Indian Naval Aviation

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chola
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby chola » 03 Apr 2019 14:30

Rakesh wrote:

Just put the below into a point-by-point list for easier read....

The Government of India has requested to buy;

∙ Twenty-four (24) MH-60R Multi-Mission helicopters, equipped with the following:
∙ thirty (30) APS-153(V) Multi-Mode radars (24 installed, 6 spares);

...

The total estimated cost is $2.6 billion


Potent! I could hardly wait to see it in IN colors.

Apaches and Chinooks and now the Sea Hawk. I never thought I see the day when I first joined BR two decades ago. Lol

Now if we get the F-18 for our IAC 2 ...

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Singha » 03 Apr 2019 14:33

my heart is set on 12 lightly used B1b refurbished with our choice of new glass cockpits , 2t of EW and the coveted rotary racks modded to take our weapons apart from iron bombs, paveways, spice, griffin... @ max loadout, each can carry 80 x 1000lb bombs.
khan has actually tested it on a run with 80 jdams hitting dispersed circles ...video is there.

one is enough to demolish an afb, first with SEAD standoff weapons and A2G gliders/missiles and then moving in to deliver a second wave of gravity munitions.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby tsarkar » 03 Apr 2019 14:33

Karan M wrote:Are those limited number of Hellfires for Diwali celebrations? Because sure as heck, 10 won't do much for any war fighting effort.

Typically missiles are built faster than helicopters and expire earlier as well.

These rounds would be used for checking integration testing and test firing to check the whole system (Helicopter Radar + EO system + missiles) works together seamlessly.

More rounds would be ordered later.

Good to see the NSM ordered. It has an IIR seeker with no emissions detectable by ESM and jammed by EW. Good replacement of the Sea Eagle.

The Seaking + Sea Eagle was the best helicopter + missile combo in the world. Now Seahawk + NSM.

I dont think any other Seahawk carries NSM

Only drawback is 24 dipping sonars ordered. Wish more were ordered.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Karthik S » 03 Apr 2019 14:37

chola wrote:Potent! I could hardly wait to see it in IN colors.

Apaches and Chinooks and now the Sea Hawk. I never thought I see the day when I first joined BR two decades ago. Lol

Now if we get the F-18 for our IAC 2 ...

hold on to your idlis.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby tsarkar » 03 Apr 2019 14:47

nachiket wrote:What will they fire hellfires at? Harbor tugs?


Image

Image

http://www.yonca-onuk.com/yonca-onuk-mr ... 107-1-urun

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby tsarkar » 03 Apr 2019 14:48

The Hellfire and APKWS will be extremely useful in the littoral combat and anti piracy mission where NSM would be overkill.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby nachiket » 03 Apr 2019 15:27

^^Thanks tsarkar

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby brar_w » 03 Apr 2019 17:14

Singha wrote: the NSM is only emulator and training rounds. they want to test full potential of MH60R before taking call.


NSM would most likely not be ordered via US FMS route as Raytheon only has the commercial tie-up to market it for US end users with all other markets being with its OEM in Kongsberg. The emulators and training rounds may be needed to fully develop and finish the integration of the missile with the platform and it may be an internal arrangement between Kongsberg and Lockheed in terms of cost sharing etc.

NSM orders would most likely come via either a direct G2G deal with Norway, or via a direct commercial deal with Kongsberg unless there is a commercial agreement in place between Kongsberg and a US OEM on marketing the missiles along with US platforms..

nachiket wrote:What will they fire hellfires at? Harbor tugs?


Hellfires have been adapted by the US Navy for a couple of missions both from surface based and air based assets. Particularly in the littorals, these are extremely capable and cost effective option against a wide range of fast boat and lightly armored vessels especially when there may be a large number of them. It gives you longer stand off ranges than just relying on the gun and along with the gun they give you the ability to kill many more targets if a saturated attack is mounted. They can also serve a dual role over land in the littorals. APKS is likewise quite a cost effective option against this threat as it gives a larger, and more cost effective magazine compared to both the Hellfires and NSM.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BrkjB6YuG4

Can this thing survive a Hellfire strike (it can potentially carry a 15-20 km ranged Anti Ship missile)?

Image

@Karan, the number may reflect an initial procurement and a follow-on weapons order may come down the road. Alternatively, this could be an interim purchase until the JAGM is integrated on the platform.

tsarkar wrote:I dont think any other Seahawk carries NSM


Nope based on my knowledge the IN will be the first. This was something that Kongsberg and Lockheed Martin began working on in 2013 or so with flight checks occurring a year or two later. This has been a long standing requirement for the US Navy, and with it picking the NSM for the SSC fleet the missile is all but sure to also be picked for the MH-60R by them also.
Last edited by brar_w on 03 Apr 2019 17:42, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby kit » 03 Apr 2019 17:16

The NSM seems like a gold standard for anti-ship missiles, arms the American independence class destroyers as well, plus land attack capability."Good resistance to electronic countermeasures" that is the key to this missile. uses a combination of an imaging infrared (IIR) seeker and an onboard target database. NSM is able to navigate by GPS, inertial and terrain reference systems. ( read stealth )

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby brar_w » 03 Apr 2019 17:20

kit wrote:The NSM seems like a gold standard for anti-ship missiles, arms the American independence class destroyers as well, plus land attack capability."Good resistance to electronic countermeasures" that is the key to this missile. uses a combination of an imaging infrared (IIR) seeker and an onboard target database. NSM is able to navigate by GPS, inertial and terrain reference systems. ( read stealth )

NSM is what the US Navy picked for its Small Surface Combatants (Frigates and LCS Corvettes) not its heavier destroyers that can accommodate larger missiles via the VLS. As you said it is a passive missile, has LO design features and is quite capable as a sea skimmer, with the combination opening up the possibility of a completely passive attack (Low-Low-Low profile) making it virtually undetectable, without overhead surveillance aircraft, until the very last moment. If passive attack was what one was looking for, and size and weight not a limit, then I would think the gold standard would be the LRASM, at least when it comes to Western Systems. The US Navy and other Seakawk operators have used the Kongsberg AGM-119 Penguin in the past, and the NSM for the most part fits in the same size/weight class so is probably the best option for these helos.
Last edited by brar_w on 03 Apr 2019 17:33, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby John » 03 Apr 2019 17:41

The order is not for any NSM missile only training rounds and emulator. Not sure if a different deal will be signed for that.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby brar_w » 03 Apr 2019 17:46

John wrote:The order is not for any NSM missile only training rounds and emulator. Not sure if a different deal will be signed for that.


The US Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) is not the vehicle one would use to buy a Norwegian weapon unless there is an explicit commercial agreement between the Norwegians and the US OEMs/Government of allowing US OEM's or US subsidiaries to negotiate directly with US FMS appointees (US Navy in this case) for foreign purchases.

The training round and emulators will likely be needed to be developed and cleared on the platform because this will be the first use case for the missile from any helicopter, let along the MH-60R. A follow on order for the missile can then be placed once that work has been done and demonstrated.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Rakesh » 03 Apr 2019 19:34

Vishnu Som twitter thread on why the MH-60R is a game changer for the Indian Navy. Click on link below.

A better "visual" read is there in this link ----> https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1113 ... 07584.html

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 8032707584 ----> MILITARY NERD ALERT: Don't read this if military technology is not your thing. Its just that the Indian Navy's acquisition of 24 MH-60R choppers from the US is a transformative capability in the Indian Ocean. Let me explain why, system by system.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby kit » 03 Apr 2019 20:40

brar_w wrote:
John wrote:The order is not for any NSM missile only training rounds and emulator. Not sure if a different deal will be signed for that.


The US Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) is not the vehicle one would use to buy a Norwegian weapon unless there is an explicit commercial agreement between the Norwegians and the US OEMs/Government of allowing US OEM's or US subsidiaries to negotiate directly with US FMS appointees (US Navy in this case) for foreign purchases.

The training round and emulators will likely be needed to be developed and cleared on the platform because this will be the first use case for the missile from any helicopter, let along the MH-60R. A follow on order for the missile can then be placed once that work has been done and demonstrated.


Doesn't Raytheon sell the NSMs as their joint venture with kongsberg

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby John » 03 Apr 2019 20:41

brar_w wrote:
John wrote:The order is not for any NSM missile only training rounds and emulator. Not sure if a different deal will be signed for that.


The US Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) is not the vehicle one would use to buy a Norwegian weapon unless there is an explicit commercial agreement between the Norwegians and the US OEMs/Government of allowing US OEM's or US subsidiaries to negotiate directly with US FMS appointees (US Navy in this case) for foreign purchases.

The training round and emulators will likely be needed to be developed and cleared on the platform because this will be the first use case for the missile from any helicopter, let along the MH-60R. A follow on order for the missile can then be placed once that work has been done and demonstrated.


Yea just stating that NSM is not done deal still some work left and still has to go thru another round of procurement with Kongsberg and considering MoD track record we won’t see these any time soon. If this turns into another tender add another 5 years.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby brar_w » 03 Apr 2019 20:52

kit wrote:
Doesn't Raytheon sell the NSMs as their joint venture with kongsberg


It is my understanding the this arrangement is only for US operators and not the global sales campaigns that may be going on for either use.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Kartik » 04 Apr 2019 02:31

Karan M wrote:Are those limited number of Hellfires for Diwali celebrations? Because sure as heck, 10 won't do much for any war fighting effort.


Perhaps evaluation purposes? Before a much larger order is placed? See the number of inert training Naval Strike Missiles that have been ordered as well.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Kartik » 04 Apr 2019 02:36

BTW, this is heartening news. The MH-60R is by far the most capable ship borne ASW helicopter out there and with upgrades available via the USN's roadmap, it should be supportable and upgradeable well into the future. One of the single most needed platforms for the Indian Navy, should be a game changer.

But surely just 24 isn't enough?

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby nachiket » 04 Apr 2019 03:14

Kartik wrote:BTW, this is heartening news. The MH-60R is by far the most capable ship borne ASW helicopter out there and with upgrades available via the USN's roadmap, it should be supportable and upgradeable well into the future. One of the single most needed platforms for the Indian Navy, should be a game changer.

But surely just 24 isn't enough?

A bigger order will have to go through the usual RFI-RFP-tender-evaluation-L1 process.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Rakesh » 04 Apr 2019 03:32

Aiyoo! Please No! Hoping we can just do a repeat order of another 24 birds. The MH-60R is a beast.

There are three units right now - INAS 330 Harpoons based at Mumbai with Sea King Mk42B, INAS 333 Eagles based at Vizag with Ka-28 and INAS 336 Flaming Arrows based at Kochi. INAS 336 serves as a conversion/training unit for the Sea King Mk 42B/C variants I believe.

While the first batch will replace the Sea King Mk42Bs, a repeat batch (if ordered) will replace the Ka-28. Both the Sea King Mk42B and the Ka-28 are long in the tooth and badly need replacement.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Sumair » 04 Apr 2019 07:47

chola wrote:Potent! I could hardly wait to see it in IN colors.

Apaches and Chinooks and now the Sea Hawk. I never thought I see the day when I first joined BR two decades ago. Lol

Now if we get the F-18 for our IAC 2 ...

Dr. Vivek Lall :wink:

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Katare » 04 Apr 2019 08:10

He is selling F-16s now a days...

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby brar_w » 04 Apr 2019 18:48

John wrote:Yea just stating that NSM is not done deal still some work left and still has to go thru another round of procurement with Kongsberg and considering MoD track record we won’t see these any time soon. If this turns into another tender add another 5 years.


FMS notifications are only a starting point of negotiations with the contractors, even for items that are listed as approved in the FMS case. There are almost always commercial components in any FMS deals that are either negotiated directly between the purchaser and the OEM or are not announced by the DSCA because the transaction is not handled by it. Think of commercial sales, offsets and extended PBL agreements that are not tied to delivery dates. For all we know, NSM talks could be as mature as the rest of the stuff or they could all be starting just now. Hopefully, the MOD doesn't drag its feet on these because there is really no plan B or an alternate suitable weapon that is as capable, or as easy and cheap to integrate into the platform from both a cost and risk perspective. Lockheed and Kongsberg have been more than willing to integrate the missile themselves and they have already done this on surface platforms so its going to be a fairly straightforward task given that some of the work has already been done..MH-60R plus NSM would add a very interesting dimension to the overall surface force's capability over and above the surface attack abilities of the vessels..This is something no current Romeo operator currently has..

More from a recent Jane's Article -

Kongsberg NSM to equip Indian MH-60R helicopters


he Indian Navy appears poised to become the first customer for the Kongsberg Naval Strike Missile (NSM) in a helicopter-launched application.
According to US Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) documentation, the missile will be integrated into Lockheed Martin/Sikorsky MH-60R multimission helicopters that India is looking to acquire under a Foreign Military Sale (FMS) case.

NSM was originally developed by Kongsberg to meet the Royal Norwegian Navy’s requirements for a highly discriminative, low-observable surface-to-surface guided weapon able to penetrate shipboard defences and operate effectively in blue water and littoral environments. Capable of ranges up to 200 km, it combines GPS-aided midcourse guidance with an advanced dual-band imaging infrared seeker.

NSM has been sold for ship-launched and coastal battery applications. However, Kongsberg has for some time been positioning the same missile, which has been designed from the outset to be capable of air launch, as a natural successor to the helicopter-launched Mk 2 Mod 7 Penguin anti-ship missile on the S-70B/MH-60R family of helicopters.

A missile fit check with the MH-60R was completed in mid-2014 (the NSM mechanical interface would use the existing Penguin integration with one pylon-mounted missile carried on either beam). Kongsberg has been actively supporting MH-60R export sales campaigns.

A DSCA notification published on 2 April advised the State Department’s approval for an FMS sale of 24 MH-60R helicopters to India. The package includes two NSM emulators and four NSM captive inert training missiles (CATMs).

No operational NSM missiles are included in the FMS case. Jane’s understands that these would be supplied under a separate sales agreement.
As well as NSM emulators and CATMs, the DSCA notice also revealed plans to supply Indian MH-60Rs with Lockheed Martin AGM-114 missiles and BAE Systems’ Advanced Precision Kill Weapons System guided rockets. The Indian Navy had previously fielded the BAe Dynamics Sea Eagle anti-ship missile from its fleet of Sea King Mk42B helicopters. However, Sea Eagle was retired from service in the 2000s.


Kartik wrote:BTW, this is heartening news. The MH-60R is by far the most capable ship borne ASW helicopter out there and with upgrades available via the USN's roadmap, it should be supportable and upgradeable well into the future. One of the single most needed platforms for the Indian Navy, should be a game changer.

But surely just 24 isn't enough?


Yes this is an important point [ being able to tap into USN investment just like on the P-8] as this is one of the most important helicopter programs for the USN and many other navies around the world. One of the most important capability enhancements to the aircraft, since it first flew, is going to be the AN/ALQ-248 Advanced Off-Board Electronic Warfare system, and particularly its Active Mission Payload which should fly by the end of this year and be ready for operational service in the near term. It is one of the 3 identified US Navy Electronic Warfare priorities for ship protection against advanced anti-ship missile threats.

From a recent Journal of Electronic Defense (JED) article -

The AMP program stems from the identified requirement - originally characterized as the AOEW Decoy Development Effort (DDE) - for a ship-launched, long-duration, active electronic off- board decoy system integrated onto an existing flight vehicle, and used in coordination with the AN/SLQ-32(V)6/7 shipborne EW system.

Although the AOEW DDE had originally considered the use of an unmanned air vehicle, NAV- SEA revealed in April 2014 that the AMP pod would be hosted by, and integrated onto, the MH-60R and MH-60S multimission helicopters. The AN/ALQ-248 will be able to engage threats in both self-contained and coordinated modes. In the former case, the pod will use its own receiver system to detect, identify and track threat emitters, and then activate the advanced EA subsystem to generate and transmit the appropriate RF jamming techniques. In the coordinated mode, a shipborne AN/SLQ-32 system will detect incoming anti-ship missile threats, then cue and control the helicopter-borne AMP (via Link 16) using its Soft-Kill Coordination System (SKCS) function; AMP EA effects will be coordinated by SLQ-32/SKCS in conjunction with other soft-kill RF countermeasures during the engagement.

While the US Navy will not discuss specifics of EA techniques and tactics, PEO IWS has confirmed that AOEW AMP will provide both point defense and area defense capabilities in support of fleet operations. "AOEW is putting a very capable podded electronic surveillance and electronic attack capability onto the MH-60 platform," said Joe Ottaviano, Lockheed Martin's director of electronic warfare. "It is the first long-duration offboard active module decoy [and] it extends the reach of the naval enterprise electronic warfare system beyond just the electronic horizon of the ship.


Image
Last edited by brar_w on 04 Apr 2019 20:52, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Singha » 04 Apr 2019 20:00

BAE systems has offered the QE2 design to india for vishal

http://www.australiandefence.com.au/new ... n-to-india

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby chetak » 04 Apr 2019 20:25

Singha wrote:BAE systems has offered the QE2 design to india for vishal

http://www.australiandefence.com.au/new ... n-to-india


they must be bleeding badly through all their colonial holes.

the very dim prospects, post brexit, causing them to pawn the family silver??

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby brar_w » 04 Apr 2019 20:31

chetak wrote:
Singha wrote:BAE systems has offered the QE2 design to india for vishal

http://www.australiandefence.com.au/new ... n-to-india


they must be bleeding badly through all their colonial holes.

the very dim prospects, post brexit, causing them to pawn the family silver??


They are offering carrier design not their own carriers.

“BAE Systems is pleased to have begun discussions with India about the potential for basing development of the second Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC-2) project on the Queen Elizabeth class design,” the representative said. “The design is adaptable to offer either ski-jump or catapult launch and can be modified to meet Indian Navy and local industry requirements.”
Read more at http://www.australiandefence.com.au/new ... RC9xg4P.99


The French, if reports about discussions to that end are true, are probably also trying to offer something based on or highly influenced by the work on a Next gen. carrier that their industry is doing. The US too would be discussing systems and concepts that it has developed for itself such as EMALS or steam based catapults and other technologies. It makes complete sense for OEM's like BAE, GA or HII etc to offer something that they themselves understand or have been able to demonstrate rather than something that is so brand new that it offers no competitive advantage over potential rivals.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Singha » 04 Apr 2019 20:39

anything would be better than kuznetsov design which the PLAN is investing heavily into

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby negi » 04 Apr 2019 20:57

Ah design how I love that shit ; in world of consulting you offer design because 'a' the work is meaty no headache of keeping deadlines around build etc , secondly and most importantly you own the IP , get to design it in a way where you can ensure only your components and modules can be integrated iow sustainable revenue . All in all now that we have capability in house we are getting offers from poodles.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby chetak » 04 Apr 2019 20:59

brar_w wrote:
chetak wrote:
they must be bleeding badly through all their colonial holes.

the very dim prospects, post brexit, causing them to pawn the family silver??


They are offering carrier design not their own carriers.

“BAE Systems is pleased to have begun discussions with India about the potential for basing development of the second Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC-2) project on the Queen Elizabeth class design,” the representative said. “The design is adaptable to offer either ski-jump or catapult launch and can be modified to meet Indian Navy and local industry requirements.”
Read more at http://www.australiandefence.com.au/new ... RC9xg4P.99


The French, if reports about discussions to that end are true, are probably also trying to offer something based on or highly influenced by the work on a Next gen. carrier that their industry is doing. The US too would be discussing systems and concepts that it has developed for itself such as EMALS or steam based catapults and other technologies. It makes complete sense for OEM's like BAE, GA or HII etc to offer something that they themselves understand or have been able to demonstrate rather than something that is so brand new that it offers no competitive advantage over potential rivals.



I am aware that it is only the carrier design that is being offered but with design, the technical consultancy will soon follow and along with that, the age old brit expertise in "dealing" with India, her baboo(n)s and politicos.

They will soon spinoff that "foot in the door" tidbit offer into a major business venture very quickly and have us by the short and curlies for decades to come.

besides, have we not learned any lessons from the decrepit junk that they saddled us with since 1947?? that the brits are not to be trusted??

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby brar_w » 04 Apr 2019 21:28

chetak wrote:
I am aware that it is only the carrier design that is being offered but with design, the technical consultancy will soon follow and along with that, the age old brit expertise in "dealing" with India, her baboo(n)s and politicos


Thanks for clarifying as I could not make that out from the post. Didn't BAE systems along with shipyards and contractors from France, Russia the US etc respond to an RFI that the MOD floated? I assume that data provided by each entitity to that end would involve some sort of design and consultancy work as that goes without saying. The same applies to EMALS or Steams catapult systems..it will involve both product and OEM participation..

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby AdityaM » 04 Apr 2019 21:31

Navy has 45 Mig29k while the Vikramaditya flies with 30.

So the remaining 15 is a big surplus to have. What are they used for- training and reserves. But that’s a 50% reserve

Today saw a lot of 29k and Kamovs at an airbase. Not sure if they are all reserves or the mothership is docked

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby sudeepj » 04 Apr 2019 21:34

How does the MH60R differ from the S70B that was being negotiated earlier?

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby negi » 04 Apr 2019 21:38

5-6 will be kept for spares easily . Then there are trainer versions too (I am not numbers guy so don't know how many) so it's not a big reserve.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Kakarat » 04 Apr 2019 21:41

AdityaM wrote:Navy has 45 Mig29k while the Vikramaditya flies with 30.

So the remaining 15 is a big surplus to have. What are they used for- training and reserves. But that’s a 50% reserve

Today saw a lot of 29k and Kamovs at an airbase. Not sure if they are all reserves or the mothership is docked


Having 45 doesn't mean all are available, some of them might be under servicing and unavailable for flying

Also the Vikramaditya wouldn't be sailing with its full complement of fighters and the air component would include helicopters too. The numbers would depend on the type of mission

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby chetak » 04 Apr 2019 21:55

brar_w wrote:
chetak wrote:
I am aware that it is only the carrier design that is being offered but with design, the technical consultancy will soon follow and along with that, the age old brit expertise in "dealing" with India, her baboo(n)s and politicos


Thanks for clarifying as I could not make that out from the post. Didn't BAE systems along with shipyards and contractors from France, Russia the US etc respond to an RFI that the MOD floated? I assume that data provided by each entitity to that end would involve some sort of design and consultancy work as that goes without saying. The same applies to EMALS or Steams catapult systems..it will involve both product and OEM participation..



EMALS or even steam catapult systems are lumped with aero engine tech and there they will stay. They will be dangled enticingly every now and then to sweeten some other deal but I seriously doubt if the goras will part with it so easily or at all.

The goras are watching carefully and they don't like what they see. This scares and disheartens them.

The locomotive manufacture/upgrades which was dependant on the goras for the longest time is today increasingly being done locally and much faster than anyone ever anticipated.

Likewise, our train 18 set has blown them away. Possibly lost markets for them and just maybe a new competitor has arrived. We have also emerged as the largest rail coach maker in the world, overtaking the hans recently.

So every offer must be evaluated on merits by competent people of proven expertise and not naively and foolishly like we did with our russki white elephant carrier and the 29Ks.



India’s first indigenous 9,000 HP electric locomotive has been rolled out from the Chittaranjan Locomotive Works (CLW) plant, providing a significant boost to the ‘Make In India’ programme, reports Financial Express (FE).

Though the Indian Railways inducted a 12,000 horsepower (HP) locomotive in April 2018, it was made under a joint venture between France and India. However, the 9000 HP locomotive was manufactured by the national transporter using local expertise.

According to a CLW official, the locomotive was built by upgrading the 6000 HP electric locomotive at an incremental cost of Rs 1.06 crore. This extra horsepower will go a long way in increasing the average speeds of both freight and passenger trains in the country.
Last edited by chetak on 04 Apr 2019 21:59, edited 1 time in total.

brar_w
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby brar_w » 04 Apr 2019 21:58

chetak wrote:EMALS or even steams catapult systems are lumped with aero engine tech and there they will stay.

The goras are watching carefully and they don't like what they see. This scares and disheartens them.

The locomotive manufacture/upgrades which was dependant on the goras for the longest time is today increasingly being done locally and much faster than anyone ever anticipated.

Likewise, our train 18 set has blown them away. Possibly lost markets for them and just maybe a new competitor has arrived. We have also emerged as the largest rail coach maker in the world, overtaking the hans recently.

So every offer must be evaluated on merits by competent people of proven expertise and not naively and foolishly like we did with our russki white elephant carrier and the 29Ks.


I don't see how any of this is relevant to what I was saying. Didn't the MOD issue an RFI to foreign shipyards and other OEM's that may have expertise or technologies relevant to a large carrier? If that was the case (that is how i remember it) then what BAE is offering is entirely consistent with what pretty much each and every OEM that received that request is likely to do..so expect the French to offer what they have have or are currently working on and same with US yards or supplier OEM's like General Atomics et al. The rest is for the MOD and IN to determine, evaluate and decide.

chetak
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby chetak » 04 Apr 2019 22:01

brar_w wrote:
chetak wrote:EMALS or even steams catapult systems are lumped with aero engine tech and there they will stay.

The goras are watching carefully and they don't like what they see. This scares and disheartens them.

The locomotive manufacture/upgrades which was dependant on the goras for the longest time is today increasingly being done locally and much faster than anyone ever anticipated.

Likewise, our train 18 set has blown them away. Possibly lost markets for them and just maybe a new competitor has arrived. We have also emerged as the largest rail coach maker in the world, overtaking the hans recently.

So every offer must be evaluated on merits by competent people of proven expertise and not naively and foolishly like we did with our russki white elephant carrier and the 29Ks.


I don't see how any of this is relevant to what I was saying. Didn't the MOD issue an RFI to foreign shipyards and other OEM's that may have expertise or technologies relevant to a large carrier? If that was the case (that is how i remember it) then what BAE is offering is entirely consistent with what pretty much each and every OEM that received that request is likely to do..so expect the French to offer what they have have or are currently working on and same with US yards or supplier OEM's like General Atomics et al. The rest is for the MOD and IN to determine, evaluate and decide.


wokay.

whatever they may have offered on paper, no gora is going to help create a second china.

Rakesh
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Rakesh » 05 Apr 2019 01:48

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1113751247851405312 ----> Hardly, surprising this. UK is apparently offering the QE Class Aircraft Carrier design to India.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1113881649425424384 ---> India better design its own third aircraft carrier with some consultancy support. Buying an off-the-shelf design will not prove cost-effective. With low levels of indigenous content, it will essentially be yet another multi-year CBM (transfer) to foreign entities.

chetak
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby chetak » 05 Apr 2019 01:58

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1113751247851405312 ----> Hardly, surprising this. UK is apparently offering the QE Class Aircraft Carrier design to India.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1113881649425424384 ---> India better design its own third aircraft carrier with some consultancy support . Buying an off-the-shelf design will not prove cost-effective. With low levels of indigenous content, it will essentially be yet another multi-year CBM (transfer) to foreign entities.


This may be for the best.

we may not really have the full blown technical expertise to even evaluate such an offer in its entirety.

Is it true that a private shipyard recently landed in deep schitt after building a bought out design and then half way through the build realize that there was a major flaw in the design?? and as a consequence, took a massive financial hit??.
Last edited by chetak on 05 Apr 2019 02:02, edited 1 time in total.

nachiket
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby nachiket » 05 Apr 2019 02:01

AdityaM wrote:Navy has 45 Mig29k while the Vikramaditya flies with 30.

So the remaining 15 is a big surplus to have. What are they used for- training and reserves. But that’s a 50% reserve

Today saw a lot of 29k and Kamovs at an airbase. Not sure if they are all reserves or the mothership is docked

30 is the max that can be carried if it is a Mig-29 only airwing. In practice part of the air-wing will be made up of helicopters (Ka-28s, Chetaks, Dhruv). So number of Mig-29's carried will be less. The rest will be tasked with shore-based anti-shipping and air-defence role, like the IAF's Jaguar IM's. Serviceability is never 100%, so not all 45 will be available at any given time.


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