Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18513
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 27 Sep 2019 13:28

On what the IAF's view on the Su-30 MKI and Mirage 2000 is. Think Balakote on Feb 26th who were sent into the strike. Su-30s and Mirage 2000s.

Watch from 12:05, ACM Dhanoa on how the IAF plans to fight today, MiG-21 relevance etc:

"In the shadow of hi-tech fighters, we plan to use medium or a lo-tech fighter to do some good air to ground work, which these aircraft are quite capable of. That is how we plan to utilize the platform, it is not going to be leading the charge. To lead the charge, there are enough guys, the Su-30 is there, the Mirage 2000 upgrade is there, the Rafale will be there. But in the shadow of the favorable air situation created by those aircraft, there is space for the MiG-21 to operate."

Also mentions Su-30s huge range when mentioning Brahmos.

Drawdown will be arrested by LCA IOC, FOC, then 2x Rafale squadrons, 1x Su-30, then 83x LCA on order.

At 8:23, indigenization, uses the example of radars to point out IAFs commitment to indigenization (does he surf BR? ;)), we first inducted a 2D radar by the name of Indra, then when we stabilized with it, we made the Rohini, now we will make the (A)Rudhra, we've got the Low Level Tracking radars Aslesha and we're going to get long range surveillance radars (referring to HPR imho). So from the bottom, we've gone to the top. So similarly in aircraft, we have made the LCA Mk1, its in IOC configuration, 2nd squadron is going to come in FOC and then to make it electronically better and more maintainable we are going to make LCA Mk1A for which we are going to sign a contract for 83 aircraft, and that 1A will become more contemporary, and from there we will make the Mk2. In Mk2, we will subsequently replace the MiG-29, Jaguar, Mirage 2000 and these aircraft when they are going to get phased out. And finally we are going to make the AMCA. Its a 5th gen aircraft. Its going to have stealth characteristics, ultimately its also going to carry out supercruise and things like that..so we have started from a particular place and planning to reach..

then talks of indigenization in our repair & overhaul.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18513
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 27 Sep 2019 13:29

No AON has been given by GOI yet for MMRCA v2.0. I can bet we are going to see more Rafales & LCA Mk1As in that case.

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3828
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chola » 27 Sep 2019 13:34

Karan M wrote:No AON has been given by GOI yet for MMRCA v2.0. I can bet we are going to see more Rafales & LCA Mk1As in that case.


I would replace the Rafales with more MKIs to fill the gap until we go full MK1As and then MWFs. Every possible rupee should be put into MII imho.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18513
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 27 Sep 2019 13:43

Su30 upgrade and 12 more Su-30s basically is what IAF is gunning for.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18513
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 27 Sep 2019 13:45

ADU. How is ‘Make in India’ being helpful in filling the deficit IAF is facing?

CAS. The IAF has fully supported the ‘Make in India’ initiative and several important procurements and projects have materialised as a result of this synergy. The IAF has already inducted the LCA and procurement of 83 additional LCA Mk 1A is at an advanced stage. IAF is also providing support for the LCA Mk2 and AMCA programs. The ALH series has been in service for some time now and the armed version has recently been inducted. We have also inducted the AEW&C aircraft this year. The indigenous Akash SRSAM is operational and more numbers are planned to be added. DRDO is planning development of two AWACS (India) on the Airbus A330 platform. Some other important indigenous projects are the LCH, Avro replacement, Pechora digitisation, CIWS, MAFI Phase-II, M-7 R/T sets, Jaguar simulator, Infrared Search and Track (IRST), Chaffs and Flares etc. Another area where the IAF has benefitted from ‘Make in India’ has been Radars, be it the Indira, Rohini or Ashlesha LLLWR. Arudhra MPR and Ashwini LLTR have been developed and will be inducted in due course of time.


https://www.aviation-defence-universe.c ... ew-to-adu/

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18513
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 27 Sep 2019 13:53

CAS Dhanoa:

https://www.aeromag.in/articlesingle.php?article=13

The induction of our indigenous LCA Tejas, forming a new squadron for IAF, was the big news last year. As a most distinguished field Commander–a Commanding Officer of a frontline ground attack fighter squadron that created history up there in Kargil, a fighter pilot with flying experience across the entire spectrum of fighter aircraft in India, and a flying instructor par excellence–how would you describe the outstanding features of the Tejas aircraft? How is the progress of the project?

LCA is a modern and state-of-the-art combat aircraft. LCA along with its variants, once fully operationalized, will enhance IAF capabilities in Light Combat Aircraft category. IAF has been actively supporting the LCA development plan. Induction of LCA is critical in arresting the drawdown of IAF’s fighter fleet. Further, development of LCA will also usher Indian Aerospace industries to a highly complex and technology intensive field of combat aircraft.

manjgu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2105
Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby manjgu » 27 Sep 2019 13:54

Karan M/ Manish ...u missed my point totally. Everything in life including planes come with its sets of plus/minus. the key is to understand the plus/minus of each platform. What a needle can do a sword cant and what a sword can a needle cant. Training and exposure to different platforms enable u to make that understanding. I have nothing for/against SU or F16 or M2K. All have their plus/minus and training helps u to exploit a platform to its max.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18513
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 27 Sep 2019 14:55

I am not sure your post had a point as it didnt make it clearly. It mentioned a reference by a debunked report about post stall issues in close in guns combat to a discussion which was about something else entirely. It wasnt relevant, basically.

manjgu wrote:Karan M/ Manish ...u missed my point totally. Everything in life including planes come with its sets of plus/minus. the key is to understand the plus/minus of each platform. What a needle can do a sword cant and what a sword can a needle cant. Training and exposure to different platforms enable u to make that understanding. I have nothing for/against SU or F16 or M2K. All have their plus/minus and training helps u to exploit a platform to its max.

Manish_P
BRFite
Posts: 1963
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 27 Sep 2019 15:14

I have noticed that the hush-kit interviews are not very structured, despite appearing to be, and the pilots are very careful not to give specific details (especially numbers).

I captured the interview responses of the last 6-8 pilots (in excel :oops: ) hoping to kind of do a comparison study and found that only 6-8 common questions are asked of each pilot and the responses are usually adjectives and not numbers as such.

Even the two Mirage 2000 pilot interviews (Group Captain MJA Vinod and UK aviator Ian Black) had a different structure.

Ian Black stated that the Mirage 2000 was his favorite but also said

"I’d say the F-16 has the edge – whilst the M2000 evolved from the RDM – RDi to RDY versions they were pretty small upgrades in terms of airframe performance – The latest Block F16s are a world apart from the original F-16As. Part of the Mirage 2000’s problem was the arrival of Rafale, which pretty much stopped any further development.”


Almost each pilot takes care to mention that his reponse is about the type(variant) he has flown and that probably subsequent versions would be better. Another thing commonly mentioned by all of them is how extremely valuable the DACT exercises are.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18513
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 27 Sep 2019 15:32

Ian Black is kinda right, kinda wrong. Thing is the F16 has received three things the Mirage 2000 hasnt. Newer motors, new AESA radar, significant strengthening and EFT expansion plus new munitions making it truly multirole. After ARMAT, France exited the ARM game, and the F16 has AGM-88, plus HTS and a towed decoy. These significant improvements though really coalesce around the Block 60 onwards at which point one can claim the Mirage is getting significantly behind in the arms race though a towed decoy has been available in the F16 for a while now, and has proven invaluable in the SEAD role.

Having said that, Rafale tech has flowed into the Mirage. Its MDPU and cockpit is heavily influenced by the Rafale in its latest variant. It has an internal EW system, which has constantly been upgraded, the ICMS Mk4. And the FADEC on the M53 was upgraded to allow a better response profile. The RDY3 radar offers almost the same performance as the original RDY2. Plus it has the MicaIR, which is completely passive, and offers an IIR BVR level stick far ahead of the AIM-9X. The RDY/RDY2 were both considered more powerful than the baseline AN/APG-68 v(9).

In short, it's quite equivalent and likely superior to the F16 Block 50 which the PAF has. Also, we have to consider the fact the French/Indians added capabilities the PAF F16 Block 50 doesnt have. From Hammer (superior to the Maverick) by France, to SPICE/Popeye by India (equivalent to similar work by Israel). When the Indian munitions start flowing in, NGARM/ Astra/ SAAW/Glide bombs, the desi Mirage 2000s wont have any immediate peers worldwide.

Manish_P
BRFite
Posts: 1963
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 27 Sep 2019 15:51

Karan sir, Very very interesting that you say - "Having said that, Rafale tech has flowed into the Mirage."

Because one of the very things that Ian Black had mentioned in his interview (which had me flummoxed at the time) was that it was 'Future Proofed' :)

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18513
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 27 Sep 2019 16:19

No sir for me please.

In Ian Black's interview note he is all praise for the FBW, the aerodynamics (though he notes a delta has its unique quirks) and the performance. But he is disappointed by the situational awareness, for instance in the F-15,which would mean the radar and cockpit both.

He says this about the cockpit.

“Slightly disappointing at first – I’d come from the Tornado F3 which was painted grey – then blacked out for NVG work – and was very spacious and well laid out. The Mirage 2000 is more like a fighter from the 70s with a lot of analogue displays. The rear view was not as good as an F-16 and it was pretty cramped. On the plus side it was not overly complex.”


Note the capabilities added for the upgraded Mirage:
https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/defau ... vernis.pdf

And this is the upgraded cockpit for the Mirage 2000-V. It makes use of the MDPU, a unique Mission computing, Navigation, Map Generation, and Sensor fusion computer developed for the Rafale.
https://www.airforce-technology.com/wp- ... 2000_5.jpg

Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5155
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karthik S » 27 Sep 2019 16:35

Greek Mirage 2000 and Turkish F-16 used to be at each others' throats. IIRC, Mirage 2000 held up pretty good, and they were good at "slashing attacks". Although don't recall details (read about it more than decade back).

fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3080
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby fanne » 27 Sep 2019 17:36

Do we have the stated version of m2k as an upgrade?

Manish_Sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4218
Joined: 07 Sep 2009 16:17

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_Sharma » 27 Sep 2019 18:25

Karan M wrote:@Manish, no personal comments please. But to corroborate your point ....


Sorry Karan, will keep it in check in future...

Sumair
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 72
Joined: 02 Jun 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Sumair » 27 Sep 2019 18:38

Sonugn wrote:Lessons from Balakot: Air force to revamp radio system in all planes
Planes of the Indian Air Force (IAF) are all set to get a technical boost as the defence ministry has decided to revamp radio systems in all IAF planes. This was part of the recommendations made by the Air Force following its assessment of the Balakot airstrikes and why Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman's MiG-21 Bison went down during a dogfight a day after that.

It is sad that we need an adversary to show us our weakness. It reflects poorly on our Air force’s strategic and tactical planning.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7849
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 27 Sep 2019 19:52

nachiket wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Just happy to know that the IAF possesses the best of both worlds - Su-30MKI and Mirage 2000.

Exactly! But also sad thinking about what could have been if the IAF's original demand for 126 M2k's for MRCA had gone through.. :cry:

You took the words right out of my mouth! So true. Now we are left with 36 gold-plated Rafales.

Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5155
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karthik S » 27 Sep 2019 19:55

Rafale is a big upgrade over Mirage 2000. Sure its expensive, but so are Mirage 2000s, how much did we pay for just upgrading them? Why are many of us not so happy about acquiring Rafales?

Kashi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3578
Joined: 06 May 2011 13:53

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kashi » 27 Sep 2019 20:41

Karthik S wrote:Rafale is a big upgrade over Mirage 2000. Sure its expensive, but so are Mirage 2000s, how much did we pay for just upgrading them? Why are many of us not so happy about acquiring Rafales?

I guess because they are expensive and therefore difficult to afford in numbers that we need. Plus, if Mirage mid-life upgrades were prohibitive, Rafale upgrades will be absolutely eye-watering.

It's also felt that money spent on Rafales, specifically on India-specific enhancements could have funded our domestic R&D (Tejas, MWF and AMCA) for years to come.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7849
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 27 Sep 2019 21:01

@ Karthik S: Rafales are nice. I will not deny that.

But 126 Mirage 2000-5s (quantity wise) are a lot better than 36 Rafales. And also way cheaper than 126 Rafales. The IAF could have retired all the MiG-21 squadrons by now. But alas, then Defence Minister George Fernandes thought otherwise and here we are.

Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5155
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karthik S » 27 Sep 2019 21:02

Kashi wrote:
Karthik S wrote:Rafale is a big upgrade over Mirage 2000. Sure its expensive, but so are Mirage 2000s, how much did we pay for just upgrading them? Why are many of us not so happy about acquiring Rafales?



I guess because they are expensive and therefore difficult to afford in numbers that we need. Plus, if Mirage mid-life upgrades were prohibitive, Rafale upgrades will be absolutely eye-watering.

It's also felt that money spent on Rafales, specifically on India-specific enhancements could have funded our domestic R&D (Tejas, MWF and AMCA) for years to come.



That's true for whatever we import isn't it? Money paid to Israel for Phalcons and MF-STARs could have been invested in Indian R&D. Similary Arjun chasis can be used for self propelled howitzers. List can go on.

But point is, Rafale is in for MRCA, a requirement that dates back 2 decades, how many more years will IAF wait to induct modern desi jets that are in the league of Rafale? Next war will not wait till we can build up squadron with desi jets. Govt has shown interest in Tejas and LCH etc. It's not like we are shutting down our own programs.

Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5155
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karthik S » 27 Sep 2019 21:08

Rakesh wrote:@ Karthik S: Rafales are nice. I will not deny that.

But 126 Mirage 2000-5s (quantity wise) are a lot better than 36 Rafales. And also way cheaper than 126 Rafales. The IAF could have retired all the MiG-21 squadrons by now. But alas, then Defence Minister George Fernandes thought otherwise and here we are.


Need to perform Mirage 2000 price to defense budget/Indian GDP ratio and compare it to Rafale to 2019-20 defense budget/Indian GDP ratio to establish if things would have worked out cheaper had we gone it for 126 Mirages then. But either way, we missed the bus then. Personally, I am happy IAF is getting a more advanced bird, BTW, I believe we'll go in for additional 36 atleast.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7849
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 27 Sep 2019 21:25

Karthik: We are both saying the same thing :) We cannot change the past. Rafale is the reality NOW. And it only makes sense to capitalize on that purchase. So yes, definitely more Rafales.

But at times, one has to shake their head in dismay at the stupidity of our defence procurement. The brainy guys that are our politicians and babus in New Delhi make some monumentally stupid decisions i.e. cancelling the 126 Mirage 2000 purchase for a multi-vendor competition. Or turning down the Russian offer for four Krivak Class frigates for the price of three. The fear of Bofors has scared the living daylights of our decision makers in New Delhi.

And what is happening right now is even greater stupidity - competition for 114 Multi Role Combat Aircraft. When Tejas Mk1A and Mk2 are in development. When the infrastructure investment for 36 Rafales has been made.

vishvak
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5470
Joined: 12 Aug 2011 21:19

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby vishvak » 27 Sep 2019 21:53

Rakesh wrote:...cancelling the 126 Mirage 2000 purchase for a multi-vendor competition.

Wouldn't it be more of the same already in inventory? Just checking.
Last edited by vishvak on 27 Sep 2019 21:55, edited 1 time in total.

titash
BRFite
Posts: 356
Joined: 26 Aug 2011 18:44

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby titash » 27 Sep 2019 21:53

Rakesh wrote:Karthik: We are both saying the same thing :) We cannot change the past. Rafale is the reality NOW. And it only makes sense to capitalize on that purchase. So yes, definitely more Rafales.

But at times, one has to shake their head in dismay at the stupidity of our defence procurement. The brainy guys that are our politicians and babus in New Delhi make some monumentally stupid decisions i.e. cancelling the 126 Mirage 2000 purchase for a multi-vendor competition. Or turning down the Russian offer for four Krivak Class frigates for the price of three. The fear of Bofors has scared the living daylights of our decision makers in New Delhi.

And what is happening right now is even greater stupidity - competition for 114 Multi Role Combat Aircraft. When Tejas Mk1A and Mk2 are in development. When the infrastructure investment for 36 Rafales has been made.


Admiral-ji, you are doing the babooze a dis-service here.

The object of buying annually and piecemeal from the P5 is to spread the hafta payments. Can't pay too much at one time else folks get greedy the next year, or presidents change the next year, etc.

Regular hafta payments (above the Paki Purchasing mark) keep the P5 from selling to the one nation that hates us. It also keeps UN resolutions at bay thanks to veto. The need for such payments will go away as economy hits $10 trillion, the S5 SSBNs and 6 new SSNs hit the water by 2035, and once the MK2 + AMCA mature. At that point, the only baksheesh will be for engines. Nobody f**ks with the Chinese, no matter how many ham sandwiches they make the Uighurs eat. Moral of da story - become a hard power economically + MIC wise.

Shipbuilding - check
Nuclear Weapons - check
Supercomputers - check
Ballistic Missiles - check
Torpedoes - check
SONARS - check
Radars - check
Rocket Artillery - check
Tube Artillery - check
Armored Vehicles - check (restrained by politics, not by technology)

Nuclear SSBNs - WIP, but getting close
Tactical Missiles - WIP, but getting close

Guns - can be imported; no issues

Diesel SSKs - WIP
Nuclear SSKs - WIP
Hypersonic Missiles - WIP
IR/EO sensors - WIP

IoT & AI - WIP, and lots of desi in-house capability
Cybersecurity - WIP, and lots of desi in-house capability

Engines - hmmm

ashishvikas
BRFite
Posts: 434
Joined: 17 Oct 2016 14:18

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ashishvikas » 27 Sep 2019 23:42

For the zillion questions asked today on the DARIN-III Jaguar upgrade+ its radar:
1. It is NOT the Elta EL/M 2052 AESA
2. It is the Mechanically Steered Antenna EL/M 2032-J from Elta. (Smaller than LCA MMR antenna)
3. No re-engining with F125IN from Honeywell

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 04064?s=19

Retweeting.... to you after cross checking with 4 HAL officials today:

1. It is NOT the Elta EL/M 2052 AESA
2. It is the Mechanically Steered Antenna EL/M 2032-J from Elta. (Smaller than LCA MMR antenna)

Its the new version specially designed/configured for the DARIN-III

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 51040?s=19

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7161
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 28 Sep 2019 02:19

Karan M wrote:On what the IAF's view on the Su-30 MKI and Mirage 2000 is. Think Balakote on Feb 26th who were sent into the strike. Su-30s and Mirage 2000s.
...

"In the shadow of hi-tech fighters, we plan to use medium or a lo-tech fighter to do some good air to ground work, which these aircraft are quite capable of. That is how we plan to utilize the platform, it is not going to be leading the charge. To lead the charge, there are enough guys, the Su-30 is there, the Mirage 2000 upgrade is there, the Rafale will be there. But in the shadow of the favorable air situation created by those aircraft, there is space for the MiG-21 to operate."

I am surprised that he mentions the M2k and the Su-30MKI but not the upgraded Mig-29. With the extra fuel, Zhuk-ME radar with the R-77 integrated, new HMS and new engines it should at least theoretically be a capable beast. At least I hope so since we have a lot more of them available than the Mirages, and the Mirage upgrade is proceeding at a glacial pace compared to that of the Mig-29. Perhaps the lack of an internal SPJ or a SAP-518 like pod is why it is not considered for "leading the charge".

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2581
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nam » 28 Sep 2019 02:23

Doesn't Mig 29 have a DARE internal SPJ? That too AESA based, cutting edge jammer!

Anujan
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6939
Joined: 27 May 2007 03:55

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Anujan » 28 Sep 2019 02:42

vishvak wrote:
Rakesh wrote:...cancelling the 126 Mirage 2000 purchase for a multi-vendor competition.

Wouldn't it be more of the same already in inventory? Just checking.


You have to understand the prevailing conditions at that time. There was the coffin "scam", why India gave "safe passage" to Pakis in Kargil, expensive emergency import of Krasnopol etc for which George Fernandes was under tremendous pressure. So nobody wanted to make quick decisions about arms purchases and wanted it to go through chai biskoot and babus.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18513
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 28 Sep 2019 03:46

nachiket wrote:I am surprised that he mentions the M2k and the Su-30MKI but not the upgraded Mig-29. With the extra fuel, Zhuk-ME radar with the R-77 integrated, new HMS and new engines it should at least theoretically be a capable beast. At least I hope so since we have a lot more of them available than the Mirages, and the Mirage upgrade is proceeding at a glacial pace compared to that of the Mig-29. Perhaps the lack of an internal SPJ or a SAP-518 like pod is why it is not considered for "leading the charge".


I am guessing he just forgot.. its a free wheeling interview, we can't expect him to be 100% accurate in each term used etc. Either that, or he meant the fighters which are established as multi-role strikers, which would mean despite getting these abilities, MiG-29 will still primarily be used in the air-superiority role.

The MiG-29s are getting an internal SPJ. Its the Project D-29.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-X5bWCLxSw4w/ ... uite-2.jpg

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18513
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 28 Sep 2019 03:59

The Mirage 2000 upgrades will basically work in parallel with our Rafales.
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/07/14696.html

9. While the Ambala and Hasimara bases will be the IAF’s principal Rafale centres (17 Squadron ‘Golden Arrows’ is slated to be the inaugural Rafale unit), the Gwalior Mirage 2000 station will be fully integrated right from the start for operations and cooperative training. The collective training and synthetic learning architecture being installed at Ambala and Hasimara will be linked directly to a similar module in Gwalior, being set up for the IAF’s upgraded Mirage 2000-5 fleet (eight have been upgraded so far out of 51). This will allow pilots at the three bases to fly cooperative simulated missions using both aircraft types on a long list of existing and fresh combat scenarios. These will, of course, include area denial combat air patrol operations on the Chinese front and northern sectors, close air support and interdiction missions in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, precision strike missions along the Line of Control and cooperative reconnaissance missions/anti-surface missions on both of India’s seaboards. The experience of the Gwalior squadrons, coupled with the new tools coming with the Rafale will be a huge mutual boost to both bases, types and fleets.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4297
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 28 Sep 2019 04:11

Anyone has a picture of an upgraded IAF MiG-29 cockpit?

SMT upgrade cockpit vs old
Image

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7161
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 28 Sep 2019 04:38

Karan M wrote:I am guessing he just forgot.. its a free wheeling interview, we can't expect him to be 100% accurate in each term used etc. Either that, or he meant the fighters which are established as multi-role strikers, which would mean despite getting these abilities, MiG-29 will still primarily be used in the air-superiority role.

The MiG-29s are getting an internal SPJ. Its the Project D-29.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-X5bWCLxSw4w/ ... uite-2.jpg

I forgot about the D-29 but that that is still a work in progress IIRC. Not part of the UPG package.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18513
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 28 Sep 2019 08:33

It's part of the Upg package. The program was delayed in part because we didnt have airframes to test it on. But that's been resolved, and it's really done well in tests.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3795
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 28 Sep 2019 10:14

nachiket wrote:
Karan M wrote:On what the IAF's view on the Su-30 MKI and Mirage 2000 is. Think Balakote on Feb 26th who were sent into the strike. Su-30s and Mirage 2000s.
...

"In the shadow of hi-tech fighters, we plan to use medium or a lo-tech fighter to do some good air to ground work, which these aircraft are quite capable of. That is how we plan to utilize the platform, it is not going to be leading the charge. To lead the charge, there are enough guys, the Su-30 is there, the Mirage 2000 upgrade is there, the Rafale will be there. But in the shadow of the favorable air situation created by those aircraft, there is space for the MiG-21 to operate."

I am surprised that he mentions the M2k and the Su-30MKI but not the upgraded Mig-29. With the extra fuel, Zhuk-ME radar with the R-77 integrated, new HMS and new engines it should at least theoretically be a capable beast. At least I hope so since we have a lot more of them available than the Mirages, and the Mirage upgrade is proceeding at a glacial pace compared to that of the Mig-29. Perhaps the lack of an internal SPJ or a SAP-518 like pod is why it is not considered for "leading the charge".

I don't think we should read too much into that exclusion considering that the iaf is looking to buy extra fulcrum airframes.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18513
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 28 Sep 2019 15:55

Judging by IAF RFIs, the Su-30 MKI, Mirage, MiG-29 and MiG-21 fleet are all seeing frequent flying.

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4327
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby JayS » 28 Sep 2019 17:10

Some snippets of information On Jaguars from twitter.

- The DARIN 3 Upgrade has achieved FOC now. (Been seeing them flying quite a lot last few months).
- All Jag Radars are called 2032J but there are three versions in them. The first one is the one on Maritime Strike Jag-IM ones, Second is the on the first batch of DARIN 3 (about 30% of total DARIN 3, which is approx 18 i.e. 1 full Sq perhaps. Both these are Mechanically scanned MMR versions. The second one may have some updates in its modules compared to the first one, but not sure. The Third one is going on later batch of DARIN 3 (70% of the total upgraded Jets i.e about 45 give or take a few). This one is an AESA based on 2052 but in the smaller form factor needed for Jaguars.
- As per HAL TP HVT, 40 Jags which have Adour 804 engines will retire in early 2030s (they were never part of engine upgrade). Out of the rest Jags which were to get the re-engine upgrade, Newer 35 have life till 2040-45, while the rest will retire sometime around 2035-40.

Structural life is one thing, but I hope we can maintain them that long. We are already down to buying old Jag airframes for cannibalization. We recently bought 31 of them from France for this. And then there is the question of capability obsolescence.

mody
BRFite
Posts: 533
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Mumbai, India

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby mody » 28 Sep 2019 18:03

In most HushKit interviews, the pilots always favour the aircraft that they have flown the most. The F16 is no pushover as compared to the M2k and Greek pilots as well as pilots who have flown both types have a different opinion. Also, the F16 is certainly not under powered. Maybe the last Block 52/60/70 etc, now have added to many equipment and extra weight, but upto block 40, it certainly had a good enough power to weight ratio.
Also, with regards to air to air combat, on BRF itself we have read interviews of IAF Mig-29 pilots and they talk about air to air combat training between M2K and Mig-29s. The Mig-29s came out on top and the pilots have gone on to say with pride, how they were able to get the better of the M2K, which was considered the gold standard in IAF at the time.
Throughout the 90's the Mig-29s were generally always tasked with air superiority/air dominance role, while the M2K was tasked as per its multirole capability.

However, for air o air combat, more then the machine, the training of the pilots is more important. Poorly trained Arab pilots could do little against the Yahudi's, no matter which plane they flew. During the Korean War, both North Korean and Soviet pilots flew the Mig-15s in combat. Soviets very few understandably. They were referred to as Honchos by the Japanese and word caught on with the Americans as well. The soviet pilots were treated and engaged with, with much greater respect.

For modern fighters apart from pilot training, the quality and effectiveness of the weapon and the radar and sensors also play a very big role.
In the 60's the heat seeking missile of the Mig-21 was a dud. No matter how good the plane was, if the weapon is no good, it doesn't matter.

In our case the real revolution in the IAF will come when the NGARM, SAAW, Garuda, Garuthma, Rudra-I/II/III, Astra Mk1/2, SFDR etc. enter serial production. UTTAM AESA radar, dual band IRST module, Tarang RWR, MAWS, our own SPJ and EW suite, SDR and sensor fusion of all of these, to present a comprehensive picture to the pilot, will complete the picture for us.
Perhaps we also need a program to develop PGMs similar to SPICE and for deep penetration bunker busting roles.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4297
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 28 Sep 2019 19:14

^^^
SPICE equivalent —> PGHSLD 500kg

Image
Image
Image

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4297
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 28 Sep 2019 19:20

Further, SAAW, designed for swarm attack on large complexes with dispersed assets, would have been a better option for striking Balakot. Far fewer planes would have been required as more quantities in quad-pack can be carried per aircraft (i.e. 8-to-16 units) and launched from well within Indian borders (i.e. 100km range).


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 75 guests