Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

[jamwal]

Also, I'd like these people to actually visit Indo-Tibetan border and observe the weather conditions firsthand. Majority of these so called lethal drones, swarms and what not will struggle to even lift off the ground, let alone carry any significant loadout. A cursory look at operating altitude of these machines will remove most of about these 'next generation' weapons. Even their battery performance is severely degraded in the cold weather.
Chinese posted one video of food delivery by a quadcopter and most people here started dhoti-shivering and rants against own people. Unless PLA has small drones which can carry 5 kg or more payload, liftoff from 3500 m and higher altitude and stay stable in strong wind, all these pages of discussion are just wastage of bandwidth,

Not saying that they are useless, but technology isn't that advanced yet.

[MeshaVishwas]

Why should Shiv Aroor have all the fun?


questions are better from this journo.
Tiger 1 saar also reveals that he flew the Ayf Solah and the Iron Maiden _______ of the Opera in Israel.

[hnair]

Not saying that they are useless, but technology isn't that advanced yet.

Indeed. They will be used as a harassment weapon by all sides. One or two psyops videos and everyone will be on full alert to take down these lower tier critters to the squad level.

As for serving food etc - it is still prone to interdiction during hot time. The damn UAVs won’t even know it is being attacked by shotguns or smaller air burst rounds. This is like those Cheeni special forces on Segways - aimed at solid kindergarten/Little Emperor demographics.

Good news of drone scare is that proximate VVIP security folks like SPG etc will be happy their work on highly portable jammers is going mainstream. They have been dealing with this threat since 1980s, IIRC

[ashbhee]

There is lots of chatter about IAF buying 67 used UAE Mirage 2000s. Is there any merit in buying these used 2000s? What would be a good price for these? How much would it cost to upgrade them to IAFs standard?

[Philip]

Older M2Ks will have to be upgraded considerably and therein lies the problem.The upgrade cost for our 54 M2Ks was $2.5B! almost $50M a pop,that's $10M more than a brand new MIG-29 to latest upgrade stds.It makes little sense.The 64+ MIG-29 upgrades cost just under $1B,working out to around $13M per upgrade. Unless the aircraft are bought for a real song and their upgrade costs come down considerably,we would be better off buying another sqd. of Rafales . If LCAs were rolling off prod. lines at speed,more LCAs as well.
It's why I think ,costs,the IAF have not pursued thus far the secondhand M2K line.It'll cost us at least $4B for acquiring and upgrading the UAE M2Ks,We should be able to get an extra Rafale sqd. for around $2.5/3B,and if you go by the official cost of acquiring the extra new unused MIG-29s to UPG std. for just $40M a pop,we could get 100 new MIG-29 UPGs instead of 67 ex-UAE birds! That's 5 sqds.

[V_Raman]

This could be about quickly bolstering capacity more than anything else. It is not easy to get 67 planes off the shelf from somewhere...

[AkshaySG]

This could be about quickly bolstering capacity more than anything else. It is not easy to get 67 planes off the shelf from somewhere...

I think we've made too many of these short term decisions for "quickly and cheaply bolstering capacity" when the end result is neither quick nor cheap .. Upgrades always end up costing more than in initial estimates and take more time , Our own Mig 29, M2k and Jaguar upgrades are proof of that , Heck even the "new" Mig -29s from Russia will take years before they are ready to go .If we want to induct 67 jets in 2023-24 they should at least be able to serve till 2040 or beyond and I just don't see that happening with M2k

If its about Quality then i'd much rather get another Rafale squadron or if not then pour this money into Su-30 upgrades

[John]

Older M2Ks will have to be upgraded considerably and therein lies the problem.The upgrade cost for our 54 M2Ks was $2.5B! almost $50M a pop,that's $10M more than a brand new MIG-29 to latest upgrade stds.It makes little sense.The 64+ MIG-29 upgrades cost just under $1B,working out to around $13M per upgrade. Unless the aircraft are bought for a real song and their upgrade costs come down considerably,we would be better off buying another sqd. of Rafales . If LCAs were rolling off prod. lines at speed,more LCAs as well.
It's why I think ,costs,the IAF have not pursued thus far the secondhand M2K line.It'll cost us at least $4B for acquiring and upgrading the UAE M2Ks,We should be able to get an extra Rafale sqd. for around $2.5/3B,and if you go by the official cost of acquiring the extra new unused MIG-29s to UPG std. for just $40M a pop,we could get 100 new MIG-29 UPGs instead of 67 ex-UAE birds! That's 5 sqds.

We don’t know what the proposed cost for M2K are and what the deal is or if there is any truth to the rumors. UAE just signed maintenance deal with Dassault so I find it hard to believe that they will sell it off especially as they are being used in Yemen and Libya.

Also we are paying 45 million for mig-29 that were rusting in a hanger FYI. So it makes little sense to buy used Mig-29s as well..

[Vivek K]

If its about Quality then i'd much rather get another Rafale squadron or if not then pour this money into Su-30 upgrades

Frankly such statements make me ashamed!! With the LCA available, throwing Indian jobs away at the drop of the hat makes me glad of only one thing- that I am no longer at the mercy of people foolish as this.

Nothing will change in India. In 2030 we will still be debating LCA or Mig35(Comrade Russi Rakshak)/ Rawfail (Admiral at large) and so on. Heaven help us if India is offered the F35/45 or whatever is the flavor of the day.

So we Indians should not talk about economy at least on BRF!

The LCA program is about an aircraft that provides real capability, a Military Industrial Complex, and good paying jobs to Indians actively engaged in the program. Every import makes their jobs less secure. We should be talking about a 3rd, 4th , 5th line for LCA and for the next serial development. It is a national shame to see the Indian Defense Minister go running around the world begging for support and quick supplies. But as some could put it - to develop or remain dependent, the choice is yours!

[tandav]

Also, I'd like these people to actually visit Indo-Tibetan border and observe the weather conditions firsthand. Majority of these so called lethal drones, swarms and what not will struggle to even lift off the ground, let alone carry any significant loadout. A cursory look at operating altitude of these machines will remove most of about these 'next generation' weapons. Even their battery performance is severely degraded in the cold weather.
Chinese posted one video of food delivery by a quadcopter and most people here started dhoti-shivering and rants against own people. Unless PLA has small drones which can carry 5 kg or more payload, liftoff from 3500 m and higher altitude and stay stable in strong wind, all these pages of discussion are just wastage of bandwidth,

Not saying that they are useless, but technology isn't that advanced yet.

The cold part is true, however this may be more for rotor craft drones... which may have a lower probability of use in Tibet arena
https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/discharging_at_high_and_low_temperatures

However loitering munitions like the CH901 (tube launched) may be capable of operating in the Tibet theater
https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/a20722/china-mini-drone/

My concern is not the popular idea of ground forces launching these munitions from ground positions but more geared towards a high altitude deployment of these munitions by aerial platforms like the H6 / Y20 / J20 which then give them the advantage of altitude which covers up for degraded battery performance. The Chinese ground and satellite systems will give targeting support

[Cybaru]

There is lots of chatter about IAF buying 67 used UAE Mirage 2000s. Is there any merit in buying these used 2000s? What would be a good price for these? How much would it cost to upgrade them to IAFs standard?

Where is this chatter?

[brar_w]

Why would the UAE sell these aircraft, and what would replace them? Given that they are probably using their fighter aircraft the most they've ever done how and why would they find offloading 67 aircraft easy when they have no new aircraft on back-order at the moment?

[Jay]

[
If its about Quality then i'd much rather get another Rafale squadron or if not then pour this money into Su-30 upgrades

Absolutely not. LCA and its derivatives are the way to go.

[Rishirishi]

This could be about quickly bolstering capacity more than anything else. It is not easy to get 67 planes off the shelf from somewhere...

I think we've made too many of these short term decisions for "quickly and cheaply bolstering capacity" when the end result is neither quick nor cheap .. Upgrades always end up costing more than in initial estimates and take more time , Our own Mig 29, M2k and Jaguar upgrades are proof of that , Heck even the "new" Mig -29s from Russia will take years before they are ready to go .If we want to induct 67 jets in 2023-24 they should at least be able to serve till 2040 or beyond and I just don't see that happening with M2k

If its about Quality then i'd much rather get another Rafale squadron or if not then pour this money into Su-30 upgrades

Well, kind of agree here. India will be dependent on France for the purchase. The french will probably try to push more Rafaels. The Mirage is however a plane the IAF knows well. If they can be bought for a good price and there is not need for much upgrade, then it may make sense. But the other problem will be that it will take some time before the JSF's are in the UAE arsenal. By that time, the mirages will be be rounding 40 years. How long time does the IAF want to keep tease AC?

[brar_w]

I think we've made too many of these short term decisions for "quickly and cheaply bolstering capacity" when the end result is neither quick nor cheap .. Upgrades always end up costing more than in initial estimates and take more time , Our own Mig 29, M2k and Jaguar upgrades are proof of that , Heck even the "new" Mig -29s from Russia will take years before they are ready to go .If we want to induct 67 jets in 2023-24 they should at least be able to serve till 2040 or beyond and I just don't see that happening with M2k

If its about Quality then i'd much rather get another Rafale squadron or if not then pour this money into Su-30 upgrades

Well, kind of agree here. India will be dependent on France for the purchase. The french will probably try to push more Rafaels. The Mirage is however a plane the IAF knows well. If they can be bought for a good price and there is not need for much upgrade, then it may make sense. But the other problem will be that it will take some time before the JSF's are in the UAE arsenal. By that time, the mirages will be be rounding 40 years. How long time does the IAF want to keep tease AC?

This assumes that the JSF deal, which is already facing certain headwinds in Congress, survives a Biden administration analysis and any push-back from Israel (which usually happens with a new admin). It also assumes that the UAE will all of a sudden abandon their strategy of maintaining two strategic supply sources for their combat aircraft, which they have done for a long time. I think rather than the JSF potential deal, it is better to be on the look out for a future UAE Rafale deal which I suspect will follow if and when the F-35 deal is finally sealed which is usually 2-3 years after FMS approval (ME nations usually have a very large contract negotiation phase because of their unique requirements and training and support contract footprint).

[vimal]

Not sure where to add this this but I noticed a few articles after a long time on tkstales blog.

https://tkstales.wordpress.com/2020/07/

[AkshaySG]

If its about Quality then i'd much rather get another Rafale squadron or if not then pour this money into Su-30 upgrades

Frankly such statements make me ashamed!! With the LCA available, throwing Indian jobs away at the drop of the hat makes me glad of only one thing- that I am no longer at the mercy of people foolish as this.

Nothing will change in India. In 2030 we will still be debating LCA or Mig35(Comrade Russi Rakshak)/ Rawfail (Admiral at large) and so on. Heaven help us if India is offered the F35/45 or whatever is the flavor of the day.

So we Indians should not talk about economy at least on BRF!

The LCA program is about an aircraft that provides real capability, a Military Industrial Complex, and good paying jobs to Indians actively engaged in the program. Every import makes their jobs less secure. We should be talking about a 3rd, 4th , 5th line for LCA and for the next serial development. It is a national shame to see the Indian Defense Minister go running around the world begging for support and quick supplies. But as some could put it - to develop or remain dependent, the choice is yours!

Bruh... Obviously the LCA is the way to go, But there are other things to be considered, First of all this is being talked about as a quicker option and LCA won't be that, We're already looking at an order of 86 which won't be placed for at least a few more months and they themselves will take years to build and get inducted. Even if a new assembly line comes up... While more Rafales are far quicker.

Secondly the IAF wants specific Jets for specific weight classes and roles, They are a huge proponent of Mirage/Rafale family for the medium fighter role and prefer to use them in most quick strike roles .. So if we're not going for additional Mirages then that budget should go to another medium fighter or a variant capable of fulfilling that role

Now if Tejas Mk2 or MWF or whatever HAL has in mind for that category was even close to ready then by all means go for it.. But in the here and now another Rafale squadron makes more sense.


Of course all of this only matters if IAF is actually interested in those Mirages, Which mostly likely looking the costs and complexities involved they won't be... Not to mention the drop in defense budgets due to Covid contraction.

[Cain Marko]

Older M2Ks will have to be upgraded considerably and therein lies the problem.The upgrade cost for our 54 M2Ks was $2.5B! almost $50M a pop,that's $10M more than a brand new MIG-29 to latest upgrade stds.It makes little sense.The 64+ MIG-29 upgrades cost just under $1B,working out to around $13M per upgrade. Unless the aircraft are bought for a real song and their upgrade costs come down considerably,we would be better off buying another sqd. of Rafales . If LCAs were rolling off prod. lines at speed,more LCAs as well.
It's why I think ,costs,the IAF have not pursued thus far the secondhand M2K line.It'll cost us at least $4B for acquiring and upgrading the UAE M2Ks,We should be able to get an extra Rafale sqd. for around $2.5/3B,and if you go by the official cost of acquiring the extra new unused MIG-29s to UPG std. for just $40M a pop,we could get 100 new MIG-29 UPGs instead of 67 ex-UAE birds! That's 5 sqds.

These m2ks are the most advanced m2ks built afaik. These are not some old model basic bird. The dash 9 standard uae mirages will possibly be closest to IAF spec vajra upgrades with icms mk3. And iirc their radar is more advanced. If the price is right, India should gobble them up, at least those that have decent airframe life still intact..

They are pretty much ready, and might do well enough even without any further mods. Induction could be very fast.

[nachiket]

Can anyone actually point to a source (beyond random anonymous twitter handles) which says that the UAE is planning to sell their M2k's?

[LakshmanPST]

I guess it is only speculation by some ppl that UAE will sell the M2ks since they're buying 50 F35s...
Even if the speculations are indeed true, they won't be selling the Mirage 2000 jets until they receive all the F35s, which is atleadt 7-8 years away... By that time Tejas Mk2 will be ready for production anyway and our own Mirages will be less than a decade away from retirement...
-
On a side note, UAE have 67 M2ks and around half of them were bought in early 1980s... Other half were bought around year 2000...
These 30 odd jets of 2nd batch are only 20 years old as on date and have lot of airframe life left in them...
If at all they are offered and come at a cheap price and we need them to temporarily shore up our numbers at that point of time, only then can we think of it...
Otherwise, it is waste of time to discuss it here...

[Cyrano]

Trump pushing through Israel-UAE normalisation agreement is perhaps intended to make future weapon sales like F-35 possible ?

[brar_w]

Logically, if the F-35A purchase goes through (a big IF), UAE is more likely to look to sell its F-16 E/F's instead of the M2K's given there is no reason why they wouldn't want to maintain two strategic suppliers for their combat aircraft. Both the UAE and KSA have done this and will probably continue to do this into the future.

[Vips]

UAE is also buying 36 Rafales and hence may be looking to retire its Mirage 2000. It make little sense for UAE to keep the now maintenance intensive Mirages which came in the 80's. These would look out of place for an air force which has Block 60 F16's, and soon to be inducted Rafales and F35.

[brar_w]

UAE is also buying 36 Rafales and hence may be looking to retire its Mirage 2000. It make little sense for UAE to keep the now maintenance intensive Mirages which came in the 80's. These would look out of place for an air force which has Block 60 F16's, and soon to be inducted Rafales and F35.

Qatar is buying 36 Rafales. No Rafale deal has been finalized for the UAE though once the contract negotiations on the F-35 concludes this could also come through.

[Rakesh]

Can anyone actually point to a source (beyond random anonymous twitter handles) which says that the UAE is planning to sell their M2k's?

All fake news onlee. Nothing confirmed. Till then, from Group Captain HV Thakur (retd)....

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12391 ... 53089?s=20 ---> Yes! Gets many hearts pounding. The Mirage-2000I/TI FOC aircraft upgraded in India, is an incredible machine.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12391 ... 05472?s=20 ---> Indian Mirage-2000I/TI is a generation ahead of all variants of Mirage 2000-5, -5Mk-2, -9 etc. The customized equipment & weapons array is far superior. We'll choose if we need to integrate weapons of Rafale on our Mirages.

[nachiket]

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12391 ... 05472?s=20 ---> Indian Mirage-2000I/TI is a generation ahead of all variants of Mirage 2000-5, -5Mk-2, -9 etc. The customized equipment & weapons array is far superior. We'll choose if we need to integrate weapons of Rafale on our Mirages.

Not sure what this equipment may be. It has the same radar, defensive suite and air-to-air weaponry of the other variants. He might be talking about a2g munitions like Spice which we have integrated, but we did that before the upgrade on the H variant itself. Still an extremely capable aircraft though.

[Rakesh]

That confused me as well, because it is my understanding that the Indian Mirage 2000 upgrade is the Mirage 2000-9.

He is saying something different though. But then again, that why he is an actual Group Captain and I am just a "fake" Admiral

HVT Sir would know best...

[Karan M]

The UAE on paper, as memory serves had a very capable fit with their Mirage 2000s with RDY-2 radar, an ICMS developed with input from Elettronica not the standard Thales one, hence called the IMEWS, plus access to Black Shaheen missiles. The Elettronica IMEWS while ostensibly superior to anything on the Mirages till then had a troubled development history and had many teething issues including on those upgrades sold to Greece. Presumably it was solved later. We chose the latest version of the ICMS for our Mirage upgrade.
However while on paper RDY-2 was superior to the RDY-3 (as on our Mirages, derived from a lower power variant, simpler to manufacture, as originally reported) in recent reports UAE was planning an upgrade to bring their aircraft to a fit similar to the IAFs Dash I standard, including the RDY-3 radar. This supports the Group Captains point about the IAF Mirages currently being the most sophisticated ones in existence. The only item on the Mirage 2000-9s, whose equivalent we may not have on our Mirages, is a MAWS. As I recall the Dash 9s had one.

[fanne]

My understanding - UAE mirages were the best mirages till IAF upgrades. But IAF upgrade was to catchup to the UAE standard with some difference
1. Lesser capable radar (RDY-3) to save on cost
2.Any upgrade in electronics since the year 2009 (UAE model year). Which may make IAF versiom better than the UAE standard (Particularly in EW department), data fusion etc.

If the UAE Mirages are economical, they may not need any upgrades (and save money outflow because of that). IAF can perhaps maintain two different versions of 50 planes each.

[Karan M]

The RDY-3 may be on the UAE Mirage upgrades as well. Seems doubtful the UAE will sell off these aircraft after having upgraded them so recently.
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... ge-upgrade

[nachiket]

UAE selling them comes out of some random guy's dream on twitter. Not blaming him, we have all dreamed of more Mirages for the IAF at one point or another. But it is not based in reality. Even if the F-35's do arrive, that does not mean the UAE will automatically sell off their Mirages when they have plenty of hours left in them. It will be years before they start getting those F-35's too.

Anyway, hopefully the Tejas Mk2 program goes according to schedule. Once that is ready we'll have our very own M2k (and Mig-29 and Jaguar) replacement.

[brar_w]

The F-35 deal is hardly guaranteed. And even if it happens, the UAE is more likely to begin offloading its F-16 E/F in case it needs to shed capacity for whatever reasons though it is more likely that they'll retain all three types.

[Karan M]

UAE selling them comes out of some random guy's dream on twitter. Not blaming him, we have all dreamed of more Mirages for the IAF at one point or another. But it is not based in reality. Even if the F-35's do arrive, that does not mean the UAE will automatically sell off their Mirages when they have plenty of hours left in them. It will be years before they start getting those F-35's too.

Anyway, hopefully the Tejas Mk2 program goes according to schedule. Once that is ready we'll have our very own M2k (and Mig-29 and Jaguar) replacement.

For the price one'd pay for a handful of used airframes, you could upgrade a huge chunk of the existing Su-30 fleet and also accelerate the Tejas program. Merely the upgrades for 50 odd Mirages cost us $2.4 Bn, leaving aside weapons, in 2013 prices at approx. today's exchange rates, leaving aside inflation. For the all-up airframes, we can easily double the estimate. For $5Bn plus, how many Su-30s could we upgrade? How many Tejas specific improvements could be accelerated? Yet, people are going ga-ga over the thought of getting non standard Mirage 2000s which would require another significant investment to bring up to spec vis a vis the existing Mirage 2000 fleet.

[fanne]

SU-30MKI is long in the tooth - It can and must be updated. It can be brought to Rafale standard (except the LO)

[Karan M]

If Su-30 base design is long in the tooth, then Mirage is positively ancient. Point is avionics development is a constant, iterative process and the IAF needs to prioritize that.

[chetak]

Trump pushing through Israel-UAE normalisation agreement is perhaps intended to make future weapon sales like F-35 possible ?

nobel hunt

[fanne]

Not the design - What it needs (at very high level, and not exhaustive) - (In the same direction as F-15 upgrades)

Major Structure changes (if can be done)
-Wet wings
- More composites in the body (during overhaul etc.)

Engine (more reliable and more thrust for next gen avionics)

Avionics -
AESA radar (it would be shame to retire the current one, but a similar size AESA will do wonders)
Next Gen optronic
Data fusion and display (same as level of Rafale) - voice command - Display minimal and only important and needed information to pilot.
Like how FCS can fly the plane with minimal pilot input, let the combat system fight with minimal pilot load/interaction

EW and associated equipment - MAWS, Towed decoys, internal jammer (something like Spectra, if not something in its league)

Weapons - New Gen AAM (short and long ranges) - The MC is ours - ASTRA and desi meteor will fly, but get Russian equivalents

Cheaper A/G smart weapons - Brahmos and Brahmos NG for sure, but something like SCALP. Spice is happening, and all kinds of desi smart A/G - SAAW etc.

Most of the avionics, data fusion (and even radar if we are lucky), combat system - The brain part of the plane, Even EW (but we should include Russians, they have longer experience) can be out growth of LCA mk1a, MWF and AMCA etc. That piece (30-40% of upgrade cost) can be used for LCA mk1a, MWF, TEDBF, AMCA etc etc.

I think we are doing some of it in the recent Mig 29 further upgrade (the one signed along with the new 21 Mig 29 deal). It will get the Indian MC.

[Karan M]

We've discussed these points on BR multiple times, but at the end of the day, its all about budget and timelines plus what's readily available - Indian and Russian industry both. Restrictions in any of these factors will automatically limit significant upgrades to something more basic.

[nachiket]

We've discussed these points on BR multiple times, but at the end of the day, its all about budget and timelines plus what's readily available - Indian and Russian industry both. Restrictions in any of these factors will automatically limit significant upgrades to something more basic.

I believe all the components for a decent upgrade are available. Our problem has always been taking forever to make critical decisions and even longer to provide the necessary funds. This has deteriorated even more in recent times thanks to covid and the economic downturn combined with the possibility of war with China resulting in increased expenditure to keep our forces in Ladakh well equipped and supplied.

[basant]

Not worth commenting for more than one reason.
IAF for short-term leasing of trainer aircraft, light copters

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is looking at leasing training aircraft and Light Utility Helicopters (LUH) for short duration till the indigenous platforms under development are inducted into service, said IAF Deputy Chief Air Marshal Sandeep Singh on Wednesday. The recently released Defence Acquisition Procedure (DAP) 2020 allows leasing of military platforms.

“The IAF is in the process of sending out Request for Information (RFI) for leasing trainer aircraft for relatively short period,” Air Marshal Singh said at a webinar organised by the Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce and Industry.