres and Vampires were armed only
with 30/20 mm guns, the opposition had the advantage of air-to-air
missiles. While all PAF western-origin fighters carried Sidewinders or
R-530s, Yeager tells us, "One of my first jobs (in Pakistan) was to help
them put US Sidewinders on their Chinese MiGs... I also worked with their
squadrons and helped them develop combat tactics."

Tufail provides a tabular account of both IAF and PAF aircraft losses, with
pilots' names, squadron numbers and (for PAF aircraft) tail numbers.
To my
mind, one particular statistic alone confirms Tufail's objectivity. As the
squadron diarist of IAF's No. 20 Squadron, I recall recording the result of
a Hunter raid on PAF base Murid, on December 8, 1971, as *"one transport,
two fighters (probable) and vehicles destroyed on ground."* In his book,
Tufail confirms that 20 Squadron actually destroyed five F-86 fighters in
this mission -- making it the most spectacularly successful IAF raid of the
war!

Particularly gratifying to read are Tufail's reconstructions, of many
combat missions, which have remained shrouded in doubt and ambiguity for 47
years. Personally, I experienced a sense of closure after reading his
accounts of the final heroic moments of 20 Squadron comrades – Jal Mistry
and K.P. Muralidharan -- as well as fellow naval aviators -- Roy, Sirohi
and Vijayan -- shot down at sea. Tufail also nails the canard about Soviet
Tupolev-126 support to IAF, and describes how it was the clever employment
of IAF MiG-21s to act as "radio-relay posts" that fooled the PAF and
brought our fighters home.

Coming to the "final reckoning", there is only a small difference between
the figures given in the HoW and those provided by Tufail for IAF losses;
both of which make nonsense of Yeager's pompous declarations. According to
the tabulated Pakistani account (giving names of Indian aircrew), the IAF
lost 60 aircraft. The HoW records the IAF's losses in action as 56 aircraft
(43 in the west and 13 in the east).

However, a dichotomy surfaces when it comes to Pakistani losses. While
Tufail lists the tail numbers of only 27 PAF aircraft destroyed, the HoW
mentions IAF claims of 75 PAF aircraft destroyed, but credits only 46 (27
in the west and 19 in the east).
Using the "utilisation rate" per aircraft
and "attrition rate", as a percentage of (only) the offensive missions
flown by both air forces, the HoW declares that the IAF's utilisation rate
being almost double, and its attrition rate being half that of the PAF,
"...had the war continued, the IAF would certainly have inflicted a
decisive defeat on the PAF".

......
(Admiral Arun Prakash is a former chief of the Indian Navy.


Jagan, How do these numbers reconcile with your extensive research and documented in your books?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby shiv » 21 Feb 2018 17:50


Rakesh
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 22 Feb 2018 01:12

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/966358697562853377 --> Just in: Flying Officer Avani Chaturvedi becomes the first Indian woman to fly a fighter aircraft solo. She took a MiG-21 Bison up on Feb 19 at Jamnagar.

Image

Image

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby wig » 22 Feb 2018 11:02

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 47826.html

the IAF is again scouting for fighters. Now they have no restriction on the numbers of engines the airplane operates with.
whatever happened the last time. in my humble opinion surely the powers that be must be aware of the best options, capabilities and useful ness for the IAF.
snipped from the article
Companies that participated in the now scrapped Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) project will be invited. The MMRCA project for 126 jets did not fructify and the government, in April 2015, announced the move to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets from French major Dassault.
The MoD and the IAF will keep its options open and not restrict itself to say a “single engine” fighter jet, sources have told The Tribune. The option will be to get a “fighter jet” and it will not specify the number of engines as that then restricts the options.
These will be under ‘make in India’ and to get global manufactures to have a production line in India, the project needs adequate numbers with possibility of future expansions. To speed up matters, the MoD will be looking at new additions made by global players since the MMRCA trials were carried out in 2011. The planes tested then were Lockheed Martin’s F-16IN, US Boeing’s F/A-18IN, Eurofighter Typhoon, French Dassault’s Rafale, Swedish Saab’s Gripen and Russian MiG-35.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Chinmay » 22 Feb 2018 12:39

I find it hard to believe that any firm will enter this competition, given the fiasco that MMRCA was. Now that we have the Rafale, why is there a need for a new face-off between single-engined and twin-engined fighters, given that SEF competition alreaady exists as well as the future IN TE competition?

The MoD/IAF work in mysterious ways

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby JTull » 22 Feb 2018 18:14

Question on FO Avani Chaturvedi going solo on a Mig-21: wouldn't a trainee first go solo on the same trainer (2-seater) before switching to a single seater? Isn't the idea to keep the first solo flight profile as near identical to the previous orientation flight?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 22 Feb 2018 18:22

JTull wrote:Question on FO Avani Chaturvedi going solo on a Mig-21: wouldn't a trainee first go solo on the same trainer (2-seater) before switching to a single seater? Isn't the idea to keep the first solo flight profile as near identical to the previous orientation flight?


why wouldn't you think that the trainer and the fighter are almost identical in cockpit layout, procedures etc??

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby JTull » 22 Feb 2018 18:53

I'm just saying from my novice experience of going solo during PPL. Aircraft handling characteristics could be slightly different. Even marginal differences in a high performance bird could get exaggerated.

OTOH, above photo may not be from the first solo flight but could be from a subsequent one.
Last edited by JTull on 22 Feb 2018 18:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby shiv » 22 Feb 2018 18:54

JTull wrote:Question on FO Avani Chaturvedi going solo on a Mig-21: wouldn't a trainee first go solo on the same trainer (2-seater) before switching to a single seater? Isn't the idea to keep the first solo flight profile as near identical to the previous orientation flight?

She is likely to have flown several times with an instructor who did nothing but watch her to ensure that she made no errors and then declared her fit for solo

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby JTull » 22 Feb 2018 18:58

That's precisely my question. In IAF (or fighters in general), what does it mean to being "declared fit for solo"? Is it to fly solo on the same trainer again or to switch the bird to a single-seater?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Gagan » 23 Feb 2018 04:12

She would have already done her time on the trainer with an instructor and has now been greenlighted for solo flight
Guess she is now an independent "rookie" fighter pilot

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Khalsa » 23 Feb 2018 05:57

Chinmay wrote:I find it hard to believe that any firm will enter this competition, given the fiasco that MMRCA was. Now that we have the Rafale, why is there a need for a new face-off between single-engined and twin-engined fighters, given that SEF competition alreaady exists as well as the future IN TE competition?

The MoD/IAF work in mysterious ways


I hope none does !!
I mean honestly this make in India should not happen for a phoren fighter.
It should be designed in India then make in India.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby shiv » 23 Feb 2018 07:41

JTull wrote:That's precisely my question. In IAF (or fighters in general), what does it mean to being "declared fit for solo"? Is it to fly solo on the same trainer again or to switch the bird to a single-seater?

To my knowledge flying solo on the same trainer happens for trainee pilots. But I don't think that holds for fighter conversion from trainer to single seat. Technically a flight with an instructor who does absolutely nothing is a solo flight in all but name. If that has been done there is no point in adding one more stage where instructor sits on ground rather than as cockpit passenger.

That said - a lot of the newer advanced trainers are able to simulate the systems, cockpit layout and behaviour of fighters - so the same trainer can be used as a lead-in trainer for a variety of fighters. If the fighter in question has no trainer - then the pilot has to simply move in and fly the bird for the first time - solo. I have read of many examples of that happening - usually test pilots checking out a different aircraft on foreign soil

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Abhibhushan » 23 Feb 2018 09:52

For all those who are curious about a young pilot’s transition into fighter flying, I recommend a visit to my own tale of flying the Spitfire Mk XVIII - https://tkstales.wordpress.com/2010/03/ ... -hakimpet/ or my tale of being sent off on a Vampire 52 unceremoniously - https://tkstales.wordpress.com/2010/03/ ... he-tigers/

:)

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 23 Feb 2018 10:07

^ Nice. Thank you for sharing, Sir. And in time for a good reading over the weekend too :)

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 24 Feb 2018 01:10

Chinmay wrote:I find it hard to believe that any firm will enter this competition, given the fiasco that MMRCA was. Now that we have the Rafale, why is there a need for a new face-off between single-engined and twin-engined fighters, given that SEF competition alreaady exists as well as the future IN TE competition?

The MoD/IAF work in mysterious ways


And I can guarantee that each and every single one of them that participated in MRCA V1.0 will again participate in V2.0. There is no bigger competition on the planet for a 4th generation fighter. Typhoon managed to extend its production line to 2024 with just the Qatari order, so imagine how big a deal the MRCA will be.

Saab, MiG, Boeing..all of them would be more than willing to put up with the vagaries of Indian MoD's bureaucracy if it means that their product lines get extended by over a decade with an Indian order. the prize is simply too large to sit it out sulking.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 24 Feb 2018 01:14

Data point on the Netra AEW&C in the IAF, from DRDO newsletter

Our indigenously developed Airborne Early Warming and Control (AEW&C) system, inducted into the IAF last year, participated in the Akraman exercise as well as several large fleet exercises. The aircraft has completed 250 mission sorties conducted for a total duration of 500 hr.


Average sortie duration - 2 hours. Which implies that to maintain one AEW&C in the air 24/7, would need a much larger fleet than the 3 currently contracted. Why can't the IAF just take what's available and order it in decent numbers, rather than waiting for the more capable Phalcon AWACS/desi AWACS?

7-8 of these Netras could easily provide good enough coverage almost 24/7.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Zynda » 24 Feb 2018 01:43

I remember reading recently that Netra orders might be increased to 6 or so...But I can't help getting the feeling that IAF always wants the upcoming next version rather than induct the current version & improve it gradually. But I don't know what IAF knows...

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby kit » 24 Feb 2018 01:49

Kartik wrote:Data point on the Netra AEW&C in the IAF, from DRDO newsletter

Average sortie duration - 2 hours. Which implies that to maintain one AEW&C in the air 24/7, would need a much larger fleet than the 3 currently contracted. Why can't the IAF just take what's available and order it in decent numbers, rather than waiting for the more capable Phalcon AWACS/desi AWACS?

7-8 of these Netras could easily provide good enough coverage almost 24/7.



Funding issues ? surprisingly it does seem likely

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Nikhil T » 24 Feb 2018 02:26

Chinmay wrote:I find it hard to believe that any firm will enter this competition, given the fiasco that MMRCA was. Now that we have the Rafale, why is there a need for a new face-off between single-engined and twin-engined fighters, given that SEF competition alreaady exists as well as the future IN TE competition?

The MoD/IAF work in mysterious ways


What's happened is that the Rafale accusations have stuck to Modi (not surprising given how autocratic that decision was) and MoD is suddenly realizing that the single-engine fighter competition was going to be a political decision as well. If the first MMRCA competition taught us anything, it was that IAF should not have included both single and double engine fighters in one competition, since they serve different purposes and are not comparable to each other.

Never imagined I would have to say this, but when history books are written, then the NDA-2 Govt will come off worsely in securing the nation than UPA 1/2. Flat/contracting defence capital spending, no large procurements and lip-service to indigenous development in the name of DPP/Make in India.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Avtar Singh » 24 Feb 2018 03:04

1st solo can mean many things, the VERY FIRST solo is probably the most nerve racking...
see here from 21.01 mins, how the RAF does it. "very big step"

If you watch the whole episode the old instruction techniques as demonstrated by 1 of the instructors
are no longer acceptable. I think the original person in the film was taken aside and had a chat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXujulQGBWk

Solo flying further up the aeroplane chain does not mean the same thing as the very first time one is
sent off sitting alone in an aeroplane.

But solo means solo; on your own.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Lalmohan » 24 Feb 2018 04:23

flying training is all about training
training
training
training
and
training
know what to do, and it gets done, even under high stress conditions

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Baikul » 24 Feb 2018 04:56

tsarkar wrote:
Vips wrote:Acquired from scrap, restored Dakota to join IAF fleet in March. The aircraft is a gift from Rajya Sabha MP Rajeev Chandrasekar to the India Air Force, and at a function held here today, the Bengaluru lawmaker ceremonially handed over the papers and deeds to Air Chief Marshal B S Dhanoa.

This gentleman is the only politician with a keen interest and understanding of military matters. May his tribe increase and he takes up a leadership role in the Executive & Legislature.


If I may disagree in some particulars. While he is a followers of military affairs, he is not the only politician who understands matters military.

May his tribe increase indeed, but unless he gets his hands 'dirty' in direct politics (more RSS/BJP internal than external), he is unlikely to take the leadership roles you mentioned,.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby vasu raya » 24 Feb 2018 23:16

Abhibhushan wrote:For all those who are curious about a young pilot’s transition into fighter flying, I recommend a visit to my own tale of flying the Spitfire Mk XVIII - https://tkstales.wordpress.com/2010/03/ ... -hakimpet/ or my tale of being sent off on a Vampire 52 unceremoniously - https://tkstales.wordpress.com/2010/03/ ... he-tigers/

:)


Those simple and rugged planes with brute power augmented with the safety of modern electronics make a great combo.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 02 Mar 2018 16:08

Avtar Singh wrote:1st solo can mean many things, the VERY FIRST solo is probably the most nerve racking...
see here from 21.01 mins, how the RAF does it. "very big step"

If you watch the whole episode the old instruction techniques as demonstrated by 1 of the instructors
are no longer acceptable. I think the original person in the film was taken aside and had a chat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXujulQGBWk

Solo flying further up the aeroplane chain does not mean the same thing as the very first time one is
sent off sitting alone in an aeroplane.

But solo means solo; on your own.


Watch Vijeta. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdP9FOXQ-yQ

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 02 Mar 2018 16:28

EMB145 is listed as 2800km range presumably with passengers and luggage....
it is probably capable of doing 3 hrs missions on station with some reserve time 30mins to fly to and from base.

ideally we need a platform with 8-10 hr flying time.

the G550 aew of israel claims to fly 19pax for 12 hrs. this will no doubt be less with the mission eqpt weight now. perhaps 6 hrs....

lack of endurance and need for refuelers might be why iaf is shying away from EMB145 to a higher loiter platform.

Embraer does have a range of bigger a/c but if one has to go big, perhaps A330 type with its vast range and fuel is best.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nam » 02 Mar 2018 16:46

Also A330 has large civilian market. So would be cheaper to operate, parts easily available and access to upgrades applied on civilian market.

A powerful radar and ability to fly higher means larger coverage. Each space for further radar and station upgrades. Lot of positives, specially for a large country like ours.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 02 Mar 2018 17:16

Nam this is an important point. Although specific economic data would only be available to fleet carriers but both Boeing and Airbus have in the past claimed that their NBs have lower O&S cost compared to business jets due to economies of scale and cost sharing with much larger commercial fleets. Although this would not be as drastic with WBs but the difference could still be there.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby prat.patel » 09 Mar 2018 09:25

Anybody know the status of LCH? Does LCH also warrant a separate thread (like Tejas MK1/MK1A thread) to keep getting updates on the production and induction into IAF and IA?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby deejay » 09 Mar 2018 09:35

^No. LCH is being followed in the Indian Military Helicopters thread.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Haridas » 09 Mar 2018 11:08

Baikul wrote:
tsarkar wrote:This gentleman is the only politician with a keen interest and understanding of military matters. May his tribe increase and he takes up a leadership role in the Executive & Legislature.


If I may disagree in some particulars. While he is a followers of military affairs, he is not the only politician who understands matters military.

May his tribe increase indeed, but unless he gets his hands 'dirty' in direct politics (more RSS/BJP internal than external), he is unlikely to take the leadership roles you mentioned,.

During 1980s AEB had couple of Dakotas and a HS748 Avero to move across various airbases to carry the AEB examiners. When Dakotas were being retired from squadron service, my father salvaged key parts from exiting DC3 to elongate sognificantly the use of AEB work horse. Before he retired in 1989 he was recommended by AEB CO for AVSM for his first rate flying rating (Master Green all through his career except first 6 months), and saving huge money by extending life of AEB Dekotas.

The IAF did not give him AVSM but did award him VISHISTA SEVA MEDAL, alas my mother did not get to know it as she expired 2 weeks before the award was announced. :(

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 09 Mar 2018 13:07

http://www.defencenews.in/article/This-year,-the-Indian-Air-Force-doesn%E2%80%99t-have-enough-funds-to-pay-for-past-purchases-536872

This year, the Indian Air Force doesn’t have enough funds to pay for past purchases
Friday, March 09, 2018

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has projected that it may not be able to make tranche payments (akin to EMIs) for its past purchases in fiscal 2018-19, as adequate resources haven’t been allotted by the finance ministry.

The projection underlines the crisis that an increasingly lopsided defence budget has brought to the defence services.

The IAF has been allocated Rs 35,755 crore for the next fiscal year, a sum that top officials say falls well short of the amount it has to pay for purchases made in the past few years, including for systems such as the Rafale fighter jets, Apache attack choppers and Chinook heavy lift helicopters.

All these aircraft are to be delivered by 2019-2020, but part payments need to be made every year as they go through the production cycle in France and the US, and training and associated activities commence from the Indian side.

With the allocated budget short of its committed liabilities, the IAF will need to apply for special budgetary sanctions mid-year, throwing its financial planning out of gear. Sources said that the Air Force could be short by as much as Rs 14,000 crore, but that special provisions will be made later in the year to ensure that all commitments are honoured.

Empty pockets ::

Senior officials say that while every year the allocated budget is far short of what the services project as expenses, this is the first time in recent memory that it will fall short of the ‘compulsory payments’ that need to be made.

In 2017-18 for example, official records show that the IAF requested the finance ministry for Rs 62,049 crore under the capital head, as it had planned to make payments for the Rafale fighter jets and associated components. However, given financial constraints, the service was allotted just 54 per cent of this sum (Rs 33,570 crore).

As reported by ThePrint, the Indian defence budget is now dangerously skewed as the revenue bill has zoomed over the years. The sustained manpower-intensive nature of the services has resulted in a situation where resources available for modernisation of the forces are far outstripped by the allocations required for paying salaries and pensions to soldiers.

Reports of the parliamentary standing committee on defence show a steady decline in the capital budget of the defence ministry. From 2007, when the ministry spent 41 per cent of its money on capital expenses, the ratio was down to 32 per cent in 2016-17.

A shrinking capital budget means that the money available to initiate new purchases has reduced – in the case of the Army, for example, the money available for new purchases in 2016-17 was Rs 2,080 crore, or just 14 per cent of its total capital share.

What can be done to fix this?

The parliamentary standing committee on defence, headed by BJP veteran Maj. Gen. (retd) B.C. Khanduri, has been a strong advocate of creating a non-lapsable, rollover fund for modernisation of the armed forces.

This would collect all unspent amounts from the defence capital budget at the end of a financial year into a corpus that can be used for future purchases.

While this concept was given a go ahead by the defence ministry last year, the finance ministry has resisted all moves to set it up. Sources said that the standing committee is set to make a fresh bid to set up this fund in its next reports that are to be tabled in Parliament shortly.


And the Mcaroon comes-a-calling hawking his French Filly,Mademoiselle Rafale! Bonjour M'sieu! She iz only $200M a pop,but I geev her to you for a 20% deezcount zo zat you vill vont her more and more,n'est ce pas?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 09 Mar 2018 17:23

^^^
This year, the Indian Air Force doesn’t have enough funds to pay for past purchases
Friday, March 09, 2018

...

Enough said.

42 squadrons is a pipe dream with expensive imports. Hopefully, realization is dawning among the decision makers.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 10 Mar 2018 00:33

The news report is wrong. Its the Govt., that hasn't got the funds.
IAF does not have its own treasury.


What can be done to fix this?

The parliamentary standing committee(PSC) on defence, headed by BJP veteran Maj. Gen. (retd) B.C. Khanduri, has been a strong advocate of creating a non-lapsable, rollover fund for modernisation of the armed forces.

This would collect all unspent amounts from the defence capital budget at the end of a financial year into a corpus that can be used for future purchases.



While this concept was given a go ahead by the defence ministry last year, the finance ministry has resisted all moves to set it up. Sources said that the standing committee is set to make a fresh bid to set up this fund in its next reports that are to be tabled in Parliament shortly.


So who heads the PSC on Finance? The problem is in Finance Ministry which resists keeping unspent money.
In the past this has been a slush fund which is misused.

So needs better controls to ensure proper utilization as current situation needs cap ex roll over.
PSC on Defence needs joint session with PSC Finance to iron out the problems and make recommendations.

Finance obviously has the money. Their objections is to retaining the funds in Defence.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cybaru » 10 Mar 2018 01:33

Singha wrote:EMB145 is listed as 2800km range presumably with passengers and luggage....
it is probably capable of doing 3 hrs missions on station with some reserve time 30mins to fly to and from base.

ideally we need a platform with 8-10 hr flying time.

the G550 aew of israel claims to fly 19pax for 12 hrs. this will no doubt be less with the mission eqpt weight now. perhaps 6 hrs....

lack of endurance and need for refuelers might be why iaf is shying away from EMB145 to a higher loiter platform.

Embraer does have a range of bigger a/c but if one has to go big, perhaps A330 type with its vast range and fuel is best.


EMB145 in AEW config has a 8-9 hour flying time. I posted a link long time back. I can find it again.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Nikhil T » 10 Mar 2018 02:19

ramana wrote:The news report is wrong. Its the Govt., that hasn't got the funds.
IAF does not have its own treasury.


What can be done to fix this?

The parliamentary standing committee(PSC) on defence, headed by BJP veteran Maj. Gen. (retd) B.C. Khanduri, has been a strong advocate of creating a non-lapsable, rollover fund for modernisation of the armed forces.

This would collect all unspent amounts from the defence capital budget at the end of a financial year into a corpus that can be used for future purchases.



While this concept was given a go ahead by the defence ministry last year, the finance ministry has resisted all moves to set it up. Sources said that the standing committee is set to make a fresh bid to set up this fund in its next reports that are to be tabled in Parliament shortly.


So who heads the PSC on Finance? The problem is in Finance Ministry which resists keeping unspent money.
In the past this has been a slush fund which is misused.

So needs better controls to ensure proper utilization as current situation needs cap ex roll over.
PSC on Defence needs joint session with PSC Finance to iron out the problems and make recommendations.

Finance obviously has the money. Their objections is to retaining the funds in Defence.


I don't think having the rollover fund is a good idea. Today, the "use it or lose it" is a forcing function to make babus and Armed forces to take a decision.

Also, the "unspent fund" problem is misunderstood. Many years ago, its was that funds lapse because MoD was unable to spend it. However, today it is the Finance Ministry that's directing MoD to return some portion of allocated funds back in Dec/Jan to cover the fiscal deficit.

The budget docs make this clear. The Revised Estimates each year are Rs 10 or 20 thousand crore lower than Budget Estimates and the MoD spends 100% of those RE.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Nikhil T » 10 Mar 2018 02:24

srai wrote:^^^
This year, the Indian Air Force doesn’t have enough funds to pay for past purchases
Friday, March 09, 2018

...

Enough said.

42 squadrons is a pipe dream with expensive imports. Hopefully, realization is dawning among the decision makers.


True. Both IAF and MoD must share blame in this. The J-10 and Tejas have similar trajectories. First flight (J-10 was 1998, Tejas 2001) but introduction (J-10 2006, Tejas 2015). Today, China has 400+ of J-10s and IAF has 5.


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