Karan M wrote:
What the Raven is seeking to develop, was already deployed on the Su-30 and especially the Su-35 quite sometime back.
What the Raven brings to the table is a whole host of Western and Israeli missiles and PGM to the table from AAMRAAMs to the Meteor to SCALP/Storm Shadow, Asraam, Python 5 and India can also negotiate to integrate Astra, NGARM (when ready), Brahmos and Nirbhay or it's successor. Yes the Irbis E claims a scan angle of 120 degrees vs 100 degrees for the Raven. What Irbis E does is lock India into the Russian weapons system in perpetuity, no other choice e.g. you want a long range AAM, have to ask the Russians for the RVV-BD. Integrate the Raven and you can get the Meteor, AMRAAM 120d if the US will sell that variant or the Astra 2 when ready.
Again, incorrect. The scan angle matters a ton for BVR combat. Did you even see the image I posted? The radar merely provides targeting information. The weapons can be guided in via dedicated datalinks unique to the specific AAM. Do you think the Bars locked in India to Russian weapons for all perpetuity? How do you think its guiding in Astra and how exactly is the IAF planning to integrate ASRAAM which too has a radar cued mode if Russian radars can't provide targeting information to non Russian weapons?
Weapons are NOT = radar availability unless the missile is datalinked via the radar itself. MBDA makes the weapons. US manufacturers make them. Just because you buy a European radar, let alone the fact no NATO supplier will easily countenance handing over a radar set to a Russian manufacturer to integrate, without significant political support and then you will suddenly convince the Americans to hand over AMRAAM - not merely any AMRAAM mind, but AIM-120D. India dropped the idea of taking the Brit SHAR upgrade because the AAMs were AMRAAMs and they were not available to India. We then went with the Israelis who gave us the radar and missile both, but with limitations.
You claim on the one hand the IAF went to trouble to integrate kit onto the Su-30, and then you want non standard items, which don't even exist, namely a Su-30 sized AESA, to be developed, integrated - political, business clearances all be managed somehow, never mind the blacklist, and then weapons will appear along with them. This from a commercial manufacturer, not the DRDO/BEL who just jump at what the IAF wants. Who funds this? Does SAAB own Leonardo?
The same weapons which BTW are sought to be marketed as exclusive to the fighters, so as to give them a competitive edge in the Indian competition, and make them superior to the existing IAF fleet would then be added automatically to this deal. Instead why can't India add them individually as it already can? Do you think we need to buy the CAPTOR-E to think of adding ASRAAM to the Su-30s even today? How do you think that's happening?
And do you seriously think adding a radar this to a fighter is going to be easy and doable in the timeframe envisaged? The EMI/EMC issues, getting the power envelope fixed, and to solve them you want to hand over all the data to an European OEM which also sells all these items worldwide including to Pak? Would the IAF agree?
Here, India is thinking of taking a proven high power FCR which was developed specifically for the Flanker and combining it with its own avionics, or even an upgraded variant of the high power radar the MKI already has, which in most performance parameters matches AESA sets available, but instead we should run after a complex piece of kit which is unique to a platform which is competing for the same piece of the pie, but the associated weapons won't even be guaranteed. How does that figure, exactly?
India has the Astra already, has an Astra Mk2 headed to trials, a SFDR in development, how does purchasing a mere radar give us access to equivalent weapons from the US like the AMRAAM D version, when the radar is European and the weapons are not even integrated on the Gripen?
May be a PESA but those scan angles speak for themselves as does the demonstrated performance, so much so the Russian AF went slow on its Su-57s.
Lol!! The Russians went slow on the SU-57 because they have no money for further development and the current engines they have, the Al-41, the same engine used on the SU-35 (a derivative of the AL-31FP) does not enable the SU-57 to achieve it's design performance numbers. And that is why India for once when it concerns the Russians has been smart and said that the SU-57 will be an off the shelf purchase when it is a mature design and inducted in numbers in the Russian Air Force.
Yes LOL at your inability to deal with the facts as they are. Do you seriously think the engines are all that define the Su-57? That its airframe, its avionics are irrelevant?
The engine on the Su-57 is not the one used on the Su-35. They field the Item 30. https://www.defenseworld.net/news/25968 ... ful_Engine
The Su-35 engine is the Item 117 which was used to proof test the prototypes and take the program forward. Forget the Item 30, a further variant is planned for the Su-57.
Even as it stands, according to the Russian test pilots, the Su-57 is ahead of the baseline Flanker in kinematics (and why wouldn't it be!), has a much reduced signature and a functional AESA radar and integrated avionics set up which matches whatever the Flanker has, and surpasses it even. But the question the Russians have is this, does it, for the cost, offer them such a generational leap ahead of the latest Flanker so as to move en masse to it, when they can at lower cost add long range capabilities to their Flanker and hence make the airframe more survivable?
The so called kinematics of a new engine are just one small piece of what a Su-57 can offer, but with new LR AAMs, ASMs entering service and a new EW suite plus the Irbis-E, the Su-35 has got a good rework. The Irbis-E is one of the most powerful aircraft radars in existence and likely outperforms the vast majority of worldwide fighter radars bar the similarly sized ones on US F-15s.
Fact is IAF ditched the Su-57 because it had no funds to go for both the Rafale and the Su-57. And it took whatever was already mature and available off the production line asap. But the Su-57 will come, and its very likely we may still end up purchasing the platform.
True as far as the E variant is concerned. And that is why I think the better option is to use the Raven radar and other avionics from Leonardo. Can you imagine the SU-30 with it's payload capacity carrying Amraams, Meteors, Scalp, Astras. It will be a one of kind. That will make the Indian SU-30MKI equivalent to the Israeli F-15 Baz in terms of diverse weapon/sensor integration.
Why does India need the Leonardo radar to make it equivalent to the Baaz when, as things stand we are integrating:
NGARM, SAAW, LRGB, ODL and will also likely integrate the Rudra ASMs
When we have already integrated:
Astra, Spice, Griffin, Brahmos, TBB, Litening 4I, SAR pods
When it already comes with:
KAB-500/1500, Kh-59ME, Kh-29 L/TE, OFAB units apart from R77/R27/R73E
Kindly go back and look at the HAL proposal and understand what they are proposing! Our Su-30s will soon enough exceed the Baaz in weapons diversity with or without any Leonardo, without any comprehensive MLU either as the airframes are anyhow being constantly upgraded.
if Uttam itself is not ready for prime time on the Tejas how many years will it be before the son of Uttam is ready for the SU-30?
Uttam is due for testing and completion in 2 years time. We can very well use a Bars variant or Irbis for the first batch upgrade and then transition to an Uttam variant.
An off the shelf and/or close to maturity radar such as the Raven AESA with the weapons integration capability that it brings will increase the potency of the SU-30 fleet by a factor of who knows how much. It will reduce the pressure on the squadron numbers issue as well.
There is no given the Raven is available, a Su-30 variant will be developed easily (without significant political pressure and incredibly expensive funding) and then come the integration hassles.
About the only thing a well developed AESA can claim is a wider bandwidth performance, better ECCM and ability to generate complex LPI waveforms (but digital RWRs are also becoming common). But is all this even available for an export variant Raven? Will it even make a tactical difference?
How are we not better off putting all that money in Uttam and speeding up its tests when its expressly designed to have those features.