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Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

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NRao
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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby NRao » 08 Apr 2017 05:21

guy,wake up, as for tibet, india has neither more ligitmacy nor more power than china now.
your guys have no chance to march into lhasa under your own flag today.


Nice chinese try to change the focus.

It is the other way around - the reason this thread was started. It is teh Chinese that do not have the power to enter India.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Liu » 08 Apr 2017 05:42

NRao wrote:
guy,wake up, as for tibet, india has neither more ligitmacy nor more power than china now.
your guys have no chance to march into lhasa under your own flag today.


Nice chinese try to change the focus.

It is the other way around - the reason this thread was started. It is teh Chinese that do not have the power to enter India.

but it can not stop guys like suraj to imagine the glory of marching in lhasa in the thread..

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 08 Apr 2017 06:15

Liu wrote:but it can not stop guys like suraj to imagine the glory of marching in lhasa in the thread..

Stopping people from talking is a Chinese speciality - which was honed to perfection by Mao's cultural erasure.

But I have been remiss. More info and videos coming up. I was waiting for the Dalai Lama to reach Tawang.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby NRao » 08 Apr 2017 06:40

Liu wrote:
NRao wrote:
Nice chinese try to change the focus.

It is the other way around - the reason this thread was started. It is teh Chinese that do not have the power to enter India.

but it can not stop guys like suraj to imagine the glory of marching in lhasa in the thread..


The imagination is on teh Chinese side. And, the cat is out of the bag, now that a Chinese leader has spilt the beans on how China can harass India (using other nations in the region). :)

Like I said, china does not have the balls to go it "under her own flag". Which is why she always opts to buy her way through.

I fully expect China to make trouble under some other flag - typical.

But, fully expect China to rewrite history too. And do it with a very straight face. Typical.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby tandav » 08 Apr 2017 06:53

Liu wrote:
tandav wrote:Liu. Please keep India out of this discussion. I want to know how valid was this abdication receipt of Qing. I the emperor of my toilet seat proclaim ownership of all provinces of China since the gas I passed has wafted all over your country via tradewinds and hence was a heavenly tribute and blessing. I hereby declare that me and my ancestors willing to abdicate my benign and just rule of all Chinese land to anyone who can genocide you all out of your land. Does this sound fair to you? Should you get a vote?


even if you holy emperor toilet gave you the legitmacy,your 'proclaim' of course would not work,because you can not receive the support of powers.


in the world, the legitmacy can never work alone,without the suppport of powers.

otherwise,china would have never allowed outer mogolia to break away and took tibet back,while china had same legitmany to claim both( both were the throne dominions of Qing empimre)

after 1911 chinese revolution,outer mogolia and tibet both gained the status of actual self ~domination and tried to break away from china completely.


outer mogolia succeeded ,because its supportor soviets outpowered china.

tibet failed ,because china outpowered its supporter india.


if india had outpowered pakistan completely, the whole kashimir would be controlled by india.


India actually did not fight for Tibet due to our tryst with nonviolence and sympathy to a sister civilization China coming out of European colonial occupation. Back in the day we were ruled by a pacifist Nehru who did not realize that China is also an expansionist colonial power. His mistakes and foolishness has cost India a lot. Mao on the other hand though a genocidal ruler has expanded China outside its actual limit which is only the Qing province in 1911.

The best would be that Tibet becomes a Peace park with India and China jointly maintaining it and making it a place where Indian and Chinese can protect its fragile ecosystem and allow the native Tibetians to prosper. We must endeavor to make it a place where Indian Dharmic philosophy and Chinese Taoism is practiced. Tibet has long since been a place where generations of ancient Indians have made their journey in the Sanyasa stage of during end of life to contemplate the universe and collate their thoughts for others to follow.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby NRao » 08 Apr 2017 07:24

Peace and China?

Like Pakistan and Pure.

We will have to agree to redefine both "peace" and "pure" for this to work.

But, anyways, it was fun.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Liu » 08 Apr 2017 07:49

tandav wrote:
Liu wrote:
even if you holy emperor toilet gave you the legitmacy,your 'proclaim' of course would not work,because you can not receive the support of powers.


in the world, the legitmacy can never work alone,without the suppport of powers.

otherwise,china would have never allowed outer mogolia to break away and took tibet back,while china had same legitmany to claim both( both were the throne dominions of Qing empimre)

after 1911 chinese revolution,outer mogolia and tibet both gained the status of actual self ~domination and tried to break away from china completely.


outer mogolia succeeded ,because its supportor soviets outpowered china.

tibet failed ,because china outpowered its supporter india.


if india had outpowered pakistan completely, the whole kashimir would be controlled by india.


India actually did not fight for Tibet due to our tryst with nonviolence and sympathy to a sister civilization China coming out of European colonial occupation. Back in the day we were ruled by a pacifist Nehru who did not realize that China is also an expansionist colonial power. His mistakes and foolishness has cost India a lot. Mao on the other hand though a genocidal ruler has expanded China outside its actual limit which is only the Qing province in 1911.

The best would be that Tibet becomes a Peace park with India and China jointly maintaining it and making it a place where Indian and Chinese can protect its fragile ecosystem and allow the native Tibetians to prosper. We must endeavor to make it a place where Indian Dharmic philosophy and Chinese Taoism is practiced. Tibet has long since been a place where generations of ancient Indians have made their journey in the Sanyasa stage of during end of life to contemplate the universe and collate their thoughts for others to follow.


i do think that assam or kashimir is the better place to test your ideality than tibet.

how about make the two places 'peaceful parks' jointly maitained by china and india ,practising taoism and dharmic in the two regions and make the local native prosper?

i am sure that no chinese would be against the plan!

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby ranjan.rao » 08 Apr 2017 09:50

Lou first show us your legitimacy in Tibet and then ask others about such things... Do you people expect high morals from others .. Or you've no hope from yourselves... Are you paid for this or self motivated for spouting such illogical stuff

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Deans » 08 Apr 2017 11:58

I'm not sure why we're feeding the troll. The original thread has got derailed.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Ashokk » 08 Apr 2017 14:14

A bit OT but still relevant to this thread. Some pictures from the events leading up to the Sino-Soviet border conflict in 1969.

Image
PLA soldiers argue with soviet soldiers with Mao's red book in hand

Image
Soviet soldiers chase away PLA provocateurs using sticks backed up by a BTR

Image
Soviet border guards at the no.1 border post with "special weapons". The forked sticks were used for "contact-less" push back of chinese soldiers from soviet territory. :mrgreen:

Image
Soviet soldiers push back chinese from soviet territory.

Image
Chinese soldiers try to provoke a fight by using rifle butts as clubs.

So the tactics being used by the chinese on the indian borders are not new. The arguments put forth by the Chinese leadership were eerily similar.
From Wikipedia:
Amid heightening tensions, the Soviet Union and China began border talks. In spite of the fact that the Soviet Union had granted all of the territory of the Japanese puppet state of Manchukuo to Mao's communists in 1945, decisively assisting the communists in the Chinese Civil War, the Chinese now indirectly demanded territorial concessions on the basis that the 19th-century treaties transferring ownership of the sparsely populated Outer Manchuria, concluded by Qing dynasty China and Tsarist Russia, were "unequal", and amounted to annexation of supposedly rightful Chinese territory. Moscow would not accept this interpretation, but by 1964 the two sides did reach a preliminary agreement on the eastern section of the border, including Zhenbao Island, which would be handed over to China.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby tandav » 08 Apr 2017 18:44

Liu wrote:
tandav wrote:
The best would be that Tibet becomes a Peace park with India and China jointly maintaining it and making it a place where Indian and Chinese can protect its fragile ecosystem and allow the native Tibetians to prosper. We must endeavor to make it a place where Indian Dharmic philosophy and Chinese Taoism is practiced. Tibet has long since been a place where generations of ancient Indians have made their journey in the Sanyasa stage of during end of life to contemplate the universe and collate their thoughts for others to follow.


i am sure that no chinese would be against the plan!


Given that India has as legitimate a claim to Tibet as China given that Tibet was once under Indian political rule under the Sikhs I think it is Tibet that should be the place where this peace park should be made. All Chinese including many ancient travelers agree that India has a greater claim on Tibet since it was under the Spiritual dominion of India since time immemorial along with other parts of China which I think we should also bring under the ambit of the Peace park. There are many old manuscripts in India where Kings of China paid tribute to India and accepted its dominion and wisdom.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby GShankar » 08 Apr 2017 21:21

Let's make entire china a peace park. Don't every chinese agree that they need peace?

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Suraj » 10 Apr 2017 11:17

Liu wrote:guy,wake up, as for tibet, india has neither more ligitmacy nor more power than china now.
your guys have no chance to march into lhasa under your own flag today.

Fighting for it under our own flag would be stupid and pointless.That's the sort of brainless thing your buddies in Pakistan do. Sounds like the same mindset if rubbing off on you.

It's easier to make China let go of it on its own, the same way it never had control over Tibet in the first place, for most of recorded history. China is always reliable at screwing things up periodically. Your entire history is full of great successes followed by complete breakdown. Every Chinese is painfully aware of that truth about your psyche and culture.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby TKiran » 10 Apr 2017 12:40

Wow, Liu is exactly like any other Chinese you will find in entire Han core. It's good to have discussion like this, so that more and more Indians understand their middle Kingdom psyche. Very typical.

Coming to how we can defeat and unravel China, we have two choices,
1. Proactive 2. Reactive.

To invade and occupy and colonize is not our Dharma be it Tibet or Pakistan or Bangladesh.

The proactive approach is to break Pakistan into pieces and thence unravel China.

The reactive approach is to break Pakistan into pieces and thence unravel China after Pakistan makes the bid of their master and damages some cities in India.

We really don't have any direct option to break China (Han core).

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby manjgu » 10 Apr 2017 12:55

Tkiran..breakup of pakistan will not unravel china... pakis are at best whores for the chinese...there is some tactical gain but its loss not sufficient to unravel china. Breakup of pakistan means we can focus on chinese alone. As i mentioned once on some thread while listening to a senior IA officer in Tenga ( AP) giving a briefing in his ops room ' chinese have this thing about not losing face and this is one reason why they not doing anything similar to 1962..now they are not at all sure of a victory " .

if we have just one border to take care..that feeling of being not sure about victory will grow..thats the max that can happen with a paki breakup.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby chola » 10 Apr 2017 13:24

Deans wrote:I'm not sure why we're feeding the troll. The original thread has got derailed.



Why do we keep him around? That is the question.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Liu » 10 Apr 2017 13:35

manjgu wrote:Tkiran..breakup of pakistan will not unravel china... pakis are at best whores for the chinese...there is some tactical gain but its loss not sufficient to unravel china. Breakup of pakistan means we can focus on chinese alone. As i mentioned once on some thread while listening to a senior IA officer in Tenga ( AP) giving a briefing in his ops room ' chinese have this thing about not losing face and this is one reason why they not doing anything similar to 1962..now they are not at all sure of a victory " .

if we have just one border to take care..that feeling of being not sure about victory will grow..thats the max that can happen with a paki breakup.


1.Qing empires had 5 dominions, Which were China proper(18 Han provinces),Manchuria,Mongolia,Xinjiang and Tibet.

half of mongolia(Outer Mongolia )broke away in 1923-1946,thus modern China in fact successful suceeds 4.5 dominions from Qing empire.

2. the 4.5 dominions are sinicized seriously and had few chance to break away.

after later Qing Dynasty,Imperial administrations encounraged Han~Chinese to Manchuria,Mongolia,xinjiang and tibet.

now, the percentage of Han/all is 90%+(Manchuria),80%
(inner mongolia),40-45%(xinjiang) and 10%(tibet auto region).


as for xinjiang, Han(40-45%) and Uygurs(40%) are top two populous ethnic, and the rest are 12 ethnic(Hui,Mongols and so on).

and it is quite interesting that almost all the 'rest' (15-20 %of xinjiang population) are pro~Han and against Uygurs's plan of an indendent 'East turkistan'

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Lisa » 10 Apr 2017 14:05

By the above logic most of China is Mongolian?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_Empire

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby TKiran » 10 Apr 2017 14:46

Liu wrote:
1.Qing empires had 5 dominions, Which were China proper(18 Han provinces),Manchuria,Mongolia,Xinjiang and Tibet.

half of mongolia(Outer Mongolia )broke away in 1923-1946,thus modern China in fact successful suceeds 4.5 dominions from Qing empire.

2. the 4.5 dominions are sinicized seriously and had few chance to break away.

after later Qing Dynasty,Imperial administrations encounraged Han~Chinese to Manchuria,Mongolia,xinjiang and tibet.

now, the percentage of Han/all is 90%+(Manchuria),80%
(inner mongolia),40-45%(xinjiang) and 10%(tibet auto region).


as for xinjiang, Han(40-45%) and Uygurs(40%) are top two populous ethnic, and the rest are 12 ethnic(Hui,Mongols and so on).

and it is quite interesting that almost all the 'rest' (15-20 %of xinjiang population) are pro~Han and against Uygurs's plan of an indendent 'East turkistan'


Liu, I couldn't have put it better than you.

This is the typical middle Kingdom psyche.

The reason why the Chinese throughout their history could not hold on to this middle Kingdom is their hubris, somewhere some link breaks, the whole middle Kingdom collapses.

The problem with middle Kingdom syndrome is that they think that middle Kingdom is concentric circles., Actually it is a chain of links, and the strength of the chain is the strength of the weakest link. Every time one link breaks, the whole chain is broken.

That's the reason I say, if CPEC failed, the whole China will fail. And for CPEC to fail, we need to break Pakistan.

The hubris is that, even if CPEC failed, the Han core would be intact, but it is not so, there are any number of people internally who would bring down the complete idea of China, even when they see a competitor to China. Atleast a few people in the core of CCP know this. That is the reason for the hyperbole of China regarding the huge resistance in India., And they are hoping that this resistance from India could be turned around. If not the whole world would see India as a competitor to China, and it will be forced to deal with internal problems, which will trigger chain reaction which CCP may not be able to control. There's huge thinking going on in CCP core how to bring about political reforms, but India is creating trouble too soon. CCP keeps on pounding their peasants with propaganda that they are going to subjugate India soon., But the Han core is watching the developments very closely, inspite of heavy sensorship. They cannot allow India to appear causing hurdles to CPEC or by using Dalai Lama.

Similarly the Chinese thinking is also that if they can somehow make Kashmir secede from India, the entire India will unravel.

Expect more direct intervention in Kashmir from China, through its province Pakistan.

The only problem for China has been that they cannot fight aar paar ki ladaayi with India, they know they will be defeated this time, because India would not agree for ceasefire, once they launch surprise attack and held on to some land.

1962 has passed.

Tibet is a natural buffer between India and China, even if it is under the occupation of imperial China.

US is a marginal player. At best US can be used by China as "use and throw" tissue paper. But India is adamant not falling in line.

Interesting times for sure.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby manjgu » 10 Apr 2017 15:37

Tkiran..CPEC does not exist in any meaninful way as of today..has that unraveled china? your historical perspective is interesting but its conclusions are too far fetched IMHO. I dont think there are enough people to bring down china ..as more and more people see benefits of economic rise of China. CPEC IMHO is peripheral to economic interests of CHina..it has more military value than economic value.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby TKiran » 10 Apr 2017 15:48

manjgu wrote:Tkiran..CPEC does not exist in any meaninful way as of today..has that unraveled china? your historical perspective is interesting but its conclusions are too far fetched IMHO. I dont think there are enough people to bring down china ..as more and more people see benefits of economic rise of China. CPEC IMHO is peripheral to economic interests of CHina..it has more military value than economic value.


Manjgu sir, based on what little interaction I had with common Han Chinese, I can tell you the Han are very very agitated people in recent times., Very difficult to keep them under control through propaganda any more, this is the latest development and it's my own opinion, of course.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby manjgu » 10 Apr 2017 16:01

i believe even in India...there are lot of agitated people espicially in the middle class...who constantly bitch abt goberment etc etc. but i dont believe that these are the people to bring down India ( i agree the psyche of two countries are different). China has seen stupendous economic rise and of the little interaction i have had with hans..they all are too preoccupied with making money, shopping, travelling to really bring down China ! its my opinion as well... i am yet to see a Han criticise their goberment .. could be for a variety of reasons but i dont believe their angst is soo much to contemplate unraveling their country.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Suraj » 10 Apr 2017 20:36

Lisa wrote:By the above logic most of China is Mongolian?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_Empire

The first fallacy in your argument is to apply the term 'logic'.

Chinese argument: if we were overrun by someone, their area is now Chinese. If someone asks China for tribute, that land becomes Chinese. If China asked for tribute from someone, that area is also Chinese. If someone else asked for tribute from the same place, the region asking tribute is also Chinese!

Han Chinese have no qualms about hating Qing symbolisms (pigtails etc) while simultaneously asserting Qing territorial claims. The Qing (Manchu foreign invaders) were responsible for the violent end of what they consider the last and greatest Han empire - the Ming Dynasty. In fact, there used to exist a tree on the imperial palace grounds where the last Ming emperor fled to from the palaces as it was overrun, and hung himself from. That tree was cut down during the Cultural Revolution.

Getting back to territory, was Tibet under the Ming Empire ? Nope. Not Xinjiang either. Ironically, Tibet appears under Chinese empires only under the two foreign empires - Yuan (Mongol) and Qing (Manchu). The Han Chinese themselves never have. Not the Ming, Tang, Song, Jin, Han, Qin...

In fact one must remember that none of these empires had a huge amount of overlap. PRC today is in fact the most widest extent of historical Chinese territory. Throughout history, actual Chinese empires were much smaller. The first Qin Dynasty for example, was just a small sliver of eastern China.

In India, we don't call something an Indian empire unless it controlled most of current Indian territory. Even before there was Qin, the Mauryan Empire encompassed nearly all of India. That's the funny thing. If Chinese logic for empirical succession is applied, India also has continuous dynasties. On the other hand, if Indian standards for empire are applied, China doesn't have continuous empires either. The most analogous argument is claiming India's continuous empires consist of whoever's ruling the Gangetic plain at any given time.

The bottomline is that the current extent of China is... overextended. They have never continuously held Occupied TIbet, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia, Heilongjiang at all. None of the major Han empires have. The Qing was the first to do so. Chinese should be left to keep fighting to hold on, because history shows that they ultimately collapse and recede into the 'traditional Chinese areas, i.e. vertical line running east of Burma and horizontal line running south of Mongolia. PRC today is just an entity trying to control lands it never controlled historically.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby TKiran » 10 Apr 2017 20:58

Suraj San, excellently put, that is the reason why the truth is not Bengal, the truth is Kerala. (ducking for cover) :wink:

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 10 Apr 2017 21:56

Truth is - it is not easy to "hold Tibet". Tibet is hostile - I mean the climate and geography. When you send a soldier to Tibet - you are sending him far faaar from home to a place where he can't even frickin breathe and on top of that there is a hostile population. It is always cold. He may be given luxuries like living in quarters with enriched oxygen. Colleagues will be constantly evacuated for altitude sickness and "downhill" is not 20 or 50 km or a helicopter ride away. It is 2000 km away. Holding morale under these circumstances can't be easy. I betcha they can't get much by way of sex and girlfriends there.

It's not even easy to get to Tibet from eastern China - so it needs to be "held". For all this talk of Sinicization of provinces - it looks like Tibet is not Sinicized enough for Tibetans to stay calm and praise the politiburo if Han soldiers go away. It's not as if only China has a history. Tibet has a history and a history of a proud independent nation

This is not to belittle Chinese military strength - but that strength is going to be put to some serious stress if push comes to shove. Bluster and shit like "You are too poor and you cant afford it" are just verbal masturbation

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby nam » 10 Apr 2017 22:19

shiv wrote:This is not to belittle Chinese military strength - but that strength is going to be put to some serious stress if push comes to shove. Bluster and shit like "You are too poor and you cant afford it" are just verbal masturbation


That is what pis*** off the Chinese. Despite being on the verge of collapse in 91, India has managed to maintain a million plus army.

The reality is in Asia there is only two armies which are the roadblock for PLA domination in Asia. Russian & Indian army. What irritates the Chinese that we are still able to maintain such a large force despite being poor & in constant fight with Pakis, bank rolled by them.

If India become a real threat, they would have to maintain a very large force in Tibet in horrible conditions to defend against IA. This will drain huge resources in a place where there is very less chance of wining a fight.

The Chinese are trying to convince themselves that "India is poor, wont be able to fight...", as that they don't have to defend against it!

Self delusion really.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby NRao » 11 Apr 2017 00:37

Ted Fishman, of China Inc fame, today on NPR, was saying that the latest narrative from China: "we know the US is not at fault. We know that all this about SCS, etc, is originating from Tokyo". :rotfl:


Chinese are the greatest at creating stuff.

We live in a very interesting time. We have three great alt news-ers. Xi of China, Putin of Russia and Trump of the US.

Between them they will go about creating a brand new universe. Imaginary, no doubt, but that will not deter them.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Suraj » 11 Apr 2017 01:45

shiv wrote:Holding morale under these circumstances can't be easy. I betcha they can't get much by way of sex and girlfriends there.

Well there are always yaks. Lots of them. Their dear tarrel than the deepest ocean and deeper than the tallest mountain friends and show them the professional approach to it while avoiding pulmonary edema from the exertion. Maybe Bulbuddin Ghusaomatyar can conduct executive seminar series for Chinese troops stationed in Lhasa.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby chola » 11 Apr 2017 02:07

nam wrote:
shiv wrote:This is not to belittle Chinese military strength - but that strength is going to be put to some serious stress if push comes to shove. Bluster and shit like "You are too poor and you cant afford it" are just verbal masturbation


That is what pis*** off the Chinese. Despite being on the verge of collapse in 91, India has managed to maintain a million plus army.

The reality is in Asia there is only two armies which are the roadblock for PLA domination in Asia. Russian & Indian army. What irritates the Chinese that we are still able to maintain such a large force despite being poor & in constant fight with Pakis, bank rolled by them.

If India become a real threat, they would have to maintain a very large force in Tibet in horrible conditions to defend against IA. This will drain huge resources in a place where there is very less chance of wining a fight.

The Chinese are trying to convince themselves that "India is poor, wont be able to fight...", as that they don't have to defend against it!

Self delusion really.


But therein lies the run, Sir. A delusional man benefits from his delusions as long as the outside world does not intrude.

The PRC does not maintain much force in Tibet or along the Indian border as Shiv pointed out. It is too expensive to do so.

Unless we show them otherwise, they will continue benefiting from utilizing a bare bones force in Tibet while using that money among others to build a massive navy -- not necessarily even to fight but to overwhelm the stakes at sea during peace time. They are benefiting again and again from a military buildup even though they haven't fought a proper war in four decades or so. All because no one is willing to kick them in the arse.

I had purpose earlier in this thread that we prepare a plan for a nice little war to regain everything lost during 1962 and maybe a bit more (perhaps everything up to Lhasa.). Now a sino-unkil war would be ideal for such an undertaking but if not then why not use one of the many PLA intrusions as a pre-text to go all out?

At some point, 1962 must be reckoned with. If they are turning their back on us in arrogance then good, let's knock them the hell down by hitting them in the back of the head.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby SBajwa » 11 Apr 2017 02:20

G19 highway that goes to Lhasa passes north of Lake Mansarovar and south of Mt. Kailash (Kangriboqi peak).

Why are they renaming these historically identified monuments of Bharat?

Which lake is mansoravar? I see two lakes.

https://www.google.com/maps/@30.8379082 ... a=!3m1!1e3

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby NRao » 11 Apr 2017 02:21

China has used Pakistan, at very low cost, to keep India in (semi?) check. And, since th Dalai Lama's trip to AP, they have talked about using other friendly nations to play mischief. So, China can keep the levels in Tibet and still use other means to keep India in check. It is these other nations that India should have tackled up until now and should tackle in the future.

On the flip side, I have aslo believed, that these nations will realize the game. China Punjab Economic Corridor (CPEC) is one such example. Some in Pakistan have actually renamed it as such.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 11 Apr 2017 07:58

chola wrote:The PRC does not maintain much force in Tibet or along the Indian border as Shiv pointed out. It is too expensive to do so.

To refine that statement a little bit - with a short recap. There are 4 main roads leading down to eastern India from Chinese highways in Tibet. Three lead to Arunachal Pradesh, and one to Sikkim

1. The easternmost - the provincial road S 201 is the one going towards the Walong area is in rough mountainous terrain. The road follows a narrow river valley and enters India as the Lohit river valley. This road does not come via the Tibetan plain but via the eastern limit of the Himalayas - so there are no flat areas to build towns or settlements or even roads. The road pretty much faithfully follows the river valley which is itself over 2500-2800 meters up and on either side are forested mountainsides going up all the way above the treeline to 4000 to 4500 meters. Attacks from this area are possible by men or foot or special forces. There is no easy place for a motorized attack force to come.

2. The next road coming towards India is a little further west of the S 201 (described above). In fact this road is the shortest one from the Chinese highways to the Indian border. It literally runs along the Tsangpo river valley just after the great bend and the river enters Arunachal Pradesh in the form of a Z-bend to become the Siang river which later becomes the Brahmaputra. Although it is the shortest road ~90 km to the Indian border it also runs through such rough mountainous terrain that the area was cut off for 6 months a year from the rest of China until recently. The road runs from a town called Bowo on the main China-Tibet highway to a town called Medog which is about 20 odd km from the Indian border. In the last 7-8 years the Chinese have improved their own access ro Medog from Bowo by building a 9 km long tunnel in the mountain road from Bowo to Medog. Even so this remains a treacherous route and beyond Medog into India there is no road - only narrow valley and mountain trails. Again this mountain area does not offer places for large military establishments. The Chinese have only a small visible military footprint in this area.

3. The third road from highways to India is the S-202 Provincial road to the Tawang area. My last video was about this road.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azQlfT9Iv4s
The S-202 is about 200 km long from highway to the Tawang border at Bum La. It is along this road that the Chinese have the most visibly large military presence in the Eastern region. This area is where the Chine esit on the heights and Tawang is down on the slopes reading to Tawang Chu river.

4. The last "eastern road" from highways to India is near Nathu La in Sikkim - the S-204 provincial road. I am currently working on a video describing this. This is where the Chinese received a drubbing in 1967. This is also where the Chinese road comes all the way up to the Indian border where Indian tourists can photograph the Chinese road and PLA guardsmen, marvel at the road and say how the Chinese have built excellent roads all the way to the Indian border. India occupies high ground with a commanding view of the Chinese side in this area.

The S-204 is a much longer road distance from the main Chinese highway than the S-202 to Tawang. The S-204 to Nathu La is 300 km long and it comes from a town called Xigaze to Nathu La. Xigaze has a railway line from Lhasa - and Lhasa is connected via the railway to the rest of China. I will do a separate piece about the railway. Xigaze (or Shigatse) has an airfield also - situated at 3800 km high and a 5 km long runway and is not a great one for heavily laden aircraft to take off. Chinese military presence along the S-204 is less heavy and less robust than along the S-202 to Tawang

I must mention here that there is a Chinese airfield - Nyingchi that is literally 15 km from the Indian border. It is within artillery shelling distance but there is no road from this area to India - the airfield is in a valley that runs parallel to the Arunachal Pradesh border with 5 km high mountains separating the valley from the border. I have looked at the area in some detail. There may be some mountain trails for men to cross - but this does not look like a great area to start an invasion

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Liu » 11 Apr 2017 09:43

if india wants to march into tibet ,india army have to climb and cross hymalayas .

the poor infrastructures in hymalayas means terrible ligistics and only limited india troops can be deployed effectively along the frontier,however many troops india has.

it also means less chinese troops on tibet highland can defend effectively there.
morever,good infrastructure in tibet means that enough PLA troops can move into tibet in short time when necessory.

so, it is well known that only 20-30k PLA(several brigades+several additional regiments) are deployed in tibet,while at least 200k indian troops are deployed along india~china border.
Last edited by Liu on 11 Apr 2017 09:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 11 Apr 2017 09:51

Liu wrote:it also means less chinese troops on tibet highland can defend effectively there.
morever,good infrastructure in tibet means that enough PLA troops can move into tibet in short time when necessory.

Absolutely true. So it is to India' advantage to make the Chinese defend Tibet inside Tibet. That is the whole idea.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Liu » 11 Apr 2017 10:19

shiv wrote:
Liu wrote:it also means less chinese troops on tibet highland can defend effectively there.
morever,good infrastructure in tibet means that enough PLA troops can move into tibet in short time when necessory.

Absolutely true. So it is to India' advantage to make the Chinese defend Tibet inside Tibet. That is the whole idea.

india deployed much more troops along sino~india border than china,but so many indians are stll worried about the imagined 'invasion from china',while few chinese are worried about 'invasion from india'.


the case just proves that facing china, india is offensive tactically while defensive strategically

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby yensoy » 11 Apr 2017 10:21

Liu wrote:
shiv wrote:Absolutely true. So it is to India' advantage to make the Chinese defend Tibet inside Tibet. That is the whole idea.

india deployed much more troops along sino~india border than china,but so many indians are stll worried about the imagined 'invasion from china',while few chinese are worried about 'invasion from india'.

the case just proves that facing china, india is offensive tactically while defensive strategically


That is a ridiculous conclusion. Major Indian population centers are within 100-200km of border with Tibet, not so the case on the Tibetan plateau side. So it's obvious that there will be more people stationed on the Indian side, because amongst other things this is where they live.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby rohitvats » 11 Apr 2017 10:30

Shiv, when you're looking at the Sikkim sector, do look at the road network into the Chumbi Valley. You'll notice that the Indo-Tibet border along the whole north-south alignment of Chumbi Valley runs along a ridge-line. And there are many roads/tracks which go from the valley floor towards the ridge line from Tibetan side. We've corresponding access roads/tracks from our side. Theoretically, Chinese can launch attacks along multiple locations along this border on east-west axis. But it also means that Indians can move east and completely isolate PLA troops in Chumbi Valley.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Philip » 11 Apr 2017 11:16

This thankless attitude from the sh*thole of mainland China,is a PR blessing ,as it grabs worldwide attention as to the attitude of the PRC.The enxt time a Chinese vessel is in distress ,we should either make a deal with the pirates to kidnap the entire Chinese crew or sink the vessel "since it was trying to sink an IN warship!" It also brings into stark reality the importance of the new Chinese naval base at Djibouti,which along with Gwadar is going to cause a tremendous headache for the IN in any future clash with Pak,China or both. We too need to explore the poss. of a naval base in any E.African nation and seize the opportunity.

China says navy rescues ship from pirates, omits Indian role
By CHRISTOPHER BODEEN, ASSOCIATED PRESS BEIJING — Apr 10, 2017, 8:25 AM ET
The Associated Press
FILE - In this July 3, 2012 file photo released by China's Xinhua News Agency, the 12th Chinese naval flotilla, consisting of frigate "Yiyang", left, frigate "Changzhou" center, and comprehensive supply ship "Qiandaohu", prepare to set sail for the escort mission in the Gulf of Aden and Somali waters to protect commercial ships from pirate attacks at a port in Zhoushan, east China's Zhejiang Province. China's navy said Monday, April 10, 2017, its forces rescued a freighter from attack by pirates in the Gulf of Aden over the weekend. Missing from the report was any mention of the participation of the Indian navy, which says it dispatched four ships and a helicopter to provide cover for the action. (Hu Sheyou/Xinhua via AP)more

China's navy says its forces rescued a freighter from attack by pirates in the Gulf of Aden over the weekend. Missing from the report was any mention of the participation of the Indian navy, which says it dispatched four ships and a helicopter to provide cover for the action.

The omission was likely no accident. Deep distrust persists between the two nuclear-armed Asian giants, and in recent days, China has angrily denounced New Delhi over a visit by exiled Tibetan spiritual leader the Dalai Lama to an Indian border area that China claims as its own territory.

Asked about that lack of mention of India's part in the operation, Chinese foreign ministry spokeswoman Hua Chunying referred questions to the defense ministry, where no spokesman was immediately available for comment.

"We believe the aforementioned operation demonstrated the effectiveness of China's naval forces in the field of fighting against pirates, as well as China's image as a responsible major country in safeguarding regional peace and stability," Hua told reporters at a daily news briefing on Monday.

"We are always positive toward international counter-piracy operations," she added.

No casualties or damage were reported in the incident, which unfolded between Saturday night and early Sunday morning.

The Chinese navy's statement said a distress signal was received late Saturday from the captain of the Tuvalu-flagged OS35 saying it was under attack by an unknown number of pirates aboard a single boat. Steaming to the area, the missile frigate Yulin then circled the ship while its helicopter hovered above.

The statement said 16 members of the Chinese special forces were lowered onto the ship by helicopter at dawn Sunday and released the 19 crew members from the strong room where they had taken shelter, while also searching the ship to ensure there were no further threats. The statement made no mention of any arrests or other contact with the pirates.

India's account differed slightly but did mention China's participation.

A statement from the Indian defense ministry said the Indian navy ships Mumbai, Tarkash, Trishul and Aditya had been sailing toward the Mediterranean Sea when they responded to the distress call and "rapidly closed the merchant vessel" by early Sunday." After an Indian navy helicopter flew over on Sunday morning, crew members emerged and "ascertained that the pirates had fled the ship at night."

"Subsequently, in a show of international maritime cooperation against piracy, a boarding from the nearby Chinese navy ship went on board the merchant ship, while the Indian naval helicopter provided air cover for the operation," the statement said.

India and China fought a brief but bloody border war in 1962 and each makes large claims on territory controlled by the other. That includes India's remote northeastern state of Arunachal Pradesh, to which the Dalai Lama traveled last week amid angry denunciations from Beijing. Hua, the foreign ministry spokeswoman, said last week that the visit "severely harms China's interests and the China-India relationship," and that China did not consider it an Indian internal affair.

The Dalai Lama and his followers have been living in exile in northern India since they fled Tibet after a failed 1959 uprising against Chinese rule. China accuses Tibetan Buddhism's highest figure of using his religious status as cover for a campaign to win independence for Tibet, which was occupied by Chinese Communist forces in the early 1950s.

In general, China has been eager to highlight growing cooperation between its military and those of other nations in training and other operations, and the Yulin is part of the 25th anti-piracy squadron sent by China since it joined multinational patrols off the coast of Somalia in 2008.

That involvement offers both a sign of China's growing engagement in the global commons and valuable practice for its navy in operating far from home ports. The mission has also resulted in China building its first military base in a foreign country in the African Horn nation of Djibouti, mainly as a supply and recreation facility for its anti-piracy patrols and peacekeeping operations in South Sudan and elsewhere in Africa.

The navy says it has escorted a total of 6,337 Chinese and foreign vessels during its anti-piracy operations and intervened dozens of times in cases where ships were either attacked or pursued by pirates.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby NRao » 11 Apr 2017 11:33

Why are we surprised?

China rewrites history as she pleases.

Part of their DNA.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Suraj » 11 Apr 2017 11:49

Liu wrote:
shiv wrote:Absolutely true. So it is to India' advantage to make the Chinese defend Tibet inside Tibet. That is the whole idea.

india deployed much more troops along sino~india border than china,but so many indians are stll worried about the imagined 'invasion from china',while few chinese are worried about 'invasion from india'.

the case just proves that facing china, india is offensive tactically while defensive strategically

They aren't 'deployed there' . They are literally composed of hundreds of thousands of people FROM the areas near the border. There are 7 Gorkha regiments. Bihar Regiment, Punjab Regiment, Assam Regiment... and no, none of these were created in response to 1962. Almost all of them date back to the time of the Qianlong Emperor, or even the Kangxi Emperor, of the Qing Dynasty.

The Himalayas are steep. Maybe hard to cross, but the plains are a fairly short distance from the peaks, with Occupied Tibet on the other side. China simply cannot maintain such a large number of troops. You'd lose thousands every year to altitude sickness. Not to mention that you Hans wouldn't trust a single non Han in the CPC Central Committee. That's right, how many Tibetans or Turkestanis do you have in the CPC upper echelons ? Zero. You can't risk training and arming hundreds of thousands of Tibetans and Turkestanis, because you and I know what will happen. They'll shoot YOU, not us.

We don't need to fight China for Tibet, because Tibet belongs to Tibetans. We're quite happy to help *them* get Tibet back. You on the other hand, to fight us, you have to live among people who hate you and will kill you if you ever trained or armed them.


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