Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3836
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 29 Nov 2019 15:21

Aditya_V wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:One thing that did surprise me on that fateful day is that the MKIs did not use Sarh homers and the Bars to counterattack at longer ranges and ruin a few salwars. IIRC they have more reach than the R77s and probly the aim120C. Perhaps there just wasn't enough time


The IAF was probably tied up by ROE's since the Political leadership probably did not want things to escalate further, Also it was the PAF which picked the time and place of choosing, unlike in an open war IAF could not predict what exactly they were willing to do?

I think the ROE explanation is most likely. The rest might not have mattered considering that being locked on by the bars should've given them plenty of pause. Iirc this is how the Chibber incident went down. Of course they didn't have the amraams then.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4596
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 29 Nov 2019 16:00

Philip wrote:How is the M2K upgrade programme doing, at $50M a pop? Last news was that only 7 out of the 54 had been upgraded and then came the crash of a two- seater.HAL and the IAF have also been at loggerheads over labour payments.The DM should resolve any issues asap if it is holding up the upgrades.


2 were upgraded by Dassault, and HAL had upgraded 12 by February 2019. Maybe a few more by now. So I'd expect ~19-20 Mirage-2000Is.

link

“There is no way of confirming how many of them were the upgraded versions and how many the original ones. But I can say that we have so far upgraded a dozen Mirage 2000s,” said the official. “After the upgrades, they have more teeth and are almost like new aircraft with improved performance ratings. That’s all I can say now.”

Lekhraj
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 37
Joined: 15 Aug 2006 20:43
Location: Planet Earth

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Lekhraj » 29 Nov 2019 16:41

Haridas wrote:
Dileep wrote:
Correct. This is 5BRD Sulur. They service Avros. The Avros in the pic are 'in service' . The DC-3 is a display piece.

The last few IAF DC3 Dakotas kept flying due to dedicated efforts of my father. He was recommended to AVSM award for that effort and also for his stellar professional performance ending with being an AEB examiner for 8 years.


Heartfelt thanks and respect for you father.

VickyAvinash
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 22
Joined: 02 Oct 2017 07:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby VickyAvinash » 29 Nov 2019 19:15

Lekhraj wrote:
Haridas wrote:The last few IAF DC3 Dakotas kept flying due to dedicated efforts of my father. He was recommended to AVSM award for that effort and also for his stellar professional performance ending with being an AEB examiner for 8 years.


Heartfelt thanks and respect for you father.

Second that

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20147
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 30 Nov 2019 02:40

12+ would be good going.Did any of the upgraded M2Ks take part in the last spat with Pak?

Bala Vignesh
BRFite
Posts: 1999
Joined: 30 Apr 2009 02:02
Location: Standing at the edge of the cliff
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Bala Vignesh » 01 Dec 2019 01:04

Philip wrote:12+ would be good going.Did any of the upgraded M2Ks take part in the last spat with Pak?

At least 2 that we know of, which were handling the southern half of the front with 4 Mirage V and 4 JF-17's opposite them.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4596
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 01 Dec 2019 01:07

Philip wrote:12+ would be good going.Did any of the upgraded M2Ks take part in the last spat with Pak?


Possibly some- since I believe the upgraded Mirage-2000s were first going to the No.9 'Wolfpack' squadron and it was this squadron whose Mirages undertook the Balakot mission. Some of them were armed with air to air missiles and those may have been the upgraded Mirages. those carrying Spice 2000s could've been the Mirage-2000H/TH since they had been armed with it before the upgrade itself.

Image

JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2658
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby JTull » 01 Dec 2019 05:45

Any update on the flight control software issues in the HAL crash?

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18641
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 01 Dec 2019 06:45

Will be classified in all probability. Dassault won't want a peep out there lest it create a buzz.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7218
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 02 Dec 2019 23:44

Cain Marko wrote:One thing that did surprise me on that fateful day is that the MKIs did not use Sarh homers and the Bars to counterattack at longer ranges and ruin a few salwars. IIRC they have more reach than the R77s and probly the aim120C. Perhaps there just wasn't enough time

Not very useful IMO. There would have been zero probability of an R-27 actually hitting one of the pakis. The MKI's had incoming AMRAAMs and would have to go cold to evade them at some point after launching the R-27's at which point the R-27's would be trashed. The pakis could go cold once the AMRAAMs got into seeker range. Might be useful as a scare tactic perhaps but the MKI's were heavily outnumbered and needed to conserve their shots unlike the paki spray and pray method.

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4366
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby JayS » 03 Dec 2019 00:09

Kartik wrote:
Philip wrote:12+ would be good going.Did any of the upgraded M2Ks take part in the last spat with Pak?


Possibly some- since I believe the upgraded Mirage-2000s were first going to the No.9 'Wolfpack' squadron and it was this squadron whose Mirages undertook the Balakot mission. Some of them were armed with air to air missiles and those may have been the upgraded Mirages. those carrying Spice 2000s could've been the Mirage-2000H/TH since they had been armed with it before the upgrade itself.



Reportedly the Strike package did not have any upgraded ones. But the couple on CAP the next day were the upgrades ones, from what I remember.

Some time back this year, Vishnu Som had mentioned, likely on twitter, that one full Sq was upgraded.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18641
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 03 Dec 2019 00:13

The Strike package had a mix of upgrades and non upgraded aircraft.
The upgrades were the escorts. The non upgrades carried the A2G PGMs.

The fighters on CAP the next day were upgrades.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3836
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 03 Dec 2019 11:16

nachiket wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:One thing that did surprise me on that fateful day is that the MKIs did not use Sarh homers and the Bars to counterattack at longer ranges and ruin a few salwars. IIRC they have more reach than the R77s and probly the aim120C. Perhaps there just wasn't enough time

Not very useful IMO. There would have been zero probability of an R-27 actually hitting one of the pakis. The MKI's had incoming AMRAAMs and would have to go cold to evade them at some point after launching the R-27's at which point the R-27's would be trashed. The pakis could go cold once the AMRAAMs got into seeker range. Might be useful as a scare tactic perhaps but the MKI's were heavily outnumbered and needed to conserve their shots unlike the paki spray and pray method.

Hmm good points. I was forgetting that the MKI were outnumbered. And I'm sure that played an important role in the minds of the pilots. India need to have more qra assets in that area. Tejas mk1 would be perfect. And extra see.

deejay
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3888
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby deejay » 04 Dec 2019 12:15

Vidur wrote:
Karan M wrote:
Jammers are useful if you are nose-on or 180 degrees receding, given the fact jammers are nothing but lower powered "versions" of a radar type set-up. If you are maneuvering, your jammers will lose the target aircraft so its radar would work again. So unless you have a towed decoy to seduce incoming missiles, really there is no 360 degree SPJ in the true sense (think sphere not angles), which is why chaff remains so popular.

That apart, the issue was the F-16s were not in missile range. To get that range, the MKIs, especially Avenger 1, were on burner and closed in to the F-16s despite the risk of oncoming missiles, not theoretical but real as they had already launched. This occurred repeatedly. Avenger1's ultra-aggressiveness was what frustrated the Pakistanis, and they retreated to form a BARCAP. They were not able to shoot down the Su-30s, were losing rounds, running out of fuel, being locked in place, remember the clock was ticking and more Indian reinforcements were rushing to theater. And meanwhile, Avenger 1 was racing in to the fight at burner, maneuvering into danger to get his own WCS solution and then getting out - on that day, that crew took the game to the line and beyond. This is the reason many feel that even the Avenger 1 crew deserved an award. Just imagine the situation for a moment, AMRAAMs on the way, RWR is buzzing with a F-16 tone, instead of staying defensive, the Avenger 1 crew went in nonetheless and to the point they would start getting the F-16s within their dynamic launch envelope, and racing out only when it became clear the threat was all but unbeatable. To do it once, is nuts enough, apparently they did it repeatedly. Abhinandan was not the only ultra-aggressive person in theater that day.

If anything justified the IAFs investment in its pilots, its efforts in choosing them, training them to pair their aggression with skill, the choice of the heavy duty Flanker platform, it was this. They stayed in the fight and took the fight to the Vipers who were attacking from was a classic advantageous position and hence expected the Flankers to stay wholly defensive.

And these were our standard squadron pilots, not a hand-picked crew from CCS executing a prepared ambush. The same situation, on Feb 26th, the PAF pilots *ran*. They saw a large formation of Mirage 2000s headed their way, refused to engage. In our case, outnumbered the Su-30s stayed in theater, stayed in the fight, and did not screw up tactically, kept moving into offense, frustrating the Pakis, till the AEW&C called it off, and then they retreated to form the BARCAP. And then came Abhi.



Yes, the issue persists with the R-118 and SAP-518, but typically what you can do is decouple the RWR from the SPJ and set latter to auto. It has its own ESM receiver and will jam accordingly as and when it sees a threat, without being triggered by the RWR and then manually allocated to specific threats. Not perfect, but still functional.


Very informative post on air battle on 27/02. @Deejay do you endorse ?


Of Course I do. There is no doubt that within the military engagements, and this has been repeatedly borne out, that while we have been strategically defensive and Pakis strategically offensive, tactically we have always been more hostile. 27/2 PAF's entire engagement was defensive while from our side we were always aggressive.

Further to Karan's point of pilots. We have to understand that the pilots flying in IAF Sqns are already an extremely filtered, chosen elite. Irrespective of their situation as a line pilot or some extra qualification that they hold, the sheer scrutiny, continuous training, exhaustive contingency planning and testing in Squadrons are enough to weed out any one who has slackened even one bit. None of your fellow citizens who make it as a fighter pilots are less that "elitest" that is there.

Bhaskar_T
BRFite
Posts: 268
Joined: 13 Feb 2011 19:09

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Bhaskar_T » 05 Dec 2019 10:00

ANI tweets below. Don't know what exactly happened.

https://t.co/D6qkXDsPxU, 5 Dec 2019

Indian Air Force: IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria & his team were present at the time of shooting incident at Joint Base Pearl Harbor Hickam, the US Navy and Air Force Base, in Hawai, USA. All IAF personnel, including the chief are safe and unaffected by the incident.

Aarvee
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 100
Joined: 14 Oct 2016 07:43

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aarvee » 05 Dec 2019 10:22

Looks like there was a mass shooting

https://www.news.com.au/world/north-ame ... 000648f9e5


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Dennis, Sanju, srai, Vamsee and 72 guests