Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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Karthik S
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karthik S » 25 Dec 2019 17:16

nam wrote:It is fascinating how their is constant complains about not having enough defence budget, but the money automatically appears for Rafales, S400, P8I, AH64 for IA, T90 tanks or picking up the last C17.. etc.

There doesn't seem to be a problem in money supply when it comes to imports..


Apart from T 90 and to some degree AH64, all others are a good buy.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby putnanja » 25 Dec 2019 18:12

Mig-27 all set to be retired in IAF ...

MiG 27 to pass into history, its last squadron to be decommissioned in Jodhpur on Friday

IAF's "lethal" fighter aircraft Mig 27, which proved to be "ace attacker" during the 1999 Kargil war and earned nickname of 'Bahadur' from pilots, are all set to pass into the glorious history of country's air force on Friday when their last squadron of seven planes will have its last sortie from Jodhpur air base.

“The squadron of seven MiG 27 will have its last sortie from Jodhpur Air Base on December 27. All the planes of this squadron will be decommissioned on this day, after which none of them would be flying anywhere in the country,” said defence spokesperson

Col Sombit Ghosh on Tuesday, announcing the scheduled decommissioning of Russianmade MiG 27 aircraft from the South West Air Command.
A New Delhi-based IAF officer said the Jodhpur-based squadron of MiG 27 is the last one not only in SWAC but in the entire country

"After decommissioning of MiG 27's last squadron from Jodhpur air base, the aircraft will pass into history not only in India but in the entire world. No other country operates MiG 27 now," said the officer, requesting anonymity.
...

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Vips » 25 Dec 2019 21:10

putnanja wrote:
"After decommissioning of MiG 27's last squadron from Jodhpur air base, the aircraft will pass into history not only in India but in the entire world. No other country operates MiG 27 now," said the officer, requesting anonymity.
...

Of course, only India is willing the dumping ground for failed Russian Junk.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya G » 25 Dec 2019 22:21

From available accounts C-295 and LCA Mk1A contracts are near fruition. Hope these will go through.

I want navy to have more ships but imho the 3rd carrier and amphibs are not happening. I think we are going to see a reduction in force levels for the navy from the highs of 5 years back.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 26 Dec 2019 08:35

Media reports.LCA contract for the next 80+ Mk-1A aircraft will be announced at the 2020 Lucknow Defence Expo. V.good news, as the manufacturers have reduced the cost by 20% as earlier it was almost equal to an MKI!

Hopefully, the ASW helo requirement for the IN will also go through after the 24 ASW helos from the US. The 2 LUH contracts are also in limbo , the KA-226 appearing to be inordinately delayed (deliberately?), perhaps to sneak in the HAL LUH which has yet to finish its testing regime.Here at least the KA deal was signed with Ru, but the large number for 100+ for the IN, both IA,IN and IAF still flying v.ancient Chetak/ All-3 birds ,still flying thanks to duct tape and prayers, has been critical for several years. These deals must be finalised and executed otherwise the 3 services will be severely affected in capability.No patriotic citizen will deny the basic needs of the armed forces approved.Is the problem stinginess by the FM and vested interests in the MOD, or a political dithering?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Barath » 26 Dec 2019 10:11

putnanja wrote:Mig-27 all set to be retired in IAF



Remembering Bahadur

https://hushkit.net/2018/08/15/flying-a ... mig-pilot/

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Vips » 26 Dec 2019 11:02

Philip wrote:The 2 LUH contracts are also in limbo , the KA-226 appearing to be inordinately delayed (deliberately?), perhaps to sneak in the HAL LUH which has yet to finish its testing regime.Here at least the KA deal was signed with Ru,


Rightfully so. The over promising and under delivering Russians are upto their usual games and are trying to back track on the localization/indegnization that was agreed for and with India for the KA-226. They want to now reduce it from over 80% to less then 60%. I hope the babus will keep the russian jokers entertained with biskoot and samosa for the next 6-12 months by which time the LUH will be ready post all the testing.It has already done trials at heights of 20,000 Plus feet in hot and cold weather.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 26 Dec 2019 11:26

There is simply no need for the Ka-226T. HAL should be asked to tie up with a private sector Strategic Partner to set up 2 assembly lines for the HAL LUH to meet the IAF and IA's needs. It is an unnecessary type when the LUH is shaping up well and has almost achieved FOC.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 26 Dec 2019 11:57

Barath wrote:
putnanja wrote:Mig-27 all set to be retired in IAF



Remembering Bahadur

https://hushkit.net/2018/08/15/flying-a ... mig-pilot/



Great article.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 26 Dec 2019 11:59

The KA-226 is unique in its modular cabin pods.The IA chose it after the most extensive contest.We need several hundreds of LUHs,with around 60 immediately. I can understand if it was a similar design to the HAL LUH., but it's diffetent. HAL's production rate is v.poor, the MOD is keeping pvt. players out and the need is of a few years ago. The KAs will comd far quicker in built anc kit form allowing us to induct it faster into the IA. Look at the LCA too.We've yet to improve production facilities and consistent quality in aircraft and helo manufacture by HAL. In a couple of years the HAL LUH could take over once the KA order is complete,or even begin in parallel for requirements. I estimate around 400+ reqd. for both civil and military and this doesn't include the IN's requirement where the Panther is the hot favourite.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby LakshmanPST » 26 Dec 2019 12:06



What will be the aircraft for Ground Attack role in IAF now...?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Nihat » 26 Dec 2019 12:10

LakshmanPST wrote:


What will be the aircraft for Ground Attack role in IAF now...?



MKI and upgraded jaguars

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 26 Dec 2019 18:02

^^^

All!

Every IAF aircraft type is multi-role and with PGM capability. Stand-off attack is the preferred method up until the degradation of enemy AD.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 26 Dec 2019 19:11

The key difference is that the MIG-27s were especially meant for GA/ CS duties with the cockpit armourplated against ground fire.Not so the Jags and LCA which would be v.hard put to survive AA fire. It is extremely sad that the IAF have their heads in the clouds,literally speaking, when stats from all our wars have shown that almost two-thirds of our air losses were due to ground fire not air combat! With theatre commands going to replace separate individual commands for each service, the air-land battle with the reorganised strike formations will require seamless and integrated air support . Without the dedicated GA/ CS aircraft like the MIG-27s, other options would not be as survivable and our losses would theoretically mount.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 26 Dec 2019 19:48

Philip wrote:The key difference is that the MIG-27s were especially meant for GA/ CS duties with the cockpit armourplated against ground fire.Not so the Jags and LCA which would be v.hard put to survive AA fire.


No MiG-27 would routinely survive a SAM hit.

It is extremely sad that the IAF have their heads in the clouds,literally speaking, when stats from all our wars have shown that almost two-thirds of our air losses were due to ground fire not air combat! With theatre commands going to replace separate individual commands for each service, the air-land battle with the reorganised strike formations will require seamless and integrated air support . Without the dedicated GA/ CS aircraft like the MIG-27s, other options would not be as survivable and our losses would theoretically mount.


Au contraire. The IA has its head straight and its best we try to understand what they are doing. They are using LDPs and high-precision nav systems to conduct medium alt strikes with dumb bombs with great accuracy. Next, by doing so, they give their pilots more reaction time vs SAM/AAA threats, especially when using EW.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby manjgu » 26 Dec 2019 20:14

Mig27 was a maintenance nightmare as well plus the days of planes screaming down firing cannons, dropping bombs are well over given the proliferation of SAM's etc. espicially against PA, PAF dense AD IMHO .... i think its a good decision which will reduce the different types of a/c in IAF.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby fanne » 26 Dec 2019 23:42

My take, we need a dedicated, yet survivable CAS plane that can take AA hits (which LCA cannot and Jags will not survive much) and survive and then have heavy and dedicated anti-SAM measures (that all IAF plane can be upgraded to, including this new CAS plane). It would be optimized for low speed (none of our planes are), cannon as one of the main armaments (to stratify enemy positions very near to friendly's, though guided/dumb bombs can make this redundant), decent loiter time and some ability to fight back AA attack (if not escorted).
Mig 27 was somewhat of that plane. There is a reason, USAF is not replacing their A-10 and Russians have SU 25.
Current and future IAF plane can do some of this (it will excel in interdiction, but not CAS), but dedicated plane built for this would be great. We may have some tactical situations where these kind of plane will be very handy (Longewala battle and some others).
Maybe the time for that is gone. In theory, IA artillery, MBRL, Attack helos can do this job, but dedicated CAS plane brings huge flexibility and capability which none of these other options have.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby VKumar » 27 Dec 2019 00:55

CAS is now helicopter territory. For stand off use missiles. Slow flying fixed wing are vulnerable.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 27 Dec 2019 01:36

@fanne: Only the A-10 Warthog can do what you are asking for. That thing is a beast.

Cancel MRCA and buy some used A-10s :lol: Way cheaper than 114 MRCA.

Focus on Tejas (Mk1, Mk1A and Mk2) and increase their production capacity.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 27 Dec 2019 02:19

Karan M wrote:
Philip wrote:The key difference is that the MIG-27s were especially meant for GA/ CS duties with the cockpit armourplated against ground fire.Not so the Jags and LCA which would be v.hard put to survive AA fire.


No MiG-27 would routinely survive a SAM hit.

It is extremely sad that the IAF have their heads in the clouds,literally speaking, when stats from all our wars have shown that almost two-thirds of our air losses were due to ground fire not air combat! With theatre commands going to replace separate individual commands for each service, the air-land battle with the reorganised strike formations will require seamless and integrated air support . Without the dedicated GA/ CS aircraft like the MIG-27s, other options would not be as survivable and our losses would theoretically mount.


Au contraire. The IA has its head straight and its best we try to understand what they are doing. They are using LDPs and high-precision nav systems to conduct medium alt strikes with dumb bombs with great accuracy. Next, by doing so, they give their pilots more reaction time vs SAM/AAA threats, especially when using EW.


Exactly. And the pilot being seated in a titanium bathtub was merely to protect his life. The MiG-27 was a single engine jet and a single bullet or AAA round in the wrong spot could bring it down.

The era of CAS using dumb weapons is now mostly a thing of the past since the enemy ground formations will have embedded short range SAM and AAA which no MiG-27 could have survived anyway. The only way to go is with good radar and good LDP pod to allow detecting the ground formations from a safe distance and great onboard algorithms that allow dumb bombs to be dropped accurately. And for more strategic well defended targets, we need lots of cheaper precision weapons with good stand-off capability, like Garuda and Garuthma.

Gulf War 1 itself made it clear that flying low and fast will not necessarily be a good tactic.

LCA Mk1A will be very viable replacement for the MiG-27 given that the payload is nearly the same, but the Mk1A is way more sophisticated in nearly every respect.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Avtar Singh » 27 Dec 2019 02:26

^^^^ meant for comment about A10/warthog
PM Modi should have bought the line off Trump on one of his visits a bit like Rafale purchase.
I think it is closed now.
It would have been perfect for an Indian Army Air Corps.....
They could have used it for hosing down/cleaning out Himalayan Valleys;
No depleted uranium though..

All that talk of PLA getting to Delhi would have been put to bed with A10s cruising
around at low level.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 27 Dec 2019 02:35

I think Rakesh was joking. There has never been any interest in the A-10 from the IA. Buying any is out of the question and the idea that somehow A-10s will make it impossible for mechanised or armoured units to get through is not real at all. MANPADS and SAM systems like SpyDer, QRSAM, TOR or Pantsir or a decent AA system like the upgraded Tunguska or Biho would be able to take them down and any A-10 force will suffer huge attrition rates.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Arun.prabhu » 27 Dec 2019 05:30

I'm aware of the Gerald Bull. You want everything in the first iteration, don't you? You'll remember that early missiles were not terribly mobile. Get the tech working and then get it mobile because even if it isn't mobile, if it can be broken down and assembled that far a distance from the enemy, it'd still turn everything on its head. I'd be happy with a 100 or 150 mile gun weighing 30 or 40 tons. Wouldn't you?

tandav wrote:Yeah! Wake me up when someone comes up with suitably mobile intercontinental howitzer. Gerald Bull (inventor of the GC45) tried building a supergun and that though an impressive science experiment was not a tactically deployable weapon. Saddam Hussain had the gun built and one example was destroyed in desert storm 1 in 1993. Interestingly Gerald Bull also worked for the PRC and I would wager that PRC is more likely to have better long ranged artillery than USA and indeed India.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Bull

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 27 Dec 2019 07:51

A10? Far better to get a few Su34, they'll do much more than mud moving.
Last edited by Cain Marko on 27 Dec 2019 09:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 27 Dec 2019 08:32

What exactly can a Su-34 do that the MKI cannot? As if we don’t already have enough variety of types.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cybaru » 27 Dec 2019 09:06

Kartik wrote:What exactly can a Su-34 do that the MKI cannot? As if we don’t already have enough variety of types.


Dead ON! All these calls for another SU type defy supply chain logistics.

There is no need for another bomber type. IA is getting pretty decent arty for owning the first 100 KMs of the battlefield. There are other assets for everything else.

Rudra / LCH are plenty good for keeping things in check.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 27 Dec 2019 09:19

Kartik wrote:What exactly can a Su-34 do that the MKI cannot? As if we don’t already have enough variety of types.

2 tons more payload.
4 tons extra internal fuel
Titanium bucket cockpit
Terrain following radar.

Btw It was in reference to A10 fantasy exhibited here. not as a comparison to mki. Note that it will have much more commonality with mki too.
Last edited by Cain Marko on 27 Dec 2019 09:25, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 27 Dec 2019 09:21

Cybaru wrote:
Kartik wrote:What exactly can a Su-34 do that the MKI cannot? As if we don’t already have enough variety of types.


Dead ON! All these calls for another SU type defy supply chain logistics.

There is no need for another bomber type. IA is getting pretty decent arty for owning the first 100 KMs of the battlefield. There are other assets for everything else.

Rudra / LCH are plenty good for keeping things in check.

Supply chain of 34 will have a lot in common with mki. They're both flanker family afterall. From weapons to engines.
Last edited by Cain Marko on 27 Dec 2019 09:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby vishvak » 27 Dec 2019 09:21

If radar of su 30 mki is to be upgraded with hybrid characteristics, how will it work as well as PESA radar it already has, with active RADAR part going on and off in hybrid feashion. In hybrid blinking RADAR types that are detected once, either you see the active part of RADAR or you determine the signature signal, isn't it.
Last edited by vishvak on 27 Dec 2019 09:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srin » 27 Dec 2019 09:32

Why is there a confusion between Close Air Support and Strike roles ?
Close Air Support requires striking enemy ground forces that are very close to the friendly ground forces, and helping the ground forces. Best done by low and slow aircrafts with plenty of loitering capability. A-10, Su 25 were the cold war era warriors, but now wholly taken over by attack helicopters. Though I keep reading about the light attack aircraft like Textron Scorpion, not sure how good they will be in actual combat. Sure, the Khan used F18s and F16s and proposes to use F35 for it, but I don't think it'll compensate.
Strike aircraft are to interdict and strike enemy tactical and strategic targets sometimes deep within enemy territory. Low and fast to go below the radar horizon. Jaguars and mig27 and Su34 are IMO the dedicated strikers. But mostly taken over by multi role aircraft.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 27 Dec 2019 10:46

Don't CAS aircraft come into the picture once the Strike aircraft have achieved SEAD/DEAD?

Even King khan sends in the A10s once their other assets (including F35/Apaches) have destroyed the opposing AADs. Suspect it might be the same for the russians.. the Su30/34/24s destroy the enemy AAD and only then the frogfoots/hinds/hokums rain hell over the naked infantry/mech/armor.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 27 Dec 2019 11:28

Cain Marko wrote:
Kartik wrote:What exactly can a Su-34 do that the MKI cannot? As if we don’t already have enough variety of types.

2 tons more payload.
4 tons extra internal fuel
Titanium bucket cockpit
Terrain following radar.

Btw It was in reference to A10 fantasy exhibited here. not as a comparison to mki. Note that it will have much more commonality with mki too.


None of which add any value over what the MKI already can carry. Last heard, no pilot or armchair general was complaining about the MKI's lack of range or payload, especially if the theater of action is to be within the sub-continent.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 27 Dec 2019 12:26

Kartik wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:2 tons more payload.
4 tons extra internal fuel
Titanium bucket cockpit
Terrain following radar.

Btw It was in reference to A10 fantasy exhibited here. not as a comparison to mki. Note that it will have much more commonality with mki too.


None of which add any value over what the MKI already can carry. Last heard, no pilot or armchair general was complaining about the MKI's lack of range or payload, especially if the theater of action is to be within the sub-continent.

Nobody was complaining about the performance of the.mirage 2000 either but it didn't take long for the iaf to make the mki it's poster child. Capability is capability, the more you have, the better it is.

In any case, my point was not mki vs su34 but rather it's preference over the a10 as a mig27 replacement.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 27 Dec 2019 12:45

That argument won't fly. the Su-34 is not more capable in any way than the MKI. In fact it is a fighter-bomber with much more limited agility when compared to the MKI. And with 270 of these heavy and truly multi-role fighters, there is absolutely no justification for a dedicated single role fighter-bomber like the Su-34, even if there is some commonality between the types.

the IAF needs a medium multirole fighter that can dominate the PAF current and future types and also be able to conduct stand-off precision strikes. That is the need as such there is no need for a MiG-27 replacement. The MiG-27 was already falling far behind in terms of its employability given the types of weapons it employed. The Jaguar is definitely more versatile and that is why the IAF will continue to use it for another 10-15 years.

LCA Mk1A is far more relevant in the current scenario and MWF even more so. Those are the jets to replace the MiG-27.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 27 Dec 2019 15:05

Kartik wrote:That argument won't fly. the Su-34 is not more capable in any way than the MKI.

Sure boss whatever you say, it only flies longer and carries much more because of its inferiority.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 27 Dec 2019 20:22

Guys, as Kartik said, I was joking about the A-10.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 27 Dec 2019 21:23

Cain Marko wrote:2 tons more payload.
4 tons extra internal fuel
Titanium bucket cockpit
Terrain following radar.

Btw It was in reference to A10 fantasy exhibited here. not as a comparison to mki. Note that it will have much more commonality with mki too.


The cockpit adds more weight and arguably you might want to debate adding more defensive aids for that trade-off.
TFR is no big deal. A mode can be added to most ESA radars.

Su-30 MKI has 9640 kg internal fuel. The Su-34 has 12,100 kg. That's approx 2700 kg not 4000 kg.
However, also consider: Empty weight is 18,400 kg. The Su-34s is 22,500 kg, 4000 kg heavier.
Both carry similar rated engines.
The drag on the Su-34 is considerably higher if you look at its profile.

The point is it needs the extra fuel, via both internal tanks and additional DT to provide it long legs and its extra weight, aero trade-offs for that crew comfort, come at a significant price of aero performance (the Su-34's acceleration, top speed, maneuverability all drop).

I'd rather work on adding wet wings to the Su-30 MKI design, better powerplants, redesign/upgrade the structure to be even lighter, new avionics, ECM. Not add a completely new aircraft to the IAF for limited gains. Literally all the munitions that can be carried by the Su-34 can be carried by the Su-30 MKI.

You can think of getting Su-34s if the Russians work with you on making an EW variant. That's where that crew's extra room, freedom of action will count as versus operating expensive EW from a cramped cockpit.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby VKumar » 27 Dec 2019 21:42

Nihat wrote:
LakshmanPST wrote:
What will be the aircraft for Ground Attack role in IAF now...?



MKI and upgraded jaguars


Apache, Rudra ...

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Avinandan » 27 Dec 2019 22:44

Rakesh wrote:MiG-27 (Serial # TU-622) during her retirement ceremony today....

What is the advantage of having a bigger fuselage extension , almost like a dorsal fin ?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rahul M » 27 Dec 2019 23:33

Kartik wrote:That argument won't fly. the Su-34 is not more capable in any way than the MKI.

Hah ! The Platypus has a toilet on board, beat that ! :)


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