Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ks_sachin » 06 Feb 2019 07:39

I think it is time that we collectively decided enough is enough and get LCA production ramped and increase the size of the MK1 order itself. Mk1A and MK2 will come when they come....

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby suryag » 06 Feb 2019 08:57

+koti atleast to replace those old rickety 21s and give our boys a safer plane, 1A can replace the M2K and 2 can replace the leylands

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ks_sachin » 06 Feb 2019 12:13

Leyland??

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby suryag » 06 Feb 2019 13:11

Yeah the smoky 29s

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 06 Feb 2019 13:20

To deliver large pipeline of tejas hal needs 3 things

1. Large cash upfront to build own lines and pay suppliers in bulk for large sets of long lead items. Remember many suppliers are not rich but small cos
2. No more change requests on frozen tranches. If you want a new seat cushion or coffee cup holder wait for next tranche. Atleast freeze every nut bolt for lots of 48 except if its a life critical fix. when large nos are in squadrons, some can always be rotated back for refits and tinkering same way the USAF fleet of 450 F15C/E continues to get small and big updates culminating in funding now for the F-15CX level. but operate them in proper squadrons and make them work. they also have a troop of 1000 F-16s not all of which are at same std.

Given 1 and 2 you still need
3. Patience - the pipe will need 2-3 years to fill and become a torrent. In meantime stop heckling hal asking why they cannot do it while airbus delivers 10 a350 monthly

Otherwise you wont be getting 50b on foreign shopping trips so be resigned to decline in numbers and live with it, if I were the PM I would make it public that none 1 paisa is available for fancy SEF and MRCA2 circus when so many people and sectors need help. we are not under imminent threat of any war and the gentleman knights must curtail their taste for fresh arabi racehorses every season. older locally bred hardy corolla/civic type "mules" have to do.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ks_sachin » 06 Feb 2019 16:36

suryag wrote:Yeah the smoky 29s

Ah. Don’t cast aspersions on one of my favourite trucks and in later life my favourite plane.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nam » 06 Feb 2019 17:35

What we need is confirmed orders. Tell HAL it will be 320 LCA. Whatever version is completed development, it will produced next.

The production line does not stop, because a version development is beyond schedule. Upgrade older version, if need be.

Requirement like IOC only 16, FOC only 16, will order MK1A once it flies, MK2 only after development is done, yada yada, is not going to give us numbers.

If this is the case, then I will hold HAL responsible for production numbers.

But then IAF is looking for perfection..

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 06 Feb 2019 18:17

MIGA - Make India Great Again.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby hemant_sai » 06 Feb 2019 19:53

nam wrote:What we need is confirmed orders. Tell HAL it will be 320 LCA. Whatever version is completed development, it will produced next.

The production line does not stop, because a version development is beyond schedule. Upgrade older version, if need be.

Requirement like IOC only 16, FOC only 16, will order MK1A once it flies, MK2 only after development is done, yada yada, is not going to give us numbers.

If this is the case, then I will hold HAL responsible for production numbers.

But then IAF is looking for perfection..

What about horrible delays in upgrades and Sukhoi production. Is IAF responsible here as well?
Regarding Tejas development, what HAL management is doing? Don't they have any skills to put forth a process regarding customer requirements and timelines of validity of those requirements itself. I do accept there might be folks in IAF who advocate imports but I equally believe that there are folks in HAL who are not at all serious about Tejas. After all requirements and timelines are discussed with HAL and not forced on them.
For that matter I would like to know at least one program run by HAL for which we should appreciate its program management and seriousness of timelines.
It is high time HAL should get reforms.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nam » 06 Feb 2019 22:01

hemant_sai wrote:What about horrible delays in upgrades and Sukhoi production. Is IAF responsible here as well?
Regarding Tejas development, what HAL management is doing? Don't they have any skills to put forth a process regarding customer requirements and timelines of validity of those requirements itself. I do accept there might be folks in IAF who advocate imports but I equally believe that there are folks in HAL who are not at all serious about Tejas. After all requirements and timelines are discussed with HAL and not forced on them.
For that matter I would like to know at least one program run by HAL for which we should appreciate its program management and seriousness of timelines.
It is high time HAL should get reforms.


HAL is delayed making 150+ Su30, not 16 of them. Which is why I said, give 320 order to HAL and then hold it responsible. Not order only 16 and make absurd claim HAL has not set up 24 per year line!

LCA is been developed by ADA, not HAL. So HAL cannot refuse IAF requirement.

ALH production run has been extremely good. They have been produced faster than IA could have enough men to use them. They are waiting at HAL airport.

And ironically enough LCA is the only jet produced by HAL which has 100% safety record.

So it is not black and white. I support the plastering HAL is receiving, however we need to give them 300 + LCA order, then pass opinion.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 07 Feb 2019 04:04

Singha wrote:To deliver large pipeline of tejas hal needs 3 things

1. Large cash upfront to build own lines and pay suppliers in bulk for large sets of long lead items. Remember many suppliers are not rich but small cos
2. No more change requests on frozen tranches. If you want a new seat cushion or coffee cup holder wait for next tranche. At least freeze every nut bolt for lots of 48 except if its a life critical fix. when large nos are in squadrons, some can always be rotated back for refits and tinkering same way the USAF fleet of 450 F15C/E continues to get small and big updates culminating in funding now for the F-15CX level. but operate them in proper squadrons and make them work. they also have a troop of 1000 F-16s not all of which are at same std.

Given 1 and 2 you still need
3. Patience - the pipe will need 2-3 years to fill and become a torrent. In meantime stop heckling hal asking why they cannot do it while airbus delivers 10 a350 monthly

Otherwise you wont be getting 50b on foreign shopping trips so be resigned to decline in numbers and live with it, if I were the PM I would make it public that none 1 paisa is available for fancy SEF and MRCA2 circus when so many people and sectors need help. we are not under imminent threat of any war and the gentleman knights must curtail their taste for fresh arabi racehorses every season. older locally bred hardy corolla/civic type "mules" have to do.

Fantastic post. Need to pin this and read it like a mantra every morning!

Singha....+108!

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 07 Feb 2019 04:08

suryag wrote:Yeah the smoky 29s

Those smoky 29s are gone I believe. After the UPG upgrade, the engine was upgraded to a smokeless RD-33 series 3 if I am not mistaken. The Indian Navy's MiG-29Ks have the RD-33MK variant, which are also smokeless.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 07 Feb 2019 04:10

ks_sachin wrote:I think it is time that we collectively decided enough is enough and get LCA production ramped and increase the size of the MK1 order itself. Mk1A and MK2 will come when they come....

Fully agree. Right now Mk1 is the only option staring at us in the face. Swap the 83 Mk1A order (four squadrons) to 120 Mk1s (six squadrons). The Mk1 can be upgraded to the Mk1A anyway.

So 120 Mk1s + 40 Mk1s (already being made now) = 160 Mk1s (8 squadrons) in total, which can all be upgraded to the Mk1A at a later date.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 07 Feb 2019 04:32

Rakesh wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:I think it is time that we collectively decided enough is enough and get LCA production ramped and increase the size of the MK1 order itself. Mk1A and MK2 will come when they come....

Fully agree. Right now Mk1 is the only option staring at us in the face. Swap the 83 Mk1A order (four squadrons) to 120 Mk1s (six squadrons). The Mk1 can be upgraded to the Mk1A anyway.

So 120 Mk1s + 40 Mk1s (already being made now) = 160 Mk1s (8 squadrons) in total, which can all be upgraded to the Mk1A at a later date.

Where are these figures from saar? As of August 2018 the situation was this: http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease. ... lid=181532

For production of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has got orders from Indian Air Force (IAF) for 40 aircrafts {20 Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) standard and 20 Final Operational Clearance (FOC) standard}. 20 IOC contract was signed on 31st March 2006 to be completed by December 2011 and 20 FOC contract was signed on 23rd December 2010 to be completed by 2016. IOC for LCA Tejas was received in December, 2013.

<snip>

Besides, 40 LCA Tejas aircrafts (20 IOC & 20 FOC), Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) has cleared acquisition of 83 LCA Mk1A aircraft with enhanced capabilities with Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar, Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Missile, Self-Protection Jammer (SPJ) and Air-to-Air Refuelling (AAR) for which quotation has been submitted by HAL.

This information was given by Raksha Rajya Mantri Dr. Subhash Bhamre in a written reply to Shri Harivansh in Rajya Sabha today.


So total confirmed order is 20 Mk1 (IOC), 20 Mk1 (FOC) only. the 83 order for Mk1A has been cleared by DAC, but that by itself means nothing. As we were saying in the Navy thread, DAC has cleared P-75I several times till now with no actual decision being made.

Has the 83 Mk1A order been confirmed since then?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 07 Feb 2019 04:38

No it has not. That is the frustration nachiket! I want to go up to the MoD Babu, shake him and say WAKE UP!!!!

The numbers on the 40 are confirmed. No movement on 83 - as you have stated above. The 120 is a figment of my imagination.

I am afraid we will wait till Mk1A's development T's are all crossed, I's are all dotted and handed to the MoD with a red bow for production to commence. Too Late?

Waiting for the conclusion of the mythical white unicorn called MMRCA 3.0 (for 110 fighters) is foolishness.

Increasing squadron strength via the acquisition of current aircraft in service, is the only quick turnaround solution right now.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 07 Feb 2019 04:40

Singha wrote:Given 1 and 2 you still need
3. Patience - the pipe will need 2-3 years to fill and become a torrent. In meantime stop heckling hal asking why they cannot do it while airbus delivers 10 a350 monthly

If we look at Rafale deal, the terms were 3 full years before IAF will receive the first Rafale after the contract is signed. Dassault did not start augmenting their assembly lines and ordering components based on DAC clearance or IAF assurance that they will order X number of jets. They waited till ink was dry on the contract to begin that. Keep in mind they already had other confirmed orders to fulfill and the money to invest in the assembly line and order components. For HAL, IAF is the only customer.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 07 Feb 2019 06:56

Three years is industry standard, from contract signature to delivery of the first batch.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ks_sachin » 07 Feb 2019 06:57

Rakesh wrote:
suryag wrote:Yeah the smoky 29s

Those smoky 29s are gone I believe. After the UPG upgrade, the engine was upgraded to a smokeless RD-33 series 3 if I am not mistaken. The Indian Navy's MiG-29Ks have the RD-33MK variant, which are also smokeless.

reminds me of the engine less Train 18!!!

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 07 Feb 2019 12:21

For IAF B737 BBJ

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Khalsa » 07 Feb 2019 15:02

Rakesh wrote:Based on the above two articles (posted by JTull and myself), in 2025 the IAF will look like this onlee...
MiG-29UPG: 3 Squadrons
Mirage 2000I/TI: 3 Squadrons (delayed and unlikely to be completed by 2025)
Jaguar Darin III: 5 Squadrons (delayed and unlikely to be completed by 2025)
Su-30MKI: 13.5 Squadrons (I am going to go with the 8 attrition replacement number, instead of the rumoured 40 order)
Rafale F3R: 2 Squadrons
Tejas Mk1: 2 Squadrons
Tejas Mk1A: 4 Squadrons (delayed and unlikely to be completed by 2025)



Doing a post like the Admiral does quite often to stocktake the situation at hand or in the future.
The post is in the context of HAL, current crash leading to people waking up, where as few of us on BR having been saying this all the time.
HAL is either picking up or being given to much of everything.

Mig-29 UPG - Any mods or subsequent upgrades. Send to Mother Rossiya for continual upgrades till end of life.
Pick up Malaysian Mig-29s to make up for attrition and/or create War Reserves.

Mirage - 2000 - Back to France for upgrades. Bargain hard for no penalty for moving it back to France by buying any other worthy air frames from France or UAE. Create a proper 3 squadron force. None of this 2.5 etc bs.

Jaguars - Bite the goddamn bullet and go with Honey Well or whoever the single vendor is. Do not give to HAL. Move all upgrade work to offshore.
Do not invest Human capital or time into supporting the upgrade aircraft whose lineage is about to end.

Su-30 MKI - get the attrition replacements. Sneak in orders more than 8 (maybe 16) and create yourself some War Wastage Reserves.

Rafale - Yeah political suicide for any gov. Enough is enough.
Order another 4 now as reserves and be done with it.

Tejas Mk1 - on track to being done for both squadrons.

Tejas Mk1A - forget the Air Force, dear HAL and get the prototype out there and flying.
Start parking them on the apron like Dhruvs. Get more serious about your own future than what you currently are.

Tejas Mk2 - I don't even know where this is.

AMCA - umm wake up. We are going to need this flying in 2030.

Continue to dangle the MMRCA carrot to avoid CATSA , MATSA and all that BS , khan tries to scare us with.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ks_sachin » 07 Feb 2019 15:14

Khalsa--

Bite the bullet and decide that Jaguar will be phased out as Mk1 LCA comes in .Rather than pay honeywell start progressively retiring them.

I think LCA MK1 is better than Jag and I am not worried about ferry range especially in the western sector.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ks_sachin » 07 Feb 2019 15:18

We keep comparing LCA to Mig 21 or Mirage 2000.
Any analysis on whether it can replace the Jags?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby VKumar » 07 Feb 2019 22:47

We should order one squadron of Rafale every year for the next 10years, at least 5. We already have invested in infrastructure, training, arms, strategy, tactics. And it's L1

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 07 Feb 2019 23:25

^^there was some pilot interview on hushkit or some other forum (cant check in office), which mentioned that at low altitudes, M2k is no match for Jags.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 07 Feb 2019 23:29

ks_sachin wrote:We keep comparing LCA to Mig 21 or Mirage 2000.
Any analysis on whether it can replace the Jags?

If memory serves me correctly, I believe IR Saar mentioned that Tejas is comparable to Jaguar.

If he sees your post, he can provide more clarity. I do not want to put words in his mouth.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Indranil » 08 Feb 2019 00:38

It is difficult to say what is the 1:1 replacements.
LCA Mk1/Mk1A are apt replacements for Mig-21s, but don't have the legs of Mirage 2000s/Jaguars
LCA Mk2 is now a completely different beast with a 16 ton MTOW. Significantly, better internal fuel and payload capability. It will certainly be more capable than the Jaguars/Mirages-2000s. It won't have the same A2A as the Mig-29s. The AMCAs/Rafales should take on that mantle.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ks_sachin » 08 Feb 2019 06:35

Question is whether it is really worth it to reeigine the Jag.
Can a changed force structure of Mk1, Mirage 2000, Su, Rafael do those specific tasks that the Jags are tasked for?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 08 Feb 2019 07:03

It all comes down to cost.The Raffy is outrageously expensive.At least 3 29/35s or 4 LCAs come for the same price of one Raffy.M2K upgrades v.expensive too,$50+M a pop! We should standardise upon 320+ MKIs, with the majority upgraded to SS std., likewise a similar no. of LCAs and around 180 upgraded M2Ks, 29s Rafales, along with 120 Jags.This will give us around 900 aircraft, 45 sqds and 6 types.As legacy aircraft retire, esp.Jags, new LCAs- if production picks up substantially, or extra new twin-engined 29UPG/35s replace them sqd-wise.The most cost-effective and capable solution which will give us both a qualitative and quantitative edge over Pak.The bulk of the MKIs could be used against the PLAAF.Limited buys of SU-57s and the AMCA sometime post 2030 will replace all med. sized aircraft, leaving for the future only SU-57,SU-30 SS/MKI,Rafales, AMCA and LCAs. By 2030 we shoild have around 1200 aircraft in service to meet the Sino- Pak JV. 45 sqds
. will be insufficient.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ks_sachin » 08 Feb 2019 07:07

Philip while cost and capability go hand in hand I am here focussing on capability only - it is a theoretical exercise.
The battlefield of the 80s is different perhaps because of the capabilities that are availabe today.
So queston is are Jags needed...

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Mort Walker » 08 Feb 2019 07:17

Austin wrote:For IAF B737 BBJ


This appears to be ECM/SPS for 2 B777 Head of State aircraft. The counter measure and protection suites and not for the actual aircraft. Not B737 Boeing Business Jets.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 08 Feb 2019 07:32

How durable is the jaguar airframe. If its aything like the 20,000 hrs being claimed for the f15 then we should keep on using and pay RR for new adour 811 engines

We have a lot of jaguar

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ks_sachin » 08 Feb 2019 08:02

SIngha the question is what is the minimum viable product in terms of a Jag. Is the engine upgrade absolutely necessary?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 08 Feb 2019 09:35

Its claimed needed for hot n high airbases like leh

Else it should be fine . Obviously cannot match the climb rate and high alt perf of a fighter

Rafale is the child of marriage between jag and m2k

RR can no doubt continue to build fresh new Adour811 engines so long as we pay. for some money they can even do some tinkering a fit a FADEC , EDE changes etc. but their proposal was rejected for the more powerful and advanced honeywell engine which is now a stone around our necks!!

they wanted to make a mini Rafale out of the jaguar - just fitting a F135 engine isnt enough...the airframe is not built for speed and wing loading is high. its also small airframe and not much room for stuffing in more EW gear. it already lifts a very respectable palette of weapons like 6 x 1000lb iron bombs or PGMs and 2 asraams/r550.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 08 Feb 2019 09:56

ks_sachin wrote:SIngha the question is what is the minimum viable product in terms of a Jag. Is the engine upgrade absolutely necessary?

Please drag & drop this image into a new browser window. This is the transition to Darin-II from the basic airframe. One can imagine Darin-III would have added even more weight with Elta's AESA radar, other gadgetry and newer weapons.

F125 reportedly offers 43.8 kN (~ 9,850 lbs) of wet thrust compared to the Adour Mk 811's engine of 32.5 kN (7,300 lbs) of wet thrust. That is roughly 2,500+ lbs of more thrust. That is a much welcome boost of thrust for the Jaguar with a Darin-III upgrade.

The IAF considers the engine upgrade to be a much needed boost. But with the cost escalation by Honeywell, I do not think this will ever see the light of day.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 08 Feb 2019 10:04

Singha wrote:RR can no doubt continue to build fresh new Adour811 engines so long as we pay. for some money they can even do some tinkering a fit a FADEC , EDE changes etc. but their proposal was rejected for the more powerful and advanced honeywell engine which is now a stone around our necks!!

An old article from June 2009! I doubt RR would even entertain the Indian Govt on this issue.

Rolls-Royce engine test proves Adour MK 821 is fit for Indian Jaguar requirement
https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/press ... aguar.aspx

The MoD Babus expect foreign OEMs to behave like them onlee. Take their own sweet time and keep a contract open at the same price for eternity. I do not blame Honeywell for the cost escalation. The MoD dilly-dallied on this for 10+ years. Now the IAF has to suffer the consequence. The MoD Babu(s) who sat on the file gets guaranteed pension after he/she retires. Babus do not give two sh!ts about the IAF or the services in general. Defence Ministry is just another ministry onlee, just another notch on the belt. Get promotion and move on to the next Ministry.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Indranil » 08 Feb 2019 10:07

Sachin Sir,

The jaguars are specialist for three reasons:
1. It has phenomenal rough field performance.
2. It has exceptional low altitude/terrain hugging performance
3. It has very good endurance for an aircraft of its size.

Together with DARIN III upgrades, new engines and AESA radars, it probably is one of the best DPSAs in the world.

The reengining of Jaguars was a no brainer 10 years back. Thanks to our bean counters, an obvious deal was delayed and complicated to the point, that it has become economically unviable today. Honeywell doesn’t give a damn anymore. And the costs now for the residual life of the Jaguars, put big questionmarks on the reengining. But, one can ask the question, if we can get New radars and missiles for the Jags now, why not new engines?

The problem is nothing will move for another 5 years.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Indranil » 08 Feb 2019 10:11

Philip Sir, Rafales cost is 1.6 times that of a Mig-29. The Mikoyan chief himself said that. I think this the fourth or fifth time that I am saying this.

The flyaway cost of Rafale is about 100 million and that of a Mig-35 60 Million. Give or take some. The avionics on Rafale is a couple of generations ahead.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby JayS » 08 Feb 2019 10:15

Singha wrote:How durable is the jaguar airframe. If its aything like the 20,000 hrs being claimed for the f15 then we should keep on using and pay RR for new adour 811 engines

We have a lot of jaguar


No other aircraft has that jkind of life. Even for F15, its not an intended one but likely a result of improved life prediction methods and use of Damage Tolerance methodology. In simple words it was overdesigned by todays standards. Design life was 8000h as other US fighters. Now extended life stands at 20000h. It could even reach 32000h.

Jags will be retired by 2035 with upgrades. Without upgrades in 2025. Given the unvelievably ridiculous 40Mil cost per jet only for Engines. Honeywell is demanding per engine cost which is twice the cost of F135, the latest and greatest thing in Jet engines today. Which clearly shows they are least interested in this deal. If we sign, god only knows what else they will demand later. Its a bad idea. Better IAF nvest the money in MK2 and push for it.

In some parallel universe, where India is ambitious they must have started pushing for HTFE40.

But my question is - is the concept of DPSA by flying below the radar is valid anymore or needed badly...? Why are we looking at 1-to-1 replacement at all..? Can we replace Jag along with its missions with LCA with alternate weapons and missions...?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 08 Feb 2019 10:29

Khalsa wrote:MiG-29 UPG - Any mods or subsequent upgrades. Send to Mother Rossiya for continual upgrades till end of life.
Pick up Malaysian Mig-29s to make up for attrition and/or create War Reserves.

Not going to happen for the same reason that the 21 MiG-29s that Russia offered to India recently was turned down. The IAF has had enough with Russian maal.

Khalsa wrote:Mirage - 2000 - Back to France for upgrades. Bargain hard for no penalty for moving it back to France by buying any other worthy air frames from France or UAE. Create a proper 3 squadron force. None of this 2.5 etc bs.

Not going to happen either. Unless the Court of Inquiry (on the recent Mirage 2000 crash) comes out with a clear cut evidence that HAL screwed up, all remaining Mirage 2000s will be upgraded at HAL onlee. And even if a COI does state that HAL is the sole one to be blamed, still HAL only will upgrade the remaining Mirage 2000s. The Govt will be committing Hara-Kiri if they send the remaining Mirage 2000s to France to be upgraded. Apart from the two air frames (of the French Air Force) that were recently inspected, no additional Mirage 2000s will be coming. Each upgrade kit is costing the GoI nearly $45 million I believe.

Khalsa wrote:Jaguars - Bite the goddamn bullet and go with Honey Well or whoever the single vendor is. Do not give to HAL. Move all upgrade work to offshore. Do not invest Human capital or time into supporting the upgrade aircraft whose lineage is about to end.

MoD Babu will get asthma attack if he/she is asked to approve such a cost escalation. Then Pappu will claim that increased cost being spent on the Jaguar upgrade is actually being funnelled into Anil Ambani's coffers. #JaguarScam! #ChowkidarChorHai!

Where are you going to move the Jaguar upgrade to? RaGa will have a field day with that.

Khalsa wrote:Su-30MKI - get the attrition replacements. Sneak in orders more than 8 (maybe 16) and create yourself some War Wastage Reserves.

The IAF does not appear to be interested in additional Rambhas, beyond the 8 that have crashed since 2009.

Khalsa wrote:Rafale - Yeah political suicide for any gov. Enough is enough. Order another 4 now as reserves and be done with it.

Possible, but Modi Govt has to win in 2019 and CAG report has to give clean chit. Neither are guaranteed. As a side note, the CAG report on the Rafale may be tabled in Parliament soon.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 08 Feb 2019 10:31

Indranil wrote:Philip Sir, Rafales cost is 1.6 times that of a Mig-29. The Mikoyan chief himself said that. I think this the fourth or fifth time that I am saying this.

The flyaway cost of Rafale is about 100 million and that of a Mig-35 60 Million. Give or take some. The avionics on Rafale is a couple of generations ahead.

Why do I know that you will be repeating the same thing to Philip in a few weeks time? :)

Let it go Saar. As you are aware of the saying, you can bring a horse to the water...but you cannot make it drink.

I have given up with Philip Saar! I myself have told him the same thing, numerous times. I cannot do it anymore.


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