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Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 19 Apr 2017 18:37

Image shows a military site about 30 km as the crow flies from Niti pass of Himachal. The road distance is longer. It shows defensive zig-zag walls and a defensive wall cum trench facing the approach area. There is also what appears to be the opening of an underground shelter just adjacent to the forward wall. Bottom center shows a helipad. A water tank on in the middle right also shows solar panels nearby. Solar power panels are common among Chinese military installations in forward areas of Tibet.
Image



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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Liu » 20 Apr 2017 10:32


korea was ruled directly by china for 500 years by during Han/Wei/Jin dynasty.

aftet that,it was ruled by vassels of china(korea had been china's vassel until 1895.)

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Paul » 20 Apr 2017 10:41

Under Kublai....

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Liu » 20 Apr 2017 10:59

Paul wrote:Under Kublai....

so it was,before kublai and after that.

3 states(japan,korea and vietnam)all belong to sinic world and sub~culture born from sinic civilization.

of 3,vietnam is the most close,korea is the second close one .

Japan has never been ruled directly by china,but accepted the title endorsed by chinese emperors during mid_age.

vietnam was ruled directly by china for 1000+ years(even longer than Yunnan province) ,and became self~dominated kingdom(still vassel of china) in 10th century

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Garooda » 20 Apr 2017 19:30

Carving one town/city at a time

Taking offence to China renaming six places in Arunachal Pradesh, India today said inventing names of states of a neighbour does not make illegal occupation legal.

Reacting to the issue, Spokesperson in the Ministry of External Affairs Gopal Baglay said Arunachal Pradesh is an integral part of India.

He said "renaming or inventing names of states of your neighbour do not make illegal occupation as legal".

China yesterday had announced that it has "standardised" official names for six places in the Northeastern state and termed the provocative move as a "legitimate action".

The Chinese move came days after Beijing lodged strong protests with India over the Dalai Lama's visit to the frontier state.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby ArjunPandit » 20 Apr 2017 19:42


Didnt someone remind him that US was ruled by UK long back. Wait for Liu's grandson to claim Korea and Vietnam quoting DT

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby NRao » 20 Apr 2017 19:45

Lui,

So,

United Nations was launched in 1945.

Islam in around 570 ad

Christ 0.0 start of .......

Buddha 623 bc.

The world according to Max Muller started around 3000 bc.

Kashmir around 5000 bc, if not more

So, where do you exactly want us to restart history based on Chinese fiction?

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby vina » 20 Apr 2017 19:55

Taking offence to China renaming six places in Arunachal Pradesh, India today said inventing names of states of a neighbour does not make illegal occupation legal.

Reacting to the issue, Spokesperson in the Ministry of External Affairs Gopal Baglay said Arunachal Pradesh is an integral part of India.

He said "renaming or inventing names of states of your neighbour do not make illegal occupation as legal".

China yesterday had announced that it has "standardised" official names for six places in the Northeastern state and termed the provocative move as a "legitimate action".

The Chinese move came days after Beijing lodged strong protests with India over the Dalai Lama's visit to the frontier state.

Yawn
Start referring the so called Xinjiang by its original name as the locals call it as Eastern Turkestan and put back the original names as in Tibetan and uighur for all the places in China.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby sudarshan » 20 Apr 2017 19:59

Large parts of China were also under the Europeans or Japanese. So that's historical precedent for them to claim China, right? But of course, that falls under the category of "erasing centuries of humiliation."

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 20 Apr 2017 20:58

great article from 2013. By no means outdated.

India’s Military Strategy Vis a Vis China

“When there is everything to fear, be unafraid. When without resources, depend on resourcefulness”, - Sun Tsu.


A Legacy of Dispute
The territorial dispute in the Trans-Himalayan Region is legacy of the eternal societal dispensation that prevailed over this vast swathe of high altitude desert when this land provided for sustenance to the tribes living on its periphery by way of cattle grazing, mining and transit infrastructure for trans-Himalayan trade. That was the state till the mid-19th Century, when commenced a ‘game’ of ‘power-projection’ to control the geographical properties of the regions of Tibet and East Turkmenistan, thus vitiating its pristine tranquility. British India and Russia were the ambitious participants in this power-play, with Tibet-China as the common denominator. It was therefore to be expected that given their cultural compulsions, there would be disputes amongst the contemporary regimes in Tibet, China and India.

The purpose of this paper is to argue that Sino-Indian military confrontation has a hint of inevitability, unless the cost of armed conflict is rendered unacceptable to the revisionist party. Further, it is reiterated that it could be possible for India, the weaker party, to deter aggression across the Indo-Tibet Border by adopting a strategy that is ingenious and free of fixated encumbrances.

A Triumvirate of Trouble

The first of the triumvirate, China, is culturally assertive of her ‘superior civilisation’ and an instinctive hegemony. This culture must invariably manifest in any strong regime in Beijing considering as her property ‘by right’, any territory that at any point of time was under any form of control of any of the empires that reigned from Chang’an, Nanking or Peking. China’s claim over Tibet, and by default over the Aksai Chin and the Tawang Tract, and by further extrapolation, over the entire Northern Ladakh and Arunachal Pradesh respectively, was, in hindsight, a foregone conclusion, which leaders of independent India may have failed to visualise.

Thus, with their institutional mastery over stratagems, the first step Communist China took within a year of seizing state-power was to annex Tibet. Next, in step with a steady military build up, China contested the Indo-Tibet Border, then confronted India’s so called ‘Forward Policy’ and finally in 1962, launched an offensive campaign across the McMahon Line and the Kun Lun Mountains. The following decades saw China continue with the build up of strategic infrastructure in Tibet and modernisation of the People’s Liberation Army (PLA). Confidence gained by progress of such ventures has, since past few years, caused Beijing, in a repeat of 1950’s, to intensify its so far subdued claims over the territories of Arunachal Pradesh and Ladakh more and more assertively. Emboldened assertiveness is also evident in the unilateral promulgation of her ‘sovereignty’ over the Aksai Chin, annexation of the Shaksgam Valley and PLA’s nonchalant march into Pakistan Occupied Kashmir. Expectedly, the charade of her protestations over the internal matters in Arunachal Pradesh continues, obviously with an intent to legitimise by incessant repetition, a claim which may be dismissed today but would become a casus belli some day. In some other politico-diplomatic issues too, China’s assertiveness, bordering at arrogance, is palpable. Indeed, there are seeds of trouble in the Sino-Indian relationship.

The role of the central party of the contention, Tibet, is no less significant. Traditionally, Tibet has been as aggressive in conduct of her policies as her military power has permitted, and she has not failed to chastise Chinese as well as Indian intransigence whenever she could. Therefore, it may be expected that Tibet too, if and when the opportune moment comes, may raise territorial questions. That is but a lesson of history.

We may thus observe that a confrontationist situation along the Indo-Tibet Border is expected to continue in the foreseeable future. As a corollary, Indian strategists must look to foster a situation which motivates Beijing to seek solutions to her ambitions through political rather than military means.

The Military Equation

There is no way India can hope to match China’s military power in the foreseeable future. Further, as evidenced by her past actions, China is unlikely to be dissuaded by the niceties of ‘soft power’ alone. The best India can hope to do therefore is to deter China from engaging in military aggression. And for that, the Indian armed forces have to conceive a strategy that would achieve that end within the means at hand, and organise accordingly.

The mandate is daunting. But taking cue from military history and teachings of great masters of military strategy, it might be possible for the Indian armed forces to devise effective measures to prevent China from achieving her objective of aggression. Indeed, history is replete with instances when the strong have given wide berth to the weaker adversary, and when yet engaged, the weak have triumphed over the strong1. Let us then see as to how can this mission might be accomplished in the Indian context.

We may begin with the most potent weapon of war-fighting: the ‘mind’ – that is a potent integration of intellect and ingenuity with strategic and tactical acumen which empowers military leaders to translate adversities into advantages.

Imposition of an Asymmetric War

We are aware that the concept of ‘asymmetry’ is as old as warfare itself. Military commanders down the ages have invested in manipulating the rules of armed engagement in a manner as to generate tactical advantages of their strengths while exploiting the adversary’s limitations. Obviously, it is usual to impose asymmetry upon the opponent by fielding greater numbers of troops and weaponry. However, history teaches us that there are other ingenuous ways – some tangible (quantitative, technological, logistic) and others intangible (qualitative, tactical, psychological) - to achieve that end2. The PLA too, faced with prospects of conflict with the all-powerful US military forces on the Taiwan issue, has been propagating her version of asymmetric warfare - she illustrates the idea by a dramatic description : “Assasin’s Mace”.

In view of the PLA’s overwhelming military superiority, the recourse adopted by the Indian armed forces must aim at finding strategic and tactical ingenuity to negate the advantages of such superiority. The point to ponder here is that can such a recourse be in the realm of possibility? The answer is offered by what one of our finest generals had to state. Writing for the ‘Seminar’ in early 1962, General Thimmayya stated :

“I cannot … envisage India taking on China in an open conflict on its own. China’s present strength … exceeds our resources a hundred fold, …we could not hope to match China in the foreseeable future… .

The country is a mass of mountains right up to the highest ridges of the Himalayas. The passes are practically impossible for over six months except for the men and animals, and that too with difficulty. China is, therefore, deprived of the use of its overwhelming superiority … . This is where we should make full use of our manpower and light equipment … .

If the Chinese attack us with the intention of recovering territory which they believe to be theirs, we must meet them in those regions with commandos and highly equipped and fast moving infantry. If the Chinese penetrate the Himalayas … , we must be in a position to take advantage of our superior fire power and manoeuvrability to defeat them and at the same time continue to harass their lines of communications by the use of commandos and guerrillas …”.

Of course, the General was thinking of fighting a war that played mismatch to PLA’s tactical strengths while permitting exposure of its vulnerabilities3.

Let us then examine certain core aspects of strategic asymmetry in the Sino-Indian context. We may begin with the fundamental factor of war: terrain.

Leveraging the Terrain

We are aware of the much lamented ‘tactical advantages’ enjoyed by the PLA on the open Tibetan Plateau. But we are also conscious of the fact that every item of PLA’s war wherewithal on the Indo-Tibet frontline must be carted over 1500 kilometers from their logistic hubs at Lhasa and Kashgarh, which in turn must be stocked from central China, a further 2000 kilometers away. The entire logistic connectivity by road, rail, pipeline and air depends upon tenuous lines of communication and static staging yards, all situated over a terrain that is completely open, devoid of local resources and subject to such extreme conditions as it must obtain at 4300 meters of average altitude and sub-zero cold almost throughout the year. Even if China has engineered her transportation capacity to 24000 tons a day and therefore stated to be able to build up 30 divisions, including formations already in place, in 30 days, and sustain this force in war indefinitely, such theoretical calculations may be valid under ‘test conditions’, in practice this will invariably not be so. No doubt, the whole system of induction and sustenance for PLA’s field forces in war would be ripe for interdiction by air power and special operations.

On the Indian side, the terrain south of the 4300 to 5400 meter high Himalayan passes, constricted and snow-bound most of the year, is characterised by razor-sharp ridgelines, steep slopes and narrow, gorge-like valleys generally running North to South. The Indian logistic installations are between 350 to 400 kilometers in depth, and therefore, in terms of turn around time, comparable to that of the PLA in Tibet. Road axes connecting Indian foothills to the Indo-Tibet Border, being aligned more or less along the narrow valley floors, are extremely difficult to interdict by air or ground fire; these are targetable only in some stretches and even then require super-skills, high-technology and load of chance to score effective hits. Notably, scope exists to make such hits even more ineffective by means of modern methods of camouflage, deception and repair.

To undertake offensive operations in such terrain, PLA formations have to confine to constricted valleys that are hemmed-in by successive ridge lines, thus limiting the scope for tactical level lateral manoeuvre. At the operational level, axes of offensive have to remain isolated from each other, while envelopment and turning movement, besides inviting risks of entrapment, would entail such heavy logistic back up as to be prohibitive in terms of resources and time. Further, some distance down the Southern slopes into Indian territory, the terrain closes down to subsume the advantages that heavy weaponry and high-technology might bring to PLA’s offensive. Indeed, the ground is heavily biased towards defensive operations - if conducted with aggressive intent.

We have reasons to believe that mother earth has not been overly supportive of aggression from Tibetan Plateau across the Himalayan Passes into India. Indeed, any PLA offensive across the Indo-Tibet Border has to contend with an adverse terrain anomaly: its build-up and spring-board areas straddle a ground that exposes its war machine to disruption by inhospitable elements as well as air and ground attack, while its offensive across the watershed passes would be beleaguered by a ground that favours classically conducted defensive operations. Indeed, PLA’s offensive across the passes would have to fight ‘friction of terrain’ and ‘tension of logistics’ before engaging Indian forces - with “General Snow” ever ready to cut off its lifeline.

Therefore, even if the PLA commits overwhelming number of formations to its offensives, as to how many of these could actually be employable - along limited, narrow axes, and against successive lines of defences, remains a moot point to consider.

China’s declaration of unilateral ceasefire in 1962 may be seen in this light. Only if Indian leadership had not lost its nerve and continued the state of war, matters would have been different.

PLA’s Susceptibilities

With superior weaponry, missile arsenal, airborne forces, reconnaissance, communication, navigational and logistic capabilities, all of which are under continuous modernisation, we are well aware of PLA’s overwhelming superiority over the Indian Armed Forces. Yet, the current state of Sino-India peace will be better fostered by factoring China’s innate vulnerabilities in order to devise an affordable military deterrence.

Firstly, the ‘hawks’ in the Chinese establishment do not seem to be able to hide their hegemonic instincts till completion of the last phase of her ‘four modernisations’, as Deng Xioaping had advised. They have already started repudiating international norms on diplomatic, territorial, proliferation, economic and human rights issues. Reinforced with her past record of inciting trouble in the neighbourhood, this development has caused China to be seen as a predatory threat by most of her neighbours. In fact, the undercurrent of wariness of China’s military build up is already evident by signs of emergence of common-cause groupings among the Austro-Asian nations - with US participation. Possibly therefore, India’s joint military exercises could gradually be elevated to the status of ‘military co-operation’ and bonded by a corresponding diplomatic understanding. The wise Chinaman certainly realises that in the contemporary international dispensation, such grouping among her target countries cannot be to her advantage. May be that consideration would curb her militaristic urge.

Secondly, build up and war logistics of the PLA could be vulnerable to severe disruptions in Tibet. If they can be rebellious even when under the grip of a ruthless state, the discontented Uyghurs in the North-West and Tibetans in the South-East could also play a highly debilitating role on PLA’s war-effort. Indian Army could leverage this vulnerability of the PLA by means of direct as well as indirect attacks on its rear echelons and thereby choking sustainability of its offensive across the watershed.

Thirdly, even as the modernisation programme imparts quantum empowerment to the PLA, there are intrinsic vulnerabilities too. Having propagated the doctrines of “Informationalisation” and “War Zone Campaign”, it has embarked upon adaptation of unfamiliar and complex concepts and practices of warfare. Therefore, its transition from a manpower intensive, low technology ‘people’s army’ to a modern army of high-technology, heavy weaponry and logistic-intensive formations cannot be free of complex glitches. The fact that its military leadership is relatively inexperienced and yet untested against spirited opposition, adds to the PLA’s burden. These vulnerabilities could afford opportunities to topple PLA’s apple cart in the fog of war.

Fourthly, China is at a stage of ‘wannabe superpower’, when she is precariously open to losing her way by even stray developments, internal or external. Therefore, a conflict that fails to conclude with clear victory within a specified time frame will entail a serious setback to China’s standing. Then there is the tactical vulnerability of the Chumbi Valley as well as across the passes in North Sikkim, Kailash Range and Aksai Chin, which present opportunities of potent riposte. Even if limited, such reverses can besmirch PLA’s success elsewhere. Therefore, in a period when people’s perceptions count, China may be wary of adopting military recourse against a resilient adversary. The complex concoction of time, terrain, counter-tactics and perceptions would not be easy for the PLA to tame in her adventure across the Indo-Tibet Border.

It may be noteworthy that the nuclear angle does not figure in the preceding discussion. This is deliberate. Firstly, because the nuclear doctrine espoused by both China and India - that of ‘No First Use’ - precludes any nuclear exchange. Secondly, should China circumvent her stated position, there is little India can do about it besides retaliation in kind to the extent of her arsenal; and then the script would be different. Lastly, beyond committing soldiers to conduct nuclear drills, Indian policy-makers have not mandated the military institution to nuclear warfare. Therefore, the Indian military hierarchy may not concern itself with what has been deliberately kept out of its orbit as a matter of higher policy of the government.

The preceding discussion leads to the observation that if not diverted from the verve of military preparations, it should be possible for India to build up credible deterrence against military attack by China to settle the contentious border issue. The question, however, is that how may that goal be secured?

The Burden of Indian Armed Forces

It needs no emphasis that China factors military power as a pillar of her politico-diplomatic goals. Accordingly, the PLA enjoys the blessings of China’s visionary leadership and full range of support from the state, mandate in fact, to institute what restructuring and modernisation is necessary to maintain itself at the best state of operational and logistic efficiency. In contrast, in the Indian dispensation, the state apparatus arrogates military-specific policy making even if remaining innocent of what it takes to fight a war. It is under these conditions that the Indian armed forces are expected to deter the PLA, and in the event that China chooses to teach India another ‘lesson’ by recourse to military aggression, defeat that aggression. This is a popular mandate, even if the state may fail to find matching resources to gear up its military institution accordingly. Indian armed forces, therefore, have to devise appropriate strategies within the systemic limitations to strike at the PLA’s vulnerabilities.

Certain indicators to such a possibility may be discussed next.

Taking up on Sun Tsu’s Cue

It may be interesting to fall back upon teachings of the great masters of strategy, including the PLA’s mentor, Sun Tsu:

“Being unconquerable lies with yourself”, Sun Tsu states. Therefore, we may resolve not to accept ‘defeat’ even if military engagements do not go our way. We could be prepared to remain in a state of hostility for months and years till PLA’s great power is assailed, taking in our stride the death and destruction that might befall us. Taking heart from the historical fact that those who refuse to accept defeat, cannot really be defeated, the nation may refuse to conclude the struggle unless it is on its terms. Our expertise in cyber and psychological warfare strategy could add to the aggressor’s misery, and India may thus refuse him the satisfaction of claiming ‘victory’. That could suffice to bust her awe in the neighbourhood, strengthen internal dissent and affect her political and economic ambitions. Propagation of such a recourse may, in fact, deter military aggression; falling into a quagmire of never ending military engagement is not an enticing prospect to any power in today’s world. China is no exception.

Robert Greene’s prophesises that, “strategy is not a question of learning a series of moves and follow like a recipe, creative strategists stand out because they are able to drop preconceived notions and focus intensely on present”. To ‘turn the table’ on a stronger adversary, Indian military leaders have to devise asymmetric strategies to garner advantages from blending of the terrain and tactics, mix of sophisticated and rudimentary technology and a venomous concoction of cunning, expediency and audacity. A potent combination of regular and irregular forces could be organised, equipped and trained to resist PLA’s offensive from point elements to bases and beyond in depth, on the flanks, in simultaneity. Campaigning season being a limiting factor, India may continue the struggle in varying tempo and intensity to keep the aggressor bleeding till “General Snow” intervenes.

Indian armed forces may take cue from England’s motto during the Anglo-Spanish War (1510): “Aim at their weakness; make war expensive for them and cheap for you, outlast the most powerful foe. Hit their “Achilles’ Heel”; size can be a weakness in the end”. The tactics of resisting aggression may be devised in a manner as to cover India’s military limitations while diluting the PLA’s strengths. Indeed, if politically endorsed, resistance to PLA’s presence at Lhasa and Xinjian may be built up, like it happened with the ‘Mukti Bahini’4. This would tie up the PLA in rear areas and have severe effects on its logistics. Logistic sustenance being the premier deciding factor in any war along the Indo-Tibet Border, an unstable Tibet would restrain PLA operations in a substantial manner; indeed, it could be a deciding factor in a long drawn war.

In Sun Tsu’s words, “To fight in a defensive manner is not a sign of weakness; it is the height of strategic wisdom, a powerful style of waging war, luring an aggressive enemy into imprudent attack and then waiting patiently for his moment of exhaustion to launch vicious counter-attacks, leveraging your weakness and limitations into power and victory”. Indian forces could thus refuse to give classical battle till the PLA forces are stretched well south of the passes, canalised into narrow valleys and hemmed-in by strongly held defensive features. All the while, the Army could deploy numerous ‘strike teams’ on man-pack, mule-pack, vehicle mounted or air-supported mode to strike at the flanks and rear of the advancing forces - skirmishing, hitting, feinting, retreating, baiting and overwhelming various elements of the attacking formations. Similarly, Air Force could bring devastation upon command and control centres, supply convoys, staging camps, logistic dumps and base areas that would invariably be sited all along the 2000 km stretch of the frontline and all the way back to the Sutlej Valley and the Western as well as the Eastern Highways - and thus impose strain and exhaustion upon the adversary.

Sun Tsu goes on to describe the idea of “pre-eminent position” of a force that allows the defender the advantage of far-reaching tactical strength. He elaborates that these are positions that have intrinsic “energy” - like a stretched bow-string - rendering force-multiplying effects to own advantageous options while constraining that of the enemy’s. In current military lexicon, we may consider these positions as the ‘vital grounds’ which would act as the fulcrum of own defensive operations that would be fought with ruthless aggression both in regular and irregular mode. Indian Army could master the vast high-altitude border belt like the back of its hands to identify access trails, gullies, catches’, hides, crossings, tactical traps and dominating positions, and from these pivotal positions, attract PLA’s repeated assaults, withdrawing, absorbing and recoiling as opportunities arise, and thus inducing the aggressor to commit more and more to gain less and less.

“By manoeuvring (the enemy) into precarious positions, by inducing feeling of frustration and confusion, a strategist can get the other side to breakdown”, goes on Sun Tsu5. Indian armed forces could therefore operate according to a well articulated tempo and varying intensity. It could potion offensive manoeuvre with positional resistance on the front, flanks and deep rear, and interspersed with periods of dormancy, keep the aggressor on the hop. The Indian Army could exploit its experience in high-altitude warfare, continuing resistance even during the non-campaigning seasons, without respite. Then, at an opportune moment, she could deliver a series of coup de main to decimate the aggression.

Following the Napoleonic dictum in the aftermath of the Battle of Austerlitz, that, “if you hold back, waiting for the right moment to launch unexpected counter-attacks, weakness can become strength”, Indian armed forces could strike back at a suitable juncture, holding the aggressor on ground of its own choosing and counter-attacking relentlessly his stretched forces. Then it might choose suitable sectors for offensive action across the border to balance out loss of ground elsewhere.

In the spirit of the Churchillan motto, Indians could proclaim to “fight day and night, season after season, year after year; to fight in valleys, on peaks and passes, on land and in air, North and South of the watershed”, and in their own terms – regardless – and deny victory to the mighty PLA.

India could thus dissuade the ‘Great Dragon’ from breathing fire and trying to teach her another lesson – by preparing for it; as Sun Tsu states: “don’t depend on the enemy not coming; depend rather on being ready for him”.

Making Our Destiny

It will not be easy to convince a great power like China to desist from exercising her military strength in redeeming her aspirations of territorial expansion. Since most military disasters have resulted out of frigid strategies that proved to be irrelevant in the end, dealing with such an adversary would require the Indian armed forces to maximise its resources at hand by ‘out-of-the-ordinary’ recourses. We may also aver that limitations of tangible assets of war may, to good extent, be compensated by military intellect. The effort therefore has to be free of systemic inertia and deliberate.

Indian armed forces could group professionals who are unbound by mind sets and empower them to foster effective reorientation in the contemporary military thought and practice. Resources must be found by the nation to develop operational and logistic infrastructure, and breaking off from long drawn inertia, modernise field formations and strengthen air power. The recent raising of two divisions and positioning of some aircraft in the East would not be enough, more is needed to reap necessary operational advantages. Simultaneously, military diplomacy has to be promoted by means of joint training, logistic support and arms sales so that friendly neighbours may not have to look towards China. Of course, efficient intelligence set up has to be put in place to propagate deliberate deceptions by ‘turning’ the PLA’s surveillance network. Above all, top class junior leadership has to be found to handle complex tactical challenges. And then, as Xenophon stated, “for what leaders are; that as a rule, will the men below them be”; the Indian armed forces would be prepared to take up the cudgel.

The trek is uphill. But given due political mandate, Indian military leaders have risen to the demands of the day before; they would do so again.

Endnotes

Phyrrhus’ war on Romans (279 BC), Anglo–Spanish War (1570), Shivaji’s Deccan War (1650-1700), Anglo-Indian Wars of 18th Century, Austerlitz ( 1805), Afghan Wars of 19th Century, to quote just a few. More recently, Gallipoli (1915), Indo-China (1945-53), Vietnam(1965-74), Afghanistan(1980-89) - the list is endless. In a recent study, it is found that in the past century, as many as fifty percent wars have been won by forces inferior.
It was so that Babur created asymmetry in his favour by introducing field guns to rout the numerically much superior Lodi army in the First Battle of Panipat. Similarly, the Marathas adapted to the tactics of mobile warfare with light cavalry upon the vastly superior Mughal army in the Deccan; contrarily, they also invited disaster by adopting symmetrical tactics that suited the Afghan army in the Third Battle of Panipat.
Of course no one paid heed to General Thimmayya. Diverted from military sense by naïve` politicians who propagated that the Chinese ‘would never attack’, ‘it was not the job of the military commander to suggest as to who pose threat to the nation’, and that all one had to do to stop the Chinese was to establish military ‘posts’ at locations decided by the Intelligence Bureau, the Army occupied defensive positions sans the paraphernalia of classical defensive battle, and when surrounded, cut off or assaulted according to a brilliant offensive plan devised by the Chinese General Staff, either got killed, maimed or captured, or broke up in flight.
Physically emancipated, psychologically devastated, tactically naïve and sparingly equipped, but mentally resilient, ‘Mukti Bahini’s “never say die” attitude was a major factor in Pakistan Army’s defeat in Bangladesh War, 1971.
The strategy adopted by Czar Alexander I to defeat the overwhelmingly superior French Grande` Armee during Napoleon’s Russian Campaign ( 1812) comes close as an example. With his characteristic genius, Napoleon had prepared for a perfect campaign with his 4,50,000 strong Army and provided for every conceivable contingency, particularly logistic preparations down to the minutest details. Yet, continuously impeded by raiding Cossack Horsemen, undeveloped terrain and “General Winter”, and in face of the Russia’s refusal to give battle till the Grande` Armee was stretched up to the village of Borodino – mere 150 km from Moscow – Napoleon had to resort to an ignominious retreat. Only 25,000 troops finally made it home!


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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 20 Apr 2017 21:02

Liu wrote:
Paul wrote:Under Kublai....

so it was,before kublai and after that.

3 states(japan,korea and vietnam)all belong to sinic world and sub~culture born from sinic civilization.

of 3,vietnam is the most close,korea is the second close one .

Japan has never been ruled directly by china,but accepted the title endorsed by chinese emperors during mid_age.

vietnam was ruled directly by china for 1000+ years(even longer than Yunnan province) ,and became self~dominated kingdom(still vassel of china) in 10th century


And why is this a good thing? Why do Chinese robotic morons think being a vassal is something commendable? Vietnam doesn't want to be a vassal, or 'ruled' by China or anyone. Problem with Chinese is they can't think beyond the domination-control-submission concept. Next time these dickheads say something like "x territory was ruled by China as a vassal( assuming their knowledge is even accurate, which it usually is not) for a thousand years' the proper response should be "Perhaps, but that is a totally pernicious, anachronistic and obnoxious thing, and it should cease totally in the present"

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby nam » 20 Apr 2017 21:53

shiv wrote:This image and caption are fascinating in the light of what I have seen on Google Earth in a few places.
1. This is a defensive drill
2. There is a trench with at least 3 men and what appear to be mannequins "advancing" on the plain and being shot at.


It would be interesting to know if the Chinese believe that this is how IA would attack them.

Why would soldiers run towards static defences in a place where there is no cover and at 4500 mtr where breathing is difficult? and in a plateau which is tailor made for mechanised warfare!

Every IA large scale exercise images that given out invariably shows mechanised warfare. IA will just bypass the defence like in 71!

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby sudarshan » 20 Apr 2017 21:59

The Chinese basically think all other races of the world should consider themselves lucky to be under Han subjugation. You people were under the Chinese heel back in the 12th century, so now get back under the Chinese heel you ingrates!

This was also their attitude towards the Tibetan protests during the Beijing Olympics. "These ungrateful Tibetans are ruining China's moment under the sun!"

Not much different from the British actually, who think India should be grateful to them for all the civilization and education and upliftment that they provided.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby SBajwa » 21 Apr 2017 02:42

by Sudarshan
Just go to google maps and expand the region near HP/UK or even Nepal. You will see several dashed lines, which are supposed to show "disputed" status. And what is the nature of the dispute? Simply the fact that there was a Chinese incursion in these areas. I suspect that google waits until a Chinese incursion happens (even if it's just five or ten soldiers crossing the border for a few hours), and then immediately and gleefully marks those areas in dotted lines. In fact, in some instances, Nepalis (I don't know if they were actually soldiers) crossed to the Indian side, and google marked those areas as disputed between India and Nepal.


The kailash Mansarovar yatra traditionally goes up along the river Ganga passing through these peaks visiting various temples and shrines along the way. How did India lost the historical rights to Kailash and Mansarovar!

http://kmy.gov.in/kmy/noticeboard.do?lang=en_US

Route 1: Lipulekh Pass (Uttarakhand)
Total number of batches : 18
Duration : about 24 days.
Estimated cost per person: Rs.1.6 Lakh.

Ministry of External Affairs organizes this Yatra during June to September each year through two different routes - Lipulekh Pass (Uttarakhand),and Nathu La Pass (Sikkim). Kailash Manasarovar Yatra (KMY) is known for its religious value, cultural significance. It is undertaken by hundreds of people every year. Holding significance for Hindus as the abode of Lord Shiva, it holds religious importance also for the Jains and the Buddhists. It is open to eligible Indian citizens,holding valid Indian passports, who wish to proceed to Kailash-Manasarovar for religious purposes. Ministry of External Affairs does not provide any subsidy or financial assistance to Yatris.

Yatris need to spend 3 or 4 days in Delhi for preparations and medical tests before starting the Yatra. Delhi Government arranges comman boarding and lodging facilities free of cost for Yatris only. Yatris are at liberty to make their own arrangements for boarding and lodging in Delhi.

The applicant may do some basic checks to determine their state of health and fitness before registering on-line. However, this will not be valid for the medical tests to be conducted by DHLI and ITBP in Delhi before the Yatra.



Route 2: Nathu La (Sikkim)
See route map-click here
Total number of batches : 08
Duration : about 21 days.
Estimated cost per person: Rs. 2 Lakhs.
Last edited by SBajwa on 21 Apr 2017 20:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby anupmisra » 21 Apr 2017 04:00

Garooda wrote:Carving one town/city at a time

Taking offence to China renaming six places in Arunachal Pradesh, India today said inventing names of states of a neighbour does not make illegal occupation legal.


I am sure the chinese will not throw a fit if India were to rename a few towns, cities and regions in Tibet according to their original historical/Sanskrit tags. Perhaps even rename Aksai Chin according to the Vedas and Puranas. They will be cool with that, right? Two can play at this game.

Hari varsa is probably represented by western Tibet.
Uttara-Kuru varsa is the region to the north of the Pamirs. It probably includes the north-western parts of Xinjiang province of China.
The river Sita (Sito of Hiuen Tsiang) corresponds to the Yarkand River
The Pushkaradvipa has been identified by some as the region lying between China and Mangala (perhaps China and Mongolia)
Bhadrasva varsa probably corresponds to the major part of Xinjiang province of China and the region lying to its east.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby SBajwa » 21 Apr 2017 18:39

Check the comments from the above posted link



OK, Now you rename Beijing as Dalailamapuram and Shanghai as Modinagar.
Dont complain for everything chinkis do.

I like "Dalailamapuram" lets name it to Whole China.

Whole China can be named as Bhagawatdesh!

How about India renaming most towns and cities in Tibet, with the kind help
of the Dalai Lama? This is the silliest game-play by the PRC that is becoming
increasingly isolated in the hostile global environment, created by itself.
China's games could be checkmated by the US-Japan-Taiwan-India combine.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 21 Apr 2017 19:58

SBajwa wrote:Check the comments from the above posted link



OK, Now you rename Beijing as Dalailamapuram and Shanghai as Modinagar.
Dont complain for everything chinkis do.

I like "Dalailamapuram" lets name it to Whole China.

Whole China can be named as Bhagawatdesh!

How about India renaming most towns and cities in Tibet, with the kind help
of the Dalai Lama? This is the silliest game-play by the PRC that is becoming
increasingly isolated in the hostile global environment, created by itself.
China's games could be checkmated by the US-Japan-Taiwan-India combine.


This is exactly what certain Yak Herder has been saying for at least 4-5 years now. Get onto that map app - post photos of your hometown in Tibet and give a name - kaveripattinam, Tibet

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby tandav » 21 Apr 2017 20:10

Xpost Given this nascent Chinese interest in improved friendship with India and its kind interest in historic names, It is obvious that the Chinese want us to help them start naming places in the proposed Indo-Tibet-China peace park so it reflect more accurately its Indian history, mythology and status. Not much is known of the prebuddhist nature of Tibet, but the ancient religion of the Bon people in Tibet is a form of Shiva worship.

So without much ado I present. Local Tibetan name: and their historical Indian equivalents after some real deep research spanning millenia of Ancient Indian History particularly Shiva .
0) Tibet: Tandavprast (the Prast=Plateau state where Lord Shiva danced and leveled the mountains)
1) Lhasa : KaiLasa (the aboard of lord Shiva bestower of peace)
2) Chengguan/Qamdo: Chandgaon/Kamdeo (Holy moon village / Aboard of the lord of Love)
3) Shigatse : Shivprayag : (The confluence of rivers that pay obeisance to lord Shiva, legend has it that when lord Shiva danced while creating Tandavprast the Nyantara River originated as a Teardrop from the eye of the goddess Laxmi who was entranced by the Lord's dance. Its now locally known as Nyanchu which meets the Brahmaputra river.
4) Zhangmu: Shanmukh/Shanmukesvar : (Named after Kartikeya the Son of Shiva)
5) Yangbajain: Yagnoujjain : (A sage in 3000 BC from Ujjain performed a massive Yagna here for Shiva and heat from the flames still smoulder below the earth and makes a hot spring)
6) Shiquanhe : Shivqutir (the cottage of Lord Shiva)
7) Tsetang: Sindhumukh (Origin of the Sindhu river the origin of Indian civilization)

We should create a poll for names. Mine discoveries mentioned above are thoroughly researched and is rooted in Dharmic pre history.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 21 Apr 2017 20:16

tandav wrote:Xpost Given this nascent Chinese interest in improved friendship with India and its kind interest in historic names, It is obvious that the Chinese want us to help them start naming places in the proposed Indo-Tibet-China peace park so it reflect more accurately its Indian history, mythology and status. Not much is known of the prebuddhist nature of Tibet, but the ancient religion of the Bon people in Tibet is a form of Shiva worship.

So without much ado I present. Local Tibetan name: and their historical Indian equivalents after some real deep research spanning millenia of Ancient Indian History particularly Shiva .
0) Tibet: Tandavprast (the Prast=Plateau state where Lord Shiva danced and leveled the mountains)
1) Lhasa : KaiLasa (the aboard of lord Shiva bestower of peace)
2) Chengguan/Qamdo: Chandgaon/Kamdeo (Holy moon village / Aboard of the lord of Love)
3) Shigatse : Shivprayag : (The confluence of rivers that pay obeisance to lord Shiva, legend has it that when lord Shiva danced while creating Tandavprast the Nyantara River originated as a Teardrop from the eye of the goddess Laxmi who was entranced by the Lord's dance. Its now locally known as Nyanchu which meets the Brahmaputra river.
4) Zhangmu: Shanmukh/Shanmukesvar : (Named after Kartikeya the Son of Shiva)
5) Yangbajain: Yagnoujjain : (A sage in 3000 BC from Ujjain performed a massive Yagna here for Shiva and heat from the flames still smoulder below the earth and makes a hot spring)
6) Shiquanhe : Shivqutir (the cottage of Lord Shiva)
7) Tsetang: Sindhumukh (Origin of the Sindhu river the origin of Indian civilization)

We should create a poll for names. Mine discoveries mentioned above are thoroughly researched and is rooted in Dharmic pre history.


Can I use this in a video?

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby tandav » 21 Apr 2017 20:19

shiv wrote:
tandav wrote:Xpost Given this nascent Chinese interest in improved friendship with India and its kind interest in historic names, It is obvious that the Chinese want us to help them start naming places in the proposed Indo-Tibet-China peace park so it reflect more accurately its Indian history, mythology and status. Not much is known of the prebuddhist nature of Tibet, but the ancient religion of the Bon people in Tibet is a form of Shiva worship.

So without much ado I present. Local Tibetan name: and their historical Indian equivalents after some real deep research spanning millenia of Ancient Indian History particularly Shiva .
0) Tibet: Tandavprast (the Prast=Plateau state where Lord Shiva danced and leveled the mountains)
1) Lhasa : KaiLasa (the aboard of lord Shiva bestower of peace)
2) Chengguan/Qamdo: Chandgaon/Kamdeo (Holy moon village / Aboard of the lord of Love)
3) Shigatse : Shivprayag : (The confluence of rivers that pay obeisance to lord Shiva, legend has it that when lord Shiva danced while creating Tandavprast the Nyantara River originated as a Teardrop from the eye of the goddess Laxmi who was entranced by the Lord's dance. Its now locally known as Nyanchu which meets the Brahmaputra river.
4) Zhangmu: Shanmukh/Shanmukesvar : (Named after Kartikeya the Son of Shiva)
5) Yangbajain: Yagnoujjain : (A sage in 3000 BC from Ujjain performed a massive Yagna here for Shiva and heat from the flames still smoulder below the earth and makes a hot spring)
6) Shiquanhe : Shivqutir (the cottage of Lord Shiva)
7) Tsetang: Sindhumukh (Origin of the Sindhu river the origin of Indian civilization)

We should create a poll for names. Mine discoveries mentioned above are thoroughly researched and is rooted in Dharmic pre history.


Can I use this in a video?

Most definitely... I am willing to volunteer more time for such research if you want.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby gashish » 21 Apr 2017 20:44

Regarding renaming of Arunachal towns, perhaps, we are reading too much in to it. Although the timing is suspicious.

Will be curious to know if those names are pinyin transliterations of existing Indian/Tibetan names or have (made-up) historical context..

Chinese have been routinely "inventing" names for places around the world. Most of these names stem from the limitations of non-phonetic Chinese language that has no alphabets with sounds but just symbols with meaning.

Chinese have invented their "own" names for most countries in the world - some are hilarious transliterations and some are totally unrecognizable to non-chinese.

Btw, Pakistan is called "ba ji si tan" (pinyin)... :rotfl:

http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/countrynames_chinese.htm

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 21 Apr 2017 21:07

tandav wrote:
shiv wrote:
Can I use this in a video?

Most definitely... I am willing to volunteer more time for such research if you want.

It would be great to make a video zooming in on a feature and then narrating (or having a caption) with the Indian name and history

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 21 Apr 2017 21:18

Calling Gagan.
Can you identify the "twin cylinder" missile? trucks in Lhasa
29°38'49.97"N 91° 2'51.43"E
Image

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby anupmisra » 21 Apr 2017 21:35

SBajwa wrote:OK, Now you rename Beijing as Dalailamapuram and Shanghai as Modinagar.
Dont complain for everything chinkis do.This is the silliest game-play by the PRC that is becoming
increasingly isolated in the hostile global environment, created by itself.


I hate to state the obvious but Indians tend to strongly react to everything negative the chinis have to say (via their media, never their offical propogandu ministry). 5000 years of building a thick skin and this is what we have come down to?

The chinese love to yank India's chain all day long and, each time they do, the reaction from India (and Indians) is the same. Learn to play their game. If they are 1.4 billion and a supa-doopa-nooookleal-pawa, so are you. Chinis can not live without you. Without India, seepack is a big fat matzo ball. Do you think the chinis love the pakis that much?

I work with many chinis here in the US and, let me go out on a limb here and say this, they fear Indians and India (intellectually, academically, leadership qualities, its pluralism, its democracy and the respect Indians have - ignore the isolated cases).

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby tandav » 21 Apr 2017 22:54

anupmisra wrote:
SBajwa wrote:OK, Now you rename Beijing as Dalailamapuram and Shanghai as Modinagar.
Dont complain for everything chinkis do.This is the silliest game-play by the PRC that is becoming
increasingly isolated in the hostile global environment, created by itself.


I hate to state the obvious but Indians tend to strongly react to everything negative the chinis have to say (via their media, never their offical propogandu ministry). 5000 years of building a thick skin and this is what we have come down to?

The chinese love to yank India's chain all day long and, each time they do, the reaction from India (and Indians) is the same. Learn to play their game. If they are 1.4 billion and a supa-doopa-nooookleal-pawa, so are you. Chinis can not live without you. Without India, seepack is a big fat matzo ball. Do you think the chinis love the pakis that much?

I work with many chinis here in the US and, let me go out on a limb here and say this, they fear Indians and India (intellectually, academically, leadership qualities, its pluralism, its democracy and the respect Indians have - ignore the isolated cases).


There are lots of Injuns that have plenty of free time to while away. No one is upset... we are all ROFLing... I for one am joyous, giddy with excitement at the chance to respond to Chinese Media shenanigans with our own Shenanigans. I welcome this naming exercise from China gives me a chance to actually learn about parts of India that did not have a spotlight on it. In the process I am putting the spotlight on the history of lands and people who yearn to connect with the Indian mothership. The India China Tibet peace park is one of my most ambitious ideas that has the support of many Chinese like Dan and perhaps soon Liu (she is a tough nut to crack but I am sure will soon see the logical sense to my suggestions)

I have many Chinese friends and they were surprised to know that 2 of the 4 major of the classical inventions of China that they were taught such as the compass and Gunpowder were actually originally Indian Inventions. The wet floating mariner compass called the Matsyayantra was transmitted by Indian Navigators to Chinese somewhere in the Indo China sea near Korea. As such there is record of an Indian princess from Ayodhya founding the Koryo clan in Korea. She was escorted by Indian sailors to Korea using their advanced compass and navigational instruments using superior India mathematical systems.

Gunpowder was the reason the Mongols could not defeat India. It is not well known but India was the world's largest producer of Saltpetre in the ancient world. After India defeated the Mongols, the Mongol dynasty collapsed and the Chinese were able to regain Beijing and some smart alec in China decided to rename the Mongol dynasty as the Yuan dynasty. Many Hundreds of Years later India defeated the Japanese in the Asian front in WW2, kicked out the British and freed China from colonial rule and even gave her India's UN veto rights as a gift from a brother.

Of course there is no need for any Chinese fear us, China should not be jealous of Indian generosity, as a Civilization India have always protected China and will continue to do so... there is nothing to fear we are peace loving people onlee... I for one love Chinese cuisine. I cannot live without China or Chinese food.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby disha » 22 Apr 2017 01:35

Liu wrote:so it was,before kublai and after that.

3 states(japan,korea and vietnam)all belong to sinic world and sub~culture born from sinic civilization.

of 3,vietnam is the most close,korea is the second close one .

Japan has never been ruled directly by china,but accepted the title endorsed by chinese emperors during mid_age.


Lot of BS., and honestly Korea is closer to Manchuria which is closer to Han than Vietnam is closer to china. If "closer" means 'mongoloid' features. And that is where the similarity begins and ends.

Further truth is stretched to say "vietnam" when only parts of present day north-vietnam was under chinese control.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby SBajwa » 22 Apr 2017 01:48

Om Parvat that is shaped like the letter OM is shown in Nepal (google maps) while it is 100% totally in India and people visit it during Kailash Mansarovar yatra!

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Om+Pa ... 81.0309935

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Garooda » 22 Apr 2017 01:53

SBajwa wrote:This is the silliest game-play by the PRC that is becoming increasingly isolated in the hostile global environment, created by itself.
Bajwaji I agree it is very silly. I have not seen (unless I missed it) china do the same with other regions in the north bordering Russia. With the phillipines, it was 'ancient/historical territory'. Diddo with South America where they tried using 'ancestry' due to migration connection to broker some influence into the region (or atleast tried). IMHO its slowly seeding, introduction and interject yourself into the next gen. Indoctrination of a thought, idealogy into what just might become a slow acceptance perhaps a decade or two from now? Who knows. MSM doesn't cover the ground reality and you know it. Dont need to look very far for evidence as we all know how the vote bank politics and appeasements has changed the political landscape of India since 1947.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby rpartha » 22 Apr 2017 01:56

NRao wrote:Lui,

So,

United Nations was launched in 1945.

Islam in around 570 ad

Christ 0.0 start of .......

Buddha 623 bc.

The world according to Max Muller started around 3000 bc.

Kashmir around 5000 bc, if not more

So, where do you exactly want us to restart history based on Chinese fiction?


Well it is not about starting the history - you can even do that and if you continue that, Chinese will still come up short in their justification... But what Liu is trying to do was pick and choose specific times in the history (all over the placce) that can be used for their justification... What I am not able to understand is that whether their logical reasoning is that bad or they deliberately do this due to their arrogance?

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Garooda » 22 Apr 2017 01:57

shiv wrote:
SBajwa wrote:Check the comments from the above posted link



OK, Now you rename Beijing as Dalailamapuram and Shanghai as Modinagar.
Dont complain for everything chinkis do.

I like "Dalailamapuram" lets name it to Whole China.

Whole China can be named as Bhagawatdesh!

How about India renaming most towns and cities in Tibet, with the kind help
of the Dalai Lama? This is the silliest game-play by the PRC that is becoming
increasingly isolated in the hostile global environment, created by itself.
China's games could be checkmated by the US-Japan-Taiwan-India combine.

This is exactly what certain Yak Herder has been saying for at least 4-5 years now. Get onto that map app - post photos of your hometown in Tibet and give a name - kaveripattinam, Tibet

Yep. With the new gen and perhaps older ones many times the belief system is "If its on the Internet, then it has to be true" :rotfl:It works even better than MSM outlets at times IMO. With data replication around the world on the internet, definitely it can be grand fathered into the minds by posting photos of hometowns in Tibet with desi names :lol:

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby sudarshan » 22 Apr 2017 02:09

rpartha wrote:Well it is not about starting the history - you can even do that and if you continue that, Chinese will still come up short in their justification... But what Liu is trying to do was pick and choose specific times in the history (all over the placce) that can be used for their justification... What I am not able to understand is that whether their logical reasoning is that bad or they deliberately do this due to their arrogance?


Deliberate, and also due to arrogance. The idea is to state something outrageous so confidently, that the other guy doesn't think of challenging it. You also use the fact that most people are abysmally ignorant, so if you state something confidently with authoritative dates and quotes by historical figures, most people will simply back off and assume you know what you're talking about. Propaganda machinery all over the world uses just this technique, and Goebbels took it to heights. The PRC has messengers who are trained in this, and also has a lot of well-meaning Chinese blokes who lap up the propaganda from the trained messengers and end up believing it, and hence state it confidently and aggressively. This technique of using well-meaning (but abysmally ignorant) blokes, who think they have authority to back up their claims, relies on the assumption that the opponent will be even more ignorant than the blokes themselves. Works most of the time with ill-informed and naive people. Unfortunately for these guys, BRF is not the place where this kind of posturing will fly, since people here are pretty well read.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Eric Leiderman » 22 Apr 2017 21:14

How about naming writing an open letter to PM asking him to name Santipath (the road in N.Delhi where Chinese embassy is located) as Dalai Lama Road. Would be hilarous if they had to change their letterhead to reflect same.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby rpartha » 23 Apr 2017 00:24

sudarshan wrote:
rpartha wrote:Well it is not about starting the history - you can even do that and if you continue that, Chinese will still come up short in their justification... But what Liu is trying to do was pick and choose specific times in the history (all over the placce) that can be used for their justification... What I am not able to understand is that whether their logical reasoning is that bad or they deliberately do this due to their arrogance?


Deliberate, and also due to arrogance. The idea is to state something outrageous so confidently, that the other guy doesn't think of challenging it. You also use the fact that most people are abysmally ignorant, so if you state something confidently with authoritative dates and quotes by historical figures, most people will simply back off and assume you know what you're talking about. Propaganda machinery all over the world uses just this technique, and Goebbels took it to heights. The PRC has messengers who are trained in this, and also has a lot of well-meaning Chinese blokes who lap up the propaganda from the trained messengers and end up believing it, and hence state it confidently and aggressively. This technique of using well-meaning (but abysmally ignorant) blokes, who think they have authority to back up their claims, relies on the assumption that the opponent will be even more ignorant than the blokes themselves. Works most of the time with ill-informed and naive people. Unfortunately for these guys, BRF is not the place where this kind of posturing will fly, since people here are pretty well read.


We need to start doing the same - we need to get our mojo back :).

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby rpartha » 23 Apr 2017 00:25

Eric Leiderman wrote:How about naming writing an open letter to PM asking him to name Santipath (the road in N.Delhi where Chinese embassy is located) as Dalai Lama Road. Would be hilarous if they had to change their letterhead to reflect same.

LOL :). we should seriously consider it - that would be hilarious

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby nam » 23 Apr 2017 14:12

anupmisra wrote:I hate to state the obvious but Indians tend to strongly react to everything negative the chinis have to say (via their media, never their offical propogandu ministry). 5000 years of building a thick skin and this is what we have come down to?

The chinese love to yank India's chain all day long and, each time they do, the reaction from India (and Indians) is the same. Learn to play their game. If they are 1.4 billion and a supa-doopa-nooookleal-pawa, so are you. Chinis can not live without you. Without India, seepack is a big fat matzo ball. Do you think the chinis love the pakis that much?



I totally support the fear mongering. I want the Indians to react harshly to even silly Chinese actions.

US and the Russia used their enmity to take the world for a ride. They used the excuse of ColdWar to build their technological base and fundamentally dominate the world, which continues this day. Neither US nor Russia lost anything substantial, but the remaining world specially Latam, Asia bore the burnt of it.

The Chinese are using the threat from US bogeyman to build their technology base. We don't have overwhelming superiority over PA, because it used "Indian threat" to get everything from F16, Subs, BM and nukes. We suffer everyday due to the lack of superiority over Pakistan.

I want GOI to consider China as a threat and overreact (without getting into real fist fight). If Chinese build 10 ships, GOI should build 11.

This is the only way to build a powerful India.

If Pakis did not go around building nukes, we will still be sitting on a "Peaceful Nuclear Test" and no Agnis.

shiv
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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 23 Apr 2017 14:20

nam wrote:I want GOI to consider China as a threat and overreact (without getting into real fist fight). If Chinese build 10 ships, GOI should build 11.

Unfortunately there is a misreading of Indian psychology here IMHO. When a China fear is raised a lot of Indians, brought up to see their own nation as weak, defeated and subjugated for 1000 years - simply fold up and give up and say we can never get there. After that every Chinese development leads to fearful self flagellation. This may not be your reaction - but it is exactly that for too many Indians. To Mao's credit he has erased that loser-attitude forever from Chinese minds.

The right way to inspire is not to scare but to reduce fear by showing either what is doable or that fear is unnecessary

In fact that is partly why I started this thread and looking at the borders - the first thing to know is that the Chinese simply cannot pour in hordes as they did and would be handed their backsides on a platter if they tried.

I have attempted to make people understand why the Chinese behave as they do but most often only Indian fears and worries come to the fore.

China is hemmed in by hostile forces. Just look at their coast in the east where 90% of their population resides. They cannot go 50 km from their shores without poking into someone butt - esp USA. That is why they are paranoid and building up. But unless we can see the Chinese viewpoint we will forever be browning our own pants.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 23 Apr 2017 15:00

Eric Leiderman wrote:How about naming writing an open letter to PM asking him to name Santipath (the road in N.Delhi where Chinese embassy is located) as Dalai Lama Road. Would be hilarous if they had to change their letterhead to reflect same.


The Commies did that in Calcutta. Named the street the American consulate to Ho Ch Min Sarani

shiv
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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 23 Apr 2017 17:32

Mukesh.Kumar wrote:
Eric Leiderman wrote:How about naming writing an open letter to PM asking him to name Santipath (the road in N.Delhi where Chinese embassy is located) as Dalai Lama Road. Would be hilarous if they had to change their letterhead to reflect same.


The Commies did that in Calcutta. Named the street the American consulate to Ho Ch Min Sarani

Yes they did that right during the Vietnam war. The consulate was on "Canning street" which became "Ho Chi Minh sarani"


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