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Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Philip » 27 Jan 2017 13:00

We must begin with defining our grand strategy in dealing with China. Tactics in the Himalayas comes later.The most important is to limit the spread of Chinese influence in our backyard the IOR.Our supine and spineless MEA has allowed the Chinese to poach in SL,squat in Gwadar and now sell subs to BDesh. We asininely imagine,as some channels and analysts are doing,that by simply inviting the Crown Prince of the UAE as CG for the R-Day parade,they will abandon Pak! The Saudis have just appointed the former Paki army chief as head of the (Sunni) Arab "NATO",who will have command over UAE mil forces! We seem to have forgotten/ignored our Char Bahar gambit with Iran,encircling Pak and an opening into Central Asia and Russia,where progress is crawling in comparison with the Chinese Silk Route using Gwadar.Djibouti is already in the PRC's pocket and we're still debating whether to "spend money" or not, in Trinco-offered to us by SL!

What India has failed to do is to play both "T" cards. In TIbet,we must strike/seal a deal with the Dalai Lama to declare Tibet as an Indian protectorate,like Bhutan,now under Chinese occupation by force. We must also expand our relations with Taiwan and threaten to recognise it fully if China does not halt its mischief in Tibet and limits its mil help to Pak.When we have a trade imbalance of $50B,what the sh*t are we doing about it? Trump is to levy high tariffs on Mexcian and Chinese goods,we must do the same. In both the mil and eco spheres,we must hit China hard,by supplying advanced weaponry,esp. our desi missiles to its enemies.Trade barriers will ensure that the $50B loss is extinguished with one stroke, It is only when other smaller nations see India act like a bold great power will they gravitate to our side.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby AdityaM » 27 Jan 2017 21:29

Maybe this link is relevant. Not read fully

https://warontherocks.com/2017/01/hard- ... ith-china/

(Hope I am not posting a link already on BRF)

There are certain enduring misperceptions regarding the military balance along the Sino-Indian border. The most common is that China’s localized military strength along the LAC far outweighs India’s. In reality, India possesses a clear advantage in terms of sheer numbers of troops. With regard to airpower, New Delhi also possesses something of an edge,

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 27 Jan 2017 21:50

AdityaM wrote:Maybe this link is relevant. Not read fully

https://warontherocks.com/2017/01/hard- ... ith-china/

(Hope I am not posting a link already on BRF)

There are certain enduring misperceptions regarding the military balance along the Sino-Indian border. The most common is that China’s localized military strength along the LAC far outweighs India’s. In reality, India possesses a clear advantage in terms of sheer numbers of troops. With regard to airpower, New Delhi also possesses something of an edge,

Thanks for posting. A useful article - which I have as yet only scanned briefly.

However there is one important error - an error that is being propagated in Indian media. I see this error time and time again and now people believe it. Let me quote. The error is in bolded letters in red
Indeed, in contrast to the first wave of PLA troops flowing from the heights of the Tibetan plateau, Indian troops deployed from interior garrisons would be surged into combat before having been properly acclimatized. This would naturally also be the case for PLA reinforcements surged via high-speed rail. However, and in contrast to India, China has built a number of oxygen-rich, hyperbaric chambers in order to more rapidly acclimatize its follow-on forces.


This is a mistake. Having oxygen enriched chambers and barracks makes life more comfortable and high-altitude sickness less likely - but it only delays acclimatization.

Acclimatization is the process by which the human body gets accustomed to the lesser availability of oxygen at high altitudes. This involves a process by which the body manufactures more red blood cells and certain changes of adaptation in the kidneys. But for this to happen - you need to live with low oxygen for some weeks. If you simply live at high altitude and breathe extra oxygen, your body is not going to adapt to high altitude because it is not being faced by the stress of low oxygen.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Rakesh » 27 Jan 2017 22:05

Andaman and Nicobar Islands in light of Chinese actions in South China Sea
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/anda ... china-sea/

By Anushree Dutta - a Research Assistant at CLAWS

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 27 Jan 2017 22:37

A 2015 article detailing Chinese units and their locations
http://www.vifindia.org/article/2015/se ... s-in-tibet

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Lalmohan » 27 Jan 2017 23:38

the only advantage of hyperbaric chambers would be to recuperate troops suffering from altitude sickness...

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Philip » 28 Jan 2017 13:24

Ghastly! What I've been saying about our MEA/MOD babus,enunuchs.

The failure of India’s civilian bureaucracy to perceive the geostrategic significance of the islands is obvious in a way that the main radar station at Port Blair is turned off each night. At a time when the Malaysian government looked for data about the missing MH370 from India there was no data for sharing.[viii]

Read more at:
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/anda ... china-sea/

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 28 Jan 2017 15:03

Philip wrote:Ghastly! What I've been saying about our MEA/MOD babus,enunuchs.

The failure of India’s civilian bureaucracy to perceive the geostrategic significance of the islands is obvious in a way that the main radar station at Port Blair is turned off each night. At a time when the Malaysian government looked for data about the missing MH370 from India there was no data for sharing.[viii]

Read more at:
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/anda ... china-sea/

Let me add a rhetorical question here.

We argue so much about the idea of paying the frogs good money for their Rafales when we could have got something much cheaper, but when we do cheap, shit happens and we get butt kicked. So what is right?
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-malay ... JT20140315
Military systems, meanwhile, are often limited in their own coverage or just ignore aircraft they believe are on regular commercial flights. In some cases, they are simply switched off except during training and when a threat is expected.

That, one senior Indian official said, might explain why the Boeing 777 was not detected by installations on India's Andaman and Nicobar Islands, an archipelago which its planes were searching on Friday and Saturday, or elsewhere.

"We have many radar systems operating in this area, but nothing was picked up," Rear Admiral Sudhir Pillai, chief of staff of India's Andamans and Nicobar Command, told Reuters. "It's possible that the military radars were switched off as we operate on an 'as required' basis."

Separately, a defense source said that India did not keep its radar facilities operational at all times because of cost. Asked what the reason was, the source said: "Too expensive."


Also see
"Several nations will be embarrassed by how easy it is to trespass their airspace," said Air Vice Marshal Michael Harwood, a retired British Royal Air Force pilot and ex-defense attache to Washington DC. "Too many movies and Predator (unmanned military drone) feeds from Afghanistan have suckered people into thinking we know everything and see everything. You get what you pay for. And the world, by and large, does not pay."


I suspect fuel has to be shipped to A&N to work the generators to keep the radars running and watching and seeing nothing for weeks on end.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby UlanBatori » 28 Jan 2017 18:02

Brings to mind the old story. At this IAF base in the Northeast, the visitor was chatting with an old, old janitor, cleaning the latrines etc. "I was once an ace fighter pilot myself in WW2" he said. The visitor was amazed. Then why are you...
"Long story. In those days the Japanese would not let us sleep. Every night, every hour or so, the air raid sirens would go off. We had to scramble, race for the planes, warm up the engines and await orders to take off. None ever came, it was always some Japanese plane just skimming the edge of our radar coverage and triggering the alarm. We were all bleary-eyed, dead tired, going crazy from lack of sleep. Comrades were getting killed during daytime missions because of sheer tiredness. So I caught a monkey from the forest. Trained him with bananas and sweets. He was very smart too. Took him along on the nightly scrambles. Soon he learned to listen for the siren, race for the plane, turn on the engines, and wait for the stand-down to sound, shut off the engines and come back. I began to look smart, alert and happy and well-rested. The CO was amazed and promoted me to Squadron Leader".
Wow, and what happened?
"One night the Japanese actually came".
Oh! I see! And so you are permanently a Latrine Orderly.
"yes".
And what happened to the monkey?
"He is an Air Marshal (Retd) in the (Pakistan: *I don't want to get banned* :eek: ) Air Force".

No wonder they turn off the radar at night, hain?

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby deejay » 28 Jan 2017 18:21

UlanBatori wrote:Brings to mind the old story. At this IAF base in the Northeast, the visitor was chatting with an old, old janitor, cleaning the latrines etc. "I was once an ace fighter pilot myself in WW2" he said. The visitor was amazed. Then why are you...
"Long story. In those days the Japanese would not let us sleep. Every night, every hour or so, the air raid sirens would go off. We had to scramble, race for the planes, warm up the engines and await orders to take off. None ever came, it was always some Japanese plane just skimming the edge of our radar coverage and triggering the alarm. We were all bleary-eyed, dead tired, going crazy from lack of sleep. Comrades were getting killed during daytime missions because of sheer tiredness. So I caught a monkey from the forest. Trained him with bananas and sweets. He was very smart too. Took him along on the nightly scrambles. Soon he learned to listen for the siren, race for the plane, turn on the engines, and wait for the stand-down to sound, shut off the engines and come back. I began to look smart, alert and happy and well-rested. The CO was amazed and promoted me to Squadron Leader".
Wow, and what happened?
"One night the Japanese actually came".
Oh! I see! And so you are permanently a Latrine Orderly.
"yes".
And what happened to the monkey?
"He is an Air Marshal (Retd) in the (Pakistan: *I don't want to get banned* :eek: ) Air Force".

No wonder they turn off the radar at night, hain?

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Brilliant. Loved the story.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Singha » 28 Jan 2017 18:54

There is a cg owned radar on top of narcondam island also...few 100 mts above sea level i think...it monitor cheen activity on coco island

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 28 Jan 2017 20:05

shiv wrote:A 2015 article detailing Chinese units and their locations
http://www.vifindia.org/article/2015/se ... s-in-tibet

This link is a useful one regarding the Chinese perspective and the types of forces they maintain

An official Chinese media report in April 2015, claimed that the principle followed in the PLA’s deployment in the Tibet region is that of “lighter in the front, and heavier at the back”. It explained that there are three lines of defense. The first is the Border Defense Regiment, which is deployed nearest to the border; second is the Mountain Division whose objective is to safeguard Tibet; and the third comprises a division-level of Motorized Combat troops.


About the actual forces stationed in Tibet Note one "Chemical Warfare battalion" :D
  • Units Directly under Tibet Military District:
  • 15th Engineer Brigade (Dazi, Lhasa); Unit-77619,
    308 Artillery Regiment, Lhasa; Unit-77611,
  • 65th Air Defense Division, Lhasa; Unit-77616,
  • 16th Vehicle Regiment,
  • Lhasa; Communications Battalion,
  • Lhasa; Special Operations Division, Lhasa; Unit-77606,Lhasa。
  • 52nd Mountain Division(Bayi village, Linzhi County), Unit-77675;
  • Artillery Regiment (Nixi, Bayi village, Linzhi County) Unit-77678; 1st Battalion (Bujiu village, Linzhi County); 2nd Battalion (Yongjiu village, Linzhi County); 3rd Battalion (Yongjiu village, Linzhi County); 4th Battalion (Bujiu village, Linzhi County).
  • 53rd Mountain Brigade(Linzhi City, Milin County),Unit-77680;
  • Artillery Regiment (Jiage village, Linzhi City, Milin County) Unit-77683; First Battalion (Wolong village, Linzhi City, Milin County ); Second Battalion,(Gangga village, Linzhi County); 3rd Battalion ( Linzhi County),4th Battalion,(Wolong village, Linzhi City, Milin County).
  • 54th Armoured Brigade (High Plateau Cavalry- Due to the outstanding contribution to the completion of major tasks on January 13 2010 the CMC Chairman Hu Jintao signed a circular note of merit)( Lhasa City, Duilongdeqing County), Unit-77625;
  • an Artillery Regiment;
  • a mechanized infantry First Battalion; mechanized infantry 2nd Battalion; a mechanized infantry 3rd battalion;
  • Tank Battalion;
  • Chemical Warfare Battalion.
  • Border Defense Regiment of the Military Sub-District under Tibet Military District(also the Independent Battalions):
  • 1st Border Defense Regiment (Shannan City, Longzi County) Unit-77629: China-India and China-Bhutan Border.
  • 2nd Border Defense Regiment (Shannan City, Cuona County) Unit-77635: China-India, China-Bhutan Border.
  • Luoza County 5th Independent Battalion (Shannan City, Luoza County):China-Bhutan Border.
  • 3rd Border Defense Regiment (Shigatse City, Tingri County) Unit-77639: China-India and China Nepal Border.
  • 5th Border Defense Regiment (Shigatse City, Saga County) Unit 77646:China -Nepal Border.
  • 6th Border Defense Regiment (Shigatse City, Yadong County) Unit-77649:China-India and China Bhutan Border. (Nathula outpost is the 1st outpost of South West, Zhangniangshe Outpost of the 6th Border Defense Regiment is the Yunzhong outpost).
  • Gyantse 1st Independent Battalion (Shigatse City , Gyantse County) Unit -77655:China-India and China-Bhutan Border.
  • Gangba 2nd Independent Battalion (Shigatse City, Gangba County) Unit-77656:China-India Border. (Chaguola Outpost is the High Plateau Red Border Defense Troops).
  • 4th Border Defense Regiment (Chayu, Linzhi), Unit-77643:China-India Border.
  • Medog County 3rd Independent Battalion (Beibeng village, Linzhi City, Medog County); Medog Garrison , Mofan Battalion,Unit-77659:China-India Border; and the Milin 4th Independent Battalion (Nanyi Township, Linzhi City, Milin County):China-India Border.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby zoverian » 29 Jan 2017 11:28

What the next India-China war might look like

http://www.hindustantimes.com/analysis/ ... 8T4UP.html

India’s military might was on view during its Republic Day parade on January 26. Much of the focus of its armed forces is on China even though they are more regularly engaged in dealing with Pakistan in Jammu and Kashmir. China looms large in the minds of India’s planners – owing to its large military budget, its modernisation plans and the aggressive posturing in the South China Sea – but there is not enough public discussion as to what a future India-China war might look like.

This gap has been impressively addressed in a paper by Iskander Rehman for the Naval War College Review titled ‘A Himalayan Challenge: India’s Conventional Deterrent and the Role of Special Operations Forces along the Sino-Indian Border’. Rehman, senior fellow at Pell Center for International Relations and Public Policy at Salve Regina University, draws on extensive source material and interviews with figures in Indian intelligence, military and special forces to capture how Indian and Chinese strategists think about a border war, the way they are organising their resources and the constraints they face. The paper essentially tries to assess if “India’s operational concepts are sufficiently tailored to…the evolving Chinese challenge”.

To begin with, Rehman outlines four factors that will shape India-China conflict. First, the territorial defence postures of both countries. India maintains its large body of troops relatively close to the border while China stations a limited number in its interior in Tibet. Second is the climate and the difficult terrain. “Areas along the Indian side are not amenable to mechanised warfare, except certain parts of Ladakh and Sikkim.” The high elevation of Tibet gives China some “commanding advantages” for surveillance, artillery operations and acclimatisation of troops to high altitudes. High altitude and extreme cold affect “almost every element of military equipment”; they complicate air campaigns and battle plans. Third, is the infrastructure disparity between the two sides. The People’s Liberation Army has rapid access to the Line of Actual Control (LAC) thanks to the terrain and highways and high-speed railway networks it has built whereas Indian troops “often have to trek several hours, if not days, to attain certain areas.” Fourth, there are very different command structures on both sides – India has several regional army and air force commands, China has one unified western theatre command.

Planners on both sides believe that the next India-China conflict will be “limited in scope and short in duration, rather than a protracted, large-scale, force-on-force campaign”, because of the nuclear overhang and the prospect of a third party intervention if it prolongs. This has a bearing on the kind of war they prepare for. Chinese writings since the 1990s have emphasised “transtheater mobility”, rapid massing of strength, “gaining initiative from striking first” and “fighting a quick battle to force a quick solution”.
In the event of a conflict with India, conventional forces will be rushed in from the interior and these will be accompanied by air, electronic and cyber operations. The PLA’s air force (PLAAF) and artillery will conduct “standoff strikes” to disrupt and delay the arrival of Indian forces coming from the lowlands.” PLA’s Special Operations Forces (SOFs) will be deployed to attack vital targets “to create favourable conditions for main force units.” Rehman writes that India has been following “with a certain degree of trepidation”, the rapid development of China’s airborne assault capabilities via the PLAAF’s 15th Airborne Corps, numbering over 35,000 troops and headquartered at Xiaogan, from where it is expected “to reach any part of China within ten hours.”

Responding to this, India is building on its advantage in conventional troops numbers augmenting its force structure with new battalions of scouts, adding air, missile and surveillance assets, raising a new Mountain Strike Corps and improving its road and rail infrastructure in the border regions. Beyond these material indicators Rehman argues that the most significant change “has occurred in the intellectual domain as Indian defence planners have adopted much more vigorous, tactically offensive approach to territorial defence.” Raising a Strike Corps was a way of moving away from deterrence by denial to deterrence by punishment; to a form of “offensive defence”, a “cross-border riposte strategy”. As an army colonel told Rehman “once the Chinese seize a position, it may be very difficult to dislodge them. Rather than expend much blood and treasure attempting to storm impregnable positions, we should pursue a strategy of horizontal escalation and capture territory elsewhere.” In line with this, Ladakh and northern Sikkim are good locations for a mechanised riposte where India’s forces would “sweep down from…mountain plains to conduct pincer movements behind Chinese formations, with the hope of breaking troop concentration.” India’s air and missile power would aid these mechanised incursions into Tibet, as part of a wider theatre strategy.

Rehman argues, however, that notwithstanding this India’s approach to conventional deterrence has certain limitations. “While Indian planners have moved toward adopting a more-offensive form of area denial, they continue to rely, for the most part, on conventional forces that could be overcome or circumvented in the event of a fast-moving, localised, and limited border confrontation launched from higher elevations.” This leads to several problems. India is reliant on dispersed, poorly equipped paramilitary forces like the Indo-Tibetan Border Police (ITBP) as “its first line of defence in many of the forward areas most vulnerable to Chinese aggression.” The nature of the topography is such that conventional troops, which are substantially stationed in lower altitudes, are “relatively static” – moving them from lowlands is challenging, and while they wind up mountain roads and valleys during conflict they are vulnerable to artillery, missile or air strikes.

These weaknesses can be addressed, in Rehman’s view, by a greater complementarity between conventional forces and Special Operations Forces that can “play a critical role behind enemy lines, conducting sabotage, reconnaissance, and direct-action operations.” SOF’s can be used to strike airbases, reconnaissance assets and disrupt build-up of PLA forces. SOFs are also useful to counter “gray zone aggression” described by Michael Mazarr as “sequences of gradual steps to secure strategic leverage”, which would include Pakistan’s covert action and China’s use of infrastructural development to cement territorial claims. In view of their utility, Rehman’s surveys in some detail India’s SOFs, their composition, mandates, operational challenges and deficiencies, which will no doubt be pored over by planners (and adversaries).
Some aspects of Rehman’s diagnosis need immediate attention though. Road and rail projects in border areas continue to be delayed. “As of May 2016, only twenty-one of sixty-one border road projects designated strategic had been completed.” Twenty eight strategic railway lines were sanctioned in 2010, “six years later none have been finalized.” Chronic shortfalls in essential equipment continue, including parachutes, night vision devices, high-altitude clothing and even aluminium, belt-attachable water bottles. SOFs have expanded too rapidly “in size and in ad hoc manner, without the benefit of careful, deliberate planning” – and in numerous cases battalions have had to operate with inferior equipment sourced from infantry. There is not enough training capacity to cope with expanded forces. Attrition levels are high; most special forces units have an officer shortfall of 25-30%.

“Perhaps the greatest set of challenges lies in the organizational domain”, writes Rehman. Like other analysts, he calls for restructuring around a Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC) to harmonise the large number of SOFs, address inter-service rivalry and bring about greater strategic and doctrinal clarity.

Rehman’s paper is a remarkable piece of scholarship that serves India’s defence establishment well. One cannot help but wonder reading it why such an important work on India-China conflict happens to be the product of a western institution rather than an Indian one. There are certainly some outstanding international relations scholars in India, who happen to be productive in spite of the prohibitive climate they operate in. It is worth considering the conditions needed for producing valuable academic work. A paper like Rehman’s has a gestation period (requiring institutional support for scholars to pursue time-taking endeavours), it needs financial support, to create congenial conditions for research and to travel for fieldwork and interviews, and it needs access to establishment figures. Indian scholars based in India can rarely count on these; they are more likely to be underpaid and undervalued by the establishment.

Most importantly, a paper like this needs a strategic and intellectual ecosystem that values critical voices and contrarian thinking. Politicians must know that such rigorous scrutiny serves the public good – and that fine academic work is a product of the habits of thought that are nurtured in institutions, principally universities. If universities are instead turned into receptacles of conformity then India will not have the expertise that great powers need. It will also not establish institutions that will have the credibility and influence to define the debate abroad. Right now a paper originating in a western institution is initiating a conversation on India-China conflict. There is, by contrast, no piece of Indian work on American democracy that shapes the debate in the US on the age of Trump.

The author tweets as @SushilAaron

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 29 Jan 2017 12:06

^^This article was posted elsewhere - maybe not BRF - could have been IDRW. Another article full of generalities that are all available in open source publications and few specifics. A few questionable statements as well For example the author says:

India maintains its large body of troops relatively close to the border while China stations a limited number in its interior in Tibet.

He also says:
The high elevation of Tibet gives China some “commanding advantages” for surveillance, artillery operations and acclimatisation of troops to high altitudes.

This is a contradiction in terms. If you keep very few troops at high altitudes you cannot acclimatize a large number of them rapidly, and rapid induction from the lowlands will only bring in unacclimatized troops

The author also does not seem to get the picture when he has actually managed to state the facts

Facts that he states:
    1. “Areas along the Indian side are not amenable to mechanised warfare, except certain parts of Ladakh and Sikkim.”
    2. Ladakh and northern Sikkim are good locations for a mechanised riposte where India’s forces would “sweep down from…mountain plains to conduct pincer movements behind Chinese formations

In fact that is exactly where mechanized forces will be useful. The author does not seem to see that Indian troops are maintained in large numbers at high altitude - which itself gives a "commanding advantage" (to use his words) in having a body of acclimatized troops for conflict

All this is not to deny that he Chinese can do a lot. But the idea of looking at the terrain and available Chinese weapons and manpower in detail was to model what they can do and where they can do it. That is where the detail comes . If the Himalayas are unsuitable in general for mechanized warfare - they are equally unsuitable for Chinese tanks. So what are the Chinese doing with armoured divisions in Tibet?

Will post more detail in due course..

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 29 Jan 2017 12:14

shiv wrote:About the actual forces stationed in Tibet Note one "Chemical Warfare battalion" :D
  • Units Directly under Tibet Military District:
  • 15th Engineer Brigade (Dazi, Lhasa); Unit-77619,
    308 Artillery Regiment, Lhasa; Unit-77611,
  • 65th Air Defense Division, Lhasa; Unit-77616,
  • 16th Vehicle Regiment,
  • Lhasa; Communications Battalion,
  • Lhasa; Special Operations Division, Lhasa; Unit-77606,Lhasa。
  • 52nd Mountain Division(Bayi village, Linzhi County), Unit-77675;
  • Artillery Regiment (Nixi, Bayi village, Linzhi County) Unit-77678; 1st Battalion (Bujiu village, Linzhi County); 2nd Battalion (Yongjiu village, Linzhi County); 3rd Battalion (Yongjiu village, Linzhi County); 4th Battalion (Bujiu village, Linzhi County).
  • 53rd Mountain Brigade(Linzhi City, Milin County),Unit-77680;
  • Artillery Regiment (Jiage village, Linzhi City, Milin County) Unit-77683; First Battalion (Wolong village, Linzhi City, Milin County ); Second Battalion,(Gangga village, Linzhi County); 3rd Battalion ( Linzhi County),4th Battalion,(Wolong village, Linzhi City, Milin County).
  • 54th Armoured Brigade (High Plateau Cavalry- Due to the outstanding contribution to the completion of major tasks on January 13 2010 the CMC Chairman Hu Jintao signed a circular note of merit)( Lhasa City, Duilongdeqing County), Unit-77625;
  • an Artillery Regiment;
  • a mechanized infantry First Battalion; mechanized infantry 2nd Battalion; a mechanized infantry 3rd battalion;
  • Tank Battalion;
  • Chemical Warfare Battalion.
  • Border Defense Regiment of the Military Sub-District under Tibet Military District(also the Independent Battalions):
  • 1st Border Defense Regiment (Shannan City, Longzi County) Unit-77629: China-India and China-Bhutan Border.
  • 2nd Border Defense Regiment (Shannan City, Cuona County) Unit-77635: China-India, China-Bhutan Border.
  • Luoza County 5th Independent Battalion (Shannan City, Luoza County):China-Bhutan Border.
  • 3rd Border Defense Regiment (Shigatse City, Tingri County) Unit-77639: China-India and China Nepal Border.
  • 5th Border Defense Regiment (Shigatse City, Saga County) Unit 77646:China -Nepal Border.
  • 6th Border Defense Regiment (Shigatse City, Yadong County) Unit-77649:China-India and China Bhutan Border. (Nathula outpost is the 1st outpost of South West, Zhangniangshe Outpost of the 6th Border Defense Regiment is the Yunzhong outpost).
  • Gyantse 1st Independent Battalion (Shigatse City , Gyantse County) Unit -77655:China-India and China-Bhutan Border.
  • Gangba 2nd Independent Battalion (Shigatse City, Gangba County) Unit-77656:China-India Border. (Chaguola Outpost is the High Plateau Red Border Defense Troops).
  • 4th Border Defense Regiment (Chayu, Linzhi), Unit-77643:China-India Border.
  • Medog County 3rd Independent Battalion (Beibeng village, Linzhi City, Medog County); Medog Garrison , Mofan Battalion,Unit-77659:China-India Border; and the Milin 4th Independent Battalion (Nanyi Township, Linzhi City, Milin County):China-India Border.


Note the emphasis on artillery, armour and mobility. Chinese artillery includes missile/rocket forces. Some of these are are heavier than Pinaka and than 3 times the range. Some of the Chinese rocket forces have range up to 180 km and each unit has 100-200 such rockets with 250 kg warheads.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby DrRatnadip » 29 Jan 2017 16:36

Thanks a lot shiv sir..your tremendous efforts have cleared many misconceptions i had regarding indo china border...feeling very proud to join BRF..

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby kit » 29 Jan 2017 16:54

shiv wrote:^^This article was posted elsewhere - maybe not BRF - could have been IDRW. Another article full of generalities that are all available in open source publications and few specifics. A few questionable statements as well For example the author says:

India maintains its large body of troops relatively close to the border while China stations a limited number in its interior in Tibet.

He also says:
The high elevation of Tibet gives China some “commanding advantages” for surveillance, artillery operations and acclimatisation of troops to high altitudes.

This is a contradiction in terms. If you keep very few troops at high altitudes you cannot acclimatize a large number of them rapidly, and rapid induction from the lowlands will only bring in unacclimatized troops

The author also does not seem to get the picture when he has actually managed to state the facts

Facts that he states:
    1. “Areas along the Indian side are not amenable to mechanised warfare, except certain parts of Ladakh and Sikkim.”
    2. Ladakh and northern Sikkim are good locations for a mechanised riposte where India’s forces would “sweep down from…mountain plains to conduct pincer movements behind Chinese formations

In fact that is exactly where mechanized forces will be useful. The author does not seem to see that Indian troops are maintained in large numbers at high altitude - which itself gives a "commanding advantage" (to use his words) in having a body of acclimatized troops for conflict

All this is not to deny that he Chinese can do a lot. But the idea of looking at the terrain and available Chinese weapons and manpower in detail was to model what they can do and where they can do it. That is where the detail comes . If the Himalayas are unsuitable in general for mechanized warfare - they are equally unsuitable for Chinese tanks. So what are the Chinese doing with armoured divisions in Tibet?
Will post more detail in due course..



To prevent the Indian Army from going beyond ..the second line of defense

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 29 Jan 2017 17:09

kit wrote:To prevent the Indian Army from going beyond ..the second line of defense

Precisely - and this is what it seemed like to me. Their road infrastructure in Tibet will allow rapid lateral movement and deployment of armour where needed inside Tibet.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Deans » 29 Jan 2017 17:53

shiv wrote:Note the emphasis on artillery, armour and mobility. Chinese artillery includes missile/rocket forces. Some of these are are heavier than Pinaka and than 3 times the range. Some of the Chinese rocket forces have range up to 180 km and each unit has 100-200 such rockets with 250 kg warheads.


Shiv, There may be some double counting in this list. The 53rd mountain brigade and the Artillery regiment could be part of the parent 52rd
Mountain division (similar locations). All IA divisions have and artillery regiment too - apart from the independent artillery brigades attached
to each Indian corps. Similarly, the tank battalion, mechanised Infantry battalion and the artillery regiment, could be part of the parent armored 54th brigade.

I would expect the 2nd line forces to be mobile, given the space they are required to cover.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby rohitvats » 29 Jan 2017 18:00

^^^ Please remember that in case of PLA, Regiment is more likely to mean a formation equivalent to a brigade in Indian Army. I would've said that it means only brigade but Chinese have also started using brigade nomenclature in some cases.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby ShauryaT » 29 Jan 2017 18:37

shiv wrote:^^This article was posted elsewhere - maybe not BRF - could have been IDRW. Another article full of generalities that are all available in open source publications and few specifics. A few questionable statements as well For example the author says:

India maintains its large body of troops relatively close to the border while China stations a limited number in its interior in Tibet.

He also says:
The high elevation of Tibet gives China some “commanding advantages” for surveillance, artillery operations and acclimatisation of troops to high altitudes.

This is a contradiction in terms. If you keep very few troops at high altitudes you cannot acclimatize a large number of them rapidly, and rapid induction from the lowlands will only bring in unacclimatized troops
Shiv ji: The acclimatization of some troops can be done a 1000 miles away in "TAR" from the LAC. The Rehman paper was posted on this thread and refers to some lateral thinking on the lines of special forces action to disrupt the buildup from forces in the plains that both sides depend upon. IMO: Depending upon the high altitude barriers too much would be a mistake. Technology, training, logistics and some bold action supplemented by capabilities in fire power and mobility can overcome these. China indeed has some advantages but so does India. The paper, if you read it goes into both sides of the picture, but as I indicated earlier dwells more into the issues the Indian side would face, presumably due to the author's links and sympathies. The paper is by and large focused on special operations forces and the opportunity for their role on both sides.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 29 Jan 2017 19:02

ShauryaT wrote: The acclimatization of some troops can be done a 1000 miles away in "TAR" from the LAC.

The question is where? Since villages with populations of a few dozen people and individual small army camps can be seen clearly on Google Earth where are these troops? Open source literature places them in Lhasa and Nyingchi. Both well known areas that can be surveiled. Nyingchi is very close to the Arunachal Pradesh border. Where else? Any army detachments will have visible roads leading up to it and visible logistics lines. Searching 1000 miles away - I see no such area. I am still searching - but it makes sense to me to come down from generalities to specifics. Maybe it was not the purpose of the paper to do that but it is my purpose to do that

ShauryaT wrote:The Rehman paper was posted on this thread and refers to some lateral thinking on the lines of special forces action to disrupt the buildup from forces in the plains that both sides depend upon. IMO: Depending upon the high altitude barriers too much would be a mistake. Technology, training, logistics and some bold action supplemented by capabilities in fire power and mobility can overcome these. China indeed has some advantages but so does India. The paper, if you read it goes into both sides of the picture, but as I indicated earlier dwells more into the issues the Indian side would face, presumably due to the author's links and sympathies. The paper is by and large focused on special operations forces and the opportunity for their role on both sides.

This is a different question. Technically the same story that started this thread could be applied to any Arunachal airfield. Imagine a paradrop of Chinese forces to control the airfield which is less than 100 km from the border. After the airfield is controlled - Chinese aircraft and helicopters get a base within India for further operations. This is a good pant wetting scenario. On the other hand - Nyingchi airport if 15 km from the border. What could Indian forces do to grab that airfield while cutting off logistics that come via the river valley?

None of these scenarios can be made realistic without a detailed look at the local topography and where forces can collect - and that is what I am trying to do. Aksai Chin was easy. This is a huge job that will take months. But at the end of it I am hoping to have a lot of facts at my fingertips.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Philip » 29 Jan 2017 20:36

Rehman's article echoes what I mentioned elsewhere that we need to have sev. spl force units which can operate within Tibet and harry/strike at key Chinese positions,airfields,command centres just as the Mukti Bahini did in '71,aiding the IA's juggernaut. For this we need to induct large numbers of the Tibetan diaspora.mixed with our units who specialise in high-alt warfare,and provide them with the required support/logistic needs,helos,aircraft,etc.required for such airborne insertion/assault. We will also have to beef up our std. firepower,arty,rocket/missile forces,at least equal to what China possesses in Tibet.The total destruction of the Chinese air capability in Tibet ,and its road/rail links to mainland China,must be the primary goal ,as given the huge distance from the rest of China will prevent any rapid resupply of troops and material to Tibet. In fact,the Chinese forces ,some of them,could be cut off and trapped in Tibet if we are daring enough.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Paul » 30 Jan 2017 00:22

An airfield even if under control of special forces in AP or Ladakh will need ground based supply routes or will be difficult to sustain their control. Recall the 1965 pathankot episode or Market Garden. Surprise will be key factor.

Unless the operation is followed up with concerted action ground troops , it will be difficult for PLA to keep control.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 30 Jan 2017 07:31

With China having based large artillery/rocket forces in Tibet I started looking for more information. One of the most informative articles I found almost immediately is linked below. Unfortunately it leaves out Tibet entirely but I post it because it has a link to a Google earth placemark map of every single missile site discovered in China using Google earth. Some interesting details there
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-PLA-Seco ... Corps.html

Link to Google Earth Placemarks
http://www.ausairpower.net/Google-Earth ... yCorps.kmz

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 30 Jan 2017 07:41

China has some interesting multiple barrel launch rockets - as much as 300 or 400 mm and ranges of over 200 km
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_eq ... _artillery

One can expect these to rain down in hot war. That is why I asked if Akash has anti MBRL capability. China actually practices the destrcution of airfirleds using such weapons as shown by the Ausairpower link I posted earlier

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby ShauryaT » 30 Jan 2017 08:07

shiv wrote:With China having based large artillery/rocket forces in Tibet I started looking for more information. One of the most informative articles I found almost immediately is linked below. Unfortunately it leaves out Tibet entirely but I post it because it has a link to a Google earth placemark map of every single missile site discovered in China using Google earth. Some interesting details there
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-PLA-Seco ... Corps.html

Link to Google Earth Placemarks
http://www.ausairpower.net/Google-Earth ... yCorps.kmz
The same site has every airbase also mapped to GE.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 30 Jan 2017 08:22

ShauryaT wrote:http://www.ausairpower.net/Google-Earth ... yCorps.kmz The same site has every airbase also mapped to GE.

I had actually contributed to that many years ago - but the community has thousands of enthusiasts. However the number of Indians working on China seems to be small.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby UlanBatori » 30 Jan 2017 08:41

This is very interesting. I wonder what might be the effect, if a few notations were to appear such as "Site where General Wi Dong's wife was observed :eek: :eek: Colonel Fu Chen."

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 30 Jan 2017 09:15

UlanBatori wrote:This is very interesting. I wonder what might be the effect, if a few notations were to appear such as "Site where General Wi Dong's wife was observed :eek: :eek: Colonel Fu Chen."

This is necessary - as are images of North Arunachal and UttarSikkim. But no one doing it. Yet

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby UlanBatori » 30 Jan 2017 19:44

Might get banned by Goo-Gal if done without the elegance and finesse for which we are known.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 30 Jan 2017 19:50

UlanBatori wrote:Might get banned by Goo-Gal if done without the elegance and finesse for which we are known.

Well I sense an opportunity here :D Unfortunately it will take dedicated work from a bunch of like minded trolls tourists

It turns out that all images on Kookal were on a site called Panoramio which is now shutting down and Kookal is asking people to download and save their own images. Images can now be put on Kookals own server. So a lot of old images (I am hoping) will simply vanish allowing North Arunachal residents like me and Yak herders to upload images of warld phamous sites of those areas.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby UlanBatori » 30 Jan 2017 19:56

I do have a few of those as u know, but not the knowhow to upload etc. Good ppl from China/Mongolia have assiduously posted their vacation pics generously, but with sadly wrong nomenclature. Needs correction. Basically need to find out how to assign Lat/Long to image and upload, along with caption.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Prasad » 30 Jan 2017 22:45

Exif information contains location details. Can update that and some kind photo feature will automatically geotag it perhaps.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 30 Jan 2017 22:59

UlanBatori wrote:I do have a few of those as u know, but not the knowhow to upload etc. Good ppl from China/Mongolia have assiduously posted their vacation pics generously, but with sadly wrong nomenclature. Needs correction. Basically need to find out how to assign Lat/Long to image and upload, along with caption.

Easy. But I hope you have Google earth installed.

Click on the yellow "pin" icon (or go to "add" and select "placemark"

Move the pin to the North Arunachal spot you remember fondly on the map. Use the dialog box to label and then click on "add photo" and upload from your local computer. The image below shows how I will label and upload an image of Kottayam, North Arunachal
Image

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby UlanBatori » 30 Jan 2017 23:06

Prasad wrote:Exif information contains location details. Can update that and some kind photo feature will automatically geotag it perhaps.

The term "automatically" does not apply to true works of art. Did Michaelangelo say: "Automatically sweep the ***** brush across the ceiling", hain? Or Picasso say :"automatically spray and spill paint all over the canvas and call it "Mother and Child"? Oh wait, he did!

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Rakesh » 30 Jan 2017 23:50

Now who is dhoti shivering? :D

China to raise US arms sale to India with Trump administration
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... 867242.cms

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Prasad » 31 Jan 2017 00:34

UlanBatori wrote:
Prasad wrote:Exif information contains location details. Can update that and some kind photo feature will automatically geotag it perhaps.

The term "automatically" does not apply to true works of art. Did Michaelangelo say: "Automatically sweep the ***** brush across the ceiling", hain? Or Picasso say :"automatically spray and spill paint all over the canvas and call it "Mother and Child"? Oh wait, he did!

:mrgreen: First result from unkal googal was this http://www.geoimgr.com/en/tool to help assign geotags to picturse without having to painstakingly enter lat-long. And there are desktop programs that one can use too like this one http://www.geosetter.de/en/ to add Alapuzha, North Arunachal afterwards.

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby ranjan.rao » 31 Jan 2017 01:37

Rakesh wrote:Now who is dhoti shivering? :D

China to raise US arms sale to India with Trump administration
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... 867242.cms

And this is when not even a single weapon of offensive nature has been delivered till date....imagine their plight if and when 100s of teens arrive..

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Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby DrRatnadip » 31 Jan 2017 14:58

Problem that troubles my mind is not that weather chinis can land in delhi in 48 hours or for that matter in 48 days.i am pretty sure that our forces are more than capable of throwing them back and making them pay for any misadventure. I am more worried about premature ceasefire. In a repeat of 62 chinese may attempt to 'teach us a lesson' making some quick gains and offer a ceasefire. This will be a big dent on our H n D. I am not sure if our leaders will be able to show some balls to deny any such attempt of premature ceasefire and kick some chinese gluteal region. :evil:


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