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Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

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Indranil
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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby Indranil » 16 Feb 2017 02:54

Thank you.

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby Indranil » 16 Feb 2017 03:16

Some great pictures here.

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby Indranil » 16 Feb 2017 05:31

I havn't seen any pictures of a Mahindra stall. Absent?

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby Zynda » 16 Feb 2017 07:11

Bala saar, please try to ask the following to LCA/AMCA folks either at NAL or ADA stall.

1. Apart from ADA & NAL, are there any private SME involved in design of components/sub-assemblies for AMCA? If yes, try to get some names please. (please be cautious on how the 2nd part of the question is framed...no unnecessary paranoia needs to set in the mind of the official). Note: One can always say that he/she is an aerospace professional who is passionate about getting involved with product development activities, especially indigenous ones and is always on the lookout for possible avenues or opportunities. The above implies that if names of companies are given, I will check out their website or try to find a contact and check for suitable opportunities. Just a suggestion :)

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby shiv » 16 Feb 2017 07:24

suryag wrote:Gurus any new maneouvres from tejas ? Didn't find anything in that video above

Yesterday morning Tejas' display was the most tame and unexciting one. Watch the Bahrain video instead unless someone is lucky enough to catch a different didsplay

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby arshyam » 16 Feb 2017 07:26

Indranil wrote:I havn't seen any pictures of a Mahindra stall. Absent?

Mahindra was there, albeit in a low key avatar. The big missing one was TASL.

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby Prasad » 16 Feb 2017 07:45

They have a chalet. No stall afaik.

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby Bala Vignesh » 16 Feb 2017 08:32

arshyam wrote:
Indranil wrote:I havn't seen any pictures of a Mahindra stall. Absent?

Mahindra was there, albeit in a low key avatar. The big missing one was TASL.

And their recent winner the C295. I was really expecting the C295 to be present for the show..

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby suryag » 16 Feb 2017 09:16

shiv wrote:
suryag wrote:Gurus any new maneouvres from tejas ? Didn't find anything in that video above

Yesterday morning Tejas' display was the most tame and unexciting one. Watch the Bahrain video instead unless someone is lucky enough to catch a different didsplay


Shiv garu - during practice they were doing those vertical flights but during yesterday's session except for the negative G turn they didnt do much, hope you all catch something better than the bahrain and 2015 demo

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby arshyam » 16 Feb 2017 09:55

Bala Vignesh wrote:
arshyam wrote:Mahindra was there, albeit in a low key avatar. The big missing one was TASL.

And their recent winner the C295. I was really expecting the C295 to be present for the show..

We were discussing on the bus back home - has the C-295 contract work started?

I looked around and found only this Rajat Pandit article dated a year ago (Feb 2016):
Tata-Airbus project yet to take off from drawing board - ToI

"Even the preliminary field trials of the C-295 aircraft on offer are yet to begin almost a year after the Manohar Parrikar-led defence acquisitions council (DAC) finally approved the Tata-Airbus project after much delay," said a MoD source.

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby JayS » 16 Feb 2017 09:59

Heads up for those who have bought online biz pass and planning to take the entry passcard at the venue. Go to Domestic Parking area - Gate no 5. Its on opposite side of the road.

Do not go to the ADVA parking/entry side. I found it the hard way.

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby shiv » 16 Feb 2017 10:38

Components being made by 3D printing for use in HALs engines being developed
Image
Image
Image

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby Cybaru » 16 Feb 2017 10:40

The printed components can withstand all the heat and use etc or just for concept testing? Will they be used in regular engine once a working prototype is produced?

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby samsher » 16 Feb 2017 10:52

Indranil wrote:Some great pictures here.


^^ The linked website states, under the 'Trainer Wars' section, that (and I quote) "HAL will also be displaying it’s HTT 40 trainer which was rejected by the IAF recently."

is this accurate? couldnt find any info, in the public domain, about the IAF rejecting the HTT 40 or in the recent feature that the Tarmak folks did about the trainer.
https://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2017/02/ ... ut-we.html

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby shiv » 16 Feb 2017 12:07

samsher wrote:
Indranil wrote:Some great pictures here.


^^ The linked website states, under the 'Trainer Wars' section, that (and I quote) "HAL will also be displaying it’s HTT 40 trainer which was rejected by the IAF recently."

is this accurate? couldnt find any info, in the public domain, about the IAF rejecting the HTT 40 or in the recent feature that the Tarmak folks did about the trainer.
https://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2017/02/ ... ut-we.html
The IAF cannot reject what it never selected. The HTT 40 is a HAL product & the air force has no requirement for it

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby shiv » 16 Feb 2017 12:09

Cybaru wrote:The printed components can withstand all the heat and use etc or just for concept testing? Will they be used in regular engine once a working prototype is produced?

Apparently yes. 3D printing helps in quickly making design changes, but apparently may not make sense for mass manufacture

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby Philip » 16 Feb 2017 12:12

Titbits about AE in Biz Line:

Rafale wanting to sell their naval variant to the IN. 36 for the IAF aren't enough to set up any manufacturing unit here.

Sukhoi /IAF in discussions about a deep upgrade of the MKI with new (AESA) radar,more powerful new engines (probably the same new one which is to power the latest T-50 prototypes and SU-35s). HAL has built about 180 MKIs so far,at the rate of 12/yr. Sukhoi v.keen to offer its naval variants for the IN's future carrier fighter.Since IAC-2 will be much larger,it will be able to accommodate both a new-gen variant of the SU-33,or the FGFA.These will be far superior to the F-18/Rafales,able to carry upto 3 BMos-Ms.

HAL ready to ramp up LCA prod. to 16 a yr,from the current rate of 8,with xtra govt. funding (1000cr). Various helo types on order in large qty.(76 ALH) like the ALH,etc.,but it is waiting for substantial orders of the LCH 17,500 crores capex over 5-6 yrs,when it goes public (10%) next yr. Plans to sell 106 HTT-40 "when production begins" .Sleeping pill time what?

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby JayS » 16 Feb 2017 13:06

Cybaru wrote:The printed components can withstand all the heat and use etc or just for concept testing? Will they be used in regular engine once a working prototype is produced?


Yes they will be used on production engines. For small engines challenge is to make small size parts. 3D printing not only removes this obstacle but enables you to do one up by letting you use all the intricacies of bigger engine in smaller engines.

I am rather impressed by HAL's efforts on use of these 3D printed parts. This is the future. Get on the bus as soon as you can.

There was a seminar in last AI on HTFE25 where they covered 3D printed parts. Look for it.

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby Sidharth » 16 Feb 2017 13:43

Cybaru wrote:The printed components can withstand all the heat and use etc or just for concept testing? Will they be used in regular engine once a working prototype is produced?

Metallic 3D printed part has the characteristics of a forged part. Their strength (UTS and Yield ) are better than cast. The defect rates are also significantly lower. But the crystal directions may be a challenge if that is a requirement. But being amorphous as in 3d printed has its advantages and there fore from a crack propagation point, its is better as well.*
You can look at metal 3d printing as a very finely controlled casting, where the casting process is controlled layer by layer, during each pass.
But the technology and production control process are a challenge. Looks like HAL or their supplier has mastered it.

*PS: single crystal blades have advantage of creep resistance, but I see the blades in the picture above are 3d printed (amorphous). So is it for a lower temperature application. May be compressor blades ?


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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby Karan M » 16 Feb 2017 16:11

New DRDO Quadcopter tethered, to hoist radars

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C4thtnXUMAAdzWK.jpg:large

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby chetak » 16 Feb 2017 16:19

shiv wrote:
samsher wrote:
^^ The linked website states, under the 'Trainer Wars' section, that (and I quote) "HAL will also be displaying it’s HTT 40 trainer which was rejected by the IAF recently."

is this accurate? couldnt find any info, in the public domain, about the IAF rejecting the HTT 40 or in the recent feature that the Tarmak folks did about the trainer.
https://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2017/02/ ... ut-we.html
The IAF cannot reject what it never selected. The HTT 40 is a HAL product & the air force has no requirement for it


Never did understand this HAL strategy!!!

HTT40 is a new aircraft along with an equally new engine. Both unproven.

At least one of the two should have been a proven product.

Pathetic risk analysis as well as a business development methodology.

some senior military type looking for a possible senior position in HAL, post-retirement, may have misled them and sold them a pup.

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby vina » 16 Feb 2017 16:48

chetak wrote:
shiv wrote:The IAF cannot reject what it never selected. The HTT 40 is a HAL product & the air force has no requirement for it


Never did understand this HAL strategy!!!

HTT40 is a new aircraft along with an equally new engine. Both unproven.

At least one of the two should have been a proven product.

Pathetic risk analysis as well as a business development methodology.

some senior military type looking for a possible senior position in HAL, post-retirement, may have misled them and sold them a pup.

The Garrett is a pretty well proven old engine. It is used on the Shorts Tuscany. In fact the Dornier made by Hal uses this engine as well. We probably already make it at Hal and would leverage the Dornier support chain. In fact the perfect choice by the HTT 40 team all things considered.

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby shiv » 16 Feb 2017 17:08

Jaguar Maritime on tarmac with Harpoon practice round, dumb bomb and LGB. Note Litening
Image

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby shiv » 16 Feb 2017 17:37

Cybaru wrote:The printed components can withstand all the heat and use etc or just for concept testing? Will they be used in regular engine once a working prototype is produced?

Here is the information board - the blades have cooling holes presumably for hot parts
Image

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby shiv » 16 Feb 2017 17:47

LCA Navy 2
Image

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby Neela » 16 Feb 2017 18:21

shiv wrote:
Cybaru wrote:The printed components can withstand all the heat and use etc or just for concept testing? Will they be used in regular engine once a working prototype is produced?

Apparently yes. 3D printing helps in quickly making design changes, but apparently may not make sense for mass manufacture


I cannot undeestand why it is not suitable for mass manufacture.
Also, I am reminded about this segment I saw. If you see the Rolls Royce engine video on jootube, you can see pretty ladies preparing the moulds for the blades.
I found this bizarre. You have these high tech furnaces , blisk cutting machines etc etc all around but the moulds are made with a wax like substance by hand.

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby ramana » 16 Feb 2017 18:37

Sidharth wrote:
Cybaru wrote:The printed components can withstand all the heat and use etc or just for concept testing? Will they be used in regular engine once a working prototype is produced?

Metallic 3D printed part has the characteristics of a forged part. Their strength (UTS and Yield ) are better than cast. The defect rates are also significantly lower. But the crystal directions may be a challenge if that is a requirement. But being amorphous as in 3d printed has its advantages and there fore from a crack propagation point, its is better as well.*
You can look at metal 3d printing as a very finely controlled casting, where the casting process is controlled layer by layer, during each pass.
But the technology and production control process are a challenge. Looks like HAL or their supplier has mastered it.

*PS: single crystal blades have advantage of creep resistance, but I see the blades in the picture above are 3d printed (amorphous). So is it for a lower temperature application. May be compressor blades ?


Correct conclusion. 3D printed parts are for compressor section. Hot section still needs machining.
I have seen refs to TI 3D printed parts properties. Not any others.
Plastic sucks.

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby Dileep » 16 Feb 2017 19:00

The guy near uttam told that they are ready for flight, just waiting for the aircraft to be made available. Took a good look at the module. The antennas are etched on PCB, and the whole edge of the PCB is jutting out of the flat ground plane. That is a great design IMO. As someone mentioned earlier, the cooling system is self contained. They lugged in the actual radar unit to the show. Touch wood.. nothing happens to it.

Got an invite to Paris Air Show to put two of the FBL devices at the booth of a friendly company there. Also got a chance to put another FBL device in on the Rambha Upgrade (this of course based on the L1 criteria and against a lot of adverse interests). Lots of other things that can't be told here. In all, a very successful show for the KB.

Tomorrow will be spent to see the air show and all the stalls.

Someone with initials A S visited the stall while I was away. Was that a BRFite not sure. As it is, only met deejay and hakim saab from the jirga.

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby JayS » 16 Feb 2017 19:03

ramana wrote:
Sidharth wrote:Metallic 3D printed part has the characteristics of a forged part. Their strength (UTS and Yield ) are better than cast. The defect rates are also significantly lower. But the crystal directions may be a challenge if that is a requirement. But being amorphous as in 3d printed has its advantages and there fore from a crack propagation point, its is better as well.*
You can look at metal 3d printing as a very finely controlled casting, where the casting process is controlled layer by layer, during each pass.
But the technology and production control process are a challenge. Looks like HAL or their supplier has mastered it.

*PS: single crystal blades have advantage of creep resistance, but I see the blades in the picture above are 3d printed (amorphous). So is it for a lower temperature application. May be compressor blades ?


Correct conclusion. 3D printed parts are for compressor section. Hot section still needs machining.
I have seen refs to TI 3D printed parts properties. Not any others.
Plastic sucks.


Saar, they are printing Combustor parts and 1st nozzle row for HPT.

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby JayS » 16 Feb 2017 19:06

shiv wrote:OK I will fix it as Friday 17th Feb.

My place will be available a get together on Friday 17 Feb 2017 from 6 PM to 10-30 PM.

People who want to come must email me on bennedose a t h o t mail d o t c om for directions and a phone number. Please identify yourself with a BRF handle.

Note: Please make the subject line "Jirga Aero India 2017 ". I will set up an email filter and the email will be missed if that subject line is not there

I will respond with directions and a phone number. I prefer calls to SMSes - SMSes don't work well with me


Shiv I sent you email regarding this 2days ago. Awaiting reply. Have you received it.??

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby shiv » 16 Feb 2017 19:09

JayS wrote:
shiv wrote:OK I will fix it as Friday 17th Feb.

My place will be available a get together on Friday 17 Feb 2017 from 6 PM to 10-30 PM.

People who want to come must email me on bennedose a t h o t mail d o t c om for directions and a phone number. Please identify yourself with a BRF handle.

Note: Please make the subject line "Jirga Aero India 2017 ". I will set up an email filter and the email will be missed if that subject line is not there

I will respond with directions and a phone number. I prefer calls to SMSes - SMSes don't work well with me


Shiv I sent you email regarding this 2days ago. Awaiting reply. Have you received it.??
will check again in next 30 min pls resend just in case

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby JayS » 16 Feb 2017 19:17

Neela wrote:
shiv wrote:Apparently yes. 3D printing helps in quickly making design changes, but apparently may not make sense for mass manufacture


I cannot undeestand why it is not suitable for mass manufacture.
Also, I am reminded about this segment I saw. If you see the Rolls Royce engine video on jootube, you can see pretty ladies preparing the moulds for the blades.
I found this bizarre. You have these high tech furnaces , blisk cutting machines etc etc all around but the moulds are made with a wax like substance by hand.


Investment casting. They are not made by hand per se. They are made using die. People are needed to do some work which needs hand-skills or its too difficult to make it using die entirely - like joining the wax models to make batch etc. And for inspection.

Wax because its suppose to evaporate leaving cavity of exact shape in the ceramic mould.

3D can be used for mass manufacturing. There are many parts in Aerospace industry where buy-to-fly ration is in tens or even hundreds in some cases. There removing 90% of material from a big chunk of material can be costlier and slower than build that 10% material using 3D technology.

As an example from the F35 competition documentary - LM was making one key bulkhead as one piece Ti part. It would take them months to etch out that part from raw Ti block. One mistake and that entire thing would be scrapped. These are some of the places where 3D printing makes a very strong business case.

Two key issues in proliferation of 3D tech - confidence on material properties used for design and quality assurance/consistency/repetability in making same part with minimum required material properties. No one wants to check each and every part in details. There might be more, but I know of these two.

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby JayS » 16 Feb 2017 19:21

shiv wrote:
JayS wrote:
Shiv I sent you email regarding this 2days ago. Awaiting reply. Have you received it.??
will check again in next 30 min pls resend just in case


Resent.

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby arshyam » 16 Feb 2017 19:47

shiv wrote:
JayS wrote:
Shiv I sent you email regarding this 2days ago. Awaiting reply. Have you received it.??
will check again in next 30 min pls resend just in case

Sir, me too - had sent an email yesterday. I have re-sent the message.

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby arshyam » 16 Feb 2017 19:53

^^ Never mind, got your message :). Looking forward to the meet.

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby Prasad » 16 Feb 2017 20:00

Dileep ji
Happened by your stall. Met a Mr V. Asked a couple of rubbish questions and then headed out.

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby arshyam » 16 Feb 2017 20:04

Dileep wrote:As it is, only met deejay and hakim saab from the jirga.

I wanted to stop by and say hello, but didn't want to ask for your stall details in the open forum...

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby Prasad » 16 Feb 2017 21:37

Somebody asked about airframe composite usage. What I heard was that its too early to say just how much of an increase there will be. There is already a high % of composites area-wise in the LCA.



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