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Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

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Karan M
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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby Karan M » 16 Feb 2017 21:52

awesome news. ekm class will now hsve local torpedos. steady progress. now for our own towed array sonars.

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby Zynda » 16 Feb 2017 22:42

Just a few notes about AI display. ADVA area is definitely better for viewing compared to business visitor's section. Even in ADVA, one needs to find the sweet spot. I realized that sweet spot is towards the end of the runway where planes halt before they line up for take off. Double tall fences in ADVA actually hamper photography (I guess one can argue that there is no need to stand that close to fence). Many a times my camera was focusing on the fence wires than on the plane. Ideal procedure would be to arrive early...grab yourself a chair and when the airshow starts, stand on the chair. Place the chair about a few meters behind the fences so that when on chair, LOS clears the fence top line.

LCA was insipid. The expansion of flight envelope was obvious for folks who have a trained eye, but it was not thrilling. I would say that folks at Bahrain were more fortunate. It is obvious that new SKAT is still evolving. Even though the Hawks are faster compared to Kiran, the previous team's routines were more fluid i.e. a sense of continuity was there between different manoeuvres. This time the SKAT would disappear for around 20-30 seconds and appear out of no where. Also the smoke was missing.

Helicopters actually did a pretty good job. I did not stay for Sarang's show but the rest of them did were not bad.

F-16 demo was as usual about ripping, fast climbs, knife-edge pass and some tight turns. Gripen was about more tighter turns rather than sheer speed. Both performances were good. Rafale did not perform.A Rafale took-off on a customer flight (could have been Anil Ambani per press reports) and arrived half an hour later.

Lastly, I don't have moolah but a 300mm or better 400mm zoom lens is absolutely required.

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby arvin » 16 Feb 2017 22:47

Spoke to a gent in GTRE stall. only said what was publicly available. hopeful of integrating it to LCA by 2019. Also asked about getting a flying testbed. Said no plans as yet but might get in future.
Saw a model of dunking sonar in one of DRDO stall. With ALTAS towed array on order, I think we are almost there sonar wise.
Poeir jets a private Indian company had a impressive range of micro jet engines for uav market. Engines weigh in the range of 3.6 kg to 18 kg. TET specified was 1150 K ( 876 c). (Kaveris TET is 1214 c as per wiki). It looks like private sector does have the tools to get close to GTREs capabilities.
Dileep sir pls check mail.

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby JTull » 16 Feb 2017 23:12

3D printing can also be used for those wax or plastic dies.

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby Indranil » 16 Feb 2017 23:14

Would somebody try to prod the HAL gents for some more info on the IJT.

I wish next AI we have a flying IMRH and LCA MK1A and cleared IJT, HTT-40, LUH and Saras.

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby Karan M » 16 Feb 2017 23:32

Zynda - planning to visit any of the exhibit areas? If so, do see the RCI, DRDO and radar stalls..

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby Zynda » 16 Feb 2017 23:35

^^ No sir. Chose ADVA cause Business visitor amount is a little high for me this time.

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby Karan M » 16 Feb 2017 23:39

well, don't blame me for askin' ;-)

i was always one of the dumbos who'd miss the air display because he spent more time in the stalls.

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby nash » 17 Feb 2017 01:10



It says:

NIRBHAY CRUISE MISSILE CONTROVERSIES: Nirbhay cruise missile you will appreciate is a new area of work for us. Subsonic cruise missiles travel beyond 2000 km and they fly very low. However, to achieve that, there are many technological challenges. A subsonic long-range system is a stressful project. For this missile, we have had one successful and three unsuccessful flights. The unsuccessful flights were terminated by us. It isn’t as if they strayed and caused damage. Our defect investigation committee is looking into it. After incorporating improvements, by May-June this year, we are planning the next flight. In the long run, we want a family of subsonic cruise missiles.


typo or .... :shock:

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby Bheeshma » 17 Feb 2017 02:44

Maybe mentioning generic specs but you never know.

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby srai » 17 Feb 2017 04:28


shiv
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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby shiv » 17 Feb 2017 06:35

Zynda wrote:Just a few notes about AI display. ADVA area is definitely better for viewing compared to business visitor's section. Even in ADVA, one needs to find the sweet spot. I realized that sweet spot is towards the end of the runway where planes halt before they line up for take off. .


Agree 100%

If one is interested in photo/video a standing spot at the fence is best, There are some displays done mainly for VIP and ADVA and these include rapelling and underslung army helo loads. These are nearly invisible from Business area.

In earlier years I used to go one day to Business area and a second day to ADVA

Unless you are really into the technical side of stuff the business area is more expensive and more boring and always is an endurance test. This year I was on my feet for 7 hours without sitting down and walked 6-8 km in total. But the business area this year was far far better arranged. There were places to sit for the public and people in stalls also offered us seats, though I was scared to sit thinking that if I sat I would not be able to get up. But that is how I felt 1 day later :shock:

This year I spent 3 hours videoing displays and looking at the statics outside and 4 hours in 5 large halls. Not enough time for the halls

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby shiv » 17 Feb 2017 07:11

Spent some time at the Kaveri stall. On the negative side they had a full size Kaveri engine on display with no info board but 2-3 leaves of the afterburner nozzles were missing making an ugly picture. There was actually a nice looking transparent model with rotors turning and lit up and all. They could have saved space by not placing that khatada fullsize engine there - with no label but anyone going close might have seen a couple of small gizmos attached to the engine clearly labelled snecma .

However the young gent there said that Kaveri is ready for a flight on the LCA. I asked if it had not been ready 2-3 years ago after the high altitude tests. He replied that there were some issued back then which had been resolved. He said that there was now a Kaveri engine that had been running continuously for over 2000 hours. I was unable to go into further details about this.

Anyhow I hope to see this thing fly in something more than LCA - hopefully a UAV or UCAV.

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby arshyam » 17 Feb 2017 07:31

There was this Bell 429 heli hiding in between two other aircraft. Any idea what it was doing there?

Image

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby arshyam » 17 Feb 2017 07:33

The CAS inspecting the proposed IMRH:

Image

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby arshyam » 17 Feb 2017 07:34

Sarang, impressive as always:

Image

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby arshyam » 17 Feb 2017 07:46

Some more updates elsewhere:
Rustom II is now called Tapas: viewtopic.php?p=2117012#p2117012
DRDO's TAMP: viewtopic.php?p=2117018#p2117018
The aerodynamic finish of the LCA's refueling probe: viewtopic.php?p=2117020#p2117020
What's this soap like thing on the LCA's nose? viewtopic.php?p=2117021#p2117021

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby deejay » 17 Feb 2017 08:03

arshyam wrote:There was this Bell 429 heli hiding in between two other aircraft. Any idea what it was doing there?



It is there for the NLUH bid. Tata's and Textron together on this (wow!alliteration!). Lot's of meeting with Naval Team, Ratan Tata, Tata's and Bell-Textron folks. Though, I don't think they are very positive about 429.

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby Cybaru » 17 Feb 2017 10:10

shiv wrote:Spent some time at the Kaveri stall. On the negative side they had a full size Kaveri engine on display with no info board but 2-3 leaves of the afterburner nozzles were missing making an ugly picture.
with no label but anyone going close might have seen a couple of small gizmos attached to the engine clearly labelled snecma .


Is this K10? Any chance he mentioned what the specs were? A/B? Any pics?
Thanks for sharing.

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby Cybaru » 17 Feb 2017 10:29

Okay found this on 3d printing engine parts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0SXlkrmzyw

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby Paul » 17 Feb 2017 10:48

Rate of climb
****************
Rate of climb (RoC) is an aircraft's vertical speed – the rate of positive altitude change with respect to time or distance. It is commonly expressed in metre per second (m/s). The rate of climb in an aircraft is indicated with a vertical speed indicator (VSI) or instantaneous vertical speed indicator (IVSI). The climb performance of an airplane is affected by certain variables. The conditions of the airplane's maximum climb angle or maximum climb rate occur at specific speeds, and variations in speed will produce variations in climb performance. The rate of climb also depends on engine power available which decreases with altitude and on power required, which is also a function of altitude. Therefore, rate-of-climb is greatly influenced by altitude. It decreases from a maximum value at sea level to zero at some value of altitude termed the ceiling.

Increasing the power by advancing the throttle produces a marked difference in the rate of climb. Climb depends upon the reserve power or thrust. Reserve power is the available power over and above that required to maintain horizontal flight at a given speed.
Weight has a very pronounced effect on aircraft performance. If weight is added to the aircraft, it must fly at a higher angle of attack to maintain a given altitude and speed. This increases the induced drag of the wings, as well as the parasite drag of the airplane. Increased drag means that additional power is needed to overcome it, which in turn means that less reserve power is available for climbing. A change in the aircraft's weight produces a twofold effect on climb performance. First, the weight affects both the climb angle and the climb rate. In addition, a change in weight will change the drag and the power required. This alters the reserve power available. Generally, an increase in weight will reduce the maximum rate of climb but the airplane must be operated at some increase of climb speed to achieve the smaller peak climb rate.

An increase in altitude also will increase the power required and decrease the power available. Hence, the climb performance of an airplane is affected greatly by altitude. The speeds for maximum rate of climb, maximum angle of climb, and maximum and minimum level flight airspeeds vary with altitude. As altitude is increased, these various speeds finally converge at the absolute ceiling of the airplane. At the absolute ceiling, there is no excess of power and only one speed will allow steady level flight. Consequently, the absolute ceiling of the airplane produces zero rate of climb. The service ceiling is the altitude at which the airplane is unable to climb at a rate greater than 100 feet per minute. Usually, these specific performance reference points are provided for the airplane at a specific design configuration.

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby Prasad » 17 Feb 2017 11:01

Indranil wrote:Would somebody try to prod the HAL gents for some more info on the IJT.

I wish next AI we have a flying IMRH and LCA MK1A and cleared IJT, HTT-40, LUH and Saras.

I spoke to an ARDC guy. Said they will do spin tests this year. That's it. No other details :(

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby Zynda » 17 Feb 2017 12:55

Folks, how big was the Russian contingent presence this time at AI?

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby Philip » 17 Feb 2017 13:12

Specs and performance of the VS heavyweight "fish" appear rather modest,when compared with other fish from Europe,Russia,US,UK,etc. The two EU fish,Sea Hake and Black Shark were the ones being considered for the Scorpenes before the AW scandal sank one. The cost comparison could be useful to see how effectively it would fare in the export market. Since it appears to have been designed for our kilos in particular,then Vietnam is the obvious first choice,for their new Kilos,as they also have an LoC for $500M from us.

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby shiv » 17 Feb 2017 16:30

Zynda wrote:Folks, how big was the Russian contingent presence this time at AI?

Very small

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby shiv » 17 Feb 2017 16:33

Cybaru wrote:
shiv wrote:Spent some time at the Kaveri stall. On the negative side they had a full size Kaveri engine on display with no info board but 2-3 leaves of the afterburner nozzles were missing making an ugly picture.
with no label but anyone going close might have seen a couple of small gizmos attached to the engine clearly labelled snecma .


Is this K10?

No. Not the K-10 Some old engine.Didn't ask specs but I now recall that he did mention something like 58 kN dry and 81 wet. The dry engine he did say would go to an unmanned vehicle.. In fact that afterburner pipe and nozzle adds 40% extra to the engine length. If I had not taken a video of my own feet for 15 minutes I would have had the battery power for a photo.

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby arshyam » 17 Feb 2017 16:46

shiv wrote:
Zynda wrote:Folks, how big was the Russian contingent presence this time at AI?

Very small

The Ukrainians were there with 4-5 stalls.

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby Karan M » 17 Feb 2017 17:17

Apparently, the Russians chose AI-17 to make the announcement of successful S-400 sales to PRC. Their PR guys must be hired from the same pool who do Raul baba's PR outreach.

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby Karan M » 17 Feb 2017 17:22

Indian AEW&C induction, includes interior pic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHTluXf80q8

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby hnair » 17 Feb 2017 17:45

Karan M wrote:Apparently, the Russians chose AI-17 to make the announcement of successful S-400 sales to PRC. Their PR guys must be hired from the same pool who do Raul baba's PR outreach.


facepalm!

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby Karan M » 17 Feb 2017 18:21

I am only hoping they dont market Su-35 as successful and good for IAF because they sold it to PRC, next.

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby JTull » 17 Feb 2017 18:50

Karan M wrote:Indian AEW&C induction, includes interior pic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHTluXf80q8


Thanks.

Someone should have asked RM why we're not continuing with production of this variant for next 7-8 years until A330 variant start flying.Why are we perpetually in a Technology Demonstration mode with desi products?

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby JTull » 17 Feb 2017 19:07

Karan M wrote:I am only hoping they dont market Su-35 as successful and good for IAF because they sold it to PRC, next.


To be honest, I'm not a fan of many acquisitions from the Russkies, but some deals have been successful. Su-30MKI is one of them. Many of the problems with that deal were of UPA's creation.

Su-35 a formidable aircraft and until 5th Gen attempts achieve FOC, it will remain the king of the skies for Russians and Chinese. I bet if we want it, then 36 will cost less than half of the Rafales. With Nashik line coming to an end next year, I wouldn't mind getting 36 of those until Su-30MKI upgrade gets going.

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby sudeepj » 17 Feb 2017 23:16



5 work stations inside our desi awacs!


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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby Marten » 18 Feb 2017 01:03

Mods, where is the Aero India 2017 folder? Sorry if I missed it but would dearly love to view the images captured and shared by the junta here.

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby JayS » 18 Feb 2017 01:15

Indranil,

THe Abhyas drone has finished all the development and testing. Its awaiting orders. The main difference between Lakshya and Abhyas is that Lakshya is has more features and is reusable while Abhyas is single use. I have some brochure with some numbers for Abhyas, will post later.

On that EW pod for LCA, I couldn't find a technical guy there. A marketing guy said some bullshit stuff. But it might be so that the config they showed with EW pod near gun location is just marketing gimmick to show all other stations free for weapons and it may not be intended to be placed there at all but it will take up one of the pylons. Take it FWIW since that guy was blabbering things like "Which advanced jets you know which carry gun nowadays anyway?" :roll:

This time the stalls by DRDO/HAL/ADA were fantastic. One full day was totally adequate to browse through entire exhibition. And I also missed the Air Display completely. Lot of information, lot of unanswered questions. I will try to put everything I remember in one place somewhere.

In general I found that the folks at foreign company stalls were very uninterested to talk to people other than business/Armed forces background. Adding to taht most technical persons had left today, only marketing people were manning booths mostly. Total waste I would say to visit them after initial 2-3 days. Whereas ADA/DRDO/HAL/ a few Indian companies folks were very eager to talk to you and answer your questions. A lot of technical team members were present. Brahmos stall had no one to talk to, BEL/OFB looked very uninterested themselves.

One should visit on 2nd or 3rd day for exhibition area ideally. I will remember it for next time.
Last edited by JayS on 18 Feb 2017 01:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby JayS » 18 Feb 2017 01:22

shiv wrote: 2-3 leaves of the afterburner nozzles were missing making an ugly picture.
.


You kidding right..??

GTRE should have had little bigger stall with more flashy stuff. There stall was little sad overall. Especially next to ADA, it looked underdone. But the folks were very responsive and happy to talk for as long as you want.

The GTRE HRD guy I spoke to said, even the stuff they have displayed, took a lot of efforts to get cleared from the authorities. Dunno how correct that it.

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby fanne » 18 Feb 2017 01:40

In my humble opinion showing inside of the AWECs was plain wrong. Why give intel out for no reason. Whoever saw it (e.g. BR) have no use and brag or cry, while the enemy has a decent idea of what is it. (5 station if true is pathetically low number)

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Re: Aero India 2017 - Feb 14 - 18

Postby Karan M » 18 Feb 2017 02:01

Fanne, your points are mistaken.

The AEW&CS has sensor fusion and hence 5 Workstations are quite sufficient.

This is the Erieye. 5 OWS. Is one to inform SAAB they dont know about OWS.
http://greekmilitary.net/Airforce/embra ... rior8h.jpg

Next, the AEW&CS comes with GES. A full blown ground station which connects it with the IACCS.

The Phalcon interiors have been displayed as well.
http://www.livefistdefence.com/2009/06/ ... alcon.html

The AEW&CS interiors are well known too from many years.
http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2013/01/fu ... o-fly.html

There is no magic intel gained from merely seeing the interior of an AWACS. PAF and PRC also operate AWACS. The OWS are shut off.

Lets give the IAF and the actual developers some credit about knowing what real opsec is.
Last edited by Karan M on 18 Feb 2017 02:09, edited 1 time in total.


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