Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby titash » 28 Jun 2018 09:10

<< Cross-posting from the Su-30 thread >>

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby tsarkar » 28 Jun 2018 09:16

titash wrote:<< Cross-posting from the Su-30 thread >>

Please dont spam multiple threads posting the same thing. Military Flight Safety is a single thread to consolidate these discussions. Total 8 crashes until now.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kakarat » 28 Jun 2018 15:05

abhik wrote:^^^
And CBU-97 sensor fused weapon.


No it looks more like a BL755 Cluster bomb

Image

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 06 Jul 2018 07:18

https://twitter.com/Chopsyturvey/status ... 1266512896 ---> While we were doing the R-77 flight testing in MiG 21 Bison in Russia in mid 2000. Two missiles had to be fired and guided on two targets simultaneously by the Kopyo radar. Guess What? The two targets were unmanned MiG-21s flying 3 km apart through remote control.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kersi » 06 Jul 2018 10:58

Kakarat wrote:
abhik wrote:^^^
And CBU-97 sensor fused weapon.


No it looks more like a BL755 Cluster bomb

Image


Which is this aircraft ? SU 25 Frogfoot ?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Chinmay » 06 Jul 2018 12:21

^^ BAe Harrier

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ks_sachin » 06 Jul 2018 12:37

Kersi wrote:
Kakarat wrote:
No it looks more like a BL755 Cluster bomb

Image


Which is this aircraft ? SU 25 Frogfoot ?

Sirji u asking that Q!!!

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Bala Vignesh » 06 Jul 2018 12:38

Kersi wrote:Which is this aircraft ? SU 25 Frogfoot ?

RAF Harrier GR7, which was based on the development of the AV-8B for the USMC.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 07 Jul 2018 09:49

Why the Indian Air Force is in dire need of combat enablers
https://www.dailyo.in/variety/why-india ... 25247.html

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby dinesha » 08 Jul 2018 19:27

The Indian Air Force is losing fighter jets faster than they can be bought
https://theprint.in/security/the-indian ... ght/79713/



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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby jaysimha » 13 Jul 2018 17:11


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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 13 Jul 2018 17:34



GREAT post! Thanks, Austinji!

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 13 Jul 2018 19:37

chola wrote:


GREAT post! Thanks, Austinji!


Yes who ever wrote did amazing work to research on this topic

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 13 Jul 2018 19:45

+1

Request Mods to put this post in the thread for good posts

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby KBDagha » 14 Jul 2018 00:37

This article is written by V.Narayan (hope I have recollected name correctly) from team bhp.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Abhibhushan » 15 Jul 2018 07:52

Re the historical article posted by Austen.

A very nicely written piece. However, I have a few comments about the picture of a scrambling Gnat supposedly of 1965 operations. IE1078 was with 23 Squadron in 1964. The two pilot running to their aircraft seem to be Flight Lieutenant KC Khanna and Fg Offr SK (Neelu) Malik. Both of them were in 23 Sqn in 1964, Khanna was not there in 1965. The old balding gentleman in the rear is almost certainly Wg Cdr Bhupinder (Bindi) Singh. He was OC 23 Sqn in 1964 but had handed over the unit before Sep 65. The treeline/Tarmac / tent combination looks very much like the ‘Sahara’ dispersal at Ambala of 1964. The shorter gent next to Bindi could be Wing Commander SP (Mote) Dutt. He was the Officer in Charge Flying at Ambala in 1964 for a short time. It is unlikely that the CO of a fighter Sqn would be in a normal ‘Bush Shirt’ type uniform at war.

I thefore feel that the photo was taken at Ambala in 1964 during a small scale local exercise.

These comments however does not detract from the value of the quoted article.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby tsarkar » 15 Jul 2018 11:59

Dear Abhibhushan Sir,

It's always a pleasure reading your posts here. I had a humble request - if you could kindly post on what went wrong with the Marut program and why couldn't we evolve it further to build our R&D and manufacturing base. You were there from genesis to ultimate scrapping of the program, so would humbly request your narrative.

Secondly Sir, we have news articles of repeated scope creep in Tejas delaying FOC. In May 2018, it was reported new avionics were asked for by IAF

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2018/05/ ... force.html
But now, the IAF has added to that wish list. Amongst several additional demands are: “smart multi-function displays” for the cockpit, a “combined interrogator and transponder” to differentiate friendly aircraft from foes, a digital map generator and an improved radio altimeter.


In July it was reported more enhancements were asked for -
https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2018/ ... t-hal.html
Sources said IAF now wants a software-designed radio(SDR) on board all FOC platforms, a new addition, which was not envisaged earlier.


As Project Head of DARIN, you would be well aware of the time consuming nature of integration and testing.

Surely IAF Plans Directorate is well aware of this as well as the IAF Tejas Project Office (being headed by an AVM/AM to the best of my knowledge). Surely the IAF can go for progressive Marks with these enhancements rather than insisting they come with FOC.

I would humbly request your point of view on this.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 17 Jul 2018 10:19

Minister says ‘jointness dear to PM’s heart’. IAF tells us why theatre command not workable

An IAF position paper instead recommends strengthening of joint operations command, says integrated theatre commands will be a strain on resources.

New Delhi: The Indian Air Force (IAF) has recommended the strengthening of the joint operations command (JOCOM) for better synergy among India’s military services, arguing that this would do away with the need for integrated theatre commands (ITC).

The IAF has argued that the integrated theatre commands would strain its resources, according to a position paper read by ThePrint.

This comes days after defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman said the government wanted the military to move towards creating theatre commands.

“We want a bottom-up approach, create the base and then add layers to it, that way it will not be top-down,” she said at a press conference Friday, adding that the “issue of jointness is very dear to Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s heart”.

The IAF position was circulated within the military and the political leadership first in August last year but it has now gained greater currency since a serving navy officer, Rear Admiral Monty Khanna, wrote in a paper for the military think-tank Centre for Joint Warfare Studies (CENJOWS), alleging that the IAF had a “hidden agenda” in opposing theatre commands.

The IAF has taken offence to the paper in which the Rear Admiral, a chief instructor with the Defence Services Staff College in Wellington, has alleged that the IAF was opposing theatre commands as it was intent on keeping avenues for promotions of its senior officers.

While the JOCOM comprises the chiefs of the armed forces or commanders designated by them to synergise operations, an ITC would essentially be helmed by a theatre commander (from any of the three armed forces) and would include within it a land forces component, a maritime forces component and an air component.

In an ITC, operational commanders at the field-level would ultimately report to the theatre commander irrespective of service. The JOCOM would maintain the independence of each service that would continue to report to the respective service chief.

‘Only integrated service’


In its position paper against the ITCs, the IAF has argued that it is the only service that is integrated, bottom-up, with each of the other two armed forces (navy and army). It has stated that its assets were always readily available to the other services, including after the terror attacks at the Pathankot Air Force Station in January 2016, and after the Uri attack, when it was involved in the conduct of the September 2016 “surgical strikes”.

The IAF has further argued that since its mandate is to guard India’s territorial integrity and airspace — meaning that it is not essentially an ‘expeditionary’ force (operating way beyond the homeland) such as that of the US— a JOCOM would facilitate the distribution of its limited assets depending on the contingency. The JOCOM technically exists even today but, the IAF has argued, it must meet at least once a month in peacetime and more often depending on the exigency.

One IAF official told ThePrint that its latest Gagan Shakti exercise had tested the concept of distributing assets in three contingencies: a live western border (with Pakistan); a live northern border (with China) and with both borders being live. It swung aircraft and other platforms from the west to the east and to the north.

This was possible because of the very nature of the air force (any air force) that is mandated to guard a largely contiguous territory such as India’s, the IAF has argued. A single Hercules C-130 aircraft has flown the land borders of India in a single day without requiring to land. (It was fuelled in mid-air). “The IAF does not feel that it is constricted by space,” said the officer.

‘Surprised that Admiral went public’

The officer said it was surprising that the Navy Admiral had chosen to go public with what is essentially a “churning and head-banging within the military” on a professional issue of force restructuring and command authority “when there are service rules against doing so.”

The IAF has also repeatedly pointed out that it needs more assets. The 32 squadrons (and dwindling) of fighter aircraft that it currently has is not enough for its mandate. There is a reason why the IAF has been authorised 42 squadrons “and that is to fulfil our mandate”, explained the officer.

“It is because we can decide where and when and which platform to deploy that maintaining integration with the navy and the army at all levels is important to us. We are not against jointness. But we do not favour the imposition of foreign concepts like the ITC (Integrated Theatre Commands) whose operational value in our environment is suspect,” said the officer.


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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby uddu » 17 Jul 2018 11:15

^^^Print dot in is Congressi media that utilizes anything to target the govt. So better not use such low quality articles for debates. Its wise to avoid them.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 24 Jul 2018 06:52

IAF ‘harvesting organs’ of globally retired jets
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... s?from=mdr

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 24 Jul 2018 19:21

twitter

Egypt/Qatar paid Rs 1,319 crore per #Rafale fighter. India with greatly enhanced weapons capabilities (including classified nuclear) paid Rs 351 crore more at Rs 1,670 crore per fighter. Easy enough to understand if stated with clarity & brevity which most BJP spokies lack

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 24 Jul 2018 23:07

Chetak, what is the twitter link?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 24 Jul 2018 23:19

Rakesh wrote:IAF ‘harvesting organs’ of globally retired jets
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... s?from=mdr



Scurrilous headlines from TOilet.


Shows the mentality of the reporter and editorial staff.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 24 Jul 2018 23:23

Rajat Pandit. Expect only that much from him. I linked that article (did not allow me to cut-and-paste) because of the number of Jaguar sqns that he said would still be around after the Darin III upgrade is done.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 25 Jul 2018 07:18

See the tone difference in Rahul Bedi's report on same subject:

http://www.janes.com/article/81970/iaf- ... m-overseas

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 25 Jul 2018 09:23

Rakesh wrote:Chetak, what is the twitter link?


Here you go

Minhaz MerchantVerified account@MinhazMerchant

Egypt/Qatar paid Rs 1,319 crore per #Rafale fighter. India with greatly enhanced weapons capabilities (including classified nuclear) paid Rs 351 crore more at Rs 1,670 crore per fighter. Easy enough to understand if stated with clarity & brevity which most BJP spokies lack

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby kit » 25 Jul 2018 10:33

ramana wrote:See the tone difference in Rahul Bedi's report on same subject:

http://www.janes.com/article/81970/iaf- ... m-overseas



I like it.factual and to the point. Rahul bedi can take different tones at times though !

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 25 Jul 2018 17:51

Modi sarkar's Rafales cheaper than Sonia regime's: Each aircraft costs Rs 59 crore less




Modi sarkar's Rafales cheaper than Sonia regime's: Each aircraft costs Rs 59 crore less

By Ajit K Dubey, 24, Jul 2018.

Modi sarkar's Rafales cheaper than Sonia regime's: Each aircraft costs Rs 59 crore less

HIGHLIGHTS
Government document accessed by MyNation suggests that the cost of the planes under the UPA would have been Rs 255 crore more if the NDA government had settled for the same aircraft that their predecessors had been negotiating for


In the deal for 36 Rafale aircraft signed by the Narendra Modi government with France, India has managed to save Rs 59 crore per aircraft in comparison to the estimated cost of 126 planes which were being negotiated for by the UPA government.

A government document prepared by the Ministry of Defence and the Indian Air Force this year and accessed by MyNation shows that the per unit price of Modi regime’s Rafales, after taking into account the cost of weapons, maintenance, simulators, repair support and technical assistance is coming out to Rs 1,646 crore while the ones negotiated for by the UPA would have come to Rs 1,705 crore.

The document suggests that the cost of the planes under the UPA would have been Rs 255 crore more if the NDA government had settled for the same aircraft that their predecessors had been negotiating for.

The total cost of 36 Rafales is Rs 59,262 crore whereas the 126 planes during the UPA time would have cost Rs 1,72,185 crores as per the document.

Despite spending Rs 9,855 more on the India Specific Enhancements in the planes in the deal done by the Modi government, the cost of the planes is coming to Rs 59 crore less than the UPA price for each aircraft.


"

The NDA government has been arguing for a long time that its full-fledged deal for 36 Rafales is much better than the UPA deal that was withdrawn at the negotiations stage itself in terms of both price, as well as the capability, of the planes. This document settles the debate once and for all.

Congress president Rahul Gandhi has been making allegations for the last one year that there is a scam in the 36-plane deal done by Modi government and demanding from the government the exact price of the contract with France.

The document also shows that the Modi government has also managed to get extra muscle for the planes in form of the 150 km-range METEOR air-to-air beyond visual range missiles while it would also be able to destroy ground targets using the 300-km range SCALP missiles which were not part of the package of the UPA deal.

Further, the secret document contains a copy of the file over which the then Defence Minister AK Antony had asked, in writing for a re-examination of the entire process by the Ministry of Defence and its Finance wing (after the finalisation of the commercial negotiations) to determine the lowest bidder — the basis on which Rafale was chosen by India over the European Eurofighter Typhoon, thus confusing the then negotiating team

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Pratyush » 28 Jul 2018 16:38

We produced Jaguars for nearly 20 years. Why do we need airframes from rest of the world to keep in service planes.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Khalsa » 28 Jul 2018 16:58

Pratyush wrote:We produced Jaguars for nearly 20 years. Why do we need airframes from rest of the world to keep in service planes.


Damn good question.
This needs to be answered in a simplified manner to ensure we understand why we are buying air frames from the around the world.
Slightly downsizing our squadron numbers.
Not producing our own spares.

Talk in Capacity, Darin upgrades capability etc.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 28 Jul 2018 17:32

tsarkar wrote:Dear Abhibhushan Sir,

It's always a pleasure reading your posts here. I had a humble request - if you could kindly post on what went wrong with the Marut program and why couldn't we evolve it further to build our R&D and manufacturing base. You were there from genesis to ultimate scrapping of the program, so would humbly request your narrative.

Secondly Sir, we have news articles of repeated scope creep in Tejas delaying FOC. In May 2018, it was reported new avionics were asked for by IAF

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2018/05/ ... force.html
But now, the IAF has added to that wish list. Amongst several additional demands are: “smart multi-function displays” for the cockpit, a “combined interrogator and transponder” to differentiate friendly aircraft from foes, a digital map generator and an improved radio altimeter.


In July it was reported more enhancements were asked for -
https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2018/ ... t-hal.html
Sources said IAF now wants a software-designed radio(SDR) on board all FOC platforms, a new addition, which was not envisaged earlier.


As Project Head of DARIN, you would be well aware of the time consuming nature of integration and testing.

Surely IAF Plans Directorate is well aware of this as well as the IAF Tejas Project Office (being headed by an AVM/AM to the best of my knowledge). Surely the IAF can go for progressive Marks with these enhancements rather than insisting they come with FOC.

I would humbly request your point of view on this.


It has been a few days but I am anxious to learn Abhibhushan Sir’s opinion of Marut’s history and on the Tejas.

So if I may be so bold to bring Tsarkarji’s request again, Sir.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby dinesh_kimar » 28 Jul 2018 18:47

Pratyush wrote:We produced Jaguars for nearly 20 years. Why do we need airframes from rest of the world to keep in service planes.


A guess.

1. HAL closed down the line for Jaguar, to make way for the Hawk. They got rid of assembly devices (joining jigs and fixtures) , and did not stock for spare parts required till 2030, before closing down the line, which was an obvious step for any self respecting aerospace company. Hence we have news of them buying airframes, which can be used as organ harvesters, as well as buying assembly jigs and rotables from England. ( why did the Brits not rid themselves of the jigs, Jaguar were retired from RAF in 2006 ? Maybe prior experience in wartime of putting back into service mothballed platforms .)

If they wanted extra space for Hawk,
1.Why not close down HAL School and Hospital, shift all to Command Hospital and KV school, close down one of their dozen playgrounds, etc. ? Why stop the line?

2. Why not transfer entire line / jigs to BRD 11 or other suitable,

and cut down some trees in 4000 acre of pristine forest, to set up a

line on grounds of ensure national security.?

3. Why not close down 4 acre of HAL inspection bungalow and use this as

jaguar line instead?

(The above points are worst case scenario, to show that options existed

for saving the assembly line, pls dont take them seriously, after all

Saturday evening is old monk time.)

I had deep misgivings when I heard HAL is closing the line about 8-10

years back. I remember Shiv saying that Mig 21 production line should

have continued till LCA is in Squadron service.

(Oh hell, just realised HAL also has a line for SU-30 MKI !!)

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby dinesh_kimar » 28 Jul 2018 20:06

I would like to speculate that IAF wont see maintenance or spares problems on Mig 29,unlike Mig 21 and jaguar, due to excellent efforts of 11 BRD .

Apparently, they have gone up to the alloy replacement level while developing spares, and this excellent capablity has resulted in probably higher uptimes than even Russian Air Force (their fleet grounded in 2008 for 3 mnths, ours kept flying).

Philip Saar's posts abt Malaysian Mig 29s really makes sense now.

An alternative is asking Russia for a "Serbia package", where the Russian Air Force donates old usable airframes for free with UPG package paid for by the client.

About 20-30 Mig 29s and same no. of Mirages from France (leveraging warm Indo -French ties backed by cold hard cash) will be useful practical solution.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 30 Jul 2018 14:50

This guy, D Raghunandan, is talking some sense.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUOjMtvIhsw

Was Rafale a Transparent Deal?


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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby SBajwa » 30 Jul 2018 20:39

France to donate 32 Jaguars and 2 Mirage 2000's to sweeten up the Rafale Deal.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby RoyG » 30 Jul 2018 20:57

I read somewhere that the incoming jags will be cannibalized for spares.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Bala Vignesh » 30 Jul 2018 21:14

Are those mirages repairable to flying conditions?? It would make more sense to overhaul and upgrade them to the same standard as the rest of our fleet and use them to strengthen the Wolfpacks who are a very under equipped squadron.


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