Indian Naval Aviation

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Rakesh » 05 Apr 2019 02:30

chola wrote:Potent! I could hardly wait to see it in IN colors.

Apaches and Chinooks and now the Sea Hawk. I never thought I see the day when I first joined BR two decades ago. Lol

Now if we get the F-18 for our IAC 2 ...

Chola, your wish may just come true ;)

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1113313115784056832 ---> And Boeing India appoints Rear Admiral Surendra Ahuja (Retd.) as its new MD for Boeing Defense in India. Interesting choice — Rear Admiral Ahuja (Retd.) was the Indian Navy's first ‘new mould’ carrier pilot and the first Indian pilot to land on INS Vikramaditya.

Image

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby sankum » 05 Apr 2019 03:18

INS Vikramaditya has two combination of airwing.

24 Mig29k + 6 Helos=30 Aircrafts.

21 Mig 29k + 13 Helos= 34 Aircraft.

The standard complement is 20 Mig 29K + 8 helos=28 Aircraft.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby chola » 05 Apr 2019 04:38

Singha wrote:BAE systems has offered the QE2 design to india for vishal

http://www.australiandefence.com.au/new ... n-to-india


Heck no, the Vishal will be CATOBAR. No damn ramp.

Rakesh wrote:Chola, your wish may just come true ;)

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1113313115784056832 ---> And Boeing India appoints Rear Admiral Surendra Ahuja (Retd.) as its new MD for Boeing Defense in India. Interesting choice — Rear Admiral Ahuja (Retd.) was the Indian Navy's first ‘new mould’ carrier pilot and the first Indian pilot to land on INS Vikramaditya.

Lol. Obviously, the SHornet must stand on its own merits but that is a pretty impressive Sales Rep!

As above, the Vishal will be 65k-ton CATOBAR. There isn't a better carrier aircraft in terms of its multi-role abilities. obviously a few F-35Cs would be nice too.

That said, I wouldn't be opposed to the Rafale-M for commonality with the air force.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Pratyush » 05 Apr 2019 10:33

No foreign vendor can ever be trusted. The are only further own interests.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Austin » 05 Apr 2019 10:55

sankum wrote:INS Vikramaditya has two combination of airwing.

24 Mig29k + 6 Helos=30 Aircrafts.

21 Mig 29k + 13 Helos= 34 Aircraft.

The standard complement is 20 Mig 29K + 8 helos=28 Aircraft.


In practical or wartime screnario the ratio is 60:40 , So 60 % are choppers and 40 % are aircraft.

An AC for IN is a significant asset for ASW with its huge Bow Sonar and others plus Choppers that can be maintained on the roll 24x7 that is also a primary task of AC besides Fleet AD ...and equally imp task of SAR

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby JTull » 05 Apr 2019 12:18

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1113313115784056832 ---> And Boeing India appoints Rear Admiral Surendra Ahuja (Retd.) as its new MD for Boeing Defense in India. Interesting choice — Rear Admiral Ahuja (Retd.) was the Indian Navy's first ‘new mould’ carrier pilot and the first Indian pilot to land on INS Vikramaditya.


Indian Pilot Records First At Sea Qualification Aboard Carrier

The first Indian Navy pilot to successfully complete carrier qualifications aboard a U.S. aircraft carrier landed his T-45C Goshawk aboard USS Enterprise (CVN 65) for the final time May 9.

Assigned as a flight instructor under training for Training Wing (TW) 2 at Naval Air Station Kingsville, Indian Navy Capt. Surendra Ahuja participated in carrier qualifications (CQ) off the coast of Key West, Fla., setting a benchmark for other Indian pilots.


This is what you get for sending your pilots to massa. All are eventually turned. There's no reason to believe that IN secrets won't be revealed by above appointment.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby negi » 05 Apr 2019 12:33

Actually sending IN pilots to USA itself is intriguing for our guys were anyways getting trained in Russia , we had no US carrier or carrier based AC then or even now to justify such a move ; my reading of things tells me it was a clever ploy by Massa to nurture feelings for it's toys in the Indian camp , catch the fly boys and catch them young. Most of the leadership positions in India division of likes of UTC , Boeing and L&M are ex armed forces which is not alarming or bad as such however we should definitely be careful about controlling their influence on our modernisation program . While such developments will obviously help likes of Boeing with image and positioning in India I am afraid all this will come at cost of our long term interests around need to become self reliant in this space. It is a ripe time for government to think about setting some guidelines and policies where some critical areas or platforms have to be developed and not imported . Moronic ideas like EMALs for Indian carrier etc come from such influences .

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby mody » 05 Apr 2019 15:32

Are the Indian MH-60R going to have MAD sensors or has IN given it up? IN had stuck with S-70B, even when MH-60R was first offered, as it wanted MAD sensors to be part of the helicopter. The S-70B had MAD sensors, but the upgraded MH-60R had done away with them.

Even for the P-8Is, the IN has opted for MAD sensors, while the USN doesn't have them on their P-8As.

For MH60R, if IN wants MAD sensors, it will have to be an extra fitment. Don't know if they have opted for it or not.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Kakarat » 05 Apr 2019 15:35

This is what the Navy is buying

Image

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby chola » 05 Apr 2019 16:08

mody wrote:Are the Indian MH60R going to have MAD sensors or has IN given it up? IN had stuck with S70B, even when MH60R was first offered, as it wanted MAD sensors to be part of the helicopter. The S70B had MAD sensors, but the upgraded MH60R had done away with them.
Even for the P8I's IN has opted for MAD sensors, while the USN doesn't have them on their P8A's.
For MH60R, if IN wants MAD sensors, it will have to be an extra fitment. Don't know if they have opted for it or not.



From my limited knowledge, it doesn't make too much sense for helos. You need to cover a lot of area because the range of detection is tiny. That's why they are on MPA type fixed wing aircraft. It is the same as visual scouting by foot versus horseback. And MAD detection range is less than the Mark I eyeball.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Karan M » 05 Apr 2019 16:26

Rakesh wrote:
chola wrote:Potent! I could hardly wait to see it in IN colors.

Apaches and Chinooks and now the Sea Hawk. I never thought I see the day when I first joined BR two decades ago. Lol

Now if we get the F-18 for our IAC 2 ...

Chola, your wish may just come true ;)

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1113313115784056832 ---> And Boeing India appoints Rear Admiral Surendra Ahuja (Retd.) as its new MD for Boeing Defense in India. Interesting choice — Rear Admiral Ahuja (Retd.) was the Indian Navy's first ‘new mould’ carrier pilot and the first Indian pilot to land on INS Vikramaditya.]


There was this as well.

Not happy with this.

This is a clear case of conflict of interest.

Very non committal rebuttals here.
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/09 ... -navy.html
Read the last comment.
https://bharatkarnad.com/2017/09/02/car ... ft-muddle/

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Karan M » 05 Apr 2019 16:32

You cannot have a man leading a multi-vendor procurement, accused (whether justifiably or not) of scuttling an Indian alternative to that procurement, post retirement end up becoming the representative of one of the vendors, taking all the details of that procurement with him (obviously). This should be flagged and not allowed. It makes a mockery of the process and raises many questions about his actions and even how fair the procurement will be.

This event has ridiculously similar parallels to ACM SP Tyagi (of the Agusta Westland case controversy) becoming a rep for the Indian firm which was to assemble Barak missiles, when he chose aforesaid JV Barak missiles over the near fully indigenous Akash program, and tried to limit it to 2 squadrons alone. Subsequently, allegedly, the Indian Govt had BDL take up that role, and had Mr Tyagi resign from that role.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Singha » 05 Apr 2019 19:04

Chicago univ booth school of business is a costly school

Deeper digging if goi wishes might reveal some secrets if it was sponsored by ...

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Rakesh » 05 Apr 2019 19:41

The IAF is hell bent against tying the MMRCA deal to the 57-carrier borne fighter order. This will be interesting to see how it plays out.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Singha » 05 Apr 2019 21:01

I think rafale-M is a better bet than Shornet atleast the spares etc will be common and they can also swing role into a land based deployment to beef up the other two squadrons if needed. overall its the better A2A and A2G platform unless you have khan grade non-export gear like the "passive eagle protection kit" ... it can operate from Leh type heights, which the F18 design is not optimized for.

there is nothing that prevents the Mig29K from being a land based fighter either. they need not remain tied to dabolim or karwar.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby bhavani » 05 Apr 2019 21:11

Kakarat wrote:This is what the Navy is buying


So we are getting 25 MH-60 in total

24- New MH-60R and 1 MH-60B/R from legacy stock

One interesting item on the list is the The Advanced precision kill weapon system rockets, But we are just getting 30 of these Guided Rockets. These are very light weapons. Also will we be equipping Mh-60 with NSM. We should arm the Mig-29K and Rafale with NSM.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby chetak » 05 Apr 2019 22:36

Rakesh wrote:The IAF is hell bent against tying the MMRCA deal to the 57-carrier borne fighter order. This will be interesting to see how it plays out.


they intend to make the forces depend almost entirely on the ameriki MIC and that is not so good for us.

Too much of a risk with unreliable presidents and equally unreliable congress/senate and the ever present downside of a India hating ameriki deep state.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby chetak » 05 Apr 2019 22:39

JTull wrote:
Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1113313115784056832 ---> And Boeing India appoints Rear Admiral Surendra Ahuja (Retd.) as its new MD for Boeing Defense in India. Interesting choice — Rear Admiral Ahuja (Retd.) was the Indian Navy's first ‘new mould’ carrier pilot and the first Indian pilot to land on INS Vikramaditya.


Indian Pilot Records First At Sea Qualification Aboard Carrier

The first Indian Navy pilot to successfully complete carrier qualifications aboard a U.S. aircraft carrier landed his T-45C Goshawk aboard USS Enterprise (CVN 65) for the final time May 9.

Assigned as a flight instructor under training for Training Wing (TW) 2 at Naval Air Station Kingsville, Indian Navy Capt. Surendra Ahuja participated in carrier qualifications (CQ) off the coast of Key West, Fla., setting a benchmark for other Indian pilots.


This is what you get for sending your pilots to massa. All are eventually turned. There's no reason to believe that IN secrets won't be revealed by above appointment.


ameriki soft power and the insidious rapier thrust of the dollar.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby JayS » 05 Apr 2019 23:12

Wow. The way things happen in India are incredible.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby John » 06 Apr 2019 00:28

Singha wrote:I think rafale-M is a better bet than Shornet atleast the spares etc will be common and they can also swing role into a land based deployment to beef up the other two squadrons if needed. overall its the better A2A and A2G platform unless you have khan grade non-export gear like the "passive eagle protection kit" ... it can operate from Leh type heights, which the F18 design is not optimized for.

there is nothing that prevents the Mig29K from being a land based fighter either. they need not remain tied to dabolim or karwar.


Big problem with Rafael-M is dassault demand than navy funds the certification for ski jump operations. Plus F-414 simplifies LCA and F-18E operations together in the carrier. That F-18 is an older platform and doesn’t give major leap in capability over LCA Mk2. To be honest I would rather have navy work on 5th gen AC or procure F-35 to replace Mig-29k.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Rakesh » 06 Apr 2019 06:54

Of all the three carrier designs offered (officially or un-officially) to India, the French PA-2 is best. She is a CATOBAR carrier + EMALS.

https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/1113796053256425478 ---> As far as I know, not just one, but total three different nations offered their aircraft carrier design, either directly for IAC-2 or just as an export

1) PA 2 from France
2) Shtorm from Russia
3) Queen Elizabeth Class from UK

I see , US yet to offer any.

1) PA 2 from France

Image

2) Shtorm from Russia

Image

3) Queen Elizabeth Class from UK

Image

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby brar_w » 06 Apr 2019 07:54

Rakesh wrote:Of all the three carrier designs offered (officially or un-officially) to India, the French PA-2 is best. She is a CATOBAR carrier + EMALS.
[/img]


I don't know the details of the PA-2 because the design is not final yet but it will most likely be nuclear powered thereby putting the designers in the same situation as those who designed the QE and later deliberated adding EMALS. At least there the USN and General Atomics conducted a fairly comprehensive trade analysis to see what the possibilities were. A conventionally powered PA-2 with EMALS does not appear to hold much over a the QE-2 with EMALS though the latter obviously enjoys the advantage of being in service (at the time the decision is to be made) with two examples being in the water and the fact that there exists at least some preliminary work to validate how it will absorb EMALS without switching to nuclear power.

The US will likely offer design cooperation and technology like EMALS as I doubt there is anything mature sitting as a design in that size/class though some very interesting medium sized carriers designs are sitting at the US Naval academy as they were part of the trade space for the CVN-21 study that eventually led to the Ford.

What a CATOBAR QE would look like -

Image
Last edited by brar_w on 06 Apr 2019 09:22, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Singha » 06 Apr 2019 09:19

if wishes were horses the PA2 design looks the best fit.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Cain Marko » 06 Apr 2019 10:45

Frankly, I think India should reasonably consider a full blown US carrier replete with US fighters as a bulwark against China in the east provided of course the US doesn't hope for too much commercial gain from such a deal. Offer it at friendship prices. Best the Russians at their game. Say a refurbed CV with shornets and e2. India manages operational costs.

Otherwise IN should just fix on stretched Vikrant design with the fulcrum as it's main bird. Forget the cats, those designs are out of budget. It'll have to be stobar but that's good enough for air cover and some a2g work.
Last edited by Cain Marko on 06 Apr 2019 11:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Arun.prabhu » 06 Apr 2019 10:53

Not going to happen. US gov will not loan a CV and purchasing it and equipping it to USN standard is cost prohibitive.

Cain Marko wrote:Frankly, I think India should reasonably consider a full blown US carrier replete with US fighters as a bulwark against China in the east provided of course the US doesn't hope for too much commercial gain from such a deal. Offer it at friendship prices. Best the Russians at their game. Say a refurbed CV with shornets and e2. India manages operational costs.

Otherwise IN did just fixed on stretched Vikrant design with the fulcrum as it's main bird. Forget the cats, those designs are out of budget. It'll have to be stobar but that's good enough for air cover and some a2g work.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby chetak » 06 Apr 2019 11:38

The US seems to be going all out to enmesh India into its core china dominance strategy as also its desperate need to somehow ensure that Indian boots hit the ground ahead of any other gora boots and, most importantly stay the bloody course. ABA refused bush and now they are back again with full force to tempt yet another govt.

what is that old adage about greeks bearing gifts?? Is it beginning to make some sense now??

If we replace other arms sources, we will pay a steep price and very soon too.

They seem especially keen to keep the IN happy and on their side by ensuring that the replacement/new acquisition assets are quickly americanised.

we are the replacement to the pakis but with one major difference in that we are expected to pay heavily for our own suborning and also (just, BTW,) allow the subsuming of India and her markets. A sort of ameriki BRI, but without the B and the R.


General Bipin Rawat Inducted Into Prestigious International Hall Of Fame At Command And General Staff College In US


Rawat, who assumed the office after retirement of General Dalbir Singh is the 27th CoAS. Hailing from the Pauri Garhwal district in Uttarakhand, Bipin Rawat’s family has been serving in the Indian Army for generations. His father Laxman Singh Rawat was Lieutenant General.

Rawat is a seasoned military wizard, whose alma mater includes National Defence Academy, Khadakwasla, Indian Military Academy, Dehradun and Defence Services Staff College, Wellington. To top them all, he possesses an MPhil in Defence Studies from Madras University. In 2011, he was awarded a Doctorate by Chaudhary Charan Singh University, for his research on military-media strategic studies.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby JTull » 06 Apr 2019 19:51

JayS wrote:Wow. The way things happen in India are incredible.


I wish someone will ask point blank the MD of Boeing Defense in India Rear Admiral Ahuja that Nation wants to know about this conflict of interest. With a camera on his face!

If he lasts till AI-21 then I'll do it myself.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Vips » 06 Apr 2019 20:03

Arun.prabhu wrote:Not going to happen. US gov will not loan a CV and purchasing it and equipping it to USN standard is cost prohibitive.

Cain Marko wrote:Frankly, I think India should reasonably consider a full blown US carrier replete with US fighters as a bulwark against China in the east provided of course the US doesn't hope for too much commercial gain from such a deal. Offer it at friendship prices. Best the Russians at their game. Say a refurbed CV with shornets and e2. India manages operational costs.

Otherwise IN did just fixed on stretched Vikrant design with the fulcrum as it's main bird. Forget the cats, those designs are out of budget. It'll have to be stobar but that's good enough for air cover and some a2g work.


A refurbed CV with old and upgraded Hornets and old E2 would be a very cost effective way for Uncle Sam to integrate India as an assured partner in the Indo pacific region. The chinese would shit bricks at India having such an equation with the US especially the implications of more such refurbed strategic and even some goldplated force multipliers coming to India in the future.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby brar_w » 06 Apr 2019 20:08

Vips wrote:
Arun.prabhu wrote:Not going to happen. US gov will not loan a CV and purchasing it and equipping it to USN standard is cost prohibitive.



A refurbed CV with old and upgraded Hornets and old E2 would be a very cost effective way for Uncle Sam to integrate India as an assured partner in the Indo pacific region. The chinese would shit bricks at India having such an equation with the US especially the implications of more such refurbed strategic and even some goldplated force multipliers coming to India in the future.


This is not going to happen and not really a very serious suggestion to be honest. The US Navy is required to maintain a set number of Aircraft Carriers by law and while they will go 1 above that number, sometime in the early to mid 2020's, they are most likely going to retain that as they can do with that capacity especially now that they are going back to the multi-carrier operations and training model. Even otherwise, selling a CVN would be just about as hard as selling a SSN or SSBN and will probably be a no starter both at the US Navy level and at the US Congress level.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Pratyush » 07 Apr 2019 09:39

The import fetish of Indians is always amusing. We just can't seem to not root for some foreign design that we love.

It's easy to do so.

But I say no more imports.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby negi » 07 Apr 2019 11:23

Massa's recognition of lot of India's military top brass will be the order of the day , post retirement they all will man one or other positions of great influence over India's arms procurement or even policy making . It will take some prudent policy making from the GOI to protect India's interests.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Singha » 07 Apr 2019 11:34

Perhaps a mandatory cooling off period esp for premature retirees in high positions to let their info and reach age out

Else we might end up as a richer pakistan in military matters and some import pasand ex generals schooling the msm how to attack drdo daily

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby MeshaVishwas » 07 Apr 2019 12:49


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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby chetak » 07 Apr 2019 18:06

Singha wrote:Perhaps a mandatory cooling off period esp for premature retirees in high positions to let their info and reach age out

Else we might end up as a richer pakistan in military matters and some import pasand ex generals schooling the msm how to attack drdo daily




Make no mistake. There is no conflict of interest. What the amerikis want, the amerikis get, for now, at least.

the amerikis have followed procedure and kept the GoI informed and the required blessings have been obtained.

The guy could have been anyone with a similar background, if not him it would have been someone else for sure. There are enough of them around. This guy also has a valid clearance from the GoI. You can bet that many of those, with a similar background, would have actively vied for the same job.

This is right in the grey zone, where the accepted norm is operating with a wink here, and a nudge there.

Lastly, services rendered and monies paid always go together. There is no conflict of interest. The right experience is always of vital importance.

What do you think happened in the BEML tatra case and countless other cases??,

were they distributing prashad after some temple darshan, do you think??

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Vips » 07 Apr 2019 19:28

negi wrote:Massa's recognition of lot of India's military top brass will be the order of the day , post retirement they all will man one or other positions of great influence over India's arms procurement or even policy making . It will take some prudent policy making from the GOI to protect India's interests.


America will do whatever it takes to counter the headstart and deep penetration that Russia has with most of the PSU's favoring Russian collaboration's.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Manish_Sharma » 07 Apr 2019 20:15

Vips wrote:
negi wrote:Massa's recognition of lot of India's military top brass will be the order of the day , post retirement they all will man one or other positions of great influence over India's arms procurement or even policy making . It will take some prudent policy making from the GOI to protect India's interests.


America will do whatever it takes to counter the headstart and deep penetration that Russia has with most of the PSU's favoring Russian collaboration's.


Russians never sent us Human rights reports against Hindus.

Russians never sanctioned us.

Russians helped with strategic platforms, which usa never has, never will.

Russians or French never will threaten and try to humiliate us with something like CAATSAW.

usa has refused dtti help with ge engines.

usa wants That WE SHOULD HAVE VISHAL SO THEY CAN COMMANDEER IT AT WILL AND OUR NAVY SHOULD FIGHT UNDER THEIR COMMAND AS UNDERLINGS. While they refuse to impart with their nuclear plants Leave alone ToT. Of course how we acquire/create nuclear propulsion isn't their headache. They're just entitled to first rights over Bharat's assets.

Russians have no objections to us having ssn ssbn but Americans actively don't want it.

Blackwell's think tank had prepared a report for USA senate that sanctions failed as Bharat didn't have much USA equipment. They need to sell and control us as their indirect colony. Russians never have such intentions.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Karan M » 07 Apr 2019 20:56

>>Blackwell's think tank had prepared a report for USA senate that sanctions failed as Bharat didn't have much USA equipment. They need to sell and control us as their indirect colony. Russians never have such intentions.

Do you have a link for this? Hadn't heard of this one!

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Manish_Sharma » 07 Apr 2019 21:06

^ will check my archives, right now too much involved in elections ...

Probably Ramana ji or Chetak ji might remember...

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Arun.prabhu » 07 Apr 2019 21:19

What long term purpose would this serve? We could spend the money building another carrier of our own and master the systemology of building and operating one - which only three or four nations have ever mastered. Uncle Sam can be our wingman in our backyard, but we have to stop expecting both the bear and Uncle Sam to be our MIC. China is not ready for a war and won’t be for another decade, if ever, seeing how things are going for them at home. Let’s use that window of opportunity instead of putting good money after bad into subsidising MIC of other nations.

Vips wrote:
Arun.prabhu wrote:Not going to happen. US gov will not loan a CV and purchasing it and equipping it to USN standard is cost prohibitive.



A refurbed CV with old and upgraded Hornets and old E2 would be a very cost effective way for Uncle Sam to integrate India as an assured partner in the Indo pacific region. The chinese would shit bricks at India having such an equation with the US especially the implications of more such refurbed strategic and even some goldplated force multipliers coming to India in the future.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby khan » 07 Apr 2019 21:29

The US is already at risk of falling below their legally required number of carriers. Why would they “give” one to anyone?

All this talk of Carrier donation is wishful thinking IMO.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/03/01/no ... ss-truman/


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