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Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 29 Jun 2017 09:04

vasu raya wrote:
Always had a question if we had profiled their army deployed along the LAC or in PoK and how many are from single child families vs what we see in the PoK where is there is oversupply of cannon fodder

This is an excellent question and if the Indian Intel agencies have not done it, it is high time they did. It would be valuable military information

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Prasad » 29 Jun 2017 11:02

Also as an aside, this 'nobody goes to tibet but pla and its tough to get there' etc etc isn't really true. There are regular tours to china from all western countries that include trips to tibet via train and flights. Tons of blogs on this which give valuable information to one who is seeking it.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby yensoy » 29 Jun 2017 11:45

You make good points Shiv. The point about "no shot has been fired" is basically that the threshold for artillery is quite high and by the time this is reached, the damage would have already been done by the Chinese ferrying in tons of equipment and personnel using this airport. Unlike a similar situation with Pak where artillery to damage cross border facilities is the daily regimen.

Don't forget that Lhasa was armed in the lead up to 1962 with material supplied to it via Kolkata.

Having said that, there isn't much we can do about it unless hostilities kick in, apart from monitoring and ensuring that we have guns directed at the airport, facilities and roads leading to them.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby rsingh » 29 Jun 2017 16:37

What will be our reaction if Bakis "LEASE" one of their airport to China? It is a real possibility.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 29 Jun 2017 16:46

yensoy wrote:You make good points Shiv. The point about "no shot has been fired" is basically that the threshold for artillery is quite high and by the time this is reached, the damage would have already been done by the Chinese ferrying in tons of equipment and personnel using this airport.

That is an assumption and the assumption should be taken to its logical conclusion and I will try and do that since such assumptions are frequent on BRF but no one takes it further.

Suppose we find that the Chinese are moving in tons and tons of material and thousands of men via this airport (and other airports) to the border. This will set off a reactive Indian mobilization of forces at the border. We too will position thousands more men and prepare air bases and defences as a response to what are obvious Chinese preparations for war. The movement of every one of those Chinese columns would be tracked and responses planned for that. The Chinese would require a few weeks to get forces to a level where they could attack and cause serious damage - and we would have to be ready for a robust response. This would lead to a situation where war could break out at any time. There may be skirmishes. In 1962 and 67 the Chinese used mortar. In 1967 we responded with artillery.

But the minute war breaks out - any Chinese aircraft 15 km from the border landing in Nyingchi would be shot down. What we need to worry about is not the flights into Nyingchi as war preparations go on but the tonnage that is coming into Lhasa from the Golmud-Lhasa railway line. Taking out Nyingchi would be easy but the main bulk will come from the railway line. That railway line and the source at Golmud and the destination in Lhasa will also have to be taken out. There is nothing we can do about that as things stand. If they start mobilizing they will likely not advertise it from an airbase next to the border - but simply start pouring in men and material on the railway line which is what we need to watch. In case of hot war if we don't respond with air power I guarantee that we will be fckued

Of course we have the option of sitting with thumb in musharraf as Nehru did while China prepared for war. But then again the extent of Chinese preparedness was either not known or what was known was not shared and what was shared was ignored in 1962.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby darshhan » 29 Jun 2017 23:39

If I was incharge of chinese military decision making, I would first transport ammunition and missiles, establishing immense caches for years. The next would be various platforms and equipment. I will make sure that bulk of the soldiers are mobilized last lets say 2 months before active combat operations.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 30 Jun 2017 06:21

darshhan wrote:If I was incharge of chinese military decision making, I would first transport ammunition and missiles, establishing immense caches for years. The next would be various platforms and equipment. I will make sure that bulk of the soldiers are mobilized last lets say 2 months before active combat operations.

This is exactly what they have done. But consumables like food and fuel will have to be shipped in and soldiers will need time for acclimatization. A lot of Chinese parents will lose the only son they have as they get old. Should be good for "stability and happiness" in China

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby ArjunPandit » 30 Jun 2017 07:24

Just to add to some dhoti shiver,
in the '62 war the thag la/dhola conflict began around june time only, eventually culminating into the war in Oct.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby sanjaykumar » 30 Jun 2017 07:28

These depots must be underground, Tibet is open to inspection,.

There has to be infrastructure eg railhead to all weather roads then parking areas for dozens of trucks. Possibly with barracks above ground or simply just parking lots with not much visible. However they will have security fences and watch towers. They need to be identified.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 30 Jun 2017 07:39

ArjunPandit wrote:Just to add to some dhoti shiver,
in the '62 war the thag la/dhola conflict began around june time only, eventually culminating into the war in Oct.

Boss they started building the Aksai Chin road in 1952 IIRC. Bandit Nehru reacted in 1962

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby sanjaykumar » 30 Jun 2017 07:56

Historical revisionism is tempting, taking on the Chinese in 1952 might have meant fighting them in Madras rather than Assam.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby darshhan » 30 Jun 2017 08:09

By the way just to give context both Tibet and xinjiang are absolutely huge areas. Tibet is 3/4th(75%) of India.likewise xinjiang is almost 50% of India. Together both of them have a combined area larger than India.

Gives you an idea of the vast distances the chinese logistical system will have to traverse to fight India in a hostile terrain with a even more hostile native population.

In a substantially stretched military confrontation I would say, it will be India's war to lose. And I am talking of today, not when we have 100s of LCAs and 10000 nirbhays and 20 trillion dollar economy etc.
Last edited by darshhan on 30 Jun 2017 08:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby darshhan » 30 Jun 2017 08:12

What we need to do is to expand our options. Training and outfitting 20000 natives for guerrilla ops wouldnt be a bad start.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Karthik S » 30 Jun 2017 08:31

Pigeon rightly said in a conf, best way to tacke cheen is through missiles, need to mass produce nirbhays, brahmos, all SAM varieties like sausages as Soviets said once. Plenty of missiles to cover 1500 km from our borders, deny them space to land, road to travel, place to store. And one of their main life line artery is shipping routes in IOR, we desperately need SSKs and SSNs for that.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby sanjaykumar » 30 Jun 2017 09:32

In a substantially stretched military confrontation I would say, it will be India's war to lose. And I am talking of today, not when we have 100s of LCAs and 10000 nirbhays and 20 trillion dollar economy etc.


You may be right, it is the Chinese media and by extension the CCP that is hysterical. Indian media and GOI seem to be sanguine about what may be coming.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Prem » 30 Jun 2017 09:43

sanjaykumar wrote:In a substantially stretched military confrontation I would say, it will be India's war to lose. And I am talking of today, not when we have 100s of LCAs and 10000 nirbhays and 20 trillion dollar economy etc.
You may be right, it is the Chinese media and by extension the CCP that is hysterical. Indian media and GOI seem to be sanguine about what may be coming.


For Once 1/2 Paki Shukla said it right that Indian silence is the silence of the winner.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby sanjaykumar » 30 Jun 2017 10:40

Can you point me to where he said this?

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Iyersan » 30 Jun 2017 11:04

Will there be a war? All scenarios point to Bhutan being the flashpoint

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Singha » 30 Jun 2017 11:27

I think Bhutans time as a peaceful buffer country has sadly ended. they will have to pick a side or be open to slicing and dicing in the north. they will have to expend some money and time and people to militarizing their north border, which is mountainous for the most part and not east to get to.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Singha » 30 Jun 2017 11:29

if there is a war India will go through bhutan too and take away the piece of tibet that is boxed between sikkim and bhutan. the loss of 100x50=5000 sq km of land in full media glare from our side fed into western MSM will be the biggest loss of face for cheen since tiananmen square.

Xi might need to pin the blame on PLA generals and purge some of them to save his own skin. there is no question of indian defeat in the tri junction area. i think they have a bare 1 base in xigase and another in lhasa for airport while i could name 10 bigger ones on indian side, with railways in support. and massive cantonments all over...some are so large they could not get land in one place and are strung out over miles and miles like the red horn division which is based from changsari near guwahati over a 50km stretch to rangiya and beyond. their motor pool is jaw dropping - i remember it as a kid going on the NH to my mothers village.

its a 5 min flight from bagdogra and hashimara for tactical aircraft to savage their logistics in the triangle.

and we have enough fighters onsite to kill anything that flies 100km north of the border.

https://www.google.co.in/maps/@27.68937 ... 2538,8.15z

they are weak in theater and ripe for a good humiliation and punishment.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Karthik S » 30 Jun 2017 11:32

As a protectorate of Bhutan, we should station our troops there, a thousand or so should send the message. A pair or so of MKIs deliberately flying high so that cheen can get a message.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Singha » 30 Jun 2017 11:33

the king of bhutan has to make the call in best interests of his people and his own future. china has closed the middle road and forced him to choose.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby sum » 30 Jun 2017 11:39

Karthik S wrote:As a protectorate of Bhutan, we should station our troops there, a thousand or so should send the message. A pair or so of MKIs deliberately flying high so that cheen can get a message.

I believe all this are already in place. IIRC, the Bhutan zone comes under ENC of IA

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby deejay » 30 Jun 2017 11:41

Singha wrote:if there is a war India will go through bhutan too and take away the piece of tibet that is boxed between sikkim and bhutan. the loss of 100x50=5000 sq km of land in full media glare from our side fed into western MSM will be the biggest loss of face for cheen since tiananmen square.

Xi might need to pin the blame on PLA generals and purge some of them to save his own skin. there is no question of indian defeat in the tri junction area. i think they have a bare 1 base in xigase and another in lhasa for airport while i could name 10 bigger ones on indian side, with railways in support. and massive cantonments all over. its a 5 min flight from bagdogra and hashimara for tactical aircraft to savage their logistics in the triangle.

https://www.google.co.in/maps/@27.68937 ... 2538,8.15z


I am not sure of the present day but back in my time Bhutanese cadets trained with us at NDA. Then they went and joined Royal Bhutan Army. I am still in touch with some.

The interaction of the services are much deeper.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Singha » 30 Jun 2017 11:57

i think BRDO helps them in building and maintaining the roads and our mission there called IMTRAC(??) rotates people in and out including perhaps SF units for familiarization. but there is hardly any publicity of our dealings with the thunder dragon kingdom.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby pattnayak » 30 Jun 2017 12:06

There was an article in The Diplomat too a few years ago.

http://thediplomat.com/2014/11/bhutan-the-indian-armys-front-line/

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Singha » 30 Jun 2017 12:17

^^ i remember that and based my comment about SF on that but did not recall the URL. thanks for posting.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shashankk » 30 Jun 2017 12:18

Russian version of this incidence.

Tension Erupts as Chinese Troops Enter Indian Territory, Destroy Bunkers

A major scuffle has erupted along the India-China border as Chinese troops entered the Indian state of Sikkim and destroyed two Indian bunkers. Chinese troops also engaged in a fight with Indian troops, who are guarding the border at the location.

“The face-off has been going on in Doka La general area in Sikkim for the past 10 days and the Chinese troops have also stopped a batch of pilgrims proceeding on Kailash Mansarovar Yatra,” Indian defense ministry told to news agency PTI. Doka La is located at the tri-junction of Sikkim-Bhutan-Tibet. The situation remains tense despite a flag meeting held between senior army officers of both sides on June 20.


https://sputniknews.com/asia/201706261054985626-china-india-troops-territory/

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby rahulm » 30 Jun 2017 12:21

deejay wrote:
I am not sure of the present day but back in my time Bhutanese cadets trained with us at NDA. Then they went and joined Royal Bhutan Army. I am still in touch with some.

The interaction of the services are much deeper.


I remember this too. Many Bhutanese cadets would land up at Mr Bhutia's house - the only Professor of Tibetan at the NDA and since he and my dad were good friends the cadets would also land up at our place. My dad and and mum loved hosting them. They were very gentle, unassuming and polite to a fault.


Eventually, I travelled through Bhutan and it remains one of my best travel experiences.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Vikas » 30 Jun 2017 13:00

Is a war coming on the North Eastern Front ?
What if Chinese are drunk on their own self assumed invincibility and poor India of snake charmers myth ?

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby gauravsh » 30 Jun 2017 13:14

Vikas wrote:Is a war coming on the North Eastern Front ?

I doubt that. It may take longer, but de-escalation will happen. Was talking to one of my friends posted in Silliguri, he admitted to greater number of people being pushed up.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Karthik S » 30 Jun 2017 13:19

They are enemies with almost every neighbor, why would they pick up a fight with the strongest one, that too for a territory that nobody is going to even step on.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Vikas » 30 Jun 2017 13:27

^ My guess, They want to bash up the strongest neighbor to signal their arrival on the world stage of goons and bullies else people will just take their money in the name of OBOR and show middle finger.
Moreover Bharat not joining CPEC has suddenly put a investment of $50Billion in red and frustrations are coming out.

gauravsh: We may not see a full fledged war like 1962 but a skirmish lasting few days can not be ruled out. I think Indian Army too is ready to put these chinese verbal bullying to an end.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Marten » 30 Jun 2017 13:37

gauravsh wrote:
Vikas wrote:Is a war coming on the North Eastern Front ?

I doubt that. It may take longer, but de-escalation will happen. Was talking to one of my friends posted in Silliguri, he admitted to greater number of people being pushed up.

One would caution BRFites against sharing any information (even as trivial as train quotas running full) in the EC.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby gauravsh » 30 Jun 2017 13:50

Marten wrote:One would caution BRFites against sharing any information (even as trivial as train quotas running full) in the EC.

I did exercised restrain in what i was posting. Anyways point noted !!

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Prasad » 30 Jun 2017 14:48

MEA statement on this event - http://www.mea.gov.in/press-releases.ht ... oklam_Area

Recent Developments in Doklam Area
June 30, 2017
The Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs made a statement on 26 June 2017 alleging that Indian border troops crossed the boundary line in the Sikkim sector of the China-India boundary and entered Chinese territory. This has been reiterated since then in other Chinese official briefings.
The facts of the matter are as follows:
i.On 16 June, a PLA construction party entered the Doklam area and attempted to construct a road. It is our understanding that a Royal Bhutan Army patrol attempted to dissuade them from this unilateral activity. The Ambassador of the Royal Government of Bhutan (RGOB) has publicly stated that it lodged a protest with the Chinese Government through their Embassy in New Delhi on 20 June.

ii.Yesterday, the Foreign Ministry of Bhutan has also issued a statement underlining that the construction of the road inside Bhutanese territory is a direct violation of the 1988 and 1998 agreements between Bhutan and China and affects the process of demarcating the boundary between these two countries. They have urged a return to the status quo as before 16 June 2017.

iii.In keeping with their tradition of maintaining close consultation on matters of mutual interest, RGOB and the Government of India have been in continuous contact through the unfolding of these developments.

iv.In coordination with the RGOB, Indian personnel, who were present at general area Doka La, approached the Chinese construction party and urged them to desist from changing the status quo. These efforts continue.

v.The matter has been under discussion between India and China at the diplomatic level in the Foreign Ministries since then, both in New Delhi and Beijing. It was also the subject of a Border Personnel Meeting at Nathu La on 20 June.

India is deeply concerned at the recent Chinese actions and has conveyed to the Chinese Government that such construction would represent a significant change of status quo with serious security implications for India.
In this context, the Indian side has underlined that the two Governments had in 2012 reached agreement that the tri-junction boundary points between India, China and third countries will be finalized in consultation with the concerned countries. Any attempt, therefore, to unilaterally determine tri-junction points is in violation of this understanding.
Where the boundary in the Sikkim sector is concerned, India and China had reached an understanding also in 2012 reconfirming their mutual agreement on the "basis of the alignment”. Further discussions regarding finalization of the boundary have been taking place under the Special Representatives framework.
It is essential that all parties concerned display utmost restraint and abide by their respective bilateral understandings not to change the status quo unilaterally. It is also important that the consensus reached between India and China through the Special Representatives process is scrupulously respected by both sides.
India has consistently taken a positive approach to the settlement of its own boundary with China, along with the associated issue of the tri-junctions.
India cherishes peace and tranquillity in the India-China border areas. It has not come easily. Both sides have worked hard to establish institutional framework to discuss all issues to ensure peace and tranquillity in the India-China border areas. India is committed to working with China to find peaceful resolution of all issues in the border areas through dialogue.

New Delhi
30 June 2017

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shashankk » 30 Jun 2017 16:48

China asks India to respect side of border, pull out troops

Source:Global Times Published: 2017/6/29 21:03:39

China on Thursday asked India to respect China's sovereignty and withdraw troops which entered the Chinese side of the Sikkim section of the countries' border.

India should withdraw its troops to avoid "increasing intensions" further, Chinese foreign ministry spokesperson Lu Kang said on Thursday.

Lu added that China has lodged several solemn representations to India after the incident, and both sides are maintaining smooth diplomatic communications.

"We urge India to withdraw troops that crossed the border and return to the Indian side. This is also the start of the solution, and foundation of any meaningful dialogue between both sides," Lu said.

Indian Army chief Gen Bipin Rawat shrugged off reports of a recent standoff between the Chinese People's Liberation Army and Indian troops in Sikkim, saying "there was no incursion into our territory. I don't know where the visuals are from, but they are not from Sikkim," the Hindustan Times reported Wednesday.

"His remarks show that the previous Indian media reports are fake," Lu said.

Lu said that the truth is that Indian border troops crossed the China-India boundary at the Sikkim section and entered Chinese territory.

The Donglang (Doklam) area belongs to China, not Bhutan and India, which has been proven by history and law, Lu told a regular conference on Wednesday, adding that "China's road construction in the Donglang area, which is our territory, is legitimate, and any other party has no right to interfere."

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1054179.shtml

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby DrRatnadip » 01 Jul 2017 16:10

https://www.thequint.com/opinion/2017/0 ... y-surprise

Nice article about past sino indian skirmishes..

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Karthik S » 01 Jul 2017 16:26

shashankk wrote:China asks India to respect side of border, pull out troops

Source:Global Times Published: 2017/6/29 21:03:39

China on Thursday asked India to respect China's sovereignty and withdraw troops which entered the Chinese side of the Sikkim section of the countries' border.

India should withdraw its troops to avoid "increasing intensions" further, Chinese foreign ministry spokesperson Lu Kang said on Thursday.

Lu added that China has lodged several solemn representations to India after the incident, and both sides are maintaining smooth diplomatic communications.

"We urge India to withdraw troops that crossed the border and return to the Indian side. This is also the start of the solution, and foundation of any meaningful dialogue between both sides," Lu said.

Indian Army chief Gen Bipin Rawat shrugged off reports of a recent standoff between the Chinese People's Liberation Army and Indian troops in Sikkim, saying "there was no incursion into our territory. I don't know where the visuals are from, but they are not from Sikkim," the Hindustan Times reported Wednesday.

"His remarks show that the previous Indian media reports are fake," Lu said.

Lu said that the truth is that Indian border troops crossed the China-India boundary at the Sikkim section and entered Chinese territory.

The Donglang (Doklam) area belongs to China, not Bhutan and India, which has been proven by history and law, Lu told a regular conference on Wednesday, adding that "China's road construction in the Donglang area, which is our territory, is legitimate, and any other party has no right to interfere."

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1054179.shtml


Have tables turned already, wonder what's their munna thinking about now.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Iyersan » 01 Jul 2017 18:21

I don't think the matter would escalate.


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