Indian Naval Aviation

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3452
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby kit » 18 Nov 2019 07:41

Manish_P wrote:
Philip wrote:Russian Blackjack strategic bombers just visited S.Africa.They carry an equal statement of any carrier showing the flag. ...


A very strong message no doubt but not equal to a carrier task force, Philip sir.

One- a carrier task force does not need a host country to base it. It can loiter in international waters as close as possible to the target area. Second, it is more difficult to hit than an airbase, especially by non-state actors. And third it has that deadly hidden second-strike element - the sub (typically nuclear powered).

You have seen how both the US and Soviet/Russian forces have used both elements


There is indeed a case for both. The immense indian landmass projecting itself into the Indian Ocean and the andaman and lakshadweep islands are literally unsinkable aircraft carriers from where very significant force projection can be done , Sea denial is thus india s strong ability and a powerful sub arm will keep the IOR off limits to any adversary.The navy's admission of the anti shipping ability of Brahmos equipped sukhois being able to sanitise the entire IOR and littoral regions is a case in point. The brahmos missile itself excels in the anti shipping role and a few of them can bring down any ship.
Having said that all this power does not equate to force projection the way a aircraft carrier fleet can do. It's just the mightiest force projection on earth , the weapons and capability second to none.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3846
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Cain Marko » 18 Nov 2019 12:02

So when does the true embrace come - Refurbed Kitty hawk with 70 odd Shornets and complete support package- all FMS. There is India's 3 carrier force. Until the homegrown Vishaal comes along, a Kitty Hawk (rechristened "VIRAAT") will do!

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3878
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby chola » 18 Nov 2019 12:41

We have to finish up the Vikrant and then begin on the Vishal. (Or negotiate for an Amreeki mothballed super carrier if such a dream can be realistically entertained.)

The second chini carrier crossed the Taiwan Strait yesterday and received its air wing.

We have just lost the dominant position in Asian naval aviation that we had held for over half a century.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11309
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Aditya_V » 18 Nov 2019 12:46

Cain Marko wrote:So when does the true embrace come - Refurbed Kitty hawk with 70 odd Shornets and complete support package- all FMS. There is India's 3 carrier force. Until the homegrown Vishaal comes along, a Kitty Hawk (rechristened "VIRAAT") will do!


We cant afford it and we still be in a mess, we have tried these type of shortcuts and it has always ended in disaster down the line. IAC-1 being our first effort will always be slower than others, better to persue sink funds and start building more.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4324
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby srai » 18 Nov 2019 17:02

^^^

1 carrier per decade is what India can probably afford. Each would cost around $15-20 billion (carrier plus air wing w/ infrastructure, weapons and lifecycle support).

2010-2020 - Vikramaditya
2020-2030 - Vikrant
2030-2040 - Vishal
.
.
.

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3452
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby kit » 18 Nov 2019 17:12

srai wrote:^^^

1 carrier per decade is what India can probably afford. Each would cost around $15-20 billion (carrier plus air wing w/ infrastructure, weapons and lifecycle support).

2010-2020 - Vikramaditya
2020-2030 - Vikrant
2030-2040 - Vishal
.
.
.


The deal is most certainly an indigenous aircraft carrier with some foreign elements like the EMALS. The aircraft would be a mix of Indian and western aircraft for the first.

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3452
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby kit » 18 Nov 2019 17:15

chola wrote:We have to finish up the Vikrant and then begin on the Vishal. (Or negotiate for an Amreeki mothballed super carrier if such a dream can be realistically entertained.)

The second chini carrier crossed the Taiwan Strait yesterday and received its air wing.

We have just lost the dominant position in Asian naval aviation that we had held for over half a century.


China has already the largest naval fleet in the world and we build and fight with what we need and not get into a measuring contest.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20156
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Philip » 20 Nov 2019 13:32

The Chinese have the US and its allies like Japan and SoKo in the Pacific to deal with.Taiwan's integration into the mainland is going to be far tougher peacefully watching the manner in whivh Hong Kong's spark of democracy is being murdered. Hence the military buildup and options.which require more CVs to counter the number of US CVs deployed against it. I would imagine that at least 5 to 6 carriers would be deployed by the USN
apart from contributions by atllies .

As I mentioned in another mil. td., if the new planned twin-engined naval fighter is designed to fit onto the lifts of our current two flat- tops, Being more potent than the 29Ks, they could serve for decades along with the carriers too.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7874
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Rakesh » 23 Nov 2019 22:04

https://twitter.com/ShobhaBJP/status/11 ... 6568674305 ---> Sub Lieutenant Shivangi of Muzaffarpur, breaks glass ceiling by getting into naval cockpit. She will be first woman pilot of Indian Navy, to fly indigenously built fixed-wing Dornier surveillance plane. Congratulations Shivangi, you are an inspiration.

Image

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7874
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Rakesh » 23 Nov 2019 22:05

Sub Lieutenant Shivangi is the first-ever woman pilot for Navy
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 053940.ece

Image

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2483
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Cybaru » 24 Nov 2019 21:21

http://www.spsnavalforces.com/news/?id=438&h=Indian-Navy-drops-HAL-Reliance-from-its-shortlist-in-the-$3-B-chopper-programme

Public Sector giant Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and its joint venture with Russian Helicopters, India-Russia Helicopters Limited (IRHL) have been dropped from the final shortlist of Indian Strategic Partnership hopefuls.


:(( :?:

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2805
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby tsarkar » 25 Nov 2019 12:16

Cybaru wrote:http://www.spsnavalforces.com/news/?id=438&h=Indian-Navy-drops-HAL-Reliance-from-its-shortlist-in-the-$3-B-chopper-programme

Public Sector giant Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and its joint venture with Russian Helicopters, India-Russia Helicopters Limited (IRHL) have been dropped from the final shortlist of Indian Strategic Partnership hopefuls.


:(( :?:


The trials of the shortlisted helicopters will take place in the "green configuration" as per existing features. The finally selected helicopter will require changes as per the requirement of the Indian Navy. For instance, of the four helicopters in the fray, only the Airbus AS565MBe has an existing military variant.


Only AS565 has a naval variant in service with Pakistan and China. Rest all need expensive Navalization. None of the four have automatic rotor folding the lack of which led to rejection of the Dhruv.

Green configuration will obviously have better performance than a full systems integration configuration. Not fair on Dhruv and I hope Defence Secretary and Raksha Mantri take notice during DAC meeting.

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4366
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby JayS » 25 Nov 2019 15:58

^^ Evaluation in green form is definite recipe for disaster. If we are to spend time and take risks of navalisation, why not just do it with ALH...?

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3878
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby chola » 25 Nov 2019 16:20

^^^ Maybe it is just a stacked deck for the Panther that the IN already wants?

A bit fishy if you ask me.

Strange to consider "green" config and then navalizing the selection. Yes, if that is the case then why shouldn't the IN consider navalizing the Dhruv as a priority.

But me thinks the IN has already decided on the AS565.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7770
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Indranil » 25 Nov 2019 21:55

Our acquisitions seem so ad hoc.

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2483
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Cybaru » 26 Nov 2019 00:28

Something is wrong in this selection.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4324
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby srai » 26 Nov 2019 03:04

The IN seems to be heading backwards when it comes to indigenizing its aviation fleet.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7770
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Indranil » 26 Nov 2019 06:55

Assuming this report is correct. It seems like a case where IN doesn't want HAL to participate. So,
1. "Green helicopters" are allowed, but not one from HAL.
2. Ka-226T is allowed. But not through a collaboration between HAL and Russian Helicopters, but through a collaboration between Adani and Russian helicopters.

Point 1. is still okay. HAL has no experience with folding rotors. Navy has given up. yada, yada, yada.... But, point 2. really stinks!!!! I don't remember a case where a product is allowed, but not through established players, but complete novices!!!! Wait, I remember, it was in Rafale's case. But at least there Dassault did not want to collaborate with HAL. In this case, Russian Helicopters prefers HAL as their Indian partner. Why wouldn't it?!!! Upfront costs are much less. Hence this forced "gentleman's handshake".

It seems clear to me. Ka-226T don't have a chance. It is between the other two.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7226
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby nachiket » 26 Nov 2019 07:06

The trials of the shortlisted helicopters will take place in the "green configuration" as per existing features. The finally selected helicopter will require changes as per the requirement of the Indian Navy. For instance, of the four helicopters in the fray, only the Airbus AS565MBe has an existing military variant.

I'm sorry but this stinks to high heaven and reminds one of the original Army LUH deal where the Eurocopter Fennec was chosen and then disqualified once irregularities were discovered.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20156
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Philip » 26 Nov 2019 11:59

Babudom of the MOD at its worst. Kamov is supposed to have a naval version of the KA-226.It would make cost-effective sense to seriously consider it as the IA has already chosen it to be built at home. It's only a light utility helo requirement with limited mil. capability like the Chetak/All helos. The other contenders are also decent ones.Thr choice should be strictly on merit and cost.Finding a partner to build them at home is the OEM's choice as it impinges on the cost.How on earth can the MOD decide who the right partner should be when it can't even make a paper plane? When it came to the Rafale, did HAL get the nod as partner even though Dassault almost clinched an agreement with it? No.
Looks like skullduggery at work.

The serious ASW biz will be done by the 110+ Sea King replacements and Sikorsky helos to be acquired from the US. This is the vital acquisition.Let''s hope this deal will not be plagued by MOD monkey biz.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7770
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Indranil » 26 Nov 2019 12:23

Where has the MoD babu come into the picture?

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2483
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Cybaru » 26 Nov 2019 13:06

Modi should order the 24 order of MH 60R so that there are no funds for this rubbish. HAL needs to be given this order for 111 NUH. END OF STORY!

mahadevbhu
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 18
Joined: 28 Oct 2019 19:47

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby mahadevbhu » 26 Nov 2019 13:21

chola wrote:We have to finish up the Vikrant and then begin on the Vishal. (Or negotiate for an Amreeki mothballed super carrier if such a dream can be realistically entertained.)

The second chini carrier crossed the Taiwan Strait yesterday and received its air wing.

We have just lost the dominant position in Asian naval aviation that we had held for over half a century.


There is still hope. The Indian navy has vastly better experience in actually operating and fighting with the weapons that it has, as compared to the Chinese Navy.

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2483
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Cybaru » 27 Nov 2019 03:40


Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2143
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Vivek K » 27 Nov 2019 21:43

mahadevbhu wrote:
chola wrote:.......

We have just lost the dominant position in Asian naval aviation that we had held for over half a century.


There is still hope. The Indian navy has vastly better experience in actually operating and fighting with the weapons that it has, as compared to the Chinese Navy.

How long can one hide behind that belief? Till one is tested or shit hits the roof? The problem with that statement is all the best experience will not help if one carrier is facing off against three. In one vs one, the statement above holds good but in 1 vs 2 ......

So I would recommend that we stop making such statements and actually support rapid capability enhancement with a re-structuring of shipyards as necessary.

Nikhil T
BRFite
Posts: 1150
Joined: 09 Nov 2008 06:48
Location: RAW HQ, Lodhi Road

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Nikhil T » 28 Nov 2019 00:27

+1 to Vivek's comments. We risk falling into the Paki trap of criminally underestimating the adversary's capabilities. E.g. a Pak soldier == 10 rice eating Endian soldiers. When China churns out DDG/FFG ships, we claim that they don't have the trained crews to man them. Well, how hard is it for a Navy that is literally pouring billions into ships to build a training academy? Surely, PLAN is not stupid to build these complex, expensive ships and then realize that they don't have trained crews to run them! For some reason, we still claim INS Ezhimala as "Asia's largest naval academy". That can't possibly be true any more.

fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3097
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby fanne » 28 Nov 2019 01:21

plus they have shown before (as in Olympics), they can create the best in world class athletes with no history of previously excelling in these areas. They didn't reach here by being stupid.

Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2236
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Vips » 28 Nov 2019 04:19

Indian Navy is commissioning on Nov 29th its Sixth Dornier aircraft Squadron at Porbandar to patrol the Northern Arabian Sea area (INS 314 Squadron with nickname Raptors).

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20156
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Philip » 28 Nov 2019 05:44

Can HAL at breakneck speed come out with a naval version of its new LUH, auto- folding rotors et al? It should've planned for a naval variant from the beginning
given the large requirement.Dhruv is too large and its rotor folding gear cumbersome.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7226
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby nachiket » 28 Nov 2019 06:10

LUH will be rejected for having a single engine.

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2483
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Cybaru » 28 Nov 2019 06:36

Dhruv has the same new folding mechanism everyone has. What's cumbersome about it?

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20156
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Philip » 28 Nov 2019 06:46

The Dhruv with folding rotors, non-auto supposedly ( correct me if wrong), is still a work in progress.On smaller ships , frigates and corvettes, it is more hazardous recovering on deck and transferring the helo to hangar. On larger warships like carriers and major surface combatants designed to carry SK class multi-role helos, no problem.The LUH requirement is for an All-3/ Chetak sized bird .The Dhruv is larger requiring larger hangars, etc.It will also be more expensive. A naval variant of the LUH should've been planned for.It could've been flying now along with the IAF/ IA version.

PS:Dhruv is in the same class as the Westland 149 Lynx ( retd.)/ Super Lynx/ Wildcat multi-role helo.MTO for the latter is 6000kg, Dhruv slightly less.Dimensions around the same size.Used by the RN and British forces extensively, aboard their smaller- sized frigates and destroyers. We have preferred larger more capable Sea Kings for our FFG/ DDGs given our greater operational requirements in the IOR.The RN uses its SKs, now EH-101 Merlins, superior to SKs aboard its carriers and larger warships. Where heli-decks and hangars are larger, Dhruv could fit the bill, but for the LUH requirement it appears to be too large. The IN however is using the Dhruv in limited number.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Indrajit, shobhits89 and 44 guests