Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 30 Jul 2018 21:58

The M2Ks should be. I have a feeling they will be twin seaters, because we have lost around 3 - 4 of them already. A very well known crash was with Air Marshal Anil Chopra.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Khalsa » 31 Jul 2018 02:07

^^^ Summing up.

for above 3 posts.

32 Jags were inserted into deal quite long back and yes they will be only cannibalised for spares indeed. They have no life left in them.

The mirages may have been a recent addition. The mirages are surplus (in a twisted way) because the French Air Force is moving away from Mirages.
However being trainers, they have been thrashed quite a lot but I believe the Mirages would be flyable or have some life left in them.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 31 Jul 2018 03:01

Rakesh wrote:The M2Ks should be. I have a feeling they will be twin seaters, because we have lost around 3 - 4 of them already. A very well known crash was with Air Marshal Anil Chopra.


Yes indeed those are twin seaters. As with a lot of other deals, this has been in the works for well over half a decade. But back then, these were to be purchased. Not sure if the French are going to donate those airframes as well.

Would make sense then to ask for more, as many as the French could spare. Puth them through the Mirage-2000I upgrade program and add them to the combat fleet.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 31 Jul 2018 12:25

Well said. When we argued for this during the SE episode, we were reminded that additional M2Ks would do little to address the squadron shortage in the IAF and only F-16 production would provide salvation to the IAF and set the ball rolling in other sectors of the economy. I guess the IAF must be idiots to buy used M2Ks.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kersi » 31 Jul 2018 13:03

Would these M2K from France create a new sqdn / complete the half Sqdn (No 9 Wolfpacks) or will they be used only for spares ? Any "official" answer from IAF/MOD ?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 31 Jul 2018 13:25

Kersi wrote:Would these M2K from France create a new sqdn / complete the half Sqdn (No 9 Wolfpacks) or will they be used only for spares ? Any "official" answer from IAF/MOD ?


I very seriously doubt if the french will part with anything that is flyable. At best, parts from these carcasses may be used for deep servicing or at best for recovery of some IAF assets after some minor accidents etc.

Also, it will not be always so easy to recover all these parts in a usable condition. If assembly requires great skill, recovery of parts from an already assembled and much used airframe etc requires far greater skills.

It is beginning to sound more like a marketing gimmick rather than a real value added and viable proposition. The yield in spares may turn out to be rather poor and well below the hype that this idea seems to promise.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 31 Jul 2018 13:51

X posted from the rafale thread


Rahul Gandhi, here’s why Rafale is a bigger UPA scandal than Bofors: A simple explainer

By Nitin A Gokhale

First Published 30, Jul 2018,

Rahul Gandhi, here’s why Rafale is a bigger UPA scandal than Bofors

HIGHLIGHTS
Read this to know how RaGa is not telling the truth on either the price of the French planes, the way contracts were awarded, or why Congress sat on the decision as India’s fighter jet numbers kept dwindling alarmingly


Rahul Gandhi is in search of BJP’s ‘Bofors moment.’

But if he and his advisers think the Rafale deal is equivalent of the Bofors scandal for the current government, they are mistaken.

Essentially, the Congress is making two claims on the Rafale issue: One, the NDA government paid an inflated price as compared to the UPA’s price for the fighter jets and two, the government favoured a private company over the Defence Public Sector Unit, the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd or HAL. On both counts, the man who aspires to become the Prime Minister of India one day, has been economical with the truth.

History of procurement

If anything, the Congress-led UPA I and II governments need to take the blame for hollowing out the Indian Air Force (IAF) by sitting on a procurement projected as absolutely essential at the beginning of this century. The IAF first articulated the need to acquire 126 fighter jets by 2000. In nine years, the IAF said, it would have to phase out the vintage MiG-21 series of aircraft and replacement should be in place by 2010 to retain the Air Force’s combat edge against Pakistan. So the qualitative requirements were drawn up, the numbers arrived at. By 2003, Air HQ was ready to put out a tender. Yet it took four more years for the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) to accept the IAF’s demand. The Acceptance of Necessity or AON was accorded on 29 June 2007.

But thanks to the indecisiveness of two successive UPA governments, the procurements never happened. So, in seven years between 2007 and 2014, the UPA failed to clinch the deal. Neither did it arrive at any price per aircraft. Meanwhile, the IAF’s combat fleet kept dwindling at an alarming rate.

The events need a bit of a recap to put the matter in the right perspective.

Six companies--EADS from Germany, manufacturers of the Eurofighter Typhoon; Lockheed Martin (who make the F-16s) and Boeing ((F-18 aircraft) from the USA, Sweden’s SAAB (makers of Gripen); Dassault Aviation from France (the Rafale manufacturers) and Russia’s Rosoboron Export (MiG-35)--submitted their techno-commercial bids in April 2008 for what came to be known as the Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft or MMRCA tender, followed by nearly 11 months of field evaluation trial (FET) held in the heat of Rajasthan desert during peak summer months and extreme cold conditions in the high altitude zone of Ladakh.

In 2010, the evaluation committee of the IAF shortlisted two aircraft — the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Rafale aircraft fielded by the Dassault Aviation (DA) — and forwarded the recommendation to Defence Minister AK Antony.

Procrastination

Antony took almost a year to accept the recommendation. It was already 2011.

For the next two years, negotiations certain aspects related to License Manufacture of 108 aircraft in India with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd or HAL as the lead production agency could not be finalized. Major differences occurred on the aspect of Man Hours that would be required to produce the aircraft from kits in India and who would take the responsibility for the entire lot of 126 aircraft. While the French Company maintained that 31 Million Man Hours that it had proposed should be sufficient to produce 108 Rafale aircraft in India, HAL was asking for mark up of this Man Hours by 2.7 times.

This point became the bone of contention between the government and the French manufacturer.

Moreover, in the understanding of the MoD, the company that had emerged as the winner in the bid—Dassault Aviation—would have to sign a single contract with the Indian government. The French Company would then need to have back-to-back contract(s) with HAL and other Indian Production Agencies. Dassault Aviation would also be responsible for the delivery of the complete 126 aircraft to IAF and the single point responsibility for this contract rested with Dassault Aviation because the tender was issued to them.

Congress indecision

However, Dassault Aviation did not fulfil the commitment given in the first meeting and an impasse ensued on the responsibility of delivery of 108 aircraft to be manufactured in India. Another hurdle came up on the point of work share of HAL. Dassault Aviation was asked to submit a 'Responsibility Matrix', clearly defining the role and responsibility of Dassault Aviation and HAL. The `Responsibility Matrix' was to facilitate a back-to-back contract of Dassault Aviation with HAL. The CNC or Cost Negotiations Committee was not able to move the negotiations forward since the interpretation of two fundamental aspects of the case by the French Company was not in line with the original terms in the tender.
The UPA government, under the overly cautious AK Antony instead of imposing a deadline for the French manufacturer to comply with the terms of the tender, dragged its feet and allowed Dassault Aviation to get away with obfuscation. Moreover, in an unusual move, Antony instructed MoD officials to bring the file back to him after concluding the negotiations to re-examine the integrity of the process before proceeding to finalise the contract, creating confusion and doubt in the minds of the officials who were negotiating with the manufacturer.

Turning it around

Meanwhile, the Modi government took office in May 2014.

As the new political leadership was briefed about the impasse, MoD officials were told to try and break the deadlock as soon as possible since the IAF’s fleet of fighter aircraft was precariously poised. Manohar Parrikar took over as defence minister in November 2014.

As the CNC members took the matter to Parrikar he realised the process had been convoluted to such an extent that, it would have been impossible to take it forward. He, however, knew from the briefings given by the IAF, there was no time to lose in acquiring fighter jets. The number of effective squadrons was going down rapidly. The IAF leadership also told him that they were happy with Rafale’s performance and would rather have the fighter in its fleet than scout of other options.

Parrikar took the matter to the Prime Minister and briefed him about the necessity of procuring the fighters urgently. At the same time, Parrikar told Modi, it would be legally untenable to go through with the tender that was being negotiated since the process had got vitiated completely thanks to Antony’s indecisiveness and a crucial oversight in the original terms of the contract.

Under the circumstances, there was no alternative but to withdraw the original tender, Parrikar told Modi since the CVC (Central Vigilance Commission) guidelines provide that negotiations cannot be held with the competitor who has come second in the contract (L2 vendor in officialese). The only way, the then defence minister suggested, was to scrap the tender and buy a minimum number of Rafale jets off the shelf to fill a critical gap in the IAF’s inventory.

The Prime Minister agreed and decided to talk to the French President about such a possibility during his upcoming visit to Paris in April 2015. The Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) also gave its approval to the new proposal before Modi left for Paris on 9 April 2015.

India’s decision was announced at a joint Press Conference between Modi and then French President Francoise Hollande on 10 April 2015. Once the in-principle decision was taken, it was left to Parrikar and his team in the MoD to negotiate the eventual price for buying the 36 jets. Their confidence bolstered by the PMO, the Parrikar-led MoD drove a hard bargain with the French. But it wasn’t until another 15 months later—in September 2016-- that India finally signed the contract and got the state-of-the-art fighters at a competitive price.

Better product, cheaper price

The final negotiated price for 36 Rafale package, along with the initial consignment of weapons, Performance-based Logistics (PBL), simulators along with annual maintenance and associated equipment and services was fixed at 7,890 million Euros. In any case, officials involved in the nitty-gritty of the negotiations pointed out that the package cost of 126 MMRCA and 36 Rafale cannot be directly compared to work out per unit cost as the deliverables in the two cases were quite divergent.

The lower price apart, the Rafales that IAF will operate will have a weapon suite much superior to the ones proposed in the earlier case. They will include Air to Air weapons METEOR Beyond Visual Range Missiles with ranges more than 150 Km, MICA-RF Beyond Visual Range Missiles with ranges more than 80 Km and MICA-IR Close Combat Missiles with ranges more than 60 Km. The Air-Ground weapons include SCALP missiles with a range in excess of 300 Km. The induction of METEOR and SCALP missiles will provide a significant capability edge to the IAF over India’s adversaries.

The Rafale for IAF will have 13 India Specific Enhancement (ISE) capabilities which are not present in the Rafale aircraft being operated by other countries. Three capabilities pertain to Radar enhancements which will provide IAF with better long range capability. One of the specific capability being acquired is the Helmet Mounted Display (HMD) through which the IAF pilots will be able to counter many threats simultaneously. Another very significant capability enhancement sought is the ability to start and operate from 'High Altitude Airfields'.

On the second point about favouring an industrial house close to the Prime Minister, Sandeep Unnithan of India Today has clinically demolished the argument in his piece in the latest issue of India Today, titled the Rafale dogfight (https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/the- ... 2018-07-27). He writes: “Documents provided by Dassault Aviation indicate the Dassault-Reliance JV is one of the 72 partnerships Dassault has forged with Indian industry. Others on the list include Snecma-HAL Aerospace for engine components, Samtel for multi-function cockpit displays, Godrej, Larsen & Toubro and Tata Advanced Systems.”

Moreover, under the Defence Procurement Policy, Dassault Aviation like any other original equipment manufacturer is free to choose its offset partners. Several private companies and not just one besides the Govt of India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) will execute the offset obligations ( supply defence industrial goods, or absorb some of the technology) and NOT co-produce Rafale as described by the uninitiated.

Also as Minister of State for Defence Dr Subhash Bhamre told the Parliament earlier this year, no offset agreements in the Rafale deal have so far been communicated to the MoD. This is not unusual because, under the offset policy, vendors or OEMs are permitted to provide details of their Indian Offset Partners (IOP) either at the time of seeking offset credits or one year prior to discharge of offset obligations.

So, there was no ‘UPA price’ to compare it with an ‘NDA price,’ and two the offset contracts are yet to be finalised.

Clearly, the NDA government’s purchase of Rafale aircraft off the shelf was guided by urgent necessity and not by any other considerations. On the other hand, one must ask the question why did the UPA not show any urgency in procuring the fighter jets when national interest dictated that the IAF’s request be met forthwith? That in my view is the bigger scandal

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 31 Jul 2018 14:05

The Rafale dogfight


The Rafale dogfight

Sandeep Unnithan
New Delhi
July 27, 2018

© SIRPA AIR/ANTHONY JEULAND

The NDA governments 2016 purchase of 36 Rafale fighter aircraft has turned into a political controversy and generated sound and fury in the monsoon session of Parliament, with the Congress questioning the price of the aircraft and alleging crony capitalism. The government has refused to disclose the price of the deal, citing a confidentiality clause with France and reasons of national security. The impasse continues. The full facts of the case should be known when the Comptroller and Auditor General of India (CAG) tables its report before Parliament sometime this year. Until then, here are the big questions raised about the deal and the answers, based on the best obtainable version of the truth.

NDA paid higher price for Rafale, UPA's Rafale was cheaper.

The crux of the entire controversy are allegations that the Narendra Modi government paid a higher price for the 36 Rafale fighter jets than what the UPA had agreed to pay for 126 Rafales in 2012.

The comparison is unfounded because while the NDA actually signed the deal, the UPA hadn't. What doesn't help is the fact that neither government has released the exact cost break-ups of both deals so far. The NDA hinted it had got a better deal when Prime Minister Modi sprung a surprise by announcing it during a state visit to France in April 2015. The MoU signed by Prime Minister Modi and then French president Francois Hollande in 2015 referred to the MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) contract initiated by the Manmohan Singh government in 2004, by agreeing to conclude an inter-governmental agreement (IGA) for supply of aircraft on terms that would be better than conveyed by Dassault Aviation as part of a separate process underway.

The UPA did not reveal the price quoted by Dassault Aviation in 2011 due to which the French warplane maker made it as L-1 or lowest bidder in January 2012. The deal was subsequently logjammed for over two years because the Ministry of Defence (MoD) and Dassault Aviation could not decide on who would take responsibility for the 108 Rafales that would be manufactured under licence in India-HAL or Dassault.

The mammoth price tag possibly also induced a certain amount of purchase anxiety. When the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) had approved the deal in 2007, the MoD envisaged an outgo of $10 billion (Rs 39,000 crore) for the 126 aircraft. This figure was clearly unrealistic as the contract progressed.

Defence analyst Nitin Gokhale's book Securing India the Modi Way mentions that the MoD had, in 2011, benchmarked the total cost of acquisition at Rs 163,403 crore (approximately 23 billion the MoD's entire defence budget for that year).

Going by this figure, the 126 Rafales would have a flyaway cost of Rs 1,296 crore per aircraft. But this total cost of acquisition, as Gokhale adds, was different from the total cost of deliverables in the 126 MMRCA contract, which was benchmarked by the MoD at Rs 69,456 crore, excluding the offset loading cost, estimated to be anywhere between Rs 2,530 crore and Rs 5,060 crore.

The HAL-MoD-Dassault impasse continued even as the NDA assumed office in 2014. In 2015, the government decided to scrap the deal and go for a fresh government-to-government or G2G deal, opting for a smaller number of aircraft because of budgetary reasons. We asked the IAF what was the minimum number of Rafales they needed to meet their combat requirement; 36 is the number they came back to us with, says a senior government official. The Modi government went in for a G2G deal as an emergency procurement. G2G deals are inherently favoured for a variety of reasons because they shorten procurement cycles and cement strategic partnerships. The NDA-1 government signed the massive Su-30MKI deal to import and licence-produce 140 Su-30MKIs from Russia for Rs 22,000 crore in 2000. The UPA signed G2G deals worth over $10 billion with the US for maritime patrol aircraft and heavy lift aircraft between 2006 and 2012.

Off-the-record briefings by the MoD soon after the contract for 36 Rafales was inked in 2016 indicated that a price of 7.8 billion (Rs 59,000 crore) was agreed upon for the 36 aircraft5 billion for the aircraft and 2.85 billion for its weapons and certain India-specific enhancements.

The weapons included Meteor air-to-air missiles and SCALP air-to-ground cruise missiles worth 700 million that were not part of the original MMRCA contract. These India-specific enhancements, one senior government official said in another off-the-record briefing, came at the request of the IAF and were meant to ensure optimal utilisation of a lesser number of Rafales. They included spare parts and performance-based logistics under which the Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) would ensure that the aircraft would be available 75 per cent of the time, and hence able to generate more sorties. It would mean the two Rafale squadrons would be equal to 3.5 squadrons of the IAF's current mainstay, the Su-30MKIs (which have an availability of only 55 per cent). On March 12 this year, minister of state for defence Subhash Bhamre mentioned a ballpark figure of Rs 670 crore for each Rafale minus the associated equipment, weapons, India-specific enhancements, maintenance support and services. The full facts would be revealed only in the CAG report.

Confidentiality clause prevents disclosure of price of the aircraft deal.

At a press conference on November 17 last year, defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman said that the price negotiated by the NDA was much lower than the price negotiated by the UPA when Rafale was found to be L-1. She said that her office would reveal the price later.

But in March, Sitharaman told the Rajya Sabha that as per Article 10 of the IGA between the Government of India and Government of France on the purchase of Rafale aircraft, the protection of the classified information and material exchanged under IGA is governed by the provisions of the security agreement signed between the two nations in 2008. On July 20, Congress president Rahul Gandhi alleged that Sitharaman had lied to Parliament at PM Modi's behest and that the president of France had told him there was no secrecy pact with France.

His statement drew an unusual response from Frances foreign ministry, drawing attention to the 2008 security agreement which legally binds the two states to protect the classified information provided by the partner, that could impact security and operational capabilities of the defence equipment of India or France, the ministry said.

Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman and Rahul Gandhi during the no-confidence motion debate in Lok Sabha on July 20
The deal has two aspects, commercial and technical, weapons and the capabilities of the aircraft and what it cost the nation. While technical capabilities of the aircraft could be deemed classified from the point of national security, there is nothing that prevents the government from disclosing the commercial aspects of the contract to Parliament. The Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence, which comprises representatives of all political parties, routinely receives briefings on sensitive matters of national security from the armed forces, government agencies and the defence ministry. This, in fact, was hinted at by French President Emmanuel Macron in an interview to India today on March 7, 2018. There are some discussions to be organised by the Indian government and they will have to consider which details they will want to be revealed to the opposition and to the Parliament, he said. In other words, it was up to the Indian government to decide what it wanted to discuss with Parliament.

Reliance got to make the aircraft instead of public sector HAL

In his statement in the Lok Sabha on July 20, Congress president Rahul Gandhi said that the Rafale deal has been taken away from HAL and given to a businessman who has benefitted Rs 45,000 crore. The gentleman has never built an aeroplane in his whole life. There is no proposal for Rafale to build the aircraft locally as these are being procured off-the-shelf. What the Congress president was referring to is the offset plan under which Dassault Aviation is to partner with Anil Ambani's Reliance Defence to reinvest 50 per cent of the 36 Rafale deal from partners in Indian industry.

Introduced in 2007, defence offsets are where an OEM has to source between 30 and 50 per cent of the value of a defence contract from the Indian market. In the case of the 36 Rafales, Dassault Aviation has to procure nearly Rs 30,000 crore worth of components and services from Indian industry.

Documents provided by Dassault Aviation indicate the Dassault-Reliance JV is one of the 72 partnerships Dassault has forged with Indian industry. Others on the list include Snecma-HAL Aerospace for engine components, Samtel for multi-function cockpit displays, Godrej, Larsen & Toubro and Tata Advanced Systems.

On October 27, 2017, Anil Ambani and Dassault CEO Eric Trappier laid the foundation stone for a new facility to produce parts of the Falcon business jets under Dassault Reliance Aerospace Limited (DRAL), a 51:49 joint venture between Dassault and Reliance Defence. The facility started commercial production of Dassault's Falcon business jet cockpits in April this year.

The MoDs Defence Procurement Policy leaves the choice of offset partner to the OEM. No offset agreements in the Rafale deal have so far been communicated to the MoD. This is not unusual because under the offset policy, vendors or OEMs are permitted to provide details of their Indian Offset Partners (IOP) either at the time of seeking offset credits or one year prior to discharge of offset obligations, Bhamre told Parliament in March this year.

Procedures bypassed, CCS approval not taken

The Defence Procurement Procedure, which governs all MoD capital acquisitions, mandates that all deals over Rs 3,000 crore be approved by the CCS. The CCS is chaired by the prime minister and includes the cabinet ministers for home, defence, finance and external affairs. It is India's topmost decision-making body for national security. In the case of the 36 Rafales, the deal was announced by Prime Minister Modi in France and inked in an MoU in April 2015. CCS approval for the deal came only on August 24, 2016, or 16 months after the MoU in Paris and exactly a month before the deal was finally signed by French defence minister Jean-Yves Le Drian and his counterpart Manohar Parrikar in New Delhi on September 23, 2016.

However, Paragraph 71 of the DPP, which covers IGA's, mentions occasions when procurements would have to be done from friendly foreign countries, which may be necessitated due to geostrategic advantages that are likely to accrue to our country. Such procurements would not classically follow the Standard Procurement Procedure and the Standard Contract Document, but would be based on mutually agreed provisions by the governments of both the countries. Such procurements will be done based on an IGA after clearance from the CFA (Competent Financial Authority). The CFA in this case is the CCS. But here again, the government seems to be in the clear.

What was announced in April 2015 was only an intent to buy an aircraft. Intentions to buy do not require a formal clearance by the CCS. It is only an IGA, which needs to be cleared and in this case, it was approved a month before the deal was signed in September 2016, says Amit Cowshish, former financial advisor (acquisitions) in the MoD. For how much, we don't know for yet. With the government now hardening its stance and dogged about not revealing this price, it is left to the CAG to reveal the truth about the Rafale deal.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 01 Aug 2018 01:11

https://twitter.com/Chopsyturvey/status ... 7277965312 ---> Interesting fact. The first IAF team to evaluate the CH 47 Chinook went in 1985 and was led by Gp Capt DC Kaushik, but the deal was not pursued then. After 33 years we are now getting set to receive the aircraft.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 01 Aug 2018 23:31


chetak
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 02 Aug 2018 10:25

On a lighter note, here is the video of a C130 Hercules performing a vertical loop.


Lockheed LM-100J C130 Hercules doing an insane vertical loop

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/status/1019538596750069760

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 02 Aug 2018 10:46

chetak wrote:
Kersi wrote:Would these M2K from France create a new sqdn / complete the half Sqdn (No 9 Wolfpacks) or will they be used only for spares ? Any "official" answer from IAF/MOD ?


I very seriously doubt if the french will part with anything that is flyable. At best, parts from these carcasses may be used for deep servicing or at best for recovery of some IAF assets after some minor accidents etc.

Also, it will not be always so easy to recover all these parts in a usable condition. If assembly requires great skill, recovery of parts from an already assembled and much used airframe etc requires far greater skills.

It is beginning to sound more like a marketing gimmick rather than a real value added and viable proposition. The yield in spares may turn out to be rather poor and well below the hype that this idea seems to promise.


AFAIR, and this is from a couple of years ago at least, the IAF was looking for flyable trainers, not christmas trees. The IAF has felt a shortage of twin seat trainers for the Mirage fleet and they had approached the French a few years ago to buy a couple of their twin seaters. With the French now retiring most of their Mirages these must have had some residual life. But with an ongoing Mirage upgrade program, the IAF could easily upgrade these and use them for hopefully another 10 odd years.

Found this link finally after searching quite a bit.

IAF looks to replace crashed Mirage fighter jets

IAF looks to replace crashed Mirage fighter jets
by Saurabh Joshi • September 18, 2012

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is looking to replace the two Mirage 2000 trainer aircraft, which crashed earlier this year.

While the case for the acquisition of the two single-engine trainers is still at a preliminary stage, it is understood that the IAF, ‘desirous’ of getting their ‘numbers up from 49 to 51’ again, is planning to make a pitch for the aircraft to the Ministry of Defense.

Sources told StratPost that the imperative for the purchase was made all the more compelling because the two aircraft that crashed were trainer versions. Until the crashes, the IAF had 10 trainer aircraft, spread over each of the three IAF Mirage 2000 squadrons. Now down to eight, these aircraft are essential for training fresh pilots on the aircraft type. With the shortfall caused by the two crashes, the IAF has decided to ask for the purchase of the two aircraft.

Since, the aircraft is no longer manufactured by the Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM), Dassault, the IAF is planning to identify a foreign air force operating the aircraft, to which the sale can be proposed.

Although the aircraft is operated by nine foreign air forces, only the French Armée de l’Air, and the air forces of the United Arab Emirates, Greece and Taiwan operate them in any significant numbers.

The IAF has plans to operate its Mirage 2000 fleet over at least the next two decades. Last year, India ordered a USD 2.4 billion upgrade package from Dassault and Thales for its Mirage 2000 aircraft, to match the Mirage 2000-5 configuration, followed by a separate weapons package worth USD 1.23 billion for 450 MBDA MICA air-to-air missiles.
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Last edited by Kartik on 02 Aug 2018 11:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 02 Aug 2018 10:50

Kartik wrote:
chetak wrote:
I very seriously doubt if the french will part with anything that is flyable. At best, parts from these carcasses may be used for deep servicing or at best for recovery of some IAF assets after some minor accidents etc.

Also, it will not be always so easy to recover all these parts in a usable condition. If assembly requires great skill, recovery of parts from an already assembled and much used airframe etc requires far greater skills.

It is beginning to sound more like a marketing gimmick rather than a real value added and viable proposition. The yield in spares may turn out to be rather poor and well below the hype that this idea seems to promise.


AFAIR, and this is from a couple of years ago at least, the IAF was looking for flyable trainers, not christmas trees. The IAF has felt a shortage of twin seat trainers for the Mirage fleet and they had approached the French a few years ago to buy a couple of their twin seaters. With the French now retiring most of their Mirages these must have had some residual life. But with an ongoing Mirage upgrade program, the IAF could easily upgrade these and use them for hopefully another 10 odd years.


from what little I know of the frenchies, "flyable" and "free" are a contradiction in terms.

But I do sincerely hope that you are right and I am wrong.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kakarat » 15 Aug 2018 00:46

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1029410113558212608
A calculated decision not to eject from a Jaguar with both engines on fire wins young IAF pilot Squadron Leader Vernon Desmond Keane a Vayu Sena Medal (Gallantry) this #IndependenceDayIndia

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rahul M » 15 Aug 2018 11:56

wow, absolutely nerves of steel ! to make a decision to land with both engines on fire and only one working ! wow again !

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 15 Aug 2018 14:33

^^ Amazing stuff. The young squadron leader will go far high in his career.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 15 Aug 2018 14:38

Flying and fighting in the MiG-27: Interview with a MiG pilot

Image

Fast, brutal and unforgiving, the MiG-27 is a formidable Soviet attack aircraft that continues to serve with the Indian Air Force. Hush-Kit spoke to former MiG-27 pilot Anshuman Mainkar about flying and fighting in this ferocious machine known locally as the Bahadur.


What is the best thing about the MiG-27?

“She was built for low level flying. No doubt about it, the smooth ride she offered down there. And she was fast….I remember a live fire exercise mission flows in card with two French Mirages trailing. On being given a call to push, we engaged afterburners and pulled away from the Mirages, who couldn’t catch up with us after that.”

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ks_sachin » 16 Aug 2018 15:24

Manish_P wrote:^^ Amazing stuff. The young squadron leader will go far high in his career.

Flying is not the only thing that matters as you go up the ladder!

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 16 Aug 2018 17:37

Six Vendors Respond to IAF RFI for 110 Combat Jets, says Air Chief Marshal Dhanoa
http://www.indiastrategic.in/2018/07/11 ... al-dhanoa/

Title of the article is mis-leading - and thus I am NOT posting it in the MRCA thread - but lots of good info in the above interview. Just a small blurb about the MRCA bit.

The IAF sees itself as the guardian of the Indian skies and the first responder in all contingencies. We are therefore 24 x 7 ready to face any situation with our available resources. As far as the drawdown in the strength of fighter squadrons is concerned, it is being given due emphasis. We are upgrading MiG-29, Jaguar and Mirage-2000 aircraft in a phased manner as a part of obsolescence management so that they remain relevant and contemporary. Induction of 36 x Rafale aircraft will commence by September 2019 and will significantly enhance our operational capability. Induction of the balance of 272 x Su-30 MKI aircraft from HAL is under process and will be completed by 2021. The induction of the 40 indigenous LCA is also ongoing. Additionally, the RFP for procurement of 83 x LCA Mk 1A has been issued in December 2017. The Government of India plans to procure fighter aircraft under the ‘Make in India’ initiative for which RFI has been issued on April 6, 2018, and is also examining other suitable options. Future inductions will include the LCA Mk-II, which is expected to form a bulk of the Air Force in the years to come, as the IAF proposes to replace its Mirage-2000, MiG-29 and Jaguar with this aircraft. The IAF is also supporting DRDO in the D&D of indigenous Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA). If all the inductions take place as planned, the IAF is expected to achieve its authorised strength of fighter squadrons by 2040.

At Air Force Day (Oct 2017), Air Chief Marshal Dhanoa said 42 squadrons will be achieved by 2032. Now he has moved the timetable ahead by 8 years to 2040.

The IAF seeks capabilities which are required to maintain its combat preparedness and operational edge over potential adversaries. In that regard, once the deliveries of the license manufactured Su-30 MKI are complete, which is expected by 2021, the IAF will have 13 Squadrons of the Su-30 MKI. As far as additional procurement is concerned, an RFI for 110 fighter aircraft has been hosted by the IAF to meet its operational requirements under Strategic Partnership route.

So now we can safely assume that each Rambha squadron houses 20+ aircraft. 272/13 = 20.9 aircraft.

The RFI for 110 fighter aircraft was hosted on April 6, 2018 and six vendors responded to the RFI. The procurement process would be progressed under the provisions of DPP 2016. The IAF intends to induct 15 per cent of the aircraft in a direct fly away condition which would facilitate a relatively faster induction till the time production is commenced by the Strategic Partner.

While the Air Chief Marshal is correct, the process to induct 15% of the aircraft can only happen once a contract is signed. At the rate, the MoD moves it can take forever! No wonder the magic number of 42 is planned to be achieved only by 2040...21+ years from now. WOW!

The commissioning of the first Squadron of LCA Tejas in July 2016 marks a significant step towards indigenous capability building. Currently, the squadron has nine aircraft and we expect the squadron to be fully equipped by March 2019. The LCA Final Operational Clearance (FOC) contract of 2010 seeks Air-to-Air Refuelling, Operational Data Link (ODL) and better weapons. The FOC is expected in 2019. As far as the LCA Mk 1A is concerned, the first flight is expected by 2020. The LCA Mk 1A apart from addressing obsolescence issues and maintainability improvements will have additional capabilities such as Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles, Air-to-Air Refuelling (AAR) capability, Electronic Warfare (EW) suite and advanced avionics. We are hopeful that ADA and HAL will ensure that the LCA Mk 1A is delivered to IAF on time.

So from now till March 2019, HAL has to deliver 11 aircraft to fully equip No 45 Flying Daggers Sqn. Seven months, 11 aircraft. That is like 1.5 aircraft a month.

LCA Mk1A first flight is expected by 2020. Keeping my fingers crossed!

Akash Missile System performed well during exercise Gagan Shakti. A case has been initiated to procure seven more squadrons of Akash Missile Systems (AMS) from BEL. The first Squadron of SPYDER missile was raised on February 16, 2018. Delivery of equipment for the other three squadrons is under way. The system was also successfully utilised during Exercise Gagan Shakti. The MRSAM programme involves joint development and delivery of Firing Units (FUs) by DRDO in collaboration with Israel Aerospace Industry (IAI), Israel. The contract for joint development and supply of MRSAM was signed between DRDO and IAI, Israel on February 16, 2009. There has been delay in inducting the system, while the first MRSAM Squadron has already been resurrected in 2015, the equipment should be delivered in 2019. The S-400 is in use by the Russian Armed Forces since the year 2007. It is a long range anti aircraft missile system capable of intercepting Ballistic missile and low RCS targets like UAVs and cruise missiles. This system would be a game changer in our context and would provide us the much needed layered Air Defence at long ranges. The acquisition process for the system is under way.

All good news on the missile front. Karan Saar will be able to provide more inputs on the above.

The AD framework of the IAF is indeed being revamped. This is on two counts namely, induction of new state-of-the-art systems, and their integration into a completely networked AD system. As far as the induction of new systems is concerned, the process is proceeding smoothly. There has been a concerted effort to induct cutting edge technology & follow up with indigenous manufacture. The Medium Powered Radar (MPR), Low Level Transportable Radar (LLTR), Low Level Lightweight Radar (LLLWR) categories have all seen infusion of large numbers of indigenously developed and produced radars. This has increased the sensor density manifold in all sectors, including the mountainous regions in the North and East. Acquisition of HPRs, Aerostats and mountain radars will further reinforce this.The integration of these increased numbers of systems into a highly automated system was undertaken indigenously with BEL being the lead agency. I am happy to state that the system was tested extensively in the exercise and proved itself as a robust force multiplier. IAF has graduated from a point defence, to area defence and is now moving towards layered defence.

Again, Karan Saar can provide more detailed insight on this.

The deployment of AWACS during the exercise was as per the exercise setting. To overcome the inadequacy, one DRDO developed AEW&C aircraft on Embraer platform has been inducted and the second aircraft is likely to be developed in FoC configuration by the end of 2018. The procurement case for two additional IL-76 based AWACS is presently with MoD and is at CFA approval stage. Indigenous AWACS (I) programme for up to six aircraft is being progressed by DRDO. As an immediate measure, to meet the urgent operational requirements, IAF is also exploring latest technology aircraft available globally which are operational and in use.

I hope we get two more Phalcons. Badly needed. Two Netra AEW&C are not not enough, although the six indigenous AWACS is a good shot in the arm. I believe it is still to be based on an A330 platform. I wonder what aircraft the IAF is looking at in the interim for additional AWACS as mentioned by the Air Chief.

The IAF is progressing the case of upgrading the existing UAV fleet. Also, the Medium Altitude Low Endurance (MALE) RPA TAPAS (earlier called Rustom-II) is being developed by DRDO. The platform is to be developed as a weaponised platform. The IAF is seeking UAVs with stealth features which can enter contested airspace. IAF is exploring various options.

If Tapas can be successfully weaponized, that would be fantastic! And stealth UAVs...this jingo is excited!

Two women fighter pilots are presently progressing through their Conversion Syllabus on Bison aircraft. Both have successfully carried out their solo flight. They are likely to complete their Day Ops Syllabus by end of the year and be Fully Ops by March 2019.

More combat pilots we can induct the better! And work towards improving combat aircraft serviceability. Both will result in a higher tempo of sorties in war time.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nam » 16 Aug 2018 17:55

We need to have a second aircraft manufacturer other than HAL. Since now majority of the current & future induction(LCA, AMCA, UCAV, TAPAS,SU-30,Dhruv,LCH ) are coming from a single source i.e HAL, it has become a major bottleneck to meet the numbers.

Earlier we could dependent on sources like France or Russia, which could help with the numbers. In the years ahead, that will not be the case.

We need another private aerospace company.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kakarat » 16 Aug 2018 18:08

Rakesh wrote:Six Vendors Respond to IAF RFI for 110 Combat Jets, says Air Chief Marshal Dhanoa
http://www.indiastrategic.in/2018/07/11 ... al-dhanoa/

Title of the article is mis-leading - and thus I am NOT posting it in the MRCA thread - but lots of good info in the above interview. Just a small blurb about the MRCA bit.

The commissioning of the first Squadron of LCA Tejas in July 2016 marks a significant step towards indigenous capability building. Currently, the squadron has nine aircraft and we expect the squadron to be fully equipped by March 2019. The LCA Final Operational Clearance (FOC) contract of 2010 seeks Air-to-Air Refuelling, Operational Data Link (ODL) and better weapons. The FOC is expected in 2019. As far as the LCA Mk 1A is concerned, the first flight is expected by 2020. The LCA Mk 1A apart from addressing obsolescence issues and maintainability improvements will have additional capabilities such as Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles, Air-to-Air Refuelling (AAR) capability, Electronic Warfare (EW) suite and advanced avionics. We are hopeful that ADA and HAL will ensure that the LCA Mk 1A is delivered to IAF on time.

So from now till March 2019, HAL has to deliver 11 aircraft to fully equip No 45 Flying Daggers Sqn. Seven months, 11 aircraft. That is like 1.5 aircraft a month.

LCA Mk1A first flight is expected by 2020. Keeping my fingers crossed!



Small correction, now that the Trainers are not coming till Trainer FOC the full squadron (-Trainers) is only 16. so HAL has to deliver only 7 Tejas including SP-10 which recently flew for no 45 to be full strength, if they deliver this only by March 2019 then they would have produced only 7 Tejas in financial year 18-19. Now that the Mk-1A will fly only in 2020 then I don't think we will see a increase in no of Tejas per year as they wouldn't want to keep the line Idle

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Bala Vignesh » 17 Aug 2018 00:32

Ramana garu,

There are some aircraft that are held by institutions like TACDE and ASTE permanently, usually about half an operational combat squadron. So the actual no of aircraft held by combat squadron would be lower than 272. So that would mean the unit holding would be lower than 20.9 per unit.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 17 Aug 2018 05:02

Bala, the actual number (after the full production run is complete) would be 265 as there have been seven crashes to date. It was my understanding that the production run would be complete by 2019, but now Air Chief Marshal Dhanoa is saying 2021. Now if the MoD approves the additional 40 - 60 birds, the number will go up to 305 - 325 birds. And yes TACDE and ASTE will have a few aircraft under their command as well.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Khalsa » 17 Aug 2018 06:33

^^^ Admiral Saar, I assume the seven crashed would be replaced as well

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Lalmohan » 17 Aug 2018 15:11

re the purchase of old mirages... I wonder if the deal is actually for the stockpile of their spares that the French would have had to support the fleet (pumps, motors, valves, actuators, control units, etc.), and the airframes are being thrown in on top. the airframes themselves are not of high value

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 17 Aug 2018 19:12

We need at least 5 more Phalcons, not just 2.The IL-476 platforms aren't very costly, but the radar and AWACS suite of Israeli origin mainly costs a bomb.Given the far superior range, etc. of the IL-476s, the DRDO should try fitting the indigenous planar radar onto the platform instead of the rotating "chapatti".If I'm not mistaken, such a config. was done by the Sovs during the CW on large platforms including TU-95 Bears.

EMBs being used now give inferior range and endurance.We would need some based in the ANC.
Alternatively, even the US Hawkeye platform, which was being considered for our large CV, could be looked at , but that too has a rotating radar and one wonders how a masala of AEW systems would be effectively supported.The best way to go is to acquire a suitable platform on the cheap and equip it with as much desi AEW eqpt.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kakarat » 17 Aug 2018 19:55

Philip wrote:We need at least 5 more Phalcons, not just 2.The IL-476 platforms aren't very costly, but the radar and AWACS suite of Israeli origin mainly costs a bomb.Given the far superior range, etc. of the IL-476s, the DRDO should try fitting the indigenous planar radar onto the platform instead of the rotating "chapatti".If I'm not mistaken, such a config. was done by the Sovs during the CW on large platforms including TU-95 Bears.


Stalled AWACS deals hit Air Force

India, in contrast, continues to flounder. The case for two more “follow-on” Phalcon AWACS, in the tripartite deal with with Russia and Israel, remains stuck due to sharp cost escalation, as was earlier reported by TOI.

Sources say the government is ready to pay only about $800 million for the two AWACS, and not the $1.3 billion being demanded by the original equipment manufacturers.

Russia has majorly jacked up the prices for the IL-76s, which is unacceptable to the government,” said a source.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 17 Aug 2018 20:12

Kakarat wrote:
Philip wrote:We need at least 5 more Phalcons, not just 2.The IL-476 platforms aren't very costly, but the radar and AWACS suite of Israeli origin mainly costs a bomb.Given the far superior range, etc. of the IL-476s, the DRDO should try fitting the indigenous planar radar onto the platform instead of the rotating "chapatti".If I'm not mistaken, such a config. was done by the Sovs during the CW on large platforms including TU-95 Bears.


Stalled AWACS deals hit Air Force

India, in contrast, continues to flounder. The case for two more “follow-on” Phalcon AWACS, in the tripartite deal with with Russia and Israel, remains stuck due to sharp cost escalation, as was earlier reported by TOI.

Sources say the government is ready to pay only about $800 million for the two AWACS, and not the $1.3 billion being demanded by the original equipment manufacturers.

Russia has majorly jacked up the prices for the IL-76s, which is unacceptable to the government,” said a source.



It can’t possibly be the russkis’ fault! It must be those damn Israelis!

BTW, the Phalcons were a great coup. The whole thing was designed for the PLAAF until Washington embargoed and we swooped in and got a premier AWACS system which at the same time was denied to our main rival.

That said, the system was designed around the IL-76 which has become a damn avenue to Russian blackmail. Time to put our full attention and money on the A330 based AEW system. The Embraer mounted AEW&C will be a complementary system.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 18 Aug 2018 21:04

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 2155677703 ---> Squadron Leader Venky (EO), Flying Officer Ashutosh Lal, Squadron Leader Kulwant, Squadron Leader Sablokh (Flight Commander), Flying Officer Ajay Shukla, Wing Commander Unni Kartha (CO), Squadron Leader Alam (STO), Squadron Leader Dhar, Flying Officer Ajay Pathania and Flying Officer Ajay Dogra of No.104 Squadron with their Mi-25 after firing 9K114 Shturm ATGM.

9K114 Shturm ATGM = AT-6 Spiral
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9K114_Shturm

No. 104 Helicopter Squadron, IAF
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._104_H ... adron,_IAF

Can someone provide the abbreviation for EO and STO? I am assuming Engineering Officer and Senior Technical Officer.

Image

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 19 Aug 2018 02:44

Each and everyone of the pilots and gunners are wearing different colored overalls...how does that come to be?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ks_sachin » 19 Aug 2018 13:09

Different laundry schedule!!

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby dinesh_kimar » 19 Aug 2018 13:57

^ the overalls are different color , I understand, depending on terrain one is flying over.

The std. blue has now given way to US style grey green.

The training apparently took place in the same helicopter, with single shot shared b/w pilot and weapon officer.
The others ride along shot gun to learn and observe from the live team.
This points to creative use of resources and training budget , when cash may not have been readily avbl.

A Guess: the above gents are rotated thru a training module for 2-3 weeks, to learn abt the Shtrum. Instructor would be trained in Russia. The classes will have few or no cut section modules to understand the system better. All training imparted with blackboard on chalk diagrams by instructor.
The trainees draw the diagrams on their note books, and study them in the evening ( the most dedicated only), when back at their rooms. They have about 2 Tests on the course content and final exam is taking the test shot. Qualified blokes get a badge.

It works.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Zynda » 19 Aug 2018 14:04

Found this on Keypub forums...
The USArmy recently shared its AH-64E upgrade plans with industry. The AH-64E Ver. 6 (2018-2026) will see several key upgrades; doubling of its radar's range (~16km), Maritime threat detection and targeting (FCR), Extended range MUMT-X, improved navigation, and communication.

Image

Without us signing CAATSA and/or similarly other US acronym treaties, how much of the above upgrades can our Apaches get based on existing contractual agreements?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby dinesh_kimar » 19 Aug 2018 14:19

To improve training under a tight budget the following can be done.
- Dummy cut section rounds made avbl from EME workshop,DrDO labs.

- CAD drawings made avbl on computer in training area.

- The instructors manual and notes digitized and put on a computer.

- The dummy prototypes of different warheads and seeker heads of the missile.

- Dummy rounds which meet weight or dimension requirements, can be used for hands on training.

- performance graph of each missile made avbl.

- Test/ evaluation team results of each missile made avbl.when missile was purchased.

- the launcher and actual missile ( one system only) disassembled ( all modules )

- video of other test shot.

- post analysis of trainees test shot captured on graph/ camera.

- simulator if possible.

If all the above is made avbl, then training scores / results will vastly improve even with only one test or practice shot.

-

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ks_sachin » 19 Aug 2018 14:57

dinesh_kimar wrote:To improve training under a tight budget the following can be done.
- Dummy cut section rounds made avbl from EME workshop,DrDO labs.

- CAD drawings made avbl on computer in training area.

- The instructors manual and notes digitized and put on a computer.

- The dummy prototypes of different warheads and seeker heads of the missile.

- Dummy rounds which meet weight or dimension requirements, can be used for hands on training.

- performance graph of each missile made avbl.

- Test/ evaluation team results of each missile made avbl.when missile was purchased.

- the launcher and actual missile ( one system only) disassembled ( all modules )

- video of other test shot.

- post analysis of trainees test shot captured on graph/ camera.

- simulator if possible.

If all the above is made avbl, then training scores / results will vastly improve even with only one test or practice shot.

-

You know or is this a hypothesis wrapped in a suggestion?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 19 Aug 2018 17:25

I would love to see the prices offered for IL-476s and A-330s.My findings from various sites are that an IL-476 incl.spares, trg.infra, etc. is $115M (DID website).An A- 330 on the other hand at 2018 prices costs a whopping $240M a pop! More than twice the cost of an IL.So the myth of evil Russkies ripping us off needs to be put in proper perspective.This is why the idea of acquiring A-330s( an AEW model was shown at the DRDO pavilion 2 air shows ago) has been shot down.

Incidentally, the upgraded IL-78 tanker version also flew
in Jan.2018, there is a Janes' report.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 22 Aug 2018 23:03

IAF to fly Jaguars for next 10 yrs

Read more at: https://www.deccanherald.com/national/i ... 83973.html

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 22 Aug 2018 23:43

link to Twitter

Commemmorating affiliation between JAKLI Regt and 51 Sqn Air Force & in a symbolic display of jointness, Lt Gen Satish Dua, CISC and Col of JAKLI Regt flew in a Mig 21sortie piloted by Gp Capt Satish Pawar, CO 51 Sqn Air Force today at Srinagar @SpokespersonMoD @IAF_MCC @ adgpi


MiG-21UM Mongol flown by No.51 Squadron

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Indranil » 23 Aug 2018 03:57

Philip wrote:I would love to see the prices offered for IL-476s and A-330s.My findings from various sites are that an IL-476 incl.spares, trg.infra, etc. is $115M (DID website).

IAF is looking for to quick and fast IL-476s to mount the Israeli chapatis on. Apparently, the Russians are asking for a phenomenal price. $115 for an IL-476 is not a phenomenal price. Just saying.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 23 Aug 2018 04:21

Philip wrote:I would love to see the prices offered for IL-476s and A-330s.My findings from various sites are that an IL-476 incl.spares, trg.infra, etc. is $115M (DID website).An A- 330 on the other hand at 2018 prices costs a whopping $240M a pop! More than twice the cost of an IL.So the myth of evil Russkies ripping us off needs to be put in proper perspective.This is why the idea of acquiring A-330s( an AEW model was shown at the DRDO pavilion 2 air shows ago) has been shot down.

Incidentally, the upgraded IL-78 tanker version also flew
in Jan.2018, there is a Janes' report.

Frankly is hardly be surprised if the iaf and mod were just waiting for the Russians to figure out the initial bugs in performance and production, and once this is done, they might just jump on these for a myriad of roles.


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