Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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Kartik
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 03 Jul 2020 05:04

nachiket wrote:
VikramS wrote:3. War Time Equipment Transfer: Precedence There is a lot of precedence for this. From the US led Lend-Lease program in WW-II, to the transfer of Jordanian F-104s to PAF 1971, this is nothing new.

Would help to do some basic research. PAF had been flying F-104's for ten years by the time of the 1971 war. It's no different than India buying some extra Mig-29's or Su-30's during an emergency. Buying additional stocks of existing weapons is a whole lot different than buying an entirely new complex weapon system that you want to be magically operational and combat ready in a few weeks.

On the other hand, look at how little we used the Mig-21's in the 1965 war. They had entered service in 1963, 2 years prior. Contrast that with their extensive use in 1971 when the IAF was fully ready to employ them to their full potential. They made practically no difference in 1965 vs their impact in 1971. I hope everyone here asking for "X" weapon system to be quickly deployed in Ladakh understands this. It is really not that hard.


As things stand - even these 33 fighters are not going to enter IAF service anytime soon. Given that the 21 MiG-29s are likely SMTs and can be upgraded with kits by BRD that already has upgraded ~60 of them, they'll hopefully be in service within a year.

The 12 Su-30MKIs will be built at HAL Nashik, and I'm hoping that there is no discontinuity in the production line, so that their assembly can start as soon as the last currently contracted HAL built Su-30MKI rolls out.

The Rafale squadron will need some time at least before they are combat ready. Of course, if the balloon does go up, they will be put into combat duty, but they need some time for SOPs, tactics, maintenance procedures, etc. to be set up. The first batch of IAF Rafale pilots will have had fewer than a 100 hours each on the jet, so they'll need more time on the jets to make a full impact.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 03 Jul 2020 05:18

The thing that is confusing people is that the release says that the $992 million includes work for upgrading existing MiG-29UPGs. Actually what's happening is that they have added the 21 MiG-29s to the EXISTING MiG-29UPG contract, in order to expedite it. Since it is counted as a modification to an existing contract, it'll go through faster compared to a new contract.

I doubt there's any new work to be done on the already upgraded UPGs. The money is for the 21 that are to be bought along with the kits to convert them to UPGs.

This is the most prudent approach. There was no way that 1 squadron worth of ANY other fighters could have been added faster to the IAF's fleet, and these MiG-29UPGs are pretty damn good. With Astra integration, they'll be a real handful in BVR combat.

I still am desperately hoping that 36 to 44 more Rafales are ordered and then all money and efforts can be focused on getting the Tejas Mk1A and Mk2 into service within the timelines scheduled. Grp Cpt HVT mentioned on Twitter that penalties will be paid by HAL if schedules are missed, which is probably a new aspect to contracts as far as HAL is concerned.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby MeshaVishwas » 03 Jul 2020 08:36

To clarify:
- HAL mission computers for ALL MiG-29s
- 21 "new" MiG-29s upgraded in Russia, existing lot in Nasik.
- Su-30MKI price includes a great deal of additional equipment and mods to sort longstanding fleetwide issues
- Astra-capable fighters now: Su-30MKI, MiG-29UPG/K/KUB

https://twitter.com/zone5aviation/statu ... 17088?s=19

Nearly all IAF fighters will be Astra-capable in fairly short order – HAL mission computer is key to this, and is going most new/upgraded jets. Flanker, Fulcrum, Tejas (+variants), Mirage 2000...

https://twitter.com/zone5aviation/statu ... 83650?s=19

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 03 Jul 2020 09:40

The upgrade costs for the 64 or 67 MIG-29s was pegged at just under $1B,when compared with $2.5 B for the 50+ M2Ks, around only $12+M compared to $50M respectively. This is a very cost-effective way to upgrade the entire fleet and add a new sqd. of unused aircraft which were mothballed. Astra has already been earmarked for almost the entire IAF fleet and the 12 additional MKIs would arrive within 12 months as that is the annual prod. rate by Nasik. Given the v.high costs of the Rafale,3 times that of a 29, acquiring a couple more sqds. would be v.prudent,even upto MIG-35 std. There is no other more cost-effective twin-engined fighter of comparative capability available,even the LCA Mk-1 costs more. But these extra MIGs are interim knee-jerk remedies to plug gaps in numbers to counter a Sino- Pak JV. The AMCA must be given top prioroty over the LCA Mk-2,TEDBF,etc. in the long run. We must plan for the future medium fighter replacement requirement with a desi bird. Fielding only a 4th-gen fighter post- 2030 in the era of 5th-gen aircraft with 6th- gen aircraft under development or even at the prototype stage,would be akin to reinventing a vintage wheel. Further acceleration of the LCA Mk-1A production is required to field vs Pak maintaining our numerical and qualitative superiority, while ,relieving some heavier TE fighters for the Chinese theatre.

Media reports say that it will take 2 to 3 years to deliver and Nasik still has MKI deliveries to complete of existing orders.Furthermore,31K cr of the 39K cr cost will be indigenous content,a v.high %, so those imagining a lot of boodle flowing out of India to those demmed Russkies can sleep happier!

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby rpartha » 03 Jul 2020 11:12

Why do we need to go for more Migs and Su 30s? How much of air to air combat we will be seeing in the high altitude regions of China border? We need more air to ground or CAPs in which Su doesnt seem to be doing great compared to Mirages.. So would assume Mirages/Rafales would have been good. Anyway we have one too many Su 30s with us.. it helps HAL to keep running the production but apart from that not sure.. we need precision ground strikes right? Esp in high altitude and mountain regions...

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 03 Jul 2020 12:58

rpartha wrote:Why do we need to go for more Migs and Su 30s? How much of air to air combat we will be seeing in the high altitude regions of China border? We need more air to ground or CAPs in which Su doesnt seem to be doing great compared to Mirages.. So would assume Mirages/Rafales would have been good. Anyway we have one too many Su 30s with us.. it helps HAL to keep running the production but apart from that not sure.. we need precision ground strikes right? Esp in high altitude and mountain regions...


Please don't post such posts without adequate research. Su-30 is every bit as capable as Mirage in many respects in terms of A2A and A2G, and even better in some areas. Different a/c types complement each other.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby rpartha » 03 Jul 2020 13:36

Karan M wrote:
rpartha wrote:Why do we need to go for more Migs and Su 30s? How much of air to air combat we will be seeing in the high altitude regions of China border? We need more air to ground or CAPs in which Su doesnt seem to be doing great compared to Mirages.. So would assume Mirages/Rafales would have been good. Anyway we have one too many Su 30s with us.. it helps HAL to keep running the production but apart from that not sure.. we need precision ground strikes right? Esp in high altitude and mountain regions...


Please don't post such posts without adequate research. Su-30 is every bit as capable as Mirage in many respects in terms of A2A and A2G, and even better in some areas. Different a/c types complement each other.


I did... I know Su 30 can be used for A2G but IAF weapon of choice seems to be Mirage. So why we cant get them their weapon of choice more.. I know being professional Army they will use whatever they have and I am also sure that MoD would have taken IAF inpyt before ordering too... but given mountain terrain/high altitude - precision strikes and fact we have only about 40 to 50 Mirages in hand - why we are not looking for more these types instead of Su30s. Am I missing something?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 03 Jul 2020 14:00

rpartha wrote:
Karan M wrote:
Please don't post such posts without adequate research. Su-30 is every bit as capable as Mirage in many respects in terms of A2A and A2G, and even better in some areas. Different a/c types complement each other.


I did... I know Su 30 can be used for A2G but IAF weapon of choice seems to be Mirage. So why we cant get them their weapon of choice more.. I know being professional Army they will use whatever they have and I am also sure that MoD would have taken IAF inpyt before ordering too... but given mountain terrain/high altitude - precision strikes and fact we have only about 40 to 50 Mirages in hand - why we are not looking for more these types instead of Su30s. Am I missing something?


Not really, IAF Su30 gave top cover so the Paki F16's didnt interfere with our Mirage raid, both have their purpose. We need different kind of aircraft. Next day why did PAF fire 5 Amraams at the Su-30- the only airforce in world to have 5 continuous misses with an AMRAAM with numbers advanatge. Cause thats what they are most scared off.

in the Gulf war 1991 - it was the F117 did the first strike not a F15E. Israel also used F16's to attack the Iraqi reactor and many raids in Syria- that does not mean both Airforces think thier F15's are useless and trying to upgrade them. A little bit of research would have got more sensible comments.

And Rafale is the next evolution of the M-2000. IAF has ordered it.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby idan » 03 Jul 2020 14:23

Instead of wasting money on botched Jaguar upgrade and old Mig 29 airframes, we should have gone for more Rafales

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 03 Jul 2020 14:41

idan wrote:Instead of wasting money on botched Jaguar upgrade and old Mig 29 airframes, we should have gone for more Rafales


Mig29 buy is probably the most sensible thing IAF has done in a while.

They have come down their high horse of "there is no Plan B to buying Rafale at 180M each" to oh.. we can buy 4 Mig29 Upgraded with Astra, with already trained pilots, with already existing infra..

Now only if they come to senses to order more LCA FOC...

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 03 Jul 2020 15:32

rpartha wrote:
Karan M wrote:
Please don't post such posts without adequate research. Su-30 is every bit as capable as Mirage in many respects in terms of A2A and A2G, and even better in some areas. Different a/c types complement each other.


I did... I know Su 30 can be used for A2G but IAF weapon of choice seems to be Mirage. So why we cant get them their weapon of choice more.. I know being professional Army they will use whatever they have and I am also sure that MoD would have taken IAF inpyt before ordering too... but given mountain terrain/high altitude - precision strikes and fact we have only about 40 to 50 Mirages in hand - why we are not looking for more these types instead of Su30s. Am I missing something?


Again, why are you not doing some basic research? The Su-30s have weapon sets which are as capable as that of the Mirage 2000s and better in some respects. Please look up what weapons each aircraft carries to get an idea.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby rpartha » 03 Jul 2020 15:50

Karan M wrote:
rpartha wrote:
I did... I know Su 30 can be used for A2G but IAF weapon of choice seems to be Mirage. So why we cant get them their weapon of choice more.. I know being professional Army they will use whatever they have and I am also sure that MoD would have taken IAF inpyt before ordering too... but given mountain terrain/high altitude - precision strikes and fact we have only about 40 to 50 Mirages in hand - why we are not looking for more these types instead of Su30s. Am I missing something?


Again, why are you not doing some basic research? The Su-30s have weapon sets which are as capable as that of the Mirage 2000s and better in some respects. Please look up what weapons each aircraft carries to get an idea.


I agree but I respectfully disagree with u sir... IAF is going with horses for courses when it comes to Mirage and SU-30 MKI... but dont want to keep arguing here... Thanks...

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 03 Jul 2020 17:26

Aditya_V wrote:...in the Gulf war 1991 - it was the F117 did the first strike not a F15E..

Aditya ji, actually it was the AH64 Apaches guided in by the MH-53J Pave Lows, constituting Task Force Normandy, which fired the first shots (Hellfire, rockets and 30mm) in Desert Storm, knocking out two Iraqi radar stations, located about 70 miles apart. The EF-111A Raven aircraft and F-117A Nighthawk stealth fighters then went in through the opened corridor, with the F117A dropping the first bomb on Baghdad..

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 03 Jul 2020 17:54

So does not mean US gave up F15 and only bought Apache's- that was the logic being peddled.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 03 Jul 2020 20:02

Yes sir, I had understood the point you were trying to make. What works(ed) for the great and mighty US there & at that time, need not work for us, here and now. Best to trust the professionals to judge which are the right tools for the various jobs. The powers-that-be need to ensure they have a good selection to choose from, and in the required quantity.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 03 Jul 2020 20:23

Manish_P wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:...in the Gulf war 1991 - it was the F117 did the first strike not a F15E..

Aditya ji, actually it was the AH64 Apaches guided in by the MH-53J Pave Lows, constituting Task Force Normandy, which fired the first shots (Hellfire, rockets and 30mm) in Desert Storm, knocking out two Iraqi radar stations, located about 70 miles apart. The EF-111A Raven aircraft and F-117A Nighthawk stealth fighters then went in through the opened corridor, with the F117A dropping the first bomb on Baghdad..


Replied: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7088&p=2445668#p2445668

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 03 Jul 2020 21:31

Let's remember ( at the risk of censure from Adm.Rax.) that the only aircraft that can carry BMos- ASM is the MKI,the first BMos sqd. now based at Tanjore to cover the Malacca Straits. Until BMos- NG arrives for key air strikes from stand-off ranges against the Chins in the current scenario, against their command centres,missile batteries,airfields,etc.
Apart from BMos there are several other PGMs ,LGBs,etc. that the MKI can carry in large qty. If as generally expected,the faeces will fly again, we will need a large inventory of such ordnance to hit the multitude of key targets especially in the initial stages of conflict.

Now that the PM has thrown down the gauntlet to shitworm XI, loss of face is impossible for him to stomach,and for the Beijing political elite that squats in Zhongnanhai,their equiv of Lutyens' central Delhi. Thus far XI has behaved like Mao,emitting a huge fart in our face along the Himalayas,occupying some of our territory across the LAC ,waging the surprise butchery at Galwan.
The bravery of our gallant troops notwithstanding in sending them running back in terror ,the Chins must at some point in time be evicted fromother areas of dispute or we must swallow our pride in the sake of " peace", accepting the new situation on the LAC .

No amount of spin-doctoring can alter the facts on the ground.The time for India to change the contours on the ground. We must now " walk the talk",but at the opportune moment. Remember that the vulture is a patient bird.After the PM's tough talk we can expect further devilry from XI. The gauntlet has been thrown down,the gloves are off, we are displaying the iron fist of India. Our goal must be to ensure Maximum casualties on the Chinese side. This is the only way to teach them a lesson,catastrophic military casualties ,more important than a few metres of rock and snow.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby suryag » 04 Jul 2020 04:15

Philip Sir, notwithstanding my dislike for your love of Russian maal and constant peddling of their wares have been a big fan of yours when you take the enemy to the cleaners with words. Keep it coming Sir

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ks_sachin » 04 Jul 2020 06:47

Suryag

I wish I could share your sentiments...

I was going to suggest that you put a 100 word limit on the Admiral's posts.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby basant » 04 Jul 2020 09:40

ks_sachin wrote:I was going to suggest that you put a 100 word limit on the Admiral's posts.

On Adm. Rakesh? :shock:

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 04 Jul 2020 10:54

Admiral Filipov :lol:

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby basant » 04 Jul 2020 11:25

Rakesh wrote:Admiral Filipov :lol:

:rotfl:
Have a nice day Adm. Rakesh :D

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby MeshaVishwas » 04 Jul 2020 16:39

New fighters for the IAF: Answers and more questions-Angad Singh
https://www.orfonline.org/expert-speak/ ... 69118/?amp
04 July 2020

It might therefore be the most viable course of action, particularly in these times of economic uncertainty, to apply the lessons made clear by this most recent set of DAC approvals. The Mirage 2000 is widely seen as the ‘tip of the spear’ for the IAF, yet remains restricted to only three operational squadrons in service. Adding more of these aircraft from wherever they are available in the world should not be too difficult, particularly since HAL is already capable of overhauling and upgrading the jets domestically. Brazil’s Mirages are already off the market, but Qatar and Taiwan are in the middle of their own force recapitalisations and could make the equivalent of a squadron or two worth of fighters available, as could France. The Rafale is another obvious choice, with the IAF having already paid for infrastructure to support more than the 36 aircraft it has on order. Although it is far from the low-cost MiG-29UPG option, an additional squadron or two of Rafales would be unburdened by the fixed costs of the initial 2016 contract, and therefore considerably cheaper. And finally, there is the domestic Tejas, which could see a production gap between the last LCA Mk.1 deliveries and the first LCA Mk.1As. Although the plan at present is to plug that gap with production of 14 LCA trainers, should the Mk.1A schedule slip to the right it would make sense to keep the production line active with another squadron’s worth of aircraft.

A massive $15-20 billion fighter commitment at this late stage, with the IAF’s recapitalisation already struggling against headwinds makes little sense when quicker, cheaper options are on the table with little punitive effect on existing domestic projects.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby MeshaVishwas » 04 Jul 2020 16:48

Very solid views, I do not like the MMRCA V2.0 as well,focus should be singularly on Tejas and Super Tejas and more importantly fund the program well. If the latter(Super Tejas) is delayed, we can offset by getting more Tejas and bide time.

HAL has said they can ramp up production to 20 units, let us help them put their money where their mouth is.

I am also sincerely happy with the Navy for their unwavering faith in Desi programs and this order for Astra is another feather in their cap for the vision they have.

No 30 tests spread over a decade followed by LSP this SP that, RFP this RFI that....just ordered the missiles in the first go.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 04 Jul 2020 17:10

This IAf fighter strength is always a mystery and it is clearly lesser than what it should be.

My guess would be

1. Mig 21 Bison 5 squadrons - ~115 aircraft
2. Other Mig 21BIS for type training?
3. Jaguars Darin I/II/II and Jaguar IM - 6 squadrons ~110 aircraft
4. Mirage 2000 - 3 squadrons - ~47 aircraft
5. Mig 29- 3 squadrons - ~ 61 aircraft
6. Su- 30 MKI - 13 squadrons - ~261 aircraft
7. LCA Tejas - 1 squadron - ~ 16 aircraft, lets ignore 2 fighters of Tejas FOC

That the present strength should be 31 squadrons with aprrox 610 fighter aircraft plus a few like Tejas trainers, Mig 21 Bis type trainers.Plus historically the Navy did not have around 40 fighters
By 2025 we will retire

3 Squadrons of Jaguar IS and Jaguar IM
I think Mig 21 Bisons will start retiring from 2025 onwards.
We should be adding
1 squadron Mig 29, 2 squadron Rafale, 12 Su 30 MKI replacement for attrition, 1 Tejas FOC, 1 Tejas Mk1A atleast.

So by 2025 the IAF strength should be

1. Mig 21 Bison -5 squadrons -105 aircraft after crashes
2. Jaguars Darin III - 3 squadrons - ~ aircraft
3.Mirage 2000- 3 squadrons -~43 aircraft
4. Mig 29 - 4 squadrons - ~80 aircraft
5- Su 30 MKI- 14 squadrons - ~268 aircraft
6. Tejas IOC, FOC, MK1A- 3 squadrons ~ 60-65 aircraft
7. Rafale 2 squadrons - ~35 aircraft.

So IAF will be 34 squadrons by 2025 when the Mig 21 Bison start retiring, question is what additional orders for rafale, LCA variants we can cover by 2022-23 to cover this.
42 squadrons-55 squadrons would be ideal but can't be covered by large scale imports - it requires additional LCA FOC 1, NP variants, Tejas Mk1A orders, then MWF, TEDBF, AMCA etc.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby sankum » 04 Jul 2020 17:27

Mig 21 bison will all be retired by 2025. (0sq)
Jaguar 56 Darin 3 IS + 14 Darin 2 Trainers=70(4sq)
Tejas mk1/a = 80 (4sq)
Total 31 sq

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby basant » 04 Jul 2020 18:43

^^^
So from above data it appears that instead of replacing Mig 21Bis with Tejas we are replacing them with Mig 29UPGs and Rafales. ;). Unless 83 Mk1A order moves from imminent to accomplished, of course.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 04 Jul 2020 18:50

MeshaVishwas wrote:New fighters for the IAF: Answers and more questions-Angad Singh
https://www.orfonline.org/expert-speak/ ... 69118/?amp
04 July 2020

Apart from getting No 9 Sqn to full strength, is it wise to invest meagre CAPEX into additional Mirage 2000 squadrons?

And rather than wait for Mk1A to arrive, can they not just continue production of the Mk1? They can upgrade them to the Mk1A standard later. Why talk of inducting any other plane....when you have two Tejas production lines in India and a third one in the works.

The Mk1 is better than the MiG-21 Bison, better than the un-upgraded Mirage 2000 and as per HVT Sir, she is better even than the Jaguar. Sanction the 83 order as Mk1s and upgrade them latter. Also order another 2 more units at minimum.

Two additional Rafale squadrons, MMRCA, etc can all come later. Tejas can be delivered now. MMRCA will come when?

Even the 21 MiG-29s ordered are coming only by 2022. Tejas can be delivered now. Phoren fighters will come when?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby abhik » 04 Jul 2020 21:15

Maybe I'm dhoti shibbring but I don't think that the "sensible" option of ordering Mk1As, followup 2 squadrons of Rafales plus MKIs is going to be enough now. Unless we capitulate completely to the Chinese OR completely destroy the Chinese military threat (2 extreme outcomes) in the next few months we will have to massively ramp up our defence expenditure. Till now the Chinese have been able to do salami slicing operations with minimal investment - mostly on connectivity infrastructure, their airforce fighter presence for example was relatively pathetic. With the way things have turned out we can expect the "eye of Sauron" to be turned towards us, with a 250B USD defence spend (and rising) plus huge MIC, going back to Khumbakaran sleep like we do is not an option.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby MeshaVishwas » 04 Jul 2020 22:35

OT:
Saar, the low defence spending is something we are going to have to live with for a decade at least.
So optimization is key.CDS charter can be further refined to help toward this as the CDS' comments before were very clear.

Then a spanner was thrown in the works by the Chiefs of all services and a lot of "Why it can't be done", "Why it is not in the best interests" articles came out.
(I also want this lateral entry thing rolled out for the DMA/MoD en masse to deal with our infamous bureaucracy but I digress...)

Re Cheen,Salami slicing model got buried in the icy waters of the Galwan last month.
We will continue to have an uneasy status quo up North.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Prem Kumar » 04 Jul 2020 22:42

Why is MMRCA rearing its ugly head again? Didn't the CDS recently say that we don't need the MMRCA because the Tejas variants will do the job?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby basant » 04 Jul 2020 22:57

Prem Kumar wrote:Why is MMRCA rearing its ugly head again? Didn't the CDS recently say that we don't need the MMRCA because the Tejas variants will do the job?

IAF chief contradicts CDS Rawat, says plan is to buy 114 foreign fighters besides LCA Tejas

Before being tempted to speak against the CAS, remember that he was 'Chief Test Pilot and Project Director of National Flight Test Centre on the Tejas LCA project'.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Mort Walker » 04 Jul 2020 22:59

Rakesh wrote:Apart from getting No 9 Sqn to full strength, is it wise to invest meagre CAPEX into additional Mirage 2000 squadrons?

You bring up a good point. Permission was given at the cabinet level and the MoD went shopping with all of the foreign lobbying.

Rakesh wrote:And rather than wait for Mk1A to arrive, can they not just continue production of the Mk1? They can upgrade them to the Mk1A standard later. Why talk of inducting any other plane....when you have two Tejas production lines in India and a third one in the works.

The Mk1 is better than the MiG-21 Bison, better than the un-upgraded Mirage 2000 and as per HVT Sir, she is better even than the Jaguar. Sanction the 83 order as Mk1s and upgrade them latter. Also order another 2 more units at minimum.

Investment into aerospace and defence manufacturing will have to be made. Such as a 20-year tax holiday for those industries and government investment into private companies. The need for this decade is to develop an indigenous industry for the long run.

Rakesh wrote:Two additional Rafale squadrons, MMRCA, etc can all come later. Tejas can be delivered now. MMRCA will come when?

IMHO, an order for 44 more Rafales was needed as another gov-gov purchase. Along with it an order of 200 Tejas Mk1A was needed with an invest of $10 billion by 2023-2025. This should have been wrapped up in the COVID-19 stimulus package.

Rakesh wrote:Even the 21 MiG-29s ordered are coming only by 2022. Tejas can be delivered now. Phoren fighters will come when?

It means the GoI is not serious about investing in the Tejas production. With a huge FOREX surplus and Rupee bouncing back, now is the time to do this.

MeshaVishwas
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby MeshaVishwas » 04 Jul 2020 23:20

Okay time for our silent Han visitors to convey the message to their Secretary (you are entitled to get $0.5 extra for this scoop).


srai
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 04 Jul 2020 23:24

Rakesh wrote:...
And rather than wait for Mk1A to arrive, can they not just continue production of the Mk1? They can upgrade them to the Mk1A standard later. Why talk of inducting any other plane....when you have two Tejas production lines in India and a third one in the works.

The Mk1 is better than the MiG-21 Bison, better than the un-upgraded Mirage 2000 and as per HVT Sir, she is better even than the Jaguar. Start the 83 order as Mk1s and upgrade them latter. Also order another 2 more units at minimum.
...


The IAF is the one that specifies the quantities of a type, while the GoI pays for it.

So far the IAF has limited the LCA to the 20 Mk1 IOC + 20 Mk1 FOC + 83 Mk1A. It does not seem like the IAF is interested in any more Mk1 or Mk1A at this point.

Orders are not sufficient to expand the production capacities beyond the planned 16/year. Requires significantly more orders. HAL is open to partnering with a private company to setup another assembly line. Domestic SP model can occur if desired.

Also, we need to remember that firm orders and contract signing need to occur at least 24-36 months in advance of the first lot deliveries. Given how long 83 Mk1A contract signing is taking, does not look like more Mk1 (or 1A) will occur. Besides, the IAF needs to request more quantities first before the whole “inflexible” 13-step procurement process can even begin.

Another thing to point out is the follow on orders were not for Mk1 FOC, which would have been a more straight forward production process. A low risk. Follow on is for Mk1A, a new variant that still needs to be certified. Risks of delays are there.

Overall outlook for more LCA Mk1/1A look bleak at this point.

idan
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby idan » 05 Jul 2020 00:28

Prem Kumar wrote:Why is MMRCA rearing its ugly head again? Didn't the CDS recently say that we don't need the MMRCA because the Tejas variants will do the job?


CDS cannot take decisions for air force nor impose one. Air Chief has the last say.

pankajs
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby pankajs » 05 Jul 2020 02:29

https://twitter.com/zone5aviation/statu ... 2521489412
Angad Singh @zone5aviation

The recent DAC clearance for more MiG-29UPGs and Su-30MKIs raises some questions about the IAF’s future acquisitions. I explore the CAATSA impact, and argue more top ups of existing fighter types is a viable way to make up the numbers in the near term.

https://www.orfonline.org/expert-speak/ ... ons-69118/
First, these are pragmatic measures to shore up rapidly declining force levels – the upgraded MiG-29s will allow formation of a new squadron at a cost of under $1 billion, and there are few better options at that price. Moreover, the MiG-29UPG variant has impressed the service with vastly improved reliability and capability, and there is sufficient existing infrastructure and trained manpower to quickly absorb and operationalise the additional aircraft. Similarly, the Rs 10,730 crore ($1.43 billion) Su-30MKI deal will account for attrition over the years and almost a third of this amount will be spent on new equipment and modifications that will improve fleetwide capability and resolve long-pending performance issues.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby fanne » 05 Jul 2020 04:23

One sweet deal we can do with the French is this. We will buy additional Rafale (at the original per aircraft cost minus the upgrade and other cost as they have been already paid), if we get M2K free, the French can perhaps upgrade them and charge us the original upgrade fee (or get it done at HAL if they choose). The French maybe very amenable to such an offer. They get to sell more Rafale and make money, load off old m2k (which they will anyways in few years as they get more Rafale) and we get upgraded m2k that are good for another 20-30 years. Perhaps some 30-40 of them will be very good to arrest downward numbers.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Bart S » 05 Jul 2020 04:44

The Mirage upgrade was eye-wateringly expensive. Better to just get more Rafales, and use the Mirage-upgrade funds towards doubling down on LCA variants.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby vimal » 05 Jul 2020 05:38

When the IAF chief is not interested in more than 83 Texas where exactly is the question for additional variants? We are back in the same old circus smh.


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