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Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

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shiv
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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 30 Apr 2017 06:09

Prasad wrote:Shiv Saar
I'll post details later since I'm on my mobile but the Chinese have been holding exercises to learn and tube their long range deployments by going to their North West. Tibet is of course different due to altitude but I'm sure they take that into account in their plans.

No in fact those exercises have been held at high altitude.

The fact is that on the ground at this point in time the Chinese do not maintain a posture that indicates invasion. The real importance of this point is in understanding that the fear that the Chinese will suddenly do a '62 are unfounded. That said - although their logistic lines are very long, they do maintain defensive constructions against Indian attack. They also probe the border as and when they feel like it and "claim" some areas. India has to maintain a very high (and costly?) profile along the border to check this.

If the Chinese are going to attack you can be sure that there will be plenty of warning - they will spend months building up forces and put heavy pressure on India at the border. If the Chinese start building up forces, India will have to do likewise and in case of hot fighting air power will have to play a role.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Deans » 30 Apr 2017 09:30

If there is political will, a more aggressive Indian response to Chinese probing/land grabbing patrols, might be to do a `Kargil in reverse'.
We outnumber the PLA in every sector along the LAC and since our troops are not conscripts - with some being locally raised units, we have a much better feel for the terrain. Since the most of the LAC is disputed and `perceptions of where the border is, vary', we could send out patrols say 2 km further out and occupy a more defensible area like a ridge, where we build a temporary structure.
If the Chinese protest, as they will, our local commander says `vely solly, but this is our land and the Tibetan yak herders here do not seem to have any problem with that' and invites them for chai-biskoot. If it threatens to escalate, our diplomats say (after lot of chai biskoot sessions during which the PLA will lose face) `perceptions of the border vary etc etc and we go back to our original position if the Chinese also do so. It would make the Chinese rethink their strategy of bullying India and make them invest a lot more in strengthening their presence along the LAC.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 30 Apr 2017 12:21

Folks I want to do something that I consider "fun". But I would like input from BRFites.

For example - many of the Chinese military sites recognizable at the borders have long buildings that vary between 150x35 feet to 70x20 feet. Some are single floor and some multi-floor.

It is almost certain that some of these buildings house troops. Since I have already marked out dozens of such sites I can now make an estimate of how many men these buildings can house.

It is easy to assume that two men in bunks will need a 10x10 space so a 150x35 foot building can house 100 men in single floor accommodation and double that in two floors. But it is not so simple. The men need toilets, baths, a kitchen, dispensary etc. So some allowance has to be made for that. Then there is the requirement for food to be shipped in and a storage area for food and fuel. Many sites have plenty of vehicle parking space but vehicles are not seen that frequently. Some buildings look like covered parking and there must be vehicle service/repair areas. Many of these sites have mysterious small structures of uncertain function. They surely house arms, ammunition ranging from rifles to mortars to RCLs.

I have not found too many visibly identifiable radar sites although power pylons, comm towers etc are easily seen.

I want to make an assessment of what numbers of men are there in various areas.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby SSharma » 30 Apr 2017 13:04

Deans wrote:If there is political will, a more aggressive Indian response to Chinese probing/land grabbing patrols, might be to do a `Kargil in reverse'.
We outnumber the PLA in every sector along the LAC and since our troops are not conscripts - with some being locally raised units, we have a much better feel for the terrain. Since the most of the LAC is disputed and `perceptions of where the border is, vary', we could send out patrols say 2 km further out and occupy a more defensible area like a ridge, where we build a temporary structure.
If the Chinese protest, as they will, our local commander says `vely solly, but this is our land and the Tibetan yak herders here do not seem to have any problem with that' and invites them for chai-biskoot. If it threatens to escalate, our diplomats say (after lot of chai biskoot sessions during which the PLA will lose face) `perceptions of the border vary etc etc and we go back to our original position if the Chinese also do so. It would make the Chinese rethink their strategy of bullying India and make them invest a lot more in strengthening their presence along the LAC.

chinese would love to engage us right now.
we are at a position of military/economic and even diplomatic weakness vs them.

better to first modernise and grow economically, the chinese would automatically calm down.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 30 Apr 2017 16:52

SSharma wrote:chinese would love to engage us right now.
we are at a position of military/economic and even diplomatic weakness vs them.


I hear people making this assertion very often, Can you flesh out why you think so taking into account China's own military an logistical and geopolitical difficulties? Sometimes this statement is made from very general facts like
1. China has a 1 tril $economy
2. China has developed 5 gen jets
3. China has this China has that

The whole idea of this thread is to ask anyone who says such things to justify with facts as to why this is being said. The most dumbed down version of this question is why hasn't China engaged us militarily in the last decade and why do they currently not appear to be readying to "engage us" right now.

Maybe some of us who question your assertion are wrong. We may have missed so many details. We too can learn. Please inform while you say such things.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby SSharma » 30 Apr 2017 17:10

shiv wrote:
SSharma wrote:chinese would love to engage us right now.
we are at a position of military/economic and even diplomatic weakness vs them.


I hear people making this assertion very often, Can you flesh out why you think so taking into account China's own military an logistical and geopolitical difficulties?


sir, first off, yoda you are, i am but jar jar binks

having said, the biggest reason i believe we need to be careful of engaging china is their cyber army.
if they can annoy usa then surely we are no match if they focus all their resources on us.
most if not all of our comm hardware is of chini origin, pretty sure they all have backdoors built into them.

countries like iran/russia that we hope will help or stay neutral can easily help the chinese as they both can be bought off.
only japan and usa have any real reason to come to our aid, and even then i doubt how much japan can do.

militarily sure it will most likely be a stalemate as we should be able to defend well but imagine the sort of losses of investment we'd have to incur. china too will lose out economically but they already have a full stomach, we are still hungry.

in an all out war everyone is dead anyway, i am assuming it wont ever be all out, but more of a cold war type scenario with minor skirmishes interrupted by major ones.

not to mention our jaichands, there will be protests and appeals to maintain the moral high ground and show self restraint when the chinese sink a ship of ours "accidentally".

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby ArjunPandit » 30 Apr 2017 23:27

Ssharma,
why dont u imagine the otherway round, theirs is a export driven economy. Imagine if IN sinks a ship of theirs in SCS. While no one will come to our aid but we ourselves can also inflict excruciating pain on them. We may not have friends on our side, and china may be able to buy porkis and others like them. However, there are a lot of nations china has upset by casting their evil eyes on them. If we play our cards right, they will rally behind us to teach the hegemon a lesson.
One reason why it is still a can because outside BRF and the masses thinks India as a nation weak and meek that can be brought down to her feet by the almighty chinese. The day majority of Indians start believing the FACT that our nation can stand toe to toe with not just China but any nation, Chinese will not be able to do much. These J(NU)chands and paki lover cabal is already losing its credibility fast in the eyes of masses

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby SSharma » 01 May 2017 00:49

ArjunPandit wrote: If we play our cards right, they will rally behind us to teach the hegemon a lesson.

i agree 100%
but that needs time
time that we ourselves need as a nation to grow and become stronger.

which brings us back to my first point, we need to bide our time for now, no point in engaging china immediately.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Guddu » 01 May 2017 01:23

We should fight when we think we can achieve our goals. As one of our esteemed generals said, something to the effect "we fight with the army we have". You can never be fully ready, because in 5 years, China might have also progressed. That should not however stop us from accumulating urgent weapons and supplies ASAP. I personally dont see a Sino-Indian war in the near future for China will not initiate a war it cannot win, neither will India initiate a war in Tibet. A war in POK over CPEC is more likely and potentially winnable.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby ArjunPandit » 01 May 2017 02:19

SSharma wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote: If we play our cards right, they will rally behind us to teach the hegemon a lesson.

i agree 100%
but that needs time
time that we ourselves need as a nation to grow and become stronger.

which brings us back to my first point, we need to bide our time for now, no point in engaging china immediately.

I think we are saying the same action but our approach is different. You want to do it the lizard way, I probably want to do it a way thats calls for their bluff. Unfortunately, with our nation, nothing works until our behinds are on fire. We need to increase the costs for dragon the way they had increased for us tremendously.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 01 May 2017 07:21

SSharma wrote:militarily sure it will most likely be a stalemate as we should be able to defend well but imagine the sort of losses of investment we'd have to incur. china too will lose out economically but they already have a full stomach, we are still hungry.

in an all out war everyone is dead anyway, i am assuming it wont ever be all out, but more of a cold war type scenario with minor skirmishes interrupted by major ones.

not to mention our jaichands, there will be protests and appeals to maintain the moral high ground and show self restraint when the chinese sink a ship of ours "accidentally".

With respect may I point out that this is a "classic dhoti shivering" post. I do not mean to be mean or nasty - but I just want to point out the undercurrent of deep anxiety about ourselves (India).
1. What will happen to our investments
2. China has a full stomach and they are ready to lose but we are not
3. We have jaichands who will stop us from retaliating

Mind you if you are anxious I can't do anything about it - but I can certainly point out that you are expressing anxieties and ask if these anxieties are "sensible and wise" or "irrational and destructive"

You are saying "We should bide our time". Fine. That is sage advice. but what if the other guy does not want to bide his time. Like 1947. Or 1962. Or 1965. Or 1967. Or 1971. Or 1999?

That means investments or no investments, full stomach or empty stomach we will have to fight. Emergency laws allow for the arrest and silencing of Jaichands.

If you divide society into
1. Patriots and 2. Jaichands - you are now creating a 3rd group that says "I would like to be a patriot but I am afraid Jaichands will make us lose"

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Deans » 01 May 2017 10:37

We keep getting to self flagellating mode when we talk about China, but let's consider the following:

- China can't even credibly threaten Taiwan, an island with the population of Mumbai, in China's backyard.
- Even in the SCS, it is using salami tactics against Philipines and Vietnam rather than annexing a disputed island outright.
- China's economy is far more vulnerable than ours, in a war, as it is more export led and dangerously over-leveraged compared to ours. Any shock, like a war, might be the tipping point, that crashes their economy.
- Even if we compare military capability, we have a professional army, with considerable combat experience and intimately familiar with the terrain, against a conscript army of `little emperors'.
Last edited by Deans on 01 May 2017 10:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby SSharma » 01 May 2017 10:38

shiv wrote:what if the other guy does not want to bide his time. Like 1947. Or 1962. Or 1965. Or 1967. Or 1971. Or 1999?

That means investments or no investments, full stomach or empty stomach we will have to fight.


sir, ofcourse if push comes to shove, we will all have to fight.

my initial post of biding time was in response to Deans' post about doing a kargil on the chinese - i think that still holds true.
not giving the chinese a legit excuse to fight us does not equal not being prepared for one - we need to be prepared all the time, even during times of 400% peace.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Marten » 01 May 2017 10:57

Are we prepared for war or for calling their bluff? (Surely not the same thing).

Are we prepared to give back to them in their own coin (Tibet Liberation Lions and East Turkmenistan Al-Falaq can be raised for a start). Bakis have been doing this gangbanging for so long that the Chinese do not even know they will end up paying in lives and gold.

Let's start by open repudiating their claim over Tibet and stating that Autonomy leading to Freedom is the only possible outcome. Then, let's waste time on dhoti shivering. (I have only two and soiling any is not an option).

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Deans » 01 May 2017 11:01

Sharmaji, My phrase `doing in Kargil...' was not accurate'. I'd rather say `doing what China has been doing to us along the LAC for years. That is
keep pushing the envelope and see what they can get away with and if confronted, back off without use of force. Just the fact that we can push back against the Chinese will cause them to seriously rethink their policy.

I'm not advocating war with the Chinese now, not because it will take X no of years for our economy to improve etc, but because China is in a dangerous position economically and politically and they might well be much weaker in a few years. Consider:
- Their economy is slowing and the longer they try to prop it up (to avoid losing face) the harder it will crash.
- They have serious border differences with several countries which will only get exacerbated. Our best case scenario is that they lose face in a
conflict not involving India and that looks increasingly likely.
- Their only allies are dictatorships, or semi dictatorships like Pakistan, who have been bought off with OBOR related investments. That is also likely
to crash soon.
- Increasing unease with Eleven, both within the party, as he purges his rivals and among the people, who, in an increasingly networked world, don't believe that they are growing at 7% The Chinese who really know what is going on have taken out (and continue to take out) their money at an unprecedented rate.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby RajD » 01 May 2017 19:07

http://www.newsinsight.net/Troubleathom ... age=page-1
Gurus, what do you make of the above article?
Since it's regarding Modi sarkar's response in general to situation in J&K and China in particular, chose to post here. Didn't know exactly where to post the link. Requesting moderators to shift it to the appropriate thread.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 01 May 2017 19:11

A load of bullshit

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby sudarshan » 01 May 2017 23:34

^^^ Got to agree with the succinct summary above. That article probably came from Inanity Central, Inc.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Deans » 02 May 2017 09:51

Raj, I did not think the article you posted merited a response, but since you asked - The last 2 para's give away the writers mindset. He rants about Aadhar making us a fascist state and the evils caused by DeMo, though they have nothing to do with J&K or China.
On J&k, he offers no solutions. His criticism is based on 2 incorrect assumptions. 1. That GOI is in `secret parleys with Pakistan' & 2. That blocking some internet services is illegal.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Kashi » 02 May 2017 11:07

For a minute I thought it was an article from Global times or one of the rags that pass for newspaper in Pakistan. The threats being made on behalf of China are comically similar.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Suraj » 02 May 2017 12:35

Deans wrote:We keep getting to self flagellating mode when we talk about China, but let's consider the following:

- China can't even credibly threaten Taiwan, an island with the population of Mumbai, in China's backyard.
- Even in the SCS, it is using salami tactics against Philipines and Vietnam rather than annexing a disputed island outright.
- China's economy is far more vulnerable than ours, in a war, as it is more export led and dangerously over-leveraged compared to ours. Any shock, like a war, might be the tipping point, that crashes their economy.
- Even if we compare military capability, we have a professional army, with considerable combat experience and intimately familiar with the terrain, against a conscript army of `little emperors'.

On top of the Taiwan issue, I'm certain that most of BRF doesn't known about Kinmen and Matsu Islands. These are islands still controlled by Taiwan despite PRC's belligerence. So what, you might ask. Well, see where they are:
KInmen and Matsu Islands
That's right, Taiwan controls these islands, that are located about as far from mainland as Elephanta Island. And mainland, with its P-5 status, ICBMs, SLBMs, long range bombers and even just bottle rockets, has not been able to muster the political will to grab these back.

I could do a straw poll asking how many people knew about this dispute and particularly the WTF idea of how close Kinmen actually is to mainland and yet remains in Taiwanese control. How many of you knew ? Kinmen Island is within view of a big city of PRC across the short body of water from it - Xiamen.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Atmavik » 02 May 2017 12:37

^^^ I learnt abt Kinmen on BRF. someone mentioned it in response to Liu's boasts.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Suraj » 02 May 2017 12:42

That might have been me :) Not the first time I'm mentioning it here. The first time I learned about it was from a Taiwan map of a friend from that country. Rather, her father showed me. My first reaction was
Thats Taiwanese territory ?? Right in front of Xiamen in PRC coastal waters ??

and he said yes, with a satisfied grin.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby darshhan » 02 May 2017 13:07

Suraj wrote:That might have been me :) Not the first time I'm mentioning it here. The first time I learned about it was from a Taiwan map of a friend from that country. Rather, her father showed me. My first reaction was
Thats Taiwanese territory ?? Right in front of Xiamen in PRC coastal waters ??

and he said yes, with a satisfied grin.


Suraj. You are exactly right. Someone i know and who is from xiamen(chinese), told me sometime back that they could see taiwan's shoreline from xiamen. I was somewhat perplexed because main taiwan island is more than 100 miles from chinese territory. I asked her the same. She just smiled sheepishly.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Karthik S » 02 May 2017 13:12

IIRC the island closest to the mainland is just 2 KM. Sometime back saw a video.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby aditp » 02 May 2017 15:43

Shiver, Dhotifellas shiver
China may interfere in Kashmir issue: Chinese report

Where's the mountain strike corps? :evil:

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 02 May 2017 21:35

Suraj wrote:That might have been me :) Not the first time I'm mentioning it here. The first time I learned about it was from a Taiwan map of a friend from that country. Rather, her father showed me. My first reaction was
Thats Taiwanese territory ?? Right in front of Xiamen in PRC coastal waters ??

and he said yes, with a satisfied grin.

Wow. I never knew..

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Suraj » 02 May 2017 21:46

Yeah shiv. This is the same country that has such a mental hold on Indians post 1962, but which cannot even take Kinmen back from Taiwan in 60+ years, despite their alleged great power status. Kinmen is a total WTF thing about PRC. Even in Mao's time, when they didn't give a crap about world opinion, they tried and failed. Twice. Those islands are what the two Taiwan Straits Crises in the 1950s were about. And the third crisis in the 1990s when PRC flung hazaar mijjiles at Kinmen, and... nothing happened.

PRC is great at establishing atmospherics 'they can just use their massive amphibious and artillery base to destroy Taiwan anytime' the sayings go. But I'm skeptical. They haven't even shown the ability to mount an assault on Kinmen - a place about as far away as an island a boat ride away from Gateway of India.

PRC are great at portraying such an image of looming menace, while in real life, having accomplished very little militarily to back that up. Their primary strength is in recognizing an opponents moment of weakness and attacking such that the hit seems more painful than it actually is.

Learning about Kinmen and repeatedly staring dumbfounded at the map and at an older Taiwanese dude grinning at me, was a total die laughing moment.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby disha » 02 May 2017 23:12

Suraj wrote:I could do a straw poll asking how many people knew about this dispute and particularly the WTF idea of how close Kinmen actually is to mainland and yet remains in Taiwanese control. How many of you knew ? Kinmen Island is within view of a big city of PRC across the short body of water from it - Xiamen.


And I thought all the Xia men I interacted were from Kinmen Island! :(( In my mind I had placed Xiamen in Taiwan! :rotfl:

I do needle my chinese colleagues on Kinmen and see them twist and turn....

PS: Did not know (or remember) about Matsu Island. On a side note: In the avatar aang cartoons., the kyoshi warriors have a separated island from mainland.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Deans » 05 May 2017 12:45

We often compare numbers and weaponry without considering the quality of the individual soldier.

The PLA is still a conscript army. The conscripts, thanks to double digit economic growth, can't wait to get out of the service and enjoy the fruit of economic growth (so do their parents, since they are single child `little emperor').
Their officer corps has Stalinist style political commissars attached to each unit who can overrule a commander's decision.
Loyalty to the party and not the army is paramount.

In the event of a clash with any of their neighbors, their soldiers know (despite all the political lectures) they are not liberating anyone,
or reclaiming their territory. They are invading a country whose people will treat them with hostility. In the case of India, this is exacerbated by the fact that their base (Tibet) also has a hostile populace with a harsh, unforgiving terrain.
These are intangibles that matter a lot.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 09 May 2017 08:15

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... rance-exam
bloomberg.com
Corruption in China’s Military Begins With Buying a Job
Ting Shi

The calls started months ago to the recruitment office in the eastern Chinese province of Jiangxi, asking how much it would cost to pass this year’s tests to join the army. The going rate, depending on your “guanxi,” or connections: As much as $16,000.

Limited spots in annual recruitment drives across China’s 31 provinces and municipalities for the world’s largest army, plus a high failure rate for physical fitness tests, leads parents to pay to guarantee a spot for their child in the enlistment season that runs through September. Success offers a stable job and, for some, a path out of rural districts.

“They asked me what the current price tag is, and I said ‘around 80,000 to 90,000 yuan for you guys,’” said Wang, a recruitment officer with the People’s Liberation Army in Jiangxi, referring to former military colleagues who call him. “If your guanxi was really strong it’d cost you around 50,000 to 60,000 yuan per quota; if it was just so-so, you would have to spend 100,000 yuan at least.” Wang asked not to be identified in full as he isn’t authorized to speak publicly.

The payments reflect the challenge for President Xi Jinping as he seeks to eradicate corruption in the military and boost the PLA as a combat-ready force with broad reach across the Asia-Pacific region. While several high-profile officers have been charged with violations, and former PLA deputy commander-in-chief Xu Caihou was expelled from the Communist Party for taking bribes to help others get promoted, graft begins in rural areas and smaller towns even before recruits go past the door.
‘Embedded’ Corruption

“It’s impossible to weed out corruption at the basic level, because it’s embedded in the culture,” said retired Major General Xu Guangyu, a senior researcher at Beijing-based research group the China Arms Control and Disarmament Association. “The central leadership knows corruption is the number one enemy the army faces, and if strong-handed measures aren’t taken, it would weaken the army’s capabilities to fight a modern war.”

Under the Military Service Law, males in China can apply to enlist when they are 18. While they are all registered, there are a raft of exemptions from service -- including being in school full-time or being the only family member earning an income -- which means joining is essentially voluntary for men and women. Whether for the two years of military service or for those joining a PLA academy, all applicants must pass academic and physical tests and an assessment of their commitment to the party.
Way Out

Enlisting can be a way out of rural areas and provides a secure career path, according to Zeng Zhiping, a national defense law scholar and vice president of the Nanchang Institute of Technology in Jiangxi. It also appeals to urban youth who find themselves struggling in the job market.

“Nowadays, joining the army is more and more like an occupational choice and there’s less and less a patriotic halo surrounding it,” Zeng said. “People weigh their choices and make realistic decisions from economic perspectives.”

A request for comment on alleged bribery at the military-recruitment level faxed to the Defense Ministry on June 30 produced no response.

While entering the military provides a stable income, the incentive for corruption after joining remains. New recruits get a yearly package of around 25,000 yuan ($4,031) in Beijing and 15,600 yuan in rural areas such as Haiyan county in Zhejiang province, according to state media. Inspectors in April in two major military regions -- Beijing and Jinan -- said they found “irregularities” in the handling of promotions, construction and allocation of military buildings, and misuse of assets, especially land, the official Xinhua News Agency reported.
‘Proper Sums’

“These guys are low or mid-level local officials who live in the communities where they serve,” said Dennis Blasko, a Florida-based senior analyst at CNA Corp.’s China Security Affairs Group, and the author of “The Chinese Army Today,” who served as a U.S. army attache in Beijing from 1992 to 1995. “It is highly likely that some of them could be influenced by the proper sums of money or gifts to either allow a youngster into the PLA or keep him or her out. They could do this by faking test results or helping to pass or fail medical exams.”

In its effort to professionalize its forces, China is following the example of the U.S. Reserve Officers’ Training Corps, by increasing incentives for bright minds to serve, paying college fees and a stipend to students if they enlist as trainee officers when they graduate. Even so, around 60 percent of college students who apply for military service fail the fitness exam, the state-owned China Daily reported in August.
Physical Tests

The military has relaxed its physical standards to attract better-educated recruits, the China Daily reported June 17, citing the Defense Ministry. The height requirement for a male candidate has been lowered two centimeters to 1.6 meters (5 foot 2 inches) and the upper weight limit eased. Eyesight standards have been loosened, as nearly 70 percent of high school and college students in China are short-sighted, it said.

Kristen Gunness, the Washington-based chief executive officer of China-focused advisory group Vantage Point Asia and an adjunct fellow for China affairs at RAND Corp., said the relaxation may lessen corruption only at the margins, as long as officers are still willing to accept payments.

“As long as the rural poor are finding ways to pay their way into the PLA at the expense of others who are more qualified, the military must then spend more resources bringing the lower-skilled up to the same level as the rest,” said Gunness, a former adviser on China to the U.S. Navy. “This is where corruption also affects performance.”
Remains Common

A computerized grading system for military-academy entrance exams was in use by a majority of provinces and municipalities in 2009, according to a Shanghai-based former training-school recruitment director. While it limited some corruption, bribery remains commonplace in rural areas, the person said, asking not to be identified because of the sensitivity of the matter.

Parents would telephone to ask for a favor in return for money, because their children’s results fell short or because they failed the physical check-ups, said the former director.

Xi has pledged to target both “tigers” and “flies,” meaning senior- and lower-ranking officials, in combating corruption across all walks of life. For the military, the focus is on being able to project China as a power in the region and to assert territorial claims in the East China Sea and South China Sea.
Rising Budget

China’s military budget will rise 12.2 percent this year as spending focuses on high-technology weaponry and longer-reach naval and air capacity. The military is improving its training, doctrine, weapons and surveillance to be able to conduct more sophisticated attacks against the U.S. and others, according to a Pentagon report released last month.

The level of advancement remains below that of the world’s most capable armies, Xu Qiliang, vice chairman of the Central Military Commission, wrote in a book explaining reforms outlined in a party meeting in November. Corruption undermines the army’s effectiveness, retired Major General Luo Yuan wrote in the state-owned Global Times in February 2013.

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Among the targets in Xi’s crackdown has been ex-Lieutenant-General Gu Junshan, a onetime deputy head of the army’s General Logistics Department who faces charges including bribery and abuse of power, according to a Xinhua report in March. Retired General Xu, a former vice chairman of the CMC, was expelled during a meeting of the Politburo chaired by President Xi, becoming the highest-level military official ensnared for corruption in more than six decades, Xinhua said June 30.
Competence Focus

The PLA is considering revamping its official evaluation system to focus on competence, Xinhua reported in February. It will audit personnel before deciding to promote them or let them retire, it said last September.

“Corruption absolutely has an impact on the PLA’s readiness,” said Gunness from Vantage Point. “This is known by the senior Chinese leadership, which is why Xi Jinping has launched his anti-corruption campaign in an effort to ready the PLA to ‘fight and win wars’ as well as get rid of peacetime complacency.”

State media have cited complaints about the recruitment process. The People’s Daily reported in early 2013 that Wang Qian, a high-school graduate in Shangqiu city in central Henan province who passed the tests, was told by the local recruitment office to pay 100,000 yuan. Wang said her admission was revoked when she said she didn’t have the money.

Shangqiu officials later said the reason for not admitting Wang was that her family had engaged in financial disputes that could reflect badly on the army if she had joined, the People’s Daily said. Two calls to the Shangqiu recruitment office weren’t returned.

Even with the government edicts against corruption, people feel compelled to “follow the unwritten rules” and make payments, according to recruitment officer Wang.

Recruiting quotas at a provincial level are usually handled by the head of the general staff of the specific PLA branch, he said. “So if you can get some middle-man to go through, you have a chance.”
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chola
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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby chola » 09 May 2017 09:13

^^^ lol. Even worse than a conscript army where peasants can be made to provide fodder for human waves.

Kind of doubtful that these single child little emperors whose parents spent 100,000 yuan to get them army jobs would be charging up any hills. lol

If we can't kick the arse of these pudding soft, self-indulgent little faggots in a short war then we should be ashamed as Indians.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Deans » 09 May 2017 09:45

It is actually worse than what the article suggests.
As far as I know, all Chinese men go through basic military training. The value of that is next to useless in a modern war.
The bribes are paid for long term recruitment. It is these long term soldiers (NCO's and JCO's in IA) that have been the backbone of every army
since the Roman legions. These are the soldiers who have inadequate fitness and are bribing their way into a job.

I'm surprised by the salary paid to a new recruit in the PLA. For a country with a per capita income 4 times India's and with no unemployment,
the salary of approx Rs 20,000 p.m is less than a IA jawan. The Chinese have to pay a bribe for that ?
The height standard of 5'2 - it is less than the IA (barring the hill regiments like the Gorkhas - who compensate by higher fitness levels), despite the Chinese supposedly enjoying higher nutrition levels than us, for decades.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 09 May 2017 10:04

I wonder if people are bribing their way out of "difficult postings" like Tibet and Aksai Chin. The news of oxygen enriched barracks made me suspicious. O2 enriched barracks means these guys come home every night and have a fill of O2 that takes them down to 2500 meters from 4500 meters. That will keep them happy the next day but acclimatization is either absent or delayed.

However any news about China makes Indians crap in their pants and I got into a brief discussion with someone on IDRW who insisted that Chinese troops would be fighting with oxygen tanks and would hence be much more effective. He did not know the difference between O2 enriched barracks and carrying O2 cylinders. The guy pooh-poohed and dismissed me as an ignoramus when I asked him what happens when the oxygen tank gets empty after 2 hours of a 12 hour patrol.

China has some formidable looking camps in Aksai Chin and other areas. Some may house hundreds of men by the looks of it - but there are very few of them. There are just 2 in the Northern part of Aksai Chin and about 3 around Pangong lake. The road links are long and not all weather roads

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby chaitanya » 09 May 2017 19:13

shiv sir, thank you for your recent posts on the Chinese buildup (or lack of it) in Tibet, they have been very informative. Now I am wondering - if China is maintaining a skeleton force in Tibet and does not really have warfighting capability, how would they hold off Indian mountain divisions? In the event of a conventional Indian offensive, will they go full paki and simply engage in nuclear retaliation rather than attempting to fight with conventional warfare?

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 09 May 2017 19:49

Chaitanya - China appears to be maintaining only a skeleton capability.

Here is an article that I had posted a few days ago - worth reading although it has the usual dhoti-shiver passages because no Indian can write about China without some other Indian chastising him for not respecting China. Only I am am aggressive oiseaule who refuses to do that.
http://www.vifindia.org/print/1828
I quote from the article which sums us the situation
We have reasons to believe that mother earth has not been overly supportive of aggression from Tibetan Plateau across the Himalayan Passes into India. Indeed, any PLA offensive across the Indo-Tibet Border has to contend with an adverse terrain anomaly: its build-up and spring-board areas straddle a ground that exposes its war machine to disruption by inhospitable elements as well as air and ground attack, while its offensive across the watershed passes would be beleaguered by a ground that favours classically conducted defensive operations. Indeed, PLA’s offensive across the passes would have to fight ‘friction of terrain’ and ‘tension of logistics’ before engaging Indian forces - with “General Snow” ever ready to cut off its lifeline.

Therefore, even if the PLA commits overwhelming number of formations to its offensives, as to how many of these could actually be employable - along limited, narrow axes, and against successive lines of defences, remains a moot point to consider.

China’s declaration of unilateral ceasefire in 1962 may be seen in this light. Only if Indian leadership had not lost its nerve and continued the state of war, matters would have been different.


When I look at the border areas - say the Northern part of Aksai chin - there are only two Chinese military camps in the area with very long logistics lines. I will do a separate explanatory video on this - just trying to figure out how best to explain everything in one engaging video. There are 3 near Pangong lake. A few further south are connected by very bad roads to the highway.

I am not even going to bother commenting on the Indian side but it appears to be much more robust. I will make nobody's job easier by mapping out what India is doing. But in general China has long roads connecting their camps. Some good some bad, all very very long. India has scores of helipads. There is no comparison between the number of helipads we have and what they have. And before anyone can chastise me to respect China by saying helos can land anywhere - I will ask - but where will they take off from? Where are the airfields? How well are they connected? None are within easy reach of lowland airfields like we have. Our air logistics needs are very important and that is why I ask that people stop making absurd arguments in the Military Helo thread without understanding our needs. Our need for good air transport is far greater than "strategic bomber" which people are slobbering about. IMO. There is a good chance that we can reoccupy swathes of Aksai Chin in push comes to shove. But we must keep our air logistics top rate.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby chola » 09 May 2017 20:42

shiv wrote:Chaitanya - China appears to be maintaining only a skeleton capability.

Here is an article that I had posted a few days ago - worth reading although it has the usual dhoti-shiver passages because no Indian can write about China without some other Indian chastising him for not respecting China. Only I am am aggressive oiseaule who refuses to do that.
http://www.vifindia.org/print/1828


Sorry Shivji, I've made this argument a LONG time ago. Geographically and geopolitically it is hemmed in. On top of which, it is a soft nation militarily (a term many like to use for India.) Economically, though, it is a very hard nation and that is where the danger lies.

It is a third-rate military power but it is a first rate industrial power. (I attended a conference a half decade ago where Arvind Subramanian said that we might be seeing the rise of the greatest manufacturing nation in history in Cheen. This was before the numbers came out on PRC using more cement in one year than the US in 60 or chinis using half the world's steel or the "ghost" cities.)

Pro-longed peace means playing to Cheen's strength. With the maturing of their printing press, they will overwhelm the staus quo on the ground anywhere -- as long as they are given time to build.

War is the best option. A strike to recover Aksai Chin would NOT lead to nukes. It would permanently knock them below us in the eyes of the nations around the IOR rimland and beyond. But it will not affect their survival enough tip the equation towards nukes. They are businessmen and merchants not warriors with a warrior mentality of death before dishonor like the Japanese or Vietnamese. They are also not delusional about their "martial" races like the Pakis.

A short war would be fun and profitable against that army.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby chaitanya » 09 May 2017 22:29

Thanks for the clarifications shiv and chola. The discussions on this and the other chinese threads have been great, really learned a lot... now back to lurk mode

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby sanjaykumar » 10 May 2017 04:35

Good to see Lt Gen Bannerjee's article. It endorses many succinct points I have raised.

The terrain into India from the Tibetan plateau is essentially a series of parallel riverine valleys ideally suited to be turned into killing fields.

The open indefensible terrain of Tibet. Indefensible without air dominance although he does not state it explicitly.

The utility of special forces and native Tibetans in creating havoc behind enemy lines

The strategic employ of General Winter, what he calls gennearl snow. This should be an integral part of india's defence calculus.



I have previously discussed hypoxia and possible methods to speed up acclimatisation which he has neglected.

He is too modest in crediting the Mukti Bahini in the 1971 victory. The Indian military especially army demonstrated an innovative, creative and vigorous plan to obliterate the opposition AND create a new nation. The last has been left to be inferred by the general, viz a viz Tibet.


Finally and most importantly india's cricketing is a key determinant and barometer in determining India's potential as a military opponent.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Manish_P » 10 May 2017 14:23

sanjaykumar wrote:Finally and most importantly india's cricketing is a key determinant and barometer in determining India's potential as a military opponent.


:eek: Could you kindly elaborate ?


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