Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19879
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 20 Jun 2019 05:33

A titbit in the April F mag issue.
3 proposals awaiting clearance this fiscal year.

18 more MKIs from HAL. Upto 50 MIG-29 UPGs from Ru.The start of the S-Sukhoi programme.
Last Nov. Ru had offered upto 34 upgraded 29s with Klimov RD-33MK engines and Phazotron's Zhuk-M2E radars.They were offered at $25M/175cr having never flown and 29 SMT std. Upgrading them to IAF std. will cost 285cr/$40M+ approx. A rather decent price.69 29s in service are being upgraded to UPG std. costing $900M only. 84 MKIs were to get a depp SS upgraded and under the IAF's " Eagle Eye" project, Alpha- Tocol's R-118 digital 5th-gen RWRs are to be fitted onto 148 MKIs stationed at various bases across India.

The NG-HAS, new-gen shelters for heavy and med. aircraft for locations from 100km to 200km from the border, 108 for MKIs, has recd. funding and will take 4 yrs. to complete.Currently our smaller aircraft only use the vaulted earth- topped structures available.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 52555
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 20 Jun 2019 05:34

Can you post screenshot of the text?

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19879
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 20 Jun 2019 09:42

Google forceindia.net " prasun sengupta it's shopping time".The full article is thete containing much more on air defence missiles, etc.

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2435
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby abhik » 20 Jun 2019 10:47

$40M doesn't sound great for old mig 29s, given IIRC russia pays something like $30M for new built Su35.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19879
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 21 Jun 2019 13:29

These are brand new 29 SMTs never used offered at just $25M a pop.Upgrading them to the latest IAF UPG std. will cost an additional $15M more.V.reasonable considering that the upgrade costs for just one M2K are costing $50M+! If the small number of Malaysian 29s are also acquired, the total no. of 29UPGs could reach approx. 120+, enough for 6 sqds., twice as many at the moment. A v.cost effective way to add much needed numbers as legacg 21 and 27s depart.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17947
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 21 Jun 2019 13:59

Philip wrote:Google forceindia.net " prasun sengupta it's shopping time".The full article is thete containing much more on air defence missiles, etc.


Prasun Sengupta means the text is mostly his imagination and very little resemblance to reality. He keeps playing around with all sorts of claims on Super Sukhois and this and that.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17947
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 21 Jun 2019 14:02

Philip wrote:A titbit in the April F mag issue.
3 proposals awaiting clearance this fiscal year.

18 more MKIs from HAL. Upto 50 MIG-29 UPGs from Ru.The start of the S-Sukhoi programme.
Last Nov. Ru had offered upto 34 upgraded 29s with Klimov RD-33MK engines and Phazotron's Zhuk-M2E radars.They were offered at $25M/175cr having never flown and 29 SMT std. Upgrading them to IAF std. will cost 285cr/$40M+ approx. A rather decent price.69 29s in service are being upgraded to UPG std. costing $900M only. 84 MKIs were to get a depp SS upgraded and under the IAF's " Eagle Eye" project, Alpha- Tocol's R-118 digital 5th-gen RWRs are to be fitted onto 148 MKIs stationed at various bases across India.

The NG-HAS, new-gen shelters for heavy and med. aircraft for locations from 100km to 200km from the border, 108 for MKIs, has recd. funding and will take 4 yrs. to complete.Currently our smaller aircraft only use the vaulted earth- topped structures available.


Eagle Eye is just the 6 channel RWR program for the current R-118
The Digital RWR - DR-118 was in user trials, in 2018
Its not an Alpha Tocol program (they are the installers not developers) but a DRDO one

Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2011
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Vivek K » 21 Jun 2019 20:32

Do the 29s still have the smoke issue? The critical factor is - can 29s from this route be brought into service quicker than perhaps additional LCAs? What level of after sales for spares etc and at what cost would be available? What would be the projected availability of these aircraft? It seems that the Navy's 29ks (for different reasons) suffer from an abysmally low uptime and the Sukhois also had similar issues which needed additional investment in spares.

Ultimately - no country in history has become a power without its own production of weapon systems. This recent splurge of funds is along familiar lines of politicos wanting to fill their coffers and throw the country to the mercy of unscrupulous foreign vendors. Today India does not need to buy complete systems. There is tech available locally. Can Indians believe in their weapons like ISRO believes in its rockets?

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7404
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Indranil » 21 Jun 2019 23:39

I am a little disappointed in you guys. Some simple truths that can be figured out using Google (just beyond the Wiki pages):

1. Brand new Mig-29 SMTs don't come for $25M a pop. (Just look at recently concluded deals)
2. Brand new Su35s don't come for $30M a pop (even for mother Russia). (Just look at recently concluded international deals. Substract 25-30%)
3. New Mig-29k engines are pretty close to any western engine in terms of smoke. They smoke a little in corner cases. Every engine does.

Barath
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 39
Joined: 11 Feb 2019 19:06

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Barath » 22 Jun 2019 01:13

I'm unclear as to service/airframe life of the mig 29 under offer.

Early mig 29 had quite a short design life (4000 hours in this example, after upgrade, even earlier ones and engines may have been less), but it was increased later.

The mig 35 I think has 6000 hours design, similar to early f-18s though less than other US planes.

40 million sounds cheap, unless you are getting half the airframe life, lower capabilities etc.

So would anyone know the situation under the offer ?

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19879
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 22 Jun 2019 03:23

The offer of 29s were in the mainstream media not too long ago, the only difference was the number mentioned, 21 I think.Cost the same.These were MIGs built but never used and mothballed.The Sovs/ Ru have a habit of building large numbers and mothballing many probably for war reserves.When 2 IL-38s collided some years ago, replacements from mothballed stocks were obtained. Egypt bought MIG-29s for just around $30M not too long ago.These 29s having been built earlier would be cheaper.$15M a pop for upgrading to the new UPG std. also appears OK as 64/67/69 29s , depending upon the report, are/were upgraded for just $900M which works out to around $13M+ each.Another report around a year ago had a small batch of 29s for the RuAF being built costing only $29M each.New smokeless engines are on the 29Ks and all upgraded 29s the engines reportedly being built at home.

Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2011
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Vivek K » 22 Jun 2019 05:10

It is better to buy LCAs than Mig29s with all their problems with serviceability. I know we have some that adore everything phoren over domestic but it is time for India to play hardball and act it’s size. Buying phoren junk and hiding its flaws while delaying procurement of locally available weapons kicks economic security backwards.

Spend millions in India on India! Don't throw it away on expensive phoren junk!!
Last edited by Vivek K on 22 Jun 2019 11:01, edited 2 times in total.

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2294
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cybaru » 22 Jun 2019 05:57

^^ Amen Brother!!

Barath
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 39
Joined: 11 Feb 2019 19:06

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Barath » 22 Jun 2019 11:55

The other fear is that ..

Algeria rejected 34 Mig 29 SMT in 2007 and returned them to Russia .Some because of manufacturing quality, other because their supposed new parts actually dated back to the 1990s.

https://www.upi.com/Defense-News/2009/0 ... 232035135/

So one fear was that these would be the planes passed on to India., especially when you read of planes built in 2007 and not flown

I figure, the chances may be less, and there was an inspection team and re-upgrades etc, but I have an aversion to these specific planes being passed on..

Is it possible to definitively rule these out ?

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2350
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nam » 22 Jun 2019 12:33

If it happens, Just like Algeria, we give it back!

Vips
BRFite
Posts: 1703
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Vips » 22 Jun 2019 21:31

Trust the Russians, they will surely try to pass off the Algerian rejects to India and who knows due to the desperate situation IAF is in and with more operaitonal squadrons coming up for retirement it may just be accepted for numbers (H&D) purpose.Indian Babudom is capable of doing just about anything. The Russians would be fools not to take advantage of this situation.

Rishi_Tri
BRFite
Posts: 337
Joined: 13 Feb 2017 14:49

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rishi_Tri » 22 Jun 2019 21:45

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/t ... 2019-06-22

Trouble mounts for Robert Vadra as CBI registers case in Pilatus aircraft deal

The case has been registered against unknown officials of the Indian Air Force (IAF), the Ministry of Defence, Vadra's close associate Sanjay Bhandari and Swiss-based Pilatus Aircraft Ltd. on the charges of irregularities and corruption.


Munish Chandra Pandey
Mumbai
June 22, 2019UPDATED: June 22, 2019 13:21 IST

Fresh trouble is brewing for Robert Vadra as the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) has registered an FIR in connection with the Pilatus aircraft deal which took place during the UPA regime.

The case has been registered against unknown officials of the Indian Air Force (IAF), the Ministry of Defence, Vadra's close associate Sanjay Bhandari and Swiss-based Pilatus Aircraft Ltd. on the charges of irregularities and corruption.

Vadra has not been named in the FIR but the Enforcement Directorate (ED) has questioned him in the past in connection with the Pilatus deal while investigating the London properties case.

It has been alleged that kickbacks worth around Rs 339 crore was paid to Bhandari's company in the procurement of 75 basic trainer aircraft in 2008-2009. The investigative agencies maintained that the kickbacks were used to buy benami properties for Vadra in London.

The CBI also conducted raids at several premises related to Bhandari and seized incriminating documents and articles.

The email correspondence between Sanjay Bhandari, Summit Chadha (London-based relative of Sanjay), Manoj Arora and Robert Vadra showed that he (Vadra) had a keen interest in this property and was interested in knowing all about the renovation work that was being carried out.

The ED had informed the court about properties whose beneficial owner was Robert Vadra, this included two houses in London worth 5 million pounds, 4 million pounds and six flats.

Pilatus deal and connection with Robert Vadra:

The Pilatus deal was for basic trainer aircraft for the IAF. The deal involved the purchase of 75 Pilatus PC-7 basic trainer aircraft. The deal was worth Rs 2,896 crore. In 2008, Bhandari set up Offset Solutions. In 2010, Offset signed a deal with Pilatus.

Documents with the investigative agencies showed that in total 7,50,000 Swiss francs were paid by Pilatus to Bhandari for consultancy. This period also coincided with the time when Bhandari was purchasing real estate in London.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3507
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 22 Jun 2019 23:06

Indranil wrote:I am a little disappointed in you guys. Some simple truths that can be figured out using Google (just beyond the Wiki pages):

1. Brand new Mig-29 SMTs don't come for $25M a pop. (Just look at recently concluded deals)
2. Brand new Su35s don't come for $30M a pop (even for mother Russia). (Just look at recently concluded international deals. Substract 25-30%)
3. New Mig-29k engines are pretty close to any western engine in terms of smoke. They smoke a little in corner cases. Every engine does.

This is confusing.... There is no such thing as a brand new mig29 smt. MiG has not produced any bird to that standard iirc. The SMT is purely an upgrade program and the IAF upgrade is a custom variant of this standard.

Having said this, The closest we will get to "brand new" MiG 29 SMTs is what the Russians are offering via mothballed airframes that have never seen any flight hours.

The cost of $40 million per bird sounds about right for flyaway units considering that India paid about $1.2 billion for 29 units in 2010, and these were more advanced naval versions. Even the M version, which similarly has a more advanced airframe cost the Egyptians, less than 50 million per unit in 2015.

I don't see the new offer of existing, less advanced airframes being ridiculously expensive and the iaf would be smart to get these considering the extensive experience and infrastructure it has with this type. I'm just surprised that it took them so long..

fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2925
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby fanne » 22 Jun 2019 23:43

50 lcas on top of 123 that we ordered, by any calculation is 8-10 years away. Even with 123 lcas we are woefully short on minimum required. When the balloon goes up (and all t went almost just 4 months ago), tsp or chicoms will not get be us a break on the fact that we have additional 50 lca ordered 10 years down the line. 40 million for a mig29 like fighter is a good price. With that we will have 170 or so mig 29. I think we can retire at least 50 mig 21/27 with these 50 mig 29s. While lca keeps on rolling in. After we are at 42 sq (which will take additional 10 years) extra lca will start replacing leftover mig 21

mody
BRFite
Posts: 505
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Mumbai, India

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby mody » 24 Jun 2019 16:19

With the Pilatus deal under review, I guess no new orders for the same will be forthcoming. Clears the way for upto 106 HTT-40. Hopefully the IOC can be achieved by the end of 2019 or by end of FY 19-20. Would be a big boost for Make in India and for HAL. PM had personally interacted with the HTT-40 team and was happy to see a young team taking up the project.
If the IJT also clears the spin trials by this year end, then both can enter production from April 2020.

Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2011
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Vivek K » 24 Jun 2019 19:32

fanne wrote:50 lcas on top of 123 that we ordered, by any calculation is 8-10 years away. Even with 123 lcas we are woefully short on minimum required. When the balloon goes up (and all t went almost just 4 months ago), tsp or chicoms will not get be us a break on the fact that we have additional 50 lca ordered 10 years down the line. 40 million for a mig29 like fighter is a good price. With that we will have 170 or so mig 29. I think we can retire at least 50 mig 21/27 with these 50 mig 29s. While lca keeps on rolling in. After we are at 42 sq (which will take additional 10 years) extra lca will start replacing leftover mig 21

So what is the projected delivery schedule of these MiG 29s and what is the current serviceability of these in IAF service?

MeshaVishwas
BRFite
Posts: 257
Joined: 16 Feb 2019 17:20

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby MeshaVishwas » 24 Jun 2019 20:42


The attack in Kel Sector as some of us remember, is best described by the image of Maj Gen Qureshi (the original snake oil peddler)

Image

From Vayu:
http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/other-loonda-kargil-ii.html

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2294
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cybaru » 24 Jun 2019 22:35

Vivek K wrote:
fanne wrote:50 lcas on top of 123 that we ordered, by any calculation is 8-10 years away. Even with 123 lcas we are woefully short on minimum required. When the balloon goes up (and all t went almost just 4 months ago), tsp or chicoms will not get be us a break on the fact that we have additional 50 lca ordered 10 years down the line. 40 million for a mig29 like fighter is a good price. With that we will have 170 or so mig 29. I think we can retire at least 50 mig 21/27 with these 50 mig 29s. While lca keeps on rolling in. After we are at 42 sq (which will take additional 10 years) extra lca will start replacing leftover mig 21

So what is the projected delivery schedule of these MiG 29s and what is the current serviceability of these in IAF service?


One thing stands true for the mig29 acquisition if followed through quickly, 30-40 of these birds will allow 2-3 squadrons of mig21 to be retired quickly. The availability will be no worse than mig29 and be far more safer for our forces. By and large, IAF is working towards higher uptimes and that might be difficult of mig21 kind of phased out platforms.

18-36 more mki, 20 more lca mk1, 13 m29 from Malaysia, 12 mirage 2k from Qatar and 30 m2k9 from UAE would do the same and can easily scrap the mrca process. None of these are ideal but if you want to add another 70-80 birds cheaply in the next three years, this might be one way forward.

Ideally I want to see more LCA in our units, but there are other forces at work.

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2435
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby abhik » 25 Jun 2019 10:53

Let the government first sign the Mk1A deal, then we can have a separate MRCA flying junk competition.

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2704
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby tsarkar » 25 Jun 2019 11:18

Indranil & JayS - would your ADA/HAL sources know the reason for delay of Mk1A contract?

Someone could also ask Ajai Shukla as he gets a lot of inside information from HAL.

Also, has the two seater got FOC certification that was expected around this time.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19879
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 25 Jun 2019 12:48

The tragedy with the Pilatus deal is that the bird is generally ackbowledged yo bd yhd best BT around.It's just like Bofors.Great gun, greater crooked dealers!
If malfeasancd is proved, the OEM should be slapped with penalties in the contract for bribing our side.
The HTT bird must prove itself in complete trials fast and be user tesyed too before induction.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66602
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 25 Jun 2019 13:06

by always hankering for iphoneXR we will never figure out how to make redmi and oneplus.

we got the best we could afford - hawk, pilatus, jaguars, m2k, bofors, israeli munitions & LDP, SH60R, P8, C130, C17, Sinook, Apache, SIIG rifles, beretta carbines, glock pistols, Shipon rockets, jockey undies, mark n spencer sports bras ....

but we must cash in on the knowledge gained and copy/clone/design gear that is 75% as good to start with and run with that @ web scale.

USSR started its cold war run by copying various western types like the B29
chinese story is known to all.
with rare exceptions all of that mountains of gear like 300 SSNs were inferior to western designs. but they build it and became 'great powers' and ate all the bread and wine at the high table.

hence both the HAL IJT and HTT must be made to succeed and produced , used in volume only in field use does another level of knowledge emerge and gets fed back to design teams. if our kids dont get to make planes, radars, missiles, subs, sonars , light tnukes , OLEDs , EW and instead parents break the bank in sending them abroad to study and join the long queue of supplicants in the green card / visa queue this country is headed to hell.

schinnas
BRFite
Posts: 1336
Joined: 11 Jun 2009 09:44

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby schinnas » 25 Jun 2019 14:08

Well stated, Singha.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2350
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nam » 25 Jun 2019 14:18

I am guessing , MK1A must be stuck in the chicken and egg problem. HAL has given a quote for a jet, which is currently on paper and IAF is not ready to allocate money for a theoretical jet. And HAL does not want to spend money to create the prototype without IAF signing the contract money.

As usual MoD is watching from the sideline. Instead of allocating cash to HAL to create a prototype and initial prod run, they are letting IAF and HAL fight it out.

LakshmanPST
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 47
Joined: 05 Apr 2019 18:23

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby LakshmanPST » 25 Jun 2019 16:57

https://zeenews.india.com/india/iaf-upg ... 13914.html
He (Air Marshal Nambiar) further said that the Indian Air Force was in the process of making a 5th Generation Light Combat Aircraft and the prototype of the same would be ready in 10 years.


Is he talking about AMCA...??? Or is it an entirely new fighter...??? Or are they just incorporating some 5th Gen Technologies in Tejas Mk1...???

Yagnasri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9467
Joined: 29 May 2007 18:03

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Yagnasri » 25 Jun 2019 17:06

As a mango I think the solution to the problems numbers looks not that difficult to solve. We need large numbers of units in a very fast timelines. Just increase the production capability we have at percent. All we need to plan things properly and order things like GE engines radars etc in a planned manner and immediately invest in new HAL production lines. If numbers are the problem as everyone is saying then we will get numbers in that way. Run the production line till we have Mk2 and let the production changed to Mk2. I am sure we also learn many things of making a truly advanced 4 Gen Fighter and those lessons will be very valuable to us in future.

I think other than range LCA MK1A may be as good as M2K at least earlier versions of M2K. Even if all we are getting is Mk1A units they will give significantly increased capability to IAF. After all we have mostly Mig21s now which will be replaced with LCAs. We do not have money to buy fancy gora maal in large numbers we need. Anything pakis have can be delt effectively with LCAs in near or foreseeable future.So there should not be any big problem to have large number of MK1As.

I know that this is a mango rant but why can not we do that?

LakshmanPST
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 47
Joined: 05 Apr 2019 18:23

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby LakshmanPST » 25 Jun 2019 18:10

Yagnasri wrote:As a mango I think the solution to the problems numbers looks not that difficult to solve. We need large numbers of units in a very fast timelines. Just increase the production capability we have at percent. All we need to plan things properly and order things like GE engines radars etc in a planned manner and immediately invest in new HAL production lines. If numbers are the problem as everyone is saying then we will get numbers in that way. Run the production line till we have Mk2 and let the production changed to Mk2. I am sure we also learn many things of making a truly advanced 4 Gen Fighter and those lessons will be very valuable to us in future.

I think other than range LCA MK1A may be as good as M2K at least earlier versions of M2K. Even if all we are getting is Mk1A units they will give significantly increased capability to IAF. After all we have mostly Mig21s now which will be replaced with LCAs. We do not have money to buy fancy gora maal in large numbers we need. Anything pakis have can be delt effectively with LCAs in near or foreseeable future.So there should not be any big problem to have large number of MK1As.

I know that this is a mango rant but why can not we do that?


My Mango reply...
-
The sanctioned strength of 42 squadrons is for a 2 front war with both Pakis & Cheenis...
Against Pakis, our current strength is enough... Except for the BVR missiles, IAF is superior to PAF in every aspect... IAF is not really concerned about Pak...
IAF is looking at China...

IAF's problems are not just about numbers...

From what I understand, the main drawback of Tejas Mk1 is its range and weapons carrying capacity... So, it may be used as a point interceptor, but can not be extensively used for Attack or Strike missions... (The range is still enough to reach targets within PoK or Pakjab though...)
My guess is, the 6 squadrons of Mk1 & 1A that IAF will induct will be primarily used as point interceptors only...

But IAF requirement is not just to replace point interceptors... We need a jet that can be used for both Air-to-Air and Air-to-Ground missions...

If at all a war starts with Cheenis, our Attack jets need to be able to reach targets in the vast area of Tibet & Turkistan... This is why Tejas Mk1 is not enough... We need better range and more load carrying capability...
Mk1s can reach only near border areas and they'll be needing more sorties...

Tejas Mk2 MWF is the key... Though it is taking time, it will be worth the wait... Still I hope it will get FOC by 2025 as scheduled...

Yagnasri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9467
Joined: 29 May 2007 18:03

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Yagnasri » 25 Jun 2019 18:28

LakshmanPST wrote:IAF's problems are not just about numbers...

From what I understand, the main drawback of Tejas Mk1 is its range and weapons carrying capacity... So, it may be used as a point interceptor, but can not be extensively used for Attack or Strike missions... (The range is still enough to reach targets within PoK or Pakjab though...)
My guess is, the 6 squadrons of Mk1 & 1A that IAF will induct will be primarily used as point interceptors only...

But IAF requirement is not just to replace point interceptors... We need a jet that can be used for both Air-to-Air and Air-to-Ground missions...

If at all a war starts with Cheenis, our Attack jets need to be able to reach targets in the vast area of Tibet & Turkistan... This is why Tejas Mk1 is not enough... We need better range and more load carrying capability...
Mk1s can reach only near border areas and they'll be needing more sorties...

Tejas Mk2 MWF is the key... Though it is taking time, it will be worth the wait... Still I hope it will get FOC by 2025 as scheduled...


Correct me if I am wrong.

If we are talking about a two front war, then LCA will release most of the more capable and long legged :mrgreen: aircraft to the northern front by largely taking care of the needs in the west. From what I understand LCA is a multi role fighter. So I think it can do other jobs also. Most of the Paki land is very near to India and it is not that we are going to have a great need to bomb target near Peshavar or Beluchisthan. MK1A has mid air refueling capability. So range shall not be a problem as far as pakis are concerned.

In respect of China, are we really looking at deep airstrikes into mainland China with MRCAs which we want to buy? I am not sure of that. Dont we have Su30s for that? As I said LCA can largely take care of West and rest can take care of North in case of a two front war and if the war is only in the north also LCA should be useful to missions where long range is not a requirement.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4118
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 25 Jun 2019 18:37

LakshmanPST wrote:...
Tejas Mk2 MWF is the key... Though it is taking time, it will be worth the wait... Still I hope it will get FOC by 2025 as scheduled...

Mk2 MWF FOC by 2025? Dream on ...

By being unrealistic India will forever be importing.

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2435
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby abhik » 25 Jun 2019 19:31

Bird in hand is worth two pies in the sky, mango view onlee.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 52555
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 25 Jun 2019 19:53

From Mil Safety Thread...
ramana wrote:AVM Subramaniam writes

The IAF flies 38 different types of aircraft and has the most varied fleet among modern air forces.



First rationalize the fleet.
Do they still need one-to one replacement of the 38 types?
If so India will go bankrupt.
Looks like total zoo or Chinese Menu.
Complicates Logistics and pilot training.
Can we identify the planes and the type?
E.g. Fighters/Combat Planes:
Mig-21, Mig 27, Mig 29, Jaguar, M2K, Su-30MKI, LCA

Etc. etc....

Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2011
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Vivek K » 25 Jun 2019 19:57

LakshmanPST wrote:
Yagnasri wrote:As a mango I think the solution to the problems numbers looks not that difficult to solve. We need large numbers of units in a very fast timelines. Just increase the production capability we have at percent. ....

I think other than range LCA MK1A may be as good as M2K at least earlier versions of M2K. ....... After all we have mostly Mig21s now which will be replaced with LCAs. We do not have money to buy fancy gora maal in large numbers we need. Anything pakis have can be delt effectively with LCAs ...
?


...
......
IAF is looking at China...

IAF's problems are not just about numbers...

From what I understand, the main drawback of Tejas Mk1 is its range and weapons carrying capacity... So, it may be used as a point interceptor, but can not be extensively used for Attack or Strike missions... ........

Have you been following the LCA at all? Compare the LCA to Mig-27 or Jaguar for strike capabilities and to Mirage 2000 for its interception, BVR attack and tell us where it is lacking in multi role capabilities? LCA is more than a point defense aircraft.

.....If at all a war starts with Cheenis, our Attack jets need to be able to reach targets in the vast area of Tibet & Turkistan... This is why Tejas Mk1 is not enough... ..Mk1s can reach only near border areas and they'll be needing more sorties...


So the air force is only looking for attack aircraft? Homeland defense is not necessary? Building up numbers of LCA plus refuellers, will allow LCA MK1s to take on invading aircraft and allowing the Sukhois to go deep into enemy territory. AND, with demonstrated IFR capability, LCA can also take up some of the workload and give the IAF other options.

Tejas Mk2 MWF is the key... Though it is taking time, it will be worth the wait... Still I hope it will get FOC by 2025 as scheduled...

That is a loser's attitude. LCA is ready for battle today as the MK1. Need to get 10-15 squadrons in operation - think like China! Reverse engineer the GE engine and make thousands of copies of it. If IAF wastes the opportunity that MK1 presents then .......

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 52555
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 25 Jun 2019 20:01

Singha wrote:by always hankering for iphoneXR we will never figure out how to make redmi and oneplus.

we got the best we could afford - hawk, pilatus, jaguars, m2k, bofors, israeli munitions & LDP, SH60R, P8, C130, C17, Sinook, Apache, SIIG rifles, beretta carbines, glock pistols, Shipon rockets, jockey undies, mark n spencer sports bras ....

but we must cash in on the knowledge gained and copy/clone/design gear that is 75% as good to start with and run with that @ web scale.

USSR started its cold war run by copying various western types like the B29
chinese story is known to all.
with rare exceptions all of that mountains of gear like 300 SSNs were inferior to western designs. but they build it and became 'great powers' and ate all the bread and wine at the high table.

hence both the HAL IJT and HTT must be made to succeed and produced , used in volume only in field use does another level of knowledge emerge and gets fed back to design teams. if our kids dont get to make planes, radars, missiles, subs, sonars , light tnukes , OLEDs , EW and instead parents break the bank in sending them abroad to study and join the long queue of supplicants in the green card / visa queue this country is headed to hell.


How about IAF decides to make a reliable, modern bomb fuze that works in Nose or Tail configuration as own project run by the Vice Chief?

Its terrible to learn from AM Nambiar that in Kargil there were three issues for the LGBs: Litening Integration wit M2K, Paveway kit integration with 1000 MC bombs for which they were procured and bomb fuzes.
All three needed Israeli help.

I did a search for type of fuze used in LGBs. It has to be a tail fuze as the nose is occupied by the sensor kit.
OFB page says they make both and nose fuzes.
So what was the issue?

ARDE made two types of Fuzes for the HLSD as part of the development. Now there is no reference at all to that project.
Looks like it led to accidents.
instead of persisting in further development they shelved it.
You can't innovate what you don't make.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 52555
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 25 Jun 2019 20:11

nam wrote:I am guessing , MK1A must be stuck in the chicken and egg problem. HAL has given a quote for a jet, which is currently on paper and IAF is not ready to allocate money for a theoretical jet. And HAL does not want to spend money to create the prototype without IAF signing the contract money.

As usual MoD is watching from the sideline. Instead of allocating cash to HAL to create a prototype and initial prod run, they are letting IAF and HAL fight it out.



There are two things being mixed up here.

HAL gave a quote on the 83 Mk1A and every one screamed at the price.
MoD had a team to go over the costs and came back and said they were reasonable.
Meantime elections came and no further movement on it.
Hopefully they will be ordered. Lots of time has been lost.
Meantime the HAL 2nd line is coming up.
Its the supply chain that wait for Godot.

The prototype you are talking about is Mk1A with all the 'improvements' that make it a "A".
On one hand we want HAL to work as a commercial company.
And on the other hand we want it to be captive workshop for IAF.
Which company in the world will make a prototype with own funds with out assurance that it will be procured!!!
And its not like MoD has slush fund for such contingency measures to fund development of prototype.
And whats to prevent a future chief from rejecting it?
ACM Raha said the truth that they don't have a Plan B.

I think a new way of thinking is needed where the funding is a MoD concern and not the service concern.

I hope when the CDS is appointed (hopefully soon) such holistic planning will be put in place.
Under this each service budget they are extremely siloed.

RKumar
BRFite
Posts: 1053
Joined: 26 Jul 2009 12:29
Location: Evolution is invention, explosion is destruction.

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby RKumar » 25 Jun 2019 20:38

I hope, we still remember the Aircraft carrier, how some people evaluated it but still costs ballooned. And in 3-4 years by the time, we will take delivery of these refurbished plane, there will be issues with older parts. I hope we dont end up paying defense inflation of 10% yearly.

I will bet on a safer choice of LCAs than these used super Mig-29.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Prithwiraj, vnms and 62 guests