Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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Cain Marko
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 05 Oct 2020 23:01

nachiket wrote:The success of the MWF is absolutely essential. Otherwise one of two things will happen. Either we will have to break the bank and buy large numbers of expensive 4th gen foreign jets or we will fail to do that (just like with the MMRCA) and end up with yet another severe numbers crunch 10 years down the line.

As a thought, why not persist with the mk1A in large numbers and replace the baaz and vajra with tedbf? A twin engined bird will be easier to get good power ratings and had so much more potential for the future. Kind of an amca lite... Will solve Navy and IAF (mrca) need.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 05 Oct 2020 23:06

Cain Marko wrote:
nachiket wrote:The success of the MWF is absolutely essential. Otherwise one of two things will happen. Either we will have to break the bank and buy large numbers of expensive 4th gen foreign jets or we will fail to do that (just like with the MMRCA) and end up with yet another severe numbers crunch 10 years down the line.

As a thought, why not persist with the mk1A in large numbers and replace the baaz and vajra with tedbf? A twin engined bird will be easier to get good power ratings and had so much more potential for the future. Kind of an amca lite... Will solve Navy and IAF (mrca) need.

TEDBF is a project that will take a lot more time to be ready than the single-engined MWF and that is for the naval version. An AF version of the design will take even more time. Not feasible for the IAF IMHO. Navy can afford to wait because they have enough Mig-29K's for now and the third carrier isn't going to arrive anytime soon.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby M_Joshi » 06 Oct 2020 01:17

nachiket wrote:

^^ Some great footage of IAF hardware in action.


Cross posted from Multimedia thread.

While the ACM is speaking, there are three plane models behind him. Rafale, Tejas & third is AMCA? At 1:04. Why would ACM have a jet that's currently at design stage, strategically placed in AF day video.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby pankajs » 06 Oct 2020 01:18

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 1927767042
IAF is looking at directed energy weapons (DEWS) and swarm drone systems in future: CAS ACM Bhadauria
No news on DEWS in a long time.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 06 Oct 2020 01:34

M_Joshi wrote:While the ACM is speaking, there are three plane models behind him. Rafale, Tejas & third is AMCA? At 1:04. Why would ACM have a jet that's currently at design stage, strategically placed in AF day video.

The three planes you see behind him are Rafale, Tejas and indeed AMCA onlee.

That is the future of the IAF. Glad to see that in the Air Chief's office.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 06 Oct 2020 02:43

nachiket wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:As a thought, why not persist with the mk1A in large numbers and replace the baaz and vajra with tedbf? A twin engined bird will be easier to get good power ratings and had so much more potential for the future. Kind of an amca lite... Will solve Navy and IAF (mrca) need.

TEDBF is a project that will take a lot more time to be ready than the single-engined MWF and that is for the naval version. An AF version of the design will take even more time. Not feasible for the IAF IMHO. Navy can afford to wait because they have enough Mig-29K's for now and the third carrier isn't going to arrive anytime soon.

They'll have plenty of mk1a to fill in the gaps by the time tedbf comes along. Not to mention occasional injections of rafale, 29s etc. India should simply order 300 mk1a and ramp up production on a war footing.

I don't see why it will take longer than 10 odd years, the m4k development would be a great model to follow... Simply a twin engined Tejas. Ideally with kaveris even if they just crank out 7.5kn thrust, not too different from rafale specs.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby pankajs » 06 Oct 2020 10:24

https://twitter.com/YusufDFI/status/1313123936947724293
IAF Chief: AMCA will be the mainstay. 2 squadrons of the AMCA Mark 1 & 5 squadrons of AMCA Mark 2 have been planned. DRDO has given a timeline of five to seven years.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 06 Oct 2020 10:47

pankajs wrote:https://twitter.com/YusufDFI/status/1313123936947724293
IAF Chief: AMCA will be the mainstay. 2 squadrons of the AMCA Mark 1 & 5 squadrons of AMCA Mark 2 have been planned. DRDO has given a timeline of five to seven years.

Not sure how legit that time line is, but i'm guessing they will repackage TEDBF and call it AMCA Mk1

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 06 Oct 2020 11:47

Finally some v.good news,AMCA accelerated prog. which I've been harping about for aeons. If as the ACM says the pvt. sector is taking the lead,great. Let HAL plus pvt. sector churn out LCAs like sausages, with another line by Tatas,L& T whoever,a few hundreds are reqd., and the AMCA in the pvt.secto+ HAL ,with the IAF taking the lead. DEW weapons can progressively be installed.First let the
Mk-1 prove its basic capabilities ,aerodynamics,sensors, stealth factor, basic weaponry, ease of maintainability/ logistic support,etc. before exotica like DEW,UCAV swarm control and other 6th-gen. matter matures.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby manjgu » 06 Oct 2020 18:33

MBDAs mistral integrated on Lch. .luh! !

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 06 Oct 2020 22:34

Cain Marko wrote:
nachiket wrote:TEDBF is a project that will take a lot more time to be ready than the single-engined MWF and that is for the naval version. An AF version of the design will take even more time. Not feasible for the IAF IMHO. Navy can afford to wait because they have enough Mig-29K's for now and the third carrier isn't going to arrive anytime soon.

They'll have plenty of mk1a to fill in the gaps by the time tedbf comes along. Not to mention occasional injections of rafale, 29s etc. India should simply order 300 mk1a and ramp up production on a war footing.

I don't see why it will take longer than 10 odd years, the m4k development would be a great model to follow... Simply a twin engined Tejas. Ideally with kaveris even if they just crank out 7.5kn thrust, not too different from rafale specs.

10 years itself is too long. With the MWF they were looking at first flight in 2023 followed by an accelerated testing schedule made possible because of the commonalities with the Mk1 and Mk1A. This is simply not possible with the TEDBF. And plus you have to look at the price and operational expenses of the resulting fighter. IAF is already top heavy with the 270 MKI and now Rafales joining them, plus the AMCA to follow later. If their needs are met by a single-engined medium weight fighter, then that's what they should get, especially when it is faster and easier to build that based on the Tejas anyway.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 06 Oct 2020 22:41

Cain Marko wrote:I don't see why it will take longer than 10 odd years, the m4k development would be a great model to follow...


Any clean sheet twin engined 4.5 generation naval fighter, or an adaptation of such a fighter for land based operations, is a 12-15 year undertaking to design, develop, test, and have enter into production. Any time-horizon that is shorter than that is likely to introduce a whole bunch of risk and is therefore quite likely to not be met. You can say 2 years, or 5 years if you want, but realistically, getting it short of a dozen years (fully tested and delivered for operational duty) is going to involve quite a bit of risk. The USN took about a decade to field the Super Hornet. This despite the aircraft being a larger Hornet, and based on a lot of design work done decades earlier (Northrop P530) and relaxing some of the initial IOC requirements (like having an AESA radar upon introduction). Full naval testing and certification is a lengthy process (and naval aviators and regulators are some of the most conservative when it comes to test point validation and cert) requiring multiple dev and ops testing detachments across a whole host of naval sea states and operational conditions. This is probably more true if it is the first time that this is being done (which will be the case for the TEDBF). If there are major discoveries (which aren't uncommon even with the most advanced M&S tools) then you can add some more risk to that timeline.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby fanne » 06 Oct 2020 23:55

Tejas IOC/LOC/MK1A do not have the endurance and range as desired by IAF. As Mig 21 replacement, they are good, but what IAF is looking in large numbers (original MMCRA) is a Mirage 2000 like plane - MWF it is then. It will have similar weight and endurance as M2K, but will beat M2K in all departments. LCAMK1A thus can be haven only in limited numbers. Perhaps 83 is where we cap it and go with MWF. When the last of 83 MK1A rolls off the assembly line, MWF will be ready to be produced. If there is any delay with MWF, I am sure IAF will go for more MK1A.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby amitdb » 07 Oct 2020 07:22

M_Joshi wrote:
nachiket wrote:

^^ Some great footage of IAF hardware in action.


Cross posted from Multimedia thread.

While the ACM is speaking, there are three plane models behind him. Rafale, Tejas & third is AMCA? At 1:04. Why would ACM have a jet that's currently at design stage, strategically placed in AF day video.


Guys check the video @ 2:33. (screenshot below)
Image

That clearly seems to be the footage from balakot bombing, the terrain definitely matches up with the satellite imagery of target (check below).

Image

It's not just a picture but a small 2 second clip. I don't think they'll put it in an official IAF video unless it's the real deal. What do you think? Also i don't remember seeing this footage before, so looks to be intentional leak.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Anujan » 07 Oct 2020 08:17

Relevant frames 8)

Image
Image
Image

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby amitdb » 07 Oct 2020 09:17

That flash in the 3rd frame, is that from the explosion?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 07 Oct 2020 10:05

Yes. Spice2K

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby tsarkar » 07 Oct 2020 10:18

The strike took place in the hours of darkness, hence thermal Imaging Infra Red is used. So it’s the heat of the explosion and not the flash.

We used a penetration bomb that penetrates and blasts, so there will be little outside flash but a lot of heat from the explosion that will show up on the thermal image
Last edited by tsarkar on 07 Oct 2020 12:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby amitdb » 07 Oct 2020 10:41

Thanks Sarkar ji for the explaination !

This was indeed very subtle. I don't understand if revealing this video proof was so easy why didn't IAF release it when the naysayers were doubting IAF actions in the immediate aftermath of balakot. I understand that you don't want to give in to the 'do-kaudi-ke-log' because that sets up the precedence for any such future doubting. But then by not releasing out these hard-proofs you also underplay your hand in the perception battle. Anyways, there has been enough chintan-shibir on this topic so let me not bring it back. :D

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetonzz » 07 Oct 2020 11:23

Mig-21 Bison shooting AAM

Image

Image

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 07 Oct 2020 11:55

Interesting part of Balakot video, that looks like taken from LGB pod of M 2000 and not from another spice 2000 or possibly a Drone, then IAF did a really deep penetration on 26-Feb-19 morning.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby k prasad » 07 Oct 2020 12:56

amitdb wrote:Thanks Sarkar ji for the explaination !

This was indeed very subtle. I don't understand if revealing this video proof was so easy why didn't IAF release it when the naysayers were doubting IAF actions in the immediate aftermath of balakot. I understand that you don't want to give in to the 'do-kaudi-ke-log' because that sets up the precedence for any such future doubting. But then by not releasing out these hard-proofs you also underplay your hand in the perception battle. Anyways, there has been enough chintan-shibir on this topic so let me not bring it back. :D


GoI did a lot of subtle messaging with and post-Balakot, both in how they characterized the strike, and in giving Pakistan enough leeway to wiggle out of the situation without inflaming opinions among their public, so as not to push the situation up the escalation laadder. If things escalated even more than they did after (with Abhinandan, etc), it would've led the international community to put pressure on us and close off the possibility of future punitive strikes.

I suspect not releasing the video was paart of that calibrated response, because it allowed Pak to claim no damage done, and cool things down somewhat at their end. As long as we neutralize a large number of piglets, what does it matter if the other side claims nonsense? The message that needed to go was received by the correct recipients in the Brownpant army. Everything else is noise. And doesn't need a response.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 07 Oct 2020 16:42

This was in the Mirage 2000 video too, interspersed between an animated shot of Mirage 2000s dropping Spice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NH9j28eyymA

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 07 Oct 2020 20:15

Karan M wrote:This was in the Mirage 2000 video too, interspersed between an animated shot of Mirage 2000s dropping Spice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NH9j28eyymA

I assumed the view of the strike was CGI as well. The SPICE 2000 does not have video feedback. That was supposed to have been obtained using the Crystal Maze missiles which were never launched due to weather related issues.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 07 Oct 2020 20:21

Image

via Asian Age. October 7, 2020

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby SU_Mohan » 08 Oct 2020 04:59

Clearly simulated video. Even used the same google maps terrain posted - the shadows and foliage all align.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby basant » 08 Oct 2020 11:38

A post I have been waiting forever! Can we have a thread on '6th gen tech' please?

Anantha Krishnan
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#AFDay2020 CAS speech highlights

For future, we have initiated 6th gen tech, DEWs, smart wingman concept, optionally manned combat platforms, swarm drones, hypersonic weapons etc. Space domain too is given thrust. - ACM R K S Bhadauria

@IAF_MCC

@akananth

#Avgeeks
10:16 AM · Oct 8, 2020·Twitter Web App

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby rajkumar » 08 Oct 2020 16:18

Quick question...when did IAF change the angle of the hand when doing a salute?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby basant » 08 Oct 2020 16:24

^^^
2006

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby manjgu » 08 Oct 2020 21:21

what was ACM Bhadurias take on drones? could not watch the parade telecast..

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 09 Oct 2020 09:12

The acquisition of 30 US drones costing approx. $3B has been put on hold by the Centre after the IAF reportedly expressed doubts about their efficacy,especially in " contested airspace even if armed".
$3B would get at current costs between 60 to 75 Tejas or MIG-29 UPG fighters, and would be a far more worthwhile acquisition in an aircraft-strapped IAF. The USAF plans to retire 24 RQ-4 Global Hawk UAVs early.These could be acquired at a fraction of the cost of the earlier proposal and leave over $2 + B for aircraft acquisitions.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ks_sachin » 09 Oct 2020 10:29

manjgu wrote:what was ACM Bhadurias take on drones? could not watch the parade telecast..

Manjgu Saar.. he droned on and on!!!

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 09 Oct 2020 22:16

Philip wrote:The acquisition of 30 US drones costing approx. $3B has been put on hold by the Centre after the IAF reportedly expressed doubts about their efficacy,especially in " contested airspace even if armed".
$3B would get at current costs between 60 to 75 Tejas or MIG-29 UPG fighters, and would be a far more worthwhile acquisition in an aircraft-strapped IAF. The USAF plans to retire 24 RQ-4 Global Hawk UAVs early.These could be acquired at a fraction of the cost of the earlier proposal and leave over $2 + B for aircraft acquisitions.


Pitting fighters and drones as far as a cost comparison is very tricky. The former are 1/3 LCC to acquire and 2/3 to operate and sustain. The latter are 2/3 or more of LCC to acquire with the remaining consumed in operating them over a much longer time-horizon. Also, if you want to replace the capability needed with 30 drones with fighters you would need a lot lot more fighter aircraft for the same missions. Generally, fighters make rather poor long loiter ISR and ISR+Strike assets.

And good luck with those Global Hawks and modifying them to do what a MALE Reaper would do at a "fraction of the cost".

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 10 Oct 2020 14:14

I don't think that the expected usage of these drones by the IAF is how the US has been using them,primarily in the region to take out high-value targets belonging to Al Q,ISIS,etc. We've known for ages where the likes of Dawood,Hafeez Sayed,etc. have been hiding in Pak.Had it been GOI policy,they would've been statistics by now. Furthermore,the payload of the drones in Q are much less than our two principal med. fighters,the M2K and 29UPG. The Rafale is only now entering service. 21 29s to be upgraded to UPG std. is costing only around $40M a bird. LCAs in the same price vicinity . If ISR was the main capability required,yes,a HALE/MALE UAV would suffice.The combined payload of 30 drones could be carried by half-a-doz. fighters instead. It is probably why the IAF is having second thoughts,plus the arrival of PLA S-400s and other sophisticated SAM systems in Tbet. The Iranians shooting down of a USRQ-4A Global Hawk BAMS-D surveillance drone last year may have been a contributing factor,as well as the emergence of new LR stand-off missiles for the IAF.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby kit » 10 Oct 2020 21:45

Philip wrote:The acquisition of 30 US drones costing approx. $3B has been put on hold by the Centre after the IAF reportedly expressed doubts about their efficacy,especially in " contested airspace even if armed".
$3B would get at current costs between 60 to 75 Tejas or MIG-29 UPG fighters, and would be a far more worthwhile acquisition in an aircraft-strapped IAF. The USAF plans to retire 24 RQ-4 Global Hawk UAVs early.These could be acquired at a fraction of the cost of the earlier proposal and leave over $2 + B for aircraft acquisitions.


Those drones might have made sense 10 years back but the US just sat on it citing those acronyms ., now they have progressed to the next-gen tech , so all ready to sell it.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 11 Oct 2020 03:42

I think that the USAF needs have moved on,so an early retirement is expected of these birds,though Congress is stalling the idea. Just like UK Harriers,but for budgetary reasons.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 11 Oct 2020 04:17

Philip wrote:I think that the USAF needs have moved on,so an early retirement is expected of these birds,though Congress is stalling the idea. Just like UK Harriers,but for budgetary reasons.


There is not enough money in the entire USAF budget to magically transfrom those Global Hawk to serve the MALE UAV/UCAV mission set. It is just absurd. Secondly, for the HALE role, the reason the USAF wants them gone is that some of them have deviated from the current baseline to such an extent that the additional O&S cost coupled with their cost to bring to the baseline is more than the residual value left in them. Plus the USAF has a Global Hawk replacement operational already so no reason to carry the substantially higher O&S burden by having a sub-fleet that needs to be treated as essentially a different fleet altogether. This obviously also means that no third party can simply buy that platform and use it to satisfy a MALE UAV/UCAV requirement or derive some sort of value in operating that HALE capability.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 11 Oct 2020 04:57

Well,lucky US that can junk such systems so easily! We're manfully keeping our legacy MIG-21s flying after 50+ years! And when the Bisons finally retire,they'll cross 60.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 11 Oct 2020 05:35

Philip wrote:Well,lucky US that can junk such systems so easily!


Replied in the appropriate thread - viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7088&p=2464925#p2464925

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby asbchakri » 11 Oct 2020 22:27

Philip wrote:Well,lucky US that can junk such systems so easily! We're manfully keeping our legacy MIG-21s flying after 50+ years! And when the Bisons finally retire,they'll cross 60.


Well the official retirement age in India is 60 right :D


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