Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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nachiket
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 02 Nov 2019 00:40

tsarkar wrote:
LakshmanPST wrote:can't they continue operating it for another 5-6 years as a Strike aircraft just to maintain nos....?

Engine spares unavailable from OEM. The Sea Harrier was decommissioned for same reason. Both types had undergone extensive avionics upgrades that are completely going waste.

Exactly, the avionics upgrade wasn't that long ago. And the aircraft could have remained usable and combat capable if not for the engine issues. Back in the early 2000's there was a proposal to re-engine the Mig-27 with the AL-31F. But it would have required structural changes including modified intakes and the Russians insisted it could only be performed in Russia. I'm sure it would have cost a pretty penny as well and the IAF wasn't interested (they were expecting the induction of 126 MRCA's in a few years anyway at that point). Looking at the reliability issues we faced with the AL-31's on the MKI fleet this would have ended badly had it been done so we probably dodged a bullet there.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 02 Nov 2019 02:20

nachiket wrote:
tsarkar wrote:Engine spares unavailable from OEM. The Sea Harrier was decommissioned for same reason. Both types had undergone extensive avionics upgrades that are completely going waste.

Exactly, the avionics upgrade wasn't that long ago. And the aircraft could have remained usable and combat capable if not for the engine issues. Back in the early 2000's there was a proposal to re-engine the Mig-27 with the AL-31F. But it would have required structural changes including modified intakes and the Russians insisted it could only be performed in Russia. I'm sure it would have cost a pretty penny as well and the IAF wasn't interested (they were expecting the induction of 126 MRCA's in a few years anyway at that point). Looking at the reliability issues we faced with the AL-31's on the MKI fleet this would have ended badly had it been done so we probably dodged a bullet there.

Will the upgraded mirage 2000s have engine issues one wonders, would have to see it wasted like the Shar. We will still be insisting dash 5m2ks when most other users are starting to get rid of them...

Reg. The al31 fiasco, didn't the lost decade under UPA have something to do with spares availability?

Maybe my fantasy of having al31s on the m2k will come true....

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 02 Nov 2019 02:52

Cain Marko wrote:Will the upgraded mirage 2000s have engine issues one wonders, would have to see it wasted like the Shar. We will still be insisting dash 5m2ks when most other users are starting to get rid of them...

Do still we have any with Dash 5 engines? I thought we replaced the engines on the initial lot with -P2's.

Reg. The al31 fiasco, didn't the lost decade under UPA have something to do with spares availability?
Maybe my fantasy of having al31s on the m2k will come true....

Yes spares support issues were present. But the original problem was higher number of engine failures than expected and necessity for more frequent overhauls as a result. But the MKI could fly back on a single engine. If this had happened in the Mig-27 it would be a crash every time.

AL-31's on M2k's is a nice fantasy (it would give it a cool Mig-29/F-16esque T:W ratio) but it will remain a fantasy unfortunately.

I have always felt the M53 was a somewhat disappointing product from the French when compared to its peers like the PW F100 and AL-31F in terms of performance. Reliability is a different story however.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 02 Nov 2019 03:04

nachiket wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Will the upgraded mirage 2000s have engine issues one wonders, would have to see it wasted like the Shar. We will still be insisting dash 5m2ks when most other users are starting to get rid of them...

Do still we have any with Dash 5 engines? I thought we replaced the engines on the initial lot with -P2's.

Reg. The al31 fiasco, didn't the lost decade under UPA have something to do with spares availability?
Maybe my fantasy of having al31s on the m2k will come true....

Yes spares support issues were present. But the original problem was higher number of engine failures than expected and necessity for more frequent overhauls as a result. But the MKI could fly back on a single engine. If this had happened in the Mig-27 it would be a crash every time.

AL-31's on M2k's is a nice fantasy (it would give it a cool Mig-29/F-16esque T:W ratio) but it will remain a fantasy unfortunately.

I have always felt the M53 was a somewhat disappointing product from the French when compared to its peers like the PW F100 and AL-31F in terms of performance. Reliability is a different story however.


The dash 5s all used the p2s iirc and they are now being considered for offloading by many countries... UAE, Taiwan and France itself. Thing is iaf is still inducting these birds. While avionics wise they'll still be tip top, how will the engines be maintained? Hope it's not like the lush shars again, it's too important an asset.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 02 Nov 2019 03:12

Cain Marko wrote:The dash 5s all used the p2s iirc and they are now being considered for offloading by many countries... UAE, Taiwan and France itself. Thing is iaf is still inducting these birds. While avionics wise they'll still be tip top, how will the engines be maintained? Hope it's not like the lush shars again, it's too important an asset.

Oops. I thought you meant the original M53-5 (Dash 5) engines not the M2k-5 variant.

Yes I had the same doubt about the engines after the upgrade that you do. Maybe the IAF has made the necessary assessments and pre-ordered extra spares.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 02 Nov 2019 03:21

https://twitter.com/zone5aviation/statu ... 9230989319 ---> After 38 years in uniform and 5,100 flying hours across types (an incredible 2300 hours on Mirage 2000s alone!), Air Marshal Raghunath Nambiar hangs up his uniform today. A veteran of the 1999 Kargil Conflict and an accomplished test pilot, he retires as AOC-in-C Western Air Command.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 02 Nov 2019 03:23

https://twitter.com/DefencePROPalam/sta ... 3191672833 ---> Air Marshal B Suresh took over as the AOC-in-C, Western Air Command today morning. The Air Marshal reviewed a ceremonial Guard of Honour & thereafter outlined his vision for the Western Air Command in consonance with the objectives of the IAF and the nation.

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https://twitter.com/DefencePROPalam/sta ... 4555111425 ---> Air Marshal B Suresh is an alumnus of NDA, he was commissioned as a fighter pilot in the IAF on 13 Dec 1980. During his illustrious career, he has held a number of coveted command & staff appointments. Before taking over as AOC-in-C WAC, he was AOC-in-C SAC.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 02 Nov 2019 04:17

LakshmanPST wrote:I know it is IAF's decision, and they obviously know what they're doing... But I have a doubt...
----
The latest MIG 27s were inducted after 1986... They're around 30 years old... I guess they have few more years left in their airframe life...
The canon may have become redundant, but why can't they use the jets for other roles... When the squadron strength is low, can't they continue operating it for another 5-6 years as a Strike aircraft just to maintain nos....?


Even with some airframe life possibly left (Total Technical Life of 3000 hrs), the decision to retire the MiG-27 UPG also makes sense to me because pilots/technicians can all be moved and converted to existing types, especially MKI squadrons that need more manpower than other types. There are still 2 more MKI squadrons to be formed based on the number of MKIs that have to be delivered to the IAF by HAL out of the 272 ordered.

The MiG-27 UPG, even with the upgrade is a very limited single role jet. It's primary mission, air to ground interdiction and CAS, is risky in today's battlefield with the IAF also moving towards stand off attacks as much as possible. It cannot defend itself, it carried air to surface weapons that were almost exclusively of Russian origin and must've been running out of shelf life themselves. Litening LDP integration was done and it could carry LGBs (see image below) but I'm not sure how good the aircraft was at mission profiles that required medium to high altitude stand off strike. The MiG-27 was too long in the tooth to be integrated with the newer bombs coming into service like HSLD, Spice 2000, etc.

Image

So basically the way I see it, the primary issues that would have driven its retirement:

1- Poor attrition rate for the type. the MiG-23 and MiG-27 have the worst attrition rate of all IAF fast jets. Far worse than the MiG-21 that gets maligned with all sorts of name calling. Remember, the attrition rate is measured on the basis of number of crashes (or writeoffs) per 10,000 hours.

2- the IAF is the last Air Force using MiG-27s. Spares will now be harder to come by as there is no other customer for the OEM, MiG. Whatever spares could be indigenised would be, but many would be very hard to come by

3- Higher workload for pilots, with poor flexibility for taking on mission profiles that it wasn't designed for. All other types in service now, are far more flexible and can take on multiple combat roles.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby naird » 07 Nov 2019 04:47

Another fantastic podcast. Do give a listen. These guys are doing a great job. Nothing new - but just listening to the classifications of AtoA missions is pretty insightful. Also the pilot confirms Balakot scenario - of fighters hiding in mountain valleys and surprising the adversaries. This podcast was recorded a year back but pretty much gave out the scenario of how Abhi surprised Pakis !


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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby tandav » 07 Nov 2019 09:14

I am disappointed... Lack of Fitness apparent from the pics from IAF. Most folks seem to have a paunch.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Khalsa » 07 Nov 2019 14:59

I second you there.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby kit » 07 Nov 2019 15:52

tandav wrote:I am disappointed... Lack of Fitness apparent from the pics from IAF. Most folks seem to have a paunch.


the fighter pilots seem to be more fit though., are these chaps in the "transport" sections :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 07 Nov 2019 15:54

kartikji,
what happens to the retired planes' engines? are they left as showcases or can they be used for some reverse engineering or performance benchmarking or just for exploration to those who wish to explore (not that many would be interested)

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 07 Nov 2019 15:55

kit wrote:
tandav wrote:I am disappointed... Lack of Fitness apparent from the pics from IAF. Most folks seem to have a paunch.


the fighter pilots seem to be more fit though., are these chaps in the "transport" sections :mrgreen:

i had a tenant who said he was mig29 fighter, he was no better. In a way this is a desk job too :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: just that the desk moves quite fast...

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby kit » 07 Nov 2019 15:57

ArjunPandit wrote:
kit wrote:
the fighter pilots seem to be more fit though., are these chaps in the "transport" sections :mrgreen:

i had a tenant who said he was mig29 fighter, he was no better. In a way this is a desk job too :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: just that the desk moves quite fast...



those desks do pull 5 and 7 Gs though, do they have the stomach :mrgreen: for it ?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 07 Nov 2019 16:05

bigger stomachs to pull bigger g? or is it a big paunch for a big punch?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 07 Nov 2019 21:19

^ i thought short fat guys had advantage in pulling Gs :)

@ 1:02 onwards


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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 07 Nov 2019 23:08

tandav wrote:I am disappointed... Lack of Fitness apparent from the pics from IAF. Most folks seem to have a paunch.

Almost all of the men are airmen and not fighter pilots. Do you see pilots wings on their shirts to tell you that they’re pilots?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 08 Nov 2019 03:24

Twitter link

Airbus still talking to Indian government about AWACS having already been selected once (with A330). Also bidding for tanker with A330 MRTT having won competition twice already. Alberto Gutierrez Head of Mil Aircraft believes A400M is right size airlifter for India. #AirbusTMB


Twitter link

Airbus ‘optimistic and confident’ about existing efforts in India. Hoke: “We’ve been running campaigns there for a decade.” Adding, “Avro contract is important. We’d build 16 C295s in Europe and 40 with Tatra in India.” He believes there is market for 150 C295s there. #AirbusTMB

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Picklu » 08 Nov 2019 19:58

nachiket wrote:Picklu saar I was unaware of Fl Lt Chibber. Will report to re-education camp asap. :oops:

BTW, Kaiser Tufail tried to downplay the incident in his blog post by saying that this: "There were a few cases of F-16s and Mirage-2000s locking their adversaries with the on-board radars, but caution usually prevailed and no close encounters took place."

He does not mention the Mig-29 incident and fails to say what exactly the F-16's were supposed to do with a radar lock since they carried no radar guided missiles unlike their IAF counterparts which did. :P


Sorry for being late, work pressure as usual.

Kaisar Tufail used to participate in ACIG forum then and casually admitted the spanking paf received including the pant browning part. In multiple long posts, too.
The paki members were shocked; gave good amount of "traitor", "national secret", "h&d", "izlam khatrey me hai" etc etc.

Someone must have reported this to PAF HQ because after a few days he deleted all his posts and deleted his profile in the forum as well. His blog, came up much later, gives a very sanitized info.

ACIG got hacked and went offline after sometime. May be the oldies and folks like Tom Cooper would remember this. The best person to remember the same, B. Harry, is no more unfortunately, a loss that still causes pain :(

Again, sorry for coming back onto this but such memories of IAF spanking PAF need to be kept alive in the public (i am sure IAF insiders have a lot more but not public) else we give a free hand to "MM Alam superman" & "PAF won 1971 but PA lost the war" folks.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 09 Nov 2019 21:24

Image

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby JTull » 09 Nov 2019 21:54

Like

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Roop » 09 Nov 2019 22:36

A YouTube video from Shiv:


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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 09 Nov 2019 23:16

The pilots name was Ceasar. He would spell it differently as I recall, Ceaser or some such thing. Not sure whether it was Tufail or someone else because he appeared far less jingoistic than Tufail. On the Indian side, a pilot under the handle of Balderdash was a participant, a Mirage 2000 veteran. The story was that two F-16s were locked on, and a young greenhorn panicked badly, and was roundly laughed at back on landing. On Jagans blog, an IAF veteran posted and noted it was he who had locked on two F-16s while Chibber was his wingman.

Picklu wrote:
nachiket wrote:Picklu saar I was unaware of Fl Lt Chibber. Will report to re-education camp asap. :oops:

BTW, Kaiser Tufail tried to downplay the incident in his blog post by saying that this: "There were a few cases of F-16s and Mirage-2000s locking their adversaries with the on-board radars, but caution usually prevailed and no close encounters took place."

He does not mention the Mig-29 incident and fails to say what exactly the F-16's were supposed to do with a radar lock since they carried no radar guided missiles unlike their IAF counterparts which did. :P


Sorry for being late, work pressure as usual.

Kaisar Tufail used to participate in ACIG forum then and casually admitted the spanking paf received including the pant browning part. In multiple long posts, too.
The paki members were shocked; gave good amount of "traitor", "national secret", "h&d", "izlam khatrey me hai" etc etc.

Someone must have reported this to PAF HQ because after a few days he deleted all his posts and deleted his profile in the forum as well. His blog, came up much later, gives a very sanitized info.

ACIG got hacked and went offline after sometime. May be the oldies and folks like Tom Cooper would remember this. The best person to remember the same, B. Harry, is no more unfortunately, a loss that still causes pain :(

Again, sorry for coming back onto this but such memories of IAF spanking PAF need to be kept alive in the public (i am sure IAF insiders have a lot more but not public) else we give a free hand to "MM Alam superman" & "PAF won 1971 but PA lost the war" folks.


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