Indian Naval Aviation

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby basant » 01 Aug 2020 22:30

=== deleted ===
admin note - please refer to the SPP at https://mod.gov.in/dod/sites/default/files/draftdppnew200320c_0.pdf before firing away on your keyboard

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby abhik » 02 Aug 2020 01:33

What is so sacrosanct about SPP, or for that matter DPP? There is little logic or common sense with the way our defence procurement systems works, and that includes the SPPs. If the purpose is to bring new players why not take a step back, look at the bigger picture and start fixing the larger issues like:
> Stop importing stuff that we already have the capability to make ourselves (make the pie bigger for every one).
> Actually fund private sector (and for that matter DPSU) R&D (What happened to Make 1?).
> Give the private sector a level playing field (including opportunity to co develop and manufacture DRDO designs).
Instead we have some more pages added to our maya jaal of procurement policy that can benefit only large business houses and foreign arms companies (that too sometimes at the cost of existing local solutions).

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Rakesh » 02 Aug 2020 02:50

India To Get Urgent Delivery of Submarine-Hunting MH-60R Helicopters
https://eurasiantimes.com/india-to-get- ... licopters/
28 July 2020

The US-made submarine-hunting helicopter, – MH 60-R are set to be delivered to India, early next year. The helicopters are expected to form the front-end of tracking the growing presence of Chinese submarines in the Indian Ocean.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby suryag » 02 Aug 2020 03:02

Abhik Sir Am not sure you understand and appreciate the importance of a consistent and transparent procurement policy. The DPP has been made with a specific intent to ensure things proceed in an orderly manner. In the past, the bureaucrats would sit on files as signing on anything would simply invite an enquiry after 10-15 years long after retirement. Do all of us a favour and instead of this "islam khatre mein hai" kind of argument for every import or private sector involvement read through the DPP draft and let us all know where we can do better. That in my opinion would be constructive. Please bear in mind we all should understand that we probably understand only about 1% of the issue, Neither HAL nor IN puts all the details in open for us to arrive at a conclusion.

Please refer to pages 296 onwards

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Rakesh » 04 Aug 2020 21:43

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/12 ... 29344?s=20 ---> Delighted to hear Commodore Ajay Daniel Theophilus took charge yesterday as Commanding Officer of INS Hansa, the Indian Navy’s premier air station in Goa. Had met him a decade ago when he was inaugural CO of the 1st MiG-29K squadron ‘Black Panthers’ there.

Image

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Rakesh » 20 Aug 2020 02:14

Click on the link below to read the rest of the twitter thread....

https://twitter.com/SaurabhJoshi/status ... 75520?s=20 ---> Per information gathered, appears the Super Hornet has jumped a ski jump. US Navy and Boeing are running F/A-18 Super Hornet tests from a ski jump at Naval Air Station Patuxent River to demonstrate it is STOBAR compliant for the Indian Navy.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Rakesh » 20 Aug 2020 02:15

https://twitter.com/zone5aviation/statu ... 69441?s=20 ---> Super Hornet just went front runner. More details awaited but this is the first of the non-STOBAR contenders for the Indian Navy carrier fighter requirement to test a ski-jump launch on their own dime.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Barath » 20 Aug 2020 13:20

Still need to figure out other parameters such as payload at launch. Plus fitment onto the lift. But it's a development. Ball is in dassault's court

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby MeshaVishwas » 20 Aug 2020 15:19

F/A-18 Super Hornet Is Now Undergoing Ski Jump Launch Trials For The Indian Navy- The War Zone
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... ndian-navy

Boeing has been flying an F/A-18E/F Super Hornet off a ground-based ski jump at Naval Air Station Patuxent River in Maryland. This is part of a demonstration effort for the Indian Navy to show that the aircraft can operate from short take-off but arrested recovery configured (STOBAR) aircraft carriers, such as the INS Vikramaditya and the future INS Vikrant.

Indian defense analyst Saurabh Joshi was among the first to reveal the flight testing in a series of tweets on Aug. 19, 2020. The Chicago-headquartered plane maker subsequently confirmed that this ski jump demonstration program is presently taking place at Patuxent River, though it is not clear when exactly it began. The naval air station has a ground-based ski jump that it used during testing of the short and vertical takeoff and landing capable F-35B variant of the Joint Strike Fighter.

"Boeing and the U.S. Navy are in the beginning phases of operating an F/A-18 Super Hornet from a ski jump at Naval Air Station Patuxent River to demonstrate it is STOBAR compliant for the Indian Navy," Justin Gibson, a Boeing spokesperson, told The War Zone. "Boeing completed extensive analysis and more than 150 flight simulations on F/A-18 compatibility with Indian aircraft carriers, and while our assessment has shown the Block III Super Hornet is very capable of launching off a ski jump, this is the next step in demonstrating that capability. More details will be released upon the conclusion of the test demonstration."

Image
USN
A US Navy F/A-18E Super Hornet about to takeoff from an American supercarrier using a catapult.

The company had previously announced plans to begin this ski jump flight test program in February. It had first disclosed that it was doing simulation work on the Super Hornet's ability to operate from a STOBAR carrier in 2017.

"We've done a lot of simulation work with the Indian Navy to better understand their requirements and we fill comfortable that the Super Hornet can operate from all their carriers, both the ones fielded today and the ones in the future," Dan Gillian, Vice President of the Super Hornet program, said in an interview with Indian defense news and analysis site LiveFist in 2017. "We think we can move around the deck, be very mission capable with a relevant weapons load-out and fuel load-out to give the Navy what they need... The Super Hornet as built today can operate from Indian carriers."

McDonnell Douglas, which developed the original F/A-18 Hornet and was subsequently acquired by Boeing, had also previously conducted ski jump tests with that aircraft at the tail end of the Cold War. That testing showed that with as little as a nine-degree incline, the total required takeoff roll for the Hornet could be cut in half, though it's unclear what the jet's gross weight had to be to achieve this performance. Ski jumps generally increase the takeoff performance of combat jets in the absence of catapults and also provide an added margin of safety.

Image
PUBLIC DOMAIN
An F/A-18A Hornet takes off from a ground-based ski jump during a test in the late 1980s.

Since at least 2016, the Indian Navy has been working to acquire a fleet of at least 57 new fighter jets to complement its existing MiG-29K Fulcrums under the Multi-Role Carrier-Borne Fighter (MRCBF) program. There have been numerous reports over the years that the Indians have been disappointed in the performance of their navalized Fulcrums.

The Super Hornet is now competing against the MiG-29K, as well as the naval version of the French-made Dassault Rafale and a variant of the Swedish Gripen. The Indian Air Force notably took delivery of the first of its land-based Rafale variants last month.

The Indian Navy had also previously rejected plans for a carrier-based version of the domestically designed Tejas, with complaints that the design was overweight, though the development of that aircraft has continued, since then. In January, the prototype landed on and took off from the INS Vikramaditya for the first time.

Being able to operate from a STOBAR carrier is a key requirement for the Indian Navy, which presently only has the one carrier, the INS Vikramaditya, which is in the configuration. A second STOBAR-configured flattop, the future INS Vikrant, and indigenous design, is also under construction.

Image
INDIAN NAVY
The future INS Vikrant in 2015.

The Indian government has expressed interest in acquiring a catapult assisted takeoff but arrested recovery (CATOBAR) carrier in the past. Last year it emerged that BAE Systems had proposed a design based on the U.K. Royal Navy's Queen Elizabeth class. The HMS Queen Elizabeth and her sister ship the HMS Prince of Wales are both short-take off and vertical landing (STOVL) types with ski jumps, but no arresting system. It's not clear whether the ship that BAE pitched to the Indians is STOBAR or CATOBAR derivative. There were CATOBAR variants of the Queen Elizabeth design among the initial proposals to the Royal Navy.

What is clear is that the Indians have plans to expand their carrier fleets, which would also require additional carrier-based aircraft. Proving that the Super Hornet, which is already CATOBAR capable, is also able to fly from STOBAR carriers could give it an advantage in the competition as India would not necessarily need to acquire multiple types to operate from different types of carriers in the future. The MiG-29K, for instance, cannot fly from CATOBAR carriers, for instance.

The Super Hornet, in its latest advanced Block III configuration, which you can read more about in detail in this past War Zone piece, is also in the running for a separate Indian Air Force fighter jet mega-contract, which is looking to acquire 126 new fighters for that service. A deal with the Indian Navy could further tip the scales toward the F/A-18E/F due to the cost benefits that India could realize from logistics, infrastructure, and supply chain commonality.

Whatever happens, it will very exciting to learn more about how the Super Hornet has been faring in these ski jump tests at Patuxent River.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Cain Marko » 21 Aug 2020 09:35

Rakesh wrote:Click on the link below to read the rest of the twitter thread....

https://twitter.com/SaurabhJoshi/status ... 75520?s=20 ---> Per information gathered, appears the Super Hornet has jumped a ski jump. US Navy and Boeing are running F/A-18 Super Hornet tests from a ski jump at Naval Air Station Patuxent River to demonstrate it is STOBAR compliant for the Indian Navy.

Hmm. Wonder if the idea is to buy the shornet and offload the fulcrums to the IAF? Where does the tedbf for in here?

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby brar_w » 21 Aug 2020 21:31

Cain Marko wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Click on the link below to read the rest of the twitter thread....

https://twitter.com/SaurabhJoshi/status ... 75520?s=20 ---> Per information gathered, appears the Super Hornet has jumped a ski jump. US Navy and Boeing are running F/A-18 Super Hornet tests from a ski jump at Naval Air Station Patuxent River to demonstrate it is STOBAR compliant for the Indian Navy.

Hmm. Wonder if the idea is to buy the shornet and offload the fulcrums to the IAF? Where does the tedbf for in here?


It takes a long time to develop and operationalize a clean sheet naval multi-role fighter. So these options may not be mutually exclusive.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby nachiket » 21 Aug 2020 23:02

The possibility of funds being found for buying F-18's for the Navy right now is remote. This has nothing to do with any changes from our side. This is just Boeing making sure their product has already demonstrated the required performance if it ever comes to that (not just for IN but other possible programs elsewhere as well). Getting a leg up on Dassault.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby VKumar » 22 Aug 2020 01:11

IN should invest in long range seaplanes for SAR and to move men and materials rapidly between A&N.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Barath » 22 Aug 2020 04:43

Shin maywa Us-2 procurement is going nowhere fast. Always wondered whether it made more sense for the coast guard. .

In any case a land based cargo and logistics plane ought to be able to move cargo faster, ship based cargo move large quantityof men and materials faster, p8 is already established for ASW and MPA, and choppers help in SAR near ship and shore.

Were you thinking of puddle jumpers/floatplane ?

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Kakkaji » 22 Aug 2020 07:31

nachiket wrote:The possibility of funds being found for buying F-18's for the Navy right now is remote. This has nothing to do with any changes from our side. This is just Boeing making sure their product has already demonstrated the required performance if it ever comes to that (not just for IN but other possible programs elsewhere as well). Getting a leg up on Dassault.


Even if suitability for ski jump is demonstrated, the 'fitment into lifts' remains as an issue on both Vikramaditya and Vikrant. Tilting the plane inside the lifts does not sound practical to me.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby brar_w » 22 Aug 2020 09:15

Kakkaji wrote:
nachiket wrote:The possibility of funds being found for buying F-18's for the Navy right now is remote. This has nothing to do with any changes from our side. This is just Boeing making sure their product has already demonstrated the required performance if it ever comes to that (not just for IN but other possible programs elsewhere as well). Getting a leg up on Dassault.


Even if suitability for ski jump is demonstrated, the 'fitment into lifts' remains as an issue on both Vikramaditya and Vikrant. Tilting the plane inside the lifts does not sound practical to me.


Boeing has a solution that it thinks is, at the very least, viable enough for it to be an acceptable from a consideration at least . They wouldn’t spend their own money to physically demonstrate their capability if they think that their lift solution was an “operational” non starter and impractical from an at sea deployment of sortie gen rate perspective. They are stacked in their company with naval aviators and subject matter experts so it’s a safe bet that they’ve got a proposal that works reasonably well for them to be considered a viable offer should the IN want to proceed further.
Last edited by brar_w on 22 Aug 2020 09:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby k prasad » 22 Aug 2020 09:29

Both Rafale and F-18 are slightly shorter in length than Mig-29K,but significantly wider... Rafale's wingspan is 33 ft, which is very similar to the F-18 folded span at 32'6". The Mig's folded span is 5.9 m or 19 ft.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby brar_w » 22 Aug 2020 09:49

^^ Rafale's wingspan is 35.7 ft (10.9 meters) as per Dassault.

https://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/de ... ance-data/

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby sankum » 22 Aug 2020 10:20

k prasad wrote:Both Rafale and F-18 are slightly shorter in length than Mig-29K,but significantly wider... Rafale's wingspan is 33 ft, which is very similar to the F-18 folded span at 32'6". The Mig's folded span is 5.9 m or 19 ft.

Wrong ,as far as I remember it is 7.8m. 5.9m was a proposal but was not implemented.

INS Vikrant has 10 m width lift and turntable in the hanger which can accommodate Superhornet according to news report by tilting the aircraft but not Rafale for which the proposal of removal wing tips is there while INS Vikramaditya has 9.6m and 8.6m width lift.

Present 42 Mig 29 k can give 30 available fighter if 70 % availability. Both carriers carry 20 fighters as standard component.

If by 2032 in 10 year period if INS VIKRANT is commisioned by 2022. Both will be available only for 3.5 years as carrier remains 1/3 rd of their life in dock. The government will not spend $5b on 36 Superhornet and will wait for TEDBF by 2032.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby sankum » 22 Aug 2020 10:40

It is better to buy 15 more Mig 29k for $600 m as stopgap till 2032.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby k prasad » 22 Aug 2020 10:50

brar_w wrote:^^ Rafale's wingspan is 35.7 ft (10.9 meters) as per Dassault.

https://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/de ... ance-data/


My bad... i converted 10.9 m to ft in my head and got it wrong.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby LakshmanPST » 22 Aug 2020 10:58

F/A 18:-
Full Wingspan:- 13.62m
Folded Wingspan:- 9.32m
-
MIG29K:-
Full Wingspan:- 11.9m
Folded Wingspan:- 7.8m
-
Rafale M:-
Wingspan:- 10.9m

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby sankum » 22 Aug 2020 11:03

SuperHornet or Rafale are both not compatible with both Indian carriers as Mig29k or TEDBF and is exercise in futility just as buying NUH for $3b when a naval version of Dhruv can be developed.
I don't understand why such grand plans by lobbies when money can be well spent elsewhere.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby sankum » 22 Aug 2020 11:18

For 3.5 years a requirement of 40 fighters at sea will be available when both carriers are at sea in 2022-32 timeperiod and modified proposal of 36 next generation fighter for $5b for future IAC2 which will cost $6b more which is unlikely to be sanctioned.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Cain Marko » 22 Aug 2020 11:45

nachiket wrote:The possibility of funds being found for buying F-18's for the Navy right now is remote. This has nothing to do with any changes from our side. This is just Boeing making sure their product has already demonstrated the required performance if it ever comes to that (not just for IN but other possible programs elsewhere as well). Getting a leg up on Dassault.

sankum wrote:SuperHornet or Rafale are both not compatible with both Indian carriers as Mig29k or TEDBF and is exercise in futility just as buying NUH for $3b when a naval version of Dhruv can be developed.
I don't understand why such grand plans by lobbies when money can be well spent elsewhere.

Maybe Boeing knows something we don't? What's the point of spending resources doing all this testing if they think nothing will come out of it? Wouldn't surprise me if with the current LAC standoff, Desh is about to embark on a final but major buying spree - phoren maal for sure. Although with decent inputs into desi industry.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby nash » 22 Aug 2020 20:39

sankum wrote:Wrong ,as far as I remember it is 7.8m. 5.9m was a proposal but was not implemented.

INS Vikrant has 10 m width lift and turntable in the hanger which can accommodate Superhornet according to news report by tilting the aircraft but not Rafale for which the proposal of removal wing tips is there while INS Vikramaditya has 9.6m and 8.6m width lift.

Present 42 Mig 29 k can give 30 available fighter if 70 % availability. Both carriers carry 20 fighters as standard component.

If by 2032 in 10 year period if INS VIKRANT is commisioned by 2022. Both will be available only for 3.5 years as carrier remains 1/3 rd of their life in dock. The government will not spend $5b on 36 Superhornet and will wait for TEDBF by 2032.


Does anyone know how much will be the reduction of Rafale width if we remove those wing tips.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby sankum » 22 Aug 2020 21:20

Just news reports. It is not practical.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby brar_w » 23 Aug 2020 03:18

Cain Marko wrote:Maybe Boeing knows something we don't? What's the point of spending resources doing all this testing if they think nothing will come out of it?.


There is definitely something that Boeing knows that we do not. They have an ear out and talk with the customer. We only read what is reported. They also talk with the US Navy that talks with the IN and the MOD. Of course this doesn't mean that they will only undertake such a campaign if they feel that the program selection is imminent. The threshold would have been fairly low as the cost to demonstrate this capability is likely quite low. Hourly test aircraft reimbursement rates for the Super Hornet are around $15-$18K per hour. Lower still if they use their own aircraft. Similarly, facility reimbursement rates will probably not be any more than that and can easily be waived if the USN is involved and has determined that it is something that it is doing to support a potential government to government sale in the future. No one is creating a facility for this which would be the expensive bit. NAVAIR in the US already maintains a ski jump and the associated test instrumentation and engineering support. Boeing is just tapping into it.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Aditya_V » 23 Aug 2020 10:51

sankum wrote:It is better to buy 15 more Mig 29k for $600 m as stopgap till 2032.

The only fly in the ointment is id behind the scenes, the US is tying some of its fighter jet purchases for Jet engine tech both direct supply and through 3rd parties like UK.

These things will not be disclosed by their Chamcha Gora and Indian media.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Rakesh » 23 Aug 2020 18:27

No viable jet engine tech will come from the US or any other country. Assembly of a jet engine or the cold section, but nothing more.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Aditya_V » 23 Aug 2020 19:10

I am talking about supply of GE 404 GE 414 and some supply of tech through 3rd party UK, all our Indian Fighter programmes are tied to these given our level of tech.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Rakesh » 24 Aug 2020 19:19

What supply of tech from 3rd party UK?

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Aditya_V » 24 Aug 2020 19:25

Some Rolls Royce Engine stuff speculated on the net. Hypotecial question. The GE 404 engines have served our LCA programme very very well, will the US supply the engines required, Hot parts spares etc. without a Quid pro Quo??

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby brar_w » 24 Aug 2020 19:32

Aditya_V wrote:Some Rolls Royce Engine stuff speculated on the net. Hypotecial question. The GE 404 engines have served our LCA programme very very well, will the US supply the engines required, Hot parts spares etc. without a Quid pro Quo??


Why wouldn't it allow GE to supply its engine and associated PBL and spares as per the contract it has already signed? The MOD is already buying the F404 and has been for years. More orders will come. Same applies to the Swedes, South Koreans, and all others using this engine for domestic application. There is no government owned or government controlled IP that is being bargained over here. It is a deal to sell the engine, and to support it over time. Local assembly likewise does not involve any deep IP negotiations unless one is going deeper into component production which does not appear to be under negotiation. So in effect the "quid pro quo" here is the $$ that the MOD pays for the engines and support.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby dinesh_kimar » 25 Aug 2020 00:20

See, during the 1965 War, both sides were subjected to a weapons embargo by the USA and UK.

Spares for Rolls Royce Engines (UK) and P&W / Orenda engines (USA / Canada) were held up.

Our Delhi Class Destroyer Launch was held up due to negotiations of GE LM2500 engines by a few months. Need I say anything about US Pressure on ISRO Cryogenic engine programme ?

Kargil required the US LGBs and lack of a Weapon Locating Radar was critically felt.

So yes, if we look closely at our past, Khan always has a sensor, an engine or a computer which is critically needed by our boys.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby John » 25 Aug 2020 15:14

dinesh_kimar wrote:Our Delhi Class Destroyer Launch was held up due to negotiations of GE LM2500 engines by a few months. Need I say anything about US Pressure on ISRO Cryogenic engine programme ?

The Shivalik Frigate not Delhi were held up and it was not due to negotiations but rather new US administration (Obama) wanted GE to stop all work until it completes a review of these deals for a given list of countries.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Aditya_V » 25 Aug 2020 15:24

Precisely, So going by GOTUS or other arms suppliers past record if we are going to get something valuable like Engines, there will be definitely a quid pro quo and could very well be buy 18 FA 18 Super hornets at say USD 2.5- 3 Billion plus weapons and training and PBL.

While the Obama Admin reviewed that deal we just ordered 10-C-17, 8 C-130 and 8 -P8I's- all useful no doubt but at a price.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby brar_w » 25 Aug 2020 17:47

Aditya_V wrote:Precisely, So going by GOTUS or other arms suppliers past record if we are going to get something valuable like Engines, there will be definitely a quid pro quo and could very well be buy 18 FA 18 Super hornets at say USD 2.5- 3 Billion plus weapons and training and PBL.

While the Obama Admin reviewed that deal we just ordered 10-C-17, 8 C-130 and 8 -P8I's- all useful no doubt but at a price.


I think one can go down a rabbit hole if one were just trying to find something that fits one's own narrative. Under such a deal, everything the MOD ever buys from the US, whether it is useful on its own merit or not, can just easily be tied to the GE-404/414 engine. This is true of everything that was purchased while the engines were being negotiated, and will be true in perpetuity or at least until the last GE engine is acquired sometime in the 2030's. Of course there is no credible evidence to back it up.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby JTull » 27 Aug 2020 03:39

Aditya_V wrote:Precisely, So going by GOTUS or other arms suppliers past record if we are going to get something valuable like Engines, there will be definitely a quid pro quo and could very well be buy 18 FA 18 Super hornets at say USD 2.5- 3 Billion plus weapons and training and PBL.

While the Obama Admin reviewed that deal we just ordered 10-C-17, 8 C-130 and 8 -P8I's- all useful no doubt but at a price.


If Biden comes to power, we should expect supplier issues for all these.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby ramana » 29 Aug 2020 05:25

Anyone know the senior three officers in naval aviation branch?


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