Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby sudeepj » 18 Jan 2017 22:50

a. To deter salami slicing, our division commanders in areas where we are at a disadvantage must be given control of nukes. (Though the recent Gen Bakshi meltdown suggests that some army commanders are not ready for the responsibility).
b. Our declared strategy should be that division commanders would use nukes if their forces are threatened with annihilation.
c. We should declare that nuclear testing moratorium is only as long as we are not threatened. If China so much as moves one brigade at us, if they show any signs of salami tactics such as installing new bases and posts in areas claimed by us, we will go for the Mahabum.
d. An open ended military Tango with Japan, US and Vietnam.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 18 Jan 2017 22:53

Deans wrote:I think crossing into Tibet is less a question of ability than will.

Now you are heading into territory that I like to stomp around in. Will cannot come from an intimidated people. The chiefs of defence staff today were children when the Chinese kicked our butts and have been exposed to the same negative "We will lose" mindset that the entire nation is affected by

No Indian ever says that India has the will to be an aggressor even when people of the armed forces recommend that in article after article.

Will is a mental process. Let us leave that out of the discussion and talk about what it would take other than will - because will does not exist in a nation that sees itself as weak. And a people who get offended when they are shown a mirror about how intimidated they feel.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby sudeepj » 18 Jan 2017 22:55

shiv wrote:
sudeepj wrote:As for offence vs defence, a 2% of GDP spent on military does not get you offence. Instead of appreciating his situation, Shiv ji is intent on situating his appreciation (the Dhoti shiver nonsense and counter propaganda on how IA will be offensive).

Instead of figuring out how a large, powerful and aggressive neighbor can be deterred from a limited war using diplomatic, military and political options, it is being posited that Indians are shivering in their dhotis and must take off the dhotis and wave them about to ensure morale!

:rotfl: Sorry if the truth upsets you. No. Strike that. Not sorry at all. Actually quite pleased.

Your post is a classic BRF argument which stays even further away from the dirty business of war and calculates result of war from percentage of GDP spent on defence. Vietnam and the Taliban were both lucky that no one was calculating GDP percentage when they fought off the US (and the Russians in the case of the Taliban)


You must have caught something from your patients.. step away from the keyboard sir. What makes me shake my head is your stupidity in claiming offensive capabilities while reality is that politically, even the most right wing govt. in Indian history has been unable to move the needle on defense expenditure. Carry on waving your dhoti.. Its not impressing anyone.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Rakesh » 18 Jan 2017 22:57

sudeep: why so much heartburn? :) Please read the last post on page 5 of this thread.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby sudeepj » 18 Jan 2017 22:58

shiv wrote:Now you are heading into territory that I like to stomp around in. Will cannot come from an intimidated people. The chiefs of defence staff today were children when the Chinese kicked our butts and have been exposed to the same negative "We will lose" mindset that the entire nation is affected by


You are the only person infected by the "We will lose" mindset, if you notice others have moved on and want an actual plan to ensure we dont lose! Or better still, that there is no conflict and we are left well alone!

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Deans » 18 Jan 2017 23:00

The Chinese have attempted salami slicing and a quick land grab in the South China sea without any major Naval an air build up, let alone
the threat of a shooting war. That is why I believe that is China's preferred strategy.
In Ladakh there is a similar salami slicing pattern i.e.
- Yak herder crosses over into India.
- Yak herder accompanied by armed `border guards'.
- Chinese Border guards build shelter for yak herders. (Does our Div commander use his Nukes ?)
- Indian patrol discovers shelter. Chai-biskoot sessions follow. Eventually everyone gets tired and leaves.
Last edited by Deans on 18 Jan 2017 23:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 18 Jan 2017 23:01

sudeepj wrote:
You must have caught something from your patients.. step away from the keyboard sir. What makes me shake my head is your stupidity in claiming offensive capabilities while reality is that politically, even the most right wing govt. in Indian history has been unable to move the needle on defense expenditure. Carry on waving your dhoti.. Its not impressing anyone.

Speak for yourself sir and let me stress that your right to make a diagnosis of what I have is matched by my ability to diagnose your malady. Glad if I touched a raw nerve.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 18 Jan 2017 23:02

sudeepj wrote:You are the only person infected by the "We will lose" mindset, if you notice others have moved on and want an actual plan to ensure we dont lose! Or better still, that there is no conflict and we are left well alone!

I doubt that I am the only person affected by this mindset of fear. if you are not - that is good for you But I have lakhs of people to keep me company as I fear defeat from China

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 18 Jan 2017 23:03

Deans wrote:The Chinese have attempted salami slicing and a quick land grab in the South China sea without any major Naval an air build up, let alone
the threat of a shooting war. That is why I believe that is China's preferred strategy.
In Ladakh there is a similar salami slicing pattern i.e.
- Yak herder crosses over into India.
- Yak herder accompanied by armed `border guards'.
- Chinese Border guards build shelter for yak herders.
- Indian patrol discovers shelter. Chai-biskoot sessions follow. Eventually everyone gets tired and leaves.

Is this the Army version of events?

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Deans » 18 Jan 2017 23:08

I was being mildly sarcastic with the Yak herder analogy, but unless a yak herder is shot the next time `he loses his way', these intelligence gathering missions and tests of our resolve will keep happening.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby AdityaM » 18 Jan 2017 23:12

Me thinks that 48 & 10 hour timeline can only be met if the war starts with the nuking of Indian political/military command centres and rendering second strike unfeasible.

More than the literal interpretation of the alleged boast in logistically feasible terms, was it their intent to just give a thinly veiled nuke threat in response to Agni tests.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Rakesh » 18 Jan 2017 23:15

If they nuke New Delhi, why bother going there? It will be a wasteland.

With regards to your second sentence, that is EXACTLY their intent.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 18 Jan 2017 23:18

Deans wrote:I was being mildly sarcastic with the Yak herder analogy, but unless a yak herder is shot the next time `he loses his way', these intelligence gathering missions and tests of our resolve will keep happening.

Whenever these incidents have occurred in the recent past - (2-3 years) I have always heard a different version from the news media and from the army. I have also got the impression that our own army also do equally aggressive patrolling and its not as if they are salami slicing and we are mostly watching.

But let me digress here for a bit.

For many years I have read news items that "Pakistan resorted to unprovoked firing" and the BSF or army retaliated appropriately. For long I was unable to believe that Pakis were provoking and we were never doing anything much. I know from personal accounts and from reading that you cannot maintain the morale of a fighting force if your orders to them are not to hit back. I gradually came to accept that at least some of the aggression must have been from our side.Only it is never reported that way. it only leaks out through "other channels". Perhaps it is because we have a nation full of apologists, jholawalas and softies that we cannot even hit our enemies without being apologetic and cagey about it and pretending constant innocence.

I am certain that Salami gets sliced in different ways - but overall there is not much change

Let me briefly dwell on mindsets. A fighting force will not fight when it comes to the crunch unless they are maintained in a state of controlled aggression. Yes the armed forces are disciplined but they are testosterone filled aggressive creatures to a man. They fight because that is what they are trained for. And if you hear the stories in private - you know that they are not sitting back and only getting hit. It is pathetic that we have to hide this in our country.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Deans » 18 Jan 2017 23:30

While I have considered worse case scenarios, there are also significant weaknesses with the Chinese position and a question mark about their
own will to attack us.
The Chinese have relied on threats, bluff and bluster to get their way (and get truly worried when Trump does the same thing). They have stood down when Japan or India have called their bluff during their attempted salami slicing. For all their bluster they do not as yet present a credible threat to Taiwan. They have chosen to pick on the weakest countries in the region (Philippines, Vietnam) that too after a reduced threat of US intervention.

The need to avoid any loss of face in the south China sea will also require the bulk of the PLAAF & almost all the PLAN to focus on this region and not India.

Attacking India represents a high risk gamble, with little gain, since they will be (if successful) occupying territory where `not a blade of grass grows', as opposed to mineral rich islands in the South China sea. There is currently in my view, a window of opportunity for China, where they believe they have an edge over us, but during that period they will have more pressing priorities with Taiwan and the SC Sea. Once we get our logistics act together and sort out some of the more glaring gaps in our hardware along the Indo-Tibet border (Artillery, SAM's, more aircraft) that window of opportunity is also gone.

If bluff and bluster don't work, the next option is bribery, which is where China has co-opted Pakistan. Again, this is a short term threat, since the Chinese will soon see that their investments in Pak are not bringing returns. On the contrary a growing Indian economy will make Chinese gains from trade and normal relations with India outweigh any gains from war (even an India-Pak one) as is becoming the case with NoKo (money wasted to
prop up an unstable leader with nukes) vs South Korea.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Atmavik » 18 Jan 2017 23:43

rohitvats wrote:
BTW - I learned an interesting thing few days back: Remember an article by Group Captain Bewoor about moving T-72 tanks to Leh by IL-76 in late 1980s? Well, it seems that these tanks were moved BY ROAD from Leh, over the Chang-La pass and through Shyok into DBO!!! This was done when our infrastructure in this area was simply not available. Today, the we should've a road from Darbuk to DBO by 2018/19.


A pic i took on way to Chang-La pass in 2010.

Image

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby rohitvats » 19 Jan 2017 00:38

Deans wrote: <SNIP>If the PLA looks for a quick land grab in a short sharp war (after a slow build up of tension and some salami slicing, during which they bring up reinforcements, while we have chai-biskoot sessions) then a quick 2 division thrust against our brigade, into the relatively flat area around DBO may be possible<SNIP>


- Which are these two PLA divisions?
- Where are they stationed and what is there distance from DBO?
- How long will they take to reach their jump-stations opposite DBO?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do answer the above questions because I really want to understand how this scenario has been conjured up.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby UlanBatori » 19 Jan 2017 01:19

The obvious riposte to any PeeAllSee move across Himalayan border is to land a parachute division around Hotan and cut the Gaand315, then drive along that, a wedge between Tibet and Xinjiang, to supply weapons and Mawral and Hyooo-ManEateri-in support to both provinces like India NEVER does in Baluchistan. Next landing at Lhasa to drive the PeeAllSee into the barren slopes outside, then let the locals hang the Hans.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby ramana » 19 Jan 2017 02:12

UlanBatori wrote:The obvious riposte to any PeeAllSee move across Himalayan border is to land a parachute division around Hotan and cut the Gaand315, then drive along that, a wedge between Tibet and Xinjiang, to supply weapons and Mawral and Hyooo-ManEateri-in support to both provinces like India NEVER does in Baluchistan. Next landing at Lhasa to drive the PeeAllSee into the barren slopes outside, then let the locals hang the Hans.



The obvious one is to make Buddha roar again. And Chinese know this and will keep talking tough but no action.
Action via TSP only. As US agrees to the zero sum riot with nukes.
So work on neutering TSP.

MAD is working on this.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby ramana » 19 Jan 2017 02:15

Lalmohan wrote:hope you have all read A. Tellis's book on the Indian Nuclear posture and the 'ugly deterrent' between India and China across the Himalaya for conventional war fighting...



For sake of those who didn't can you give a four line summary of the "ugly deterrent'?

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby ShauryaT » 19 Jan 2017 02:31

ramana wrote:So work on neutering TSP.

MAD is working on this.
How? Please expand in deterrence thread.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby disha » 19 Jan 2017 02:32

I have a pooch.,

If 100k (or 10 Divisions) of Chinese gather in tibbet., who will provide them food & water and other facilities?

Assuming that each of the 100k is a fighting force., then some another 25k are required to prepare food, clean clothes, bring water/etc, and build toilets. The last part is important. I mean even if the Beepuls Lightening Arses move their entire 100k across from interiors into tibet in say 5 days., that many days there will be activity at staging grounds. And of course they will be bringing in their super-duper mobile radars and artilleries and what not. Further how will they power their equipment? Setup a nuclear power station in tibet?

PS: If cheenis really outsource that job to tibetans., then desis must welcome cheenis to come to tibbet and stay there - since it will improve tibet economy!

Also this gives a good reason of Desis not attacking tibet. After going there., what will we do? Defending tibet will easily take up some 500k of armed forces!!

Just because Nehru was in '62 caught with his pants down (both literally and figuratively)., does not mean we have been always caught with our pants down. For eg.: 1967 Nathu La.

PPS: I really really think that several posters on the BRF are just city slickers. I mean they will not be able do a hike 15 Km from 3000 ft to 8000 ft (or 12000 ft) with some 40 Kgs of weight in a single day! And look at some of the passes., the "low passes" are at 3000/4000 mtrs - that is some 9000 to 12000 ft!!
Last edited by disha on 19 Jan 2017 06:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Gerard » 19 Jan 2017 02:34

ramana wrote:
Lalmohan wrote:hope you have all read A. Tellis's book on the Indian Nuclear posture and the 'ugly deterrent' between India and China across the Himalaya for conventional war fighting...



For sake of those who didn't can you give a four line summary of the "ugly deterrent'?


Haven't read about the "ugly deterrent" either. Summary please

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby UlanBatori » 19 Jan 2017 02:50

Seriously, the PeeAllSee's major worry about India should be that evil yindoos will cause the Xinjiangis and Tibetans to rise in revolt at the same time. PeeAllSee could become Harf Arrsee in no time. Inner Mongolians might then become Outer Mongolians. And Siberian border and Vietnamese border might come inwards very fast.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby sanjaykumar » 19 Jan 2017 05:06

Marx's dialectic will ensure that PRC goes the same way as CCCP.

The Mumbai slum dweller as more first world rights than the wealthiest Chinese, the Chinese dare not permit political freedoms unlike Gorbachev. The dissolution of China won't be as civilised as that of the USSR.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Rakesh » 19 Jan 2017 05:57

This is how the 48 hour story got started in the first place...

https://twitter.com/CNNnews18/status/821683302532841474

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby disha » 19 Jan 2017 06:20

^^ CNN discovers what we at BRF knew all along about chinese posters ...

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby UlanBatori » 19 Jan 2017 06:42

sanjaykumar wrote:Marx's dialectic will ensure that PRC goes the same way as CCCP.
The Mumbai slum dweller as more first world rights than the wealthiest Chinese, the Chinese dare not permit political freedoms unlike Gorbachev. The dissolution of China won't be as civilised as that of the USSR.


Serious question: Is this still true in China? (If it is, there is hope. :mrgreen: )

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 19 Jan 2017 07:35

disha wrote:
Just because Nehru was in '62 caught with his pants down (both literally and figuratively)., does not mean we have been always caught with our pants down. For eg.: 1967 Nathu La.


It is astonishing the way the incompetence and messing with the armed forces and international relations post 1947 led to a carefully planned Chinese butchery of Indian forces and pricking of Indian ego. Even more astounding is the manner in which all the mistakes were spun into a story of Chinese attacking innocent Indians for which we should weep forever. So many costly errors were made and our abject defeat and tragic loss of lives were a direct result of those errors.

I have no intention of being thankful to the Chinese but 1962 was a wake up call like no other and our later successes were a direct consequence of lessons learned in 1962.

I still think it would help if Indians got a better education about wars and the military (apart from better history lessons). It is not our fault if or educators were biased/underinformed, but this is a situation that needs changing. It seems to me that a Nehruvian tendency to "see no evil" in all nations and maintain peace and tranquillity has stopped Indians from educating our children about the harsh realities of geopolitics and war. One of the worst things that is repeated - even by Modi - is that India does not desire and inch of any other nation's territory. This statement is stupid because it sends a signal to Indians that we will never attack but only defend' The word "defence" for what the armed forces do does not help. It is rhetoric that hides reality like "religion of peace"

In actual fact military people tasked with fighting know damn well that attacking and chewing off bits of enemy territory is fundamental to all wars. Whether we think it is possible or not the Indian armed forces are not going to be "sitting and defending but not coveting an inch" if the Chinese start pouring in. That aside - one of my personal goals here is to point out that there are only some areas of the border from where the Chinese can come "in strength". There may be other areas which put parts of Tibet near the border amenable to liberation by us. But without looking at the difficulties the Chinese face and the difficulties our armed forces face in those regions a simple bean count of assets and money spent is not a predictor of the outcome of any conflict.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby sanjaykumar » 19 Jan 2017 08:56

UlanBatori wrote:
sanjaykumar wrote:Marx's dialectic will ensure that PRC goes the same way as CCCP.
The Mumbai slum dweller as more first world rights than the wealthiest Chinese, the Chinese dare not permit political freedoms unlike Gorbachev. The dissolution of China won't be as civilised as that of the USSR.


Serious question: Is this still true in China? (If it is, there is hope. :mrgreen: )



Wealthy Chinese have privileges, civilised people have rights.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Deans » 19 Jan 2017 09:38

rohitvats wrote:
Deans wrote: <SNIP>If the PLA looks for a quick land grab in a short sharp war (after a slow build up of tension and some salami slicing, during which they bring up reinforcements, while we have chai-biskoot sessions) then a quick 2 division thrust against our brigade, into the relatively flat area around DBO may be possible<SNIP>


- Which are these two PLA divisions?
- Where are they stationed and what is there distance from DBO?
- How long will they take to reach their jump-stations opposite DBO?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do answer the above questions because I really want to understand how this scenario has been conjured up.


Rohit, I've conjured up that scenario over a beer. In all seriousness though, my concern (I hope I am wrong) is that the movement of PLA divisions
is probably not tracked as actively as Pak army formations. Does the army regularly war-game these scenarios (with a competent `Red team' constantly coming up with new but realistic possibilities), or is there a vested interest in suggesting that we cannot do anything other than defend against the 30 odd PLA divisions that can be summoned at short notice, unless we have far more resources (as mentioned by for e.g. a paper by Maj Gen GD Bakshi, whom I have interacted with)

If I was a PLA general tasked with planning a land grab in DBO how would I go about it ? Those PLA divisions that are acclimitised, are several hundred km further from the border then IA divisions. They can travel faster than the IA, thanks to better transport infrastructure. However, they can only win the race to the border, if they start earlier and move in secrecy. I believe that could happen. Once they are discovered (which will invariably be during a period of tension with Pak), does IA react by moving up our troops, or does the political leadership try to resolve through chai-biskoot, without doing provocative things like moving army formations to counter the PLA. I don't have answers, but I hope someone does.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 19 Jan 2017 09:55

Deans - our Elint capabilities and Sat image capabilities are not advertised at all - but the Chinese are being watched 24x7 . The idea that "we will lose anyway" is not an armed forces one. The political leadership find out what is happening at the border only via the armed forces.

Where are the acclimatized Chinese troops stationed exactly? Because - the border in Aksai Chin is nowhere less than 200 km from the point the main highway enters Aksai Chin and much of those 200 km appear to be kutcha roads. There are areas where the road crosses streams with no bridge and images of trucks show clouds of dust behind them.

The other question is how would tanks make it down to the lowlands of J&K from DBO. Which of the existing roads allow such movement?

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Deans » 19 Jan 2017 10:07

shiv wrote:The other question is how would tanks make it down to the lowlands of J&K from DBO. Which of the existing roads allow such movement?


I don't see the Chinese being able to move beyond DBO, as the terrain would pose too many problems. The Shyok river and mountains
would probably be the outer limit of any planned foray into DBO. That's why I spoke of a limited land grab.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby disha » 19 Jan 2017 11:51

Deans wrote:Those PLA divisions that are acclimitised, are several hundred km further from the border then IA divisions. They can travel faster than the IA, thanks to better transport infrastructure. However, they can only win the race to the border, if they start earlier and move in secrecy. I believe that could happen.


Anything could happen., the future is unpredictable.

But can you elaborate how the bolded part could happen? Just stating that it could happen does not mean it will happen.

So please elaborate how 10 heavy armed divisions of PLA with support infrastructure moves undetected. Keep in mind that India has the largest constellation of Earth-Observing satellites in the world (yes - that is a fact. If you want to dispute it., take it up with ISRO and not me).

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Deans » 19 Jan 2017 12:07

disha wrote:
Deans wrote:Those PLA divisions that are acclimitised, are several hundred km further from the border then IA divisions. They can travel faster than the IA, thanks to better transport infrastructure. However, they can only win the race to the border, if they start earlier and move in secrecy. I believe that could happen.


Anything could happen., the future is unpredictable.

But can you elaborate how the bolded part could happen? Just stating that it could happen does not mean it will happen.

So please elaborate how 10 heavy armed divisions of PLA with support infrastructure moves undetected. Keep in mind that India has the largest constellation of Earth-Observing satellites in the world (yes - that is a fact. If you want to dispute it., take it up with ISRO and not me).


I've said 2 PLA divisions near DBO, not 10. I've assumed they start earlier than ours (which they will, if they want to initiate hostilities), but will be detected at some point, which is when we decide if we want to make counter moves or not.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Lalmohan » 19 Jan 2017 14:53

Shiv - since you are the expert on google maps - you should look for geographical choke points on the N-S axis down from the mountains. these are natural defences where an opposing army has to break through. the NE valleys particularly fit this mode. I am not sure about Ladakh - but there are only so many ways you can get there...; such choke points - if stoutly defended and backed with artillery and air power can hold up the whole show since the invaders do not have any outflanking options

incidentally, along the ganges between Bihar and Bengal lies another such choke point. all invaders basically need to pass through a small gap between the different hills - this has been historically important for India

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Rishi Verma » 19 Jan 2017 17:40

For all the huffing and puffing the polluted hot air filled chinese panda is doing, check out kinmen island ... It's less than 10km from chinese city of xiamen in fujian province... guess what guys.. It's under control of taiwan hahahahha.. Ok shivJi's question on thread title has been answered hahahaha... Oops I spilled my lassi.

chinks Chinese are getting nuked if they attack India because of no-first-use policy of conventional weapons hahahaha
Last edited by ramana on 19 Jan 2017 20:12, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Strike through . ramana

Rakesh
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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Rakesh » 19 Jan 2017 22:26

Chinese Aircraft Carrier Can Sail Into Indian Ocean At Will, Says Top US Commander
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/chinese-aircraft-carrier-can-sail-into-indian-ocean-at-will-says-top-us-commander-1650420

In the words of Shivji...should we shiver or die laughing?

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Lalmohan » 19 Jan 2017 22:33

^^^ to be honest, once I pass my yacht master, so can I! :-)

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby UlanBatori » 19 Jan 2017 22:33

That's just a statement that they have figured out boat propulsion, hain? Good for them. Even Indian catamarans can sail into Indian Ocean at will.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Rakesh » 19 Jan 2017 22:35

are we being coerced into signing CISMOA and other agreements? Remember President Eisenhower's speech about the military industrial complex? This is redux.


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