Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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Indranil
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Indranil » 02 Oct 2019 02:04

JayS wrote:I hate that UPG humpback fuel tanks. Ugly as buffalo.

The Original MiG29 was the true blue hotrod dog fighter. And all that maneuverability with no FBW was sheer engineering marvel. Not even Su27 could match that, in my books.

But damn, is the plane ugly or what when it comes to aero surface finish..? I wonder if someone could have built MiG29 with French built quality, what would that have looked like. :D

Actually, those humpback fuel tanks were studied by both Mikoyan and Sukhoi in great details in the late 80s/early 90s. They were studying positions to add CFTs and their shapes. They found this have to least impact (next to nothing) effect in performance. But, I agree with you: they look ugly.

In terms of looks, I find the Mirage 2000, Mig-29, Su-30, F-16s and Jaguars the best looking aircraft. You and me have discussed at length just how aerodynamically beautiful the Mig-29 is. That was the singular focus of its designers. Given today's stress on stealth, I don't think we will see such a pure aerodynamical delight in our lifetimes.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 02 Oct 2019 02:17

Vips wrote:Even the upgraded MIG 29 still has a lot of old style dials and just one flat display. Was hoping for a Glass Cockpit.


There are 2 MFDs and they've kept some of the analog dials as backup displays, which is the case with many upgraded aircraft. It is a glass cockpit, complete with HOTAS controls.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby fanne » 02 Oct 2019 02:39

so the hum back Mig 29 will have the same ITR and STR as the one without them?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Indranil » 02 Oct 2019 02:50

Ofcourse ITR and STR would suffer if these tanks are full of fuel.

But, if you have a legacy Mig-29 and an upgraded Mig29, and both were weighing the same, the latter performs almost as good.

I have forgotten where the penalty was. But I think it was with transonic acceleration. And as I said, both Sukhoi and Mikoyan came to the same conclusions.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 02 Oct 2019 03:04

The MIG-35 with TVC is supposedly the best dogfighter in the sky, according to many western experts. The capability of the missiles a fighter carries both for BVR and WVR adds to the advantage. If like our MKIs in the post Balakot spat which avoided the PAKI BVR AMRAAMs, the combat resumes as WVR , then dogfighting capability and pilot skills come to the fore.Here the best WVR AAMs and guns make the difference.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Indranil » 02 Oct 2019 04:07

Philip sir, mig35 does not have TVC. You are speaking of the Mig29 OVT.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 02 Oct 2019 04:20

Do not try and see what the Mig-35 has or hasn't. That is impossible. Instead, realize the truth. There is no Mig-35. Then you will understand that it is not the aircraft that is new, only the name.

(with due apologies to the writers of the Matrix :mrgreen: )

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby gpurewal » 02 Oct 2019 04:42

nachiket wrote:Do not try and see what the Mig-35 has or hasn't. That is impossible. Instead, realize the truth. There is no Mig-35. Then you will understand that it is not the aircraft that is new, only the name.

(with due apologies to the writers of the Matrix :mrgreen: )


Damn,

Then what the hell did the Ruskies give us for the MMRCA trials?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Vips » 02 Oct 2019 05:13

I will have to check with Natasha to know exactly what it was :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 02 Oct 2019 07:36

Vips wrote:I will have to check with Natasha to know exactly what it was :mrgreen:

is she the one in red from the Matrix?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 02 Oct 2019 07:59

gpurewal wrote:
nachiket wrote:Do not try and see what the Mig-35 has or hasn't. That is impossible. Instead, realize the truth. There is no Mig-35. Then you will understand that it is not the aircraft that is new, only the name.

(with due apologies to the writers of the Matrix :mrgreen: )


Damn,

Then what the hell did the Ruskies give us for the MMRCA trials?


They modified the MiG-29M2, which was offered for the first iteration of MRCA when it was competing against Mirage-2000-5, F-16 and Gripen C. They put a Zhuk-A AESA radar on it, with 600 TRMs, renamed it as MiG-35 and offered it for the second iteration of MRCA, when it was competing against Rafale, SH, Typhoon and others.

However, even the MiG-35 that is going to state trials in Russia soon doesn't yet feature an AESA radar. TVC was considered as an optional feature, but not adopted by any of the customers (Egypt, Russia and possibly Algeria). They put a bigger prototype AESA on the MiG-35 prototype that was displayed at MAKS-2019, with about 1000 TRMs. However, of all the contenders in the MRCA, it has the shakiest future. No true commitment from Russia and the only customers are not going to attempt any serious capability insertions into what they've gotten, which is basically a MiG-29M2.

MiG-29M2 that appeared at Aero India shows in the early to mid 2000s

Image

Same MiG-29M2 prototype with AESA radar and smaller radome renamed as MiG-35 for India's MRCA competition

Image

MiG-29M2 for Egypt, possibly updated from the earlier MiG-29M2, with some of the avionics developed for the MiG-35. Also took some elements from the MiG-29K design, such as the larger flaps and the leading edge slats.

Image

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 02 Oct 2019 08:18

Indranil wrote:
JayS wrote:I hate that UPG humpback fuel tanks. Ugly as buffalo.

The Original MiG29 was the true blue hotrod dog fighter. And all that maneuverability with no FBW was sheer engineering marvel. Not even Su27 could match that, in my books.

But damn, is the plane ugly or what when it comes to aero surface finish..? I wonder if someone could have built MiG29 with French built quality, what would that have looked like. :D

Actually, those humpback fuel tanks were studied by both Mikoyan and Sukhoi in great details in the late 80s/early 90s. They were studying positions to add CFTs and their shapes. They found this have to least impact (next to nothing) effect in performance. But, I agree with you: they look ugly.


Granted, the CFT humpback spoils the stunning lines of the classic MiG-29 but no way is the UPG ugly!

Image

Still a beautiful fighter jet in my opinion.

my first acquaintance with the MiG-29 was at my maternal aunt's house. One of my great uncles was the first CO of No.3 Cobras post Independence and had some connection with Lohegaon AFS and had been invited to some reunion. There they gifted him a gorgeous framed shot of 2 IAF MiG-29s (with 1 breaking left) from No.47 Black Archers Squadron with a motto that was an ode to the beauty of the MiG-29.

It said "MiG-29..Even the wind stops to stare". I've been in love with the beauty of the MiG-29 since then.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srin » 02 Oct 2019 09:30

Folks, stop dissing the Mig-35. It was the only one which complied with ASQR on paper

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 02 Oct 2019 14:09

Gosh that upgrade still looks amazing.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Khalsa » 02 Oct 2019 14:38

Yeah Naa
;-)

My next love of looking at those gorgeous spines is the Su-30 MKI
and moving on to next topic ......

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby wig » 02 Oct 2019 14:54

The Mig 29 looks beautiful in flight

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby JTull » 04 Oct 2019 16:53

Summary of ACM's presser today (thx to all journos on teetar):

Rafale : Have been hearing about acquisition of 36 more Rafale aircraft. But nothing has been moved as of now. No separate plans taken up for additional 36 #Rafale fighters. Our plan is for the 114 Medium Fighter Aircraft. The first four Rafale jets to come to Indian skies by the end of May after training of pilots in France

mrca redux: Will start the process for acceptance of necessity (AON) for the 114 fighters to be Made in India shortly

AMCA/FGFA (5th Gen): India won’t be looking at fifth generation capabilities from outside, will commit all resources to the AMCA program. ‘given huge resource commitment [for fifth gen capabilities] we will only look at indigenous capability.’

MWF: LCA Mark 2 and AMCA are two separate projects. Being handled by different teams: IAF chief.

Tankers: back to square one, has rebooted the acquisition process (new RFI) — expected to now be the Boeing KC-46 VS the Airbus A330 MRTT

Drone threat: attack on Saudi oil facilities has been studied. We have been anticipating this challenge

Astra : We will work on integrating the indigenous ASTRA beyond visual range missile across platforms. Will focus on it

Su-30MKI : We have started process for ordering 12 more Su 30MKI fighters. Upgrade at advanced stage of planning. Sukhoi upgrade to integrate Indian weapons systems. Plan put under progress

M2K upgrade: It is a priority. We are in full grip of the issue. Something failed and there was an uncommanded movement. We are waiting for some inputs from OEM: IAF chief on the Mirage crash earlier this year during a flight test after upgrade by HAL.

Jags : DARIN 3 upgrade is going on as planned. Re engining plan shelved

HTT 40 : Strong show of support for the indigenous trainers by the Air Chief, says that there is no doubt that the HAL aircraft will be inducted. We have dropped the plan to procure 38 more #Pilatus training aircraft. Next induction of trainer in Air Force will be HTT40.

Added:
Mig-29 : Upgrade going as per plan. “We are going to go in for 21 MiG-29, which has already been informed [to Moscow]"
Last edited by JTull on 05 Oct 2019 14:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 04 Oct 2019 16:56

Thanks JT!

He also mentioned there is procurement in the pipeline for the drone threat.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rahul M » 04 Oct 2019 17:05

Tonbo imaging's counter drone system is gathering eyeballs. Is it desi or just stamped so ?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nam » 04 Oct 2019 19:33

Hope someone had asked about the AWACS program as well.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Nihat » 04 Oct 2019 21:14

I'm not sure which is the right thread to ask but can some gyani BRFife explain to me the nuances of the court of enquiry which concluded that we shot down our own chopper which led to the deaths of seven Bravehearts.

How can trained Air force personnel simply forget to turn on the IFF and what would be the consequences for such criminal negligence for the people involved.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karthik S » 04 Oct 2019 21:28

Rahul M wrote:Tonbo imaging's counter drone system is gathering eyeballs. Is it desi or just stamped so ?


Started by desi, but funded by a silicon valley VC.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Ganesh_S » 04 Oct 2019 22:18

IAF releases reconstructed official video on balakot strikes

https://youtu.be/HrTKNCYT50c

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby pandyan » 05 Oct 2019 00:33

JTull wrote:Tankers: back to square one, has rebooted the acquisition process (new RFI) — expected to now be the Boeing KC-46 VS the Airbus A330 MRTT

Looks like this competition would go on until Boeing wins or presents a solution that can compete with A330.


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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Austin » 05 Oct 2019 12:16


M2K and Mig29 will serve till 2040 as post upgrade they have guranteee life of 25 years

Likely they will go for more Squadron of Rafale , GOI takes final decision on these issues

SK Mehra Ex CAS once said in 90 Flanker has no role in IAF and they don’t intend to buy and lo behold we are one of largest flanker fleet today

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby mody » 05 Oct 2019 15:07

Good to know that 12 additional Su-30s and 21 Mig-29UPG will be added.
I would say just order another batch of 36 Rafael and additional 36 Tejas MK1/1A and forget about the 114 MMRCA.
If any more fighters required, order additional quantity of Tejas MK1A. If the Uttam AESA comes through, then the MK1A will not only be great aircraft but will also be cheaper. For taking on the pukes, we already have enough fire power.
For a two front war, 72 Rafael in addition to about 280 Su-30s and all the other aircrafts would be good enough.

More then just the platforms, its the weapons that will make a big difference. For example, when the PGHSLD aka Garuda comes good, along with the extended range Garuthma, the IAF will get a huge boost. Imagine the IAF having an inventory of 1,500-2,000, SPICE2000 equivalent bombs.
All other current PG weapons programs that are ongoing, will have a similar effect. 500-1000 NGARM with a 150 Km range? Any ground based radar on either side of our borders, would have to think many times over, before switching ON and start emitting.
2,000+ Astra MK1/2 all add up a revolutionary change for the IAF. Not only would they have plenty of good quality precision guided weapons, all of these weapons have been rigorously tested in our own environment and from our own platforms.
Last edited by mody on 05 Oct 2019 15:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nam » 05 Oct 2019 15:31

Fleet wide AESA FCR, AESA Jammers, Growler type Su30 with DARE AESA Jammers, Ramjet BVR (Meteor, SFDR), Dual Pulse Astra with AESA seeker, ASRAAM CCM, Indian PGMs, RWR,MAWS,SPJ.

A330 India AWACS & tanker, Akash NG, Barak 8, XRSAM(with S400), QRSAM

Except Meteor, ASRAAM & A330, all Indian kit.

How many would want to take a bet, that such a force even at 32/30 sqd can be brought down? None of these involve increasing sqd numbers and most of them can be done in the country.

Instead of wasting money on MMRCA 2, we are better off spending on these kit. The obsession with fighter numbers has caused all others programs that would actually boost firepower has been held off.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby VinodTK » 06 Oct 2019 03:03

PM Modi’s new aircraft with missile defence systems lands in June 2020
The aircraft will be the first set of planes that will only be used by PM Modi, President Ram Nath Kovind and Vice President M Venkaiah Naidu.

Two long-haul Boeing 777 aircraft with missile defence systems that will serve on Prime Minister Narendra Modi ‘Air India One’ fleet will reach India in June 2020, two people familiar with the development said.

The aircraft will be the first set of planes that will only be used by PM Modi, President Ram Nath Kovind and Vice President M Venkaiah Naidu.

The three dignitaries fly Air India’s Boeing B747 planes that the state-run airline deploys on commercial flights. These are temporarily reconfigured for the dignitaries when they need to travel; the call sign also changes to “Air India One’.

These two aircraft, which are being configured at a Boeing facility in Dallas, will be on par with the US President’s Air Force One in so far as security measures are concerned, according to South Block officials. These can fly between the US and India without having to stop for refuelling.

The Boeing B747 planes that are chartered from Air India for use of the three dignitaries are nearly more than two decades old. The one that President Ram Nath Kovind was flying on his three-nation tour last month, which developed a snag in Switzerland’s Zurich, has been in service for 26 years.

The new planes, South Block officials said, has been configured to give PM Modi some generous office space, meeting rooms and a wide array of communication systems.

These will also have the Self-Protection Suites (SPS) used in the US President’s Air Force One. This protection system includes large aircraft infrared countermeasures, integrated defensive electronic warfare suite and counter-measures dispensing system. These can jam enemy radar frequencies and divert heat-seeking missiles by disturbing their guidance systems.


This warning and countermeasures system uses multiple sensors to provide full spatial coverage and automatically counters advanced intermediate range missile systems with no action required by the crew. The pilot will be informed that a threat missile was detected and jammed.

The United States administration had announced its decision to give India access to these defence systems for the special aircraft in February 2019 as a special measure. These are estimated to have cost New Delhi US 190 million.


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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby rakall » 06 Oct 2019 16:20



3years ago (when Rafale deal was signed), I wrote this with a lot more detail.. And the sqadron number variation is basically similar...
It will peak around 2028, then it will fall by 2032-33 before the squadron strength starts increasing as more squadrons of TejasMk2, AMCA will be inducted in large numbers..
https://swarajyamag.com/defence/understanding-the-impact-of-the-rafale-fighter-jet-and-s-400-missile-system-deals-on-the-iaf

However, I disagree with the BusinessStandard article that squadron numbers will fall as low as 30.. That is not likely at all.. it seems to be just some type of scaremongering to push the Govt to move faster on the MRFA contract....

ALso, interpret the correction from the below graphics with these latest inputs:
1. LCA Mk1/1A will be basically about 6 squadrons as shown
2. More Rafale may be ordered (so could go beyond 2 squadrons to 4)
3. No FGFA. However, the numbers shown for FGFA will be basically madeup by LCA Tejas Mk2 MWF.
4. How quickly we can roll out the AMCA is the real key to IAF strength - both squadron numbers as well as qualitative (technology) strength !!!


Image

Image

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 06 Oct 2019 23:23

Looking at above don't we have 2 squadrons of MiG 27 plus I think by no 45 squadron with Tejas is now operational plus I think Su 30 is 13 squadrons
So I think IAF has about 34 operational squadrons

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 06 Oct 2019 23:45

^^^
Legacy Medium Fighters (Mirage-2000, MiG-29 and Jaguar) are not correct. They will still be around come 2032. Gradual number plating will occur in the 2030s though. Likely all retired by 2040 or so.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 07 Oct 2019 03:57

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1180790483775188993 ---> There is no way IAF squadron strength is going to dip below 30 in the next three years. That is just plain scaremongering to push imports.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1180805762135646209 ---> The last Mig-21 will retire from the IAF in 2025, not 2022. All this squadron below 30 talk is because of fears related to the Jaguars flying on old engines.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby VikramA » 07 Oct 2019 05:34

The fact that mig 21 bison will hang around till 2025 is nothing to be reassured about. I would prefer ordering additional tejas mk 1 despite it's present inadequacy in some areas then hang onto mig 21

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 07 Oct 2019 06:30



What a load of crock! What happens to the 2 LCA Mk1 squadrons by 2032? They retire within 10 years of service is it? So many things are wrong with that table. Like Austin mentioned, the MiG-29UPGs will be around till 2035 at least. Given that they’re not carrying very heavy stores, their airframe will last that long easily.

And the Mirages too. Till 2035 at least. The way I see it, if all goes according to plan (and I’m not counting 2 more Rafale squadrons or the AMCA), the IAF will have ~40 squadrons in 2035, but with 5-6 squadrons close to retiring (MiG-29UPG and Mirage-2000I). But with 2 possible lines of MRCA and MWF, the IAF will have been able to place orders for 5-6 squadrons, possibly split between the 2 types.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Atmavik » 07 Oct 2019 07:20

here is the IAF Day2019 promo video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDY5pmKcak8

@5:58 looks like an Hawk firing Rockets??? does the IAF have a weaponized Hawk?. i thought the Hawk-i was a HAL proposal. what am i missing :roll:

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Bala Vignesh » 07 Oct 2019 09:29

Atmavik wrote:here is the IAF Day2019 promo video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDY5pmKcak8

@5:58 looks like an Hawk firing Rockets??? does the IAF have a weaponized Hawk?. i thought the Hawk-i was a HAL proposal. what am i missing :roll:

The Hawk could always launch dumb weapons. It's supposed to be able to perform a weapns training to remember. The Hawk-i is supposed to make Hawk more intelligent in terms of weapons it uses by integrating smart bombs and missiles.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nam » 07 Oct 2019 13:25

So we have planned:
MK1: 2
MK1A: 6
MWF: 12
Su30: 12
Rafale: 2

Without Jag,Mig29,Mirage we will have 34 sqd! MK1 and Su30 will get upgraded, none of the getting retired. Mirage and Mig29 will still be around. We are not going to throw away the new 21 Mig29 in 15 years!

The remaining gap can be filled with more MWF. Meanwhile AMCA will start coming online..

The solution to our numbers problem is simple. Create a 32 line LCA. Produce MK1A until MWF comes. The produce MWF until AMCA comes. As simple as that.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby tandav » 07 Oct 2019 13:59

Bala Vignesh wrote:
Atmavik wrote:here is the IAF Day2019 promo video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDY5pmKcak8

@5:58 looks like an Hawk firing Rockets??? does the IAF have a weaponized Hawk?. i thought the Hawk-i was a HAL proposal. what am i missing :roll:

The Hawk could always launch dumb weapons. It's supposed to be able to perform a weapns training to remember. The Hawk-i is supposed to make Hawk more intelligent in terms of weapons it uses by integrating smart bombs and missiles.


Can they used for perimeter defence against drone or subsonic cruise missiles

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Bala Vignesh » 07 Oct 2019 22:02

Drones May be not but subsonic cruise missile should work but that would be better handdled by a SAM in any case. The worst case scenario when these assets may be required would be to givenCAS in a last ditch effort, IMO.


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